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Regarding CVBs

Ragnar
Posts: 1,658
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1/24/2014 9:43:10 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
As the instigator may set special voting rules on their debates, and there are beginning to be a number of people wishing for the return of CVBs; why do the users in question not set their allowance as a special rule?

This is not to say cease requesting change, however it is to say "be the change that you wish to see" [1].

[1] Mahatma Gandhi
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Ragnar
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1/24/2014 6:34:55 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
The first statement is true.
The second statement is BS.
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Zaradi
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1/24/2014 7:05:11 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
If the CVB's just get reported anyway, then it defeats the purpose of CVBing in the first place.
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Ragnar
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1/24/2014 7:15:12 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
The validity of the reports, is what gets acted upon; not how rejected anyone's stalker feels.

A debate with the no score rule, would (in all likelihood) have votes with solid RFD deleted if they assign numerical scores. Under a debate where the instigator sets the special rule of allowing CVBs, there would be no reason to delete them (at least until such a time as the vote they are countering is removed by staff or the original voter).
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TUF
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1/25/2014 2:24:39 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/24/2014 9:43:10 AM, Ragnar wrote:
As the instigator may set special voting rules on their debates, and there are beginning to be a number of people wishing for the return of CVBs; why do the users in question not set their allowance as a special rule?

This is not to say cease requesting change, however it is to say "be the change that you wish to see" [1].

[1] Mahatma Gandhi

This happened in yraelz and phantoms debate and kind of threw things out of whack so I am not sure.
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2-D
Posts: 226
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1/25/2014 8:04:34 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/24/2014 7:15:12 PM, Ragnar wrote:
The validity of the reports, is what gets acted upon; not how rejected anyone's stalker feels.

A debate with the no score rule, would (in all likelihood) have votes with solid RFD deleted if they assign numerical scores. Under a debate where the instigator sets the special rule of allowing CVBs, there would be no reason to delete them (at least until such a time as the vote they are countering is removed by staff or the original voter).

Your assumptions are not warranted.

Look, I saw the stated vote-bomb rule and I thought it was fair to use it in context. I'm open to any feedback if you disagree. I'm still fairly new and I know you have a lot of votes under your belt. Your perspective here could be useful in teaching me to vote better.
MassiveDump
Posts: 3,423
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1/26/2014 11:48:55 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/24/2014 7:05:11 PM, Zaradi wrote:
If the CVB's just get reported anyway, then it defeats the purpose of CVBing in the first place.

So... mods shouldn't remove cvb votes? Right?
Zaradi
Posts: 14,125
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1/26/2014 12:43:18 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/26/2014 11:48:55 AM, MassiveDump wrote:
At 1/24/2014 7:05:11 PM, Zaradi wrote:
If the CVB's just get reported anyway, then it defeats the purpose of CVBing in the first place.

So... mods shouldn't remove cvb votes? Right?

Nope. Not at all. You're wrong in every sense of the word.

/sarcasm
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lannan13
Posts: 23,102
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1/26/2014 1:46:56 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/24/2014 11:00:15 AM, zyxwvutsrqponmlkjihgfedcb wrote:
Because the counter vote-bombs will be reported and the user will be banned for their violation.

That makes no sense. The person who vote bombs the debate should be punished not the CVBer.
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2-D
Posts: 226
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1/26/2014 5:45:33 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I could go either way; I don't have a strong opinion on this. I don't see how a CVB would be different than another vote. If I saw a CVB that I thought was used incorrectly I would just report it.
Ragnar
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1/26/2014 9:22:56 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/25/2014 2:24:39 AM, TUF wrote:
This happened in yraelz and phantoms debate and kind of threw things out of whack so I am not sure.

Apparently a previous debate already tried it, and it did not work out. Idea dropped.
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yay842
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1/26/2014 10:31:41 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/24/2014 9:43:10 AM, Ragnar wrote:
As the instigator may set special voting rules on their debates, and there are beginning to be a number of people wishing for the return of CVBs; why do the users in question not set their allowance as a special rule?

This is not to say cease requesting change, however it is to say "be the change that you wish to see in the world" [1].

[1] Mahatma Gandhi

fixed
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2-D
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1/26/2014 11:03:42 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/26/2014 9:22:56 PM, Ragnar wrote:
At 1/25/2014 2:24:39 AM, TUF wrote:
This happened in yraelz and phantoms debate and kind of threw things out of whack so I am not sure.

Apparently a previous debate already tried it, and it did not work out. Idea dropped.

I don't agree that a single debate should resolve an issue that you have said a growing number of members are contesting. It was a stated rule in that case and you are opposed to a general rule.

I'm missing the history here and I don't have your voting record. Could you elaborate on the problems caused by CVBs in the past?
Ragnar
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1/26/2014 11:42:33 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/26/2014 11:03:42 PM, 2-D wrote:
At 1/26/2014 9:22:56 PM, Ragnar wrote:
At 1/25/2014 2:24:39 AM, TUF wrote:
This happened in yraelz and phantoms debate and kind of threw things out of whack so I am not sure.

Apparently a previous debate already tried it, and it did not work out. Idea dropped.

I don't agree that a single debate should resolve an issue that you have said a growing number of members are contesting. It was a stated rule in that case and you are opposed to a general rule.

I'm missing the history here and I don't have your voting record. Could you elaborate on the problems caused by CVBs in the past?

I am not opposed to the general rule, my suggestion was until such time as a rule change happens; those who liked the old system should simply use it was a special rule in their own debates.

This is not to say cease requesting change, however it is to say "be the change that you wish to see in the world" [1].

Problems caused by CVBs... Well there were the CCCCCVBs, fluff votes (they were actually a little more blatant back then, with RFDs along to lines of "I dislike that anyone voted for the other side, so I'm voting and countering unstated votes I disagree with"), of course CVBing legit votes to disguise vote-bombing.
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2-D
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1/27/2014 12:14:28 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/26/2014 11:42:33 PM, Ragnar wrote:
At 1/26/2014 11:03:42 PM, 2-D wrote:
At 1/26/2014 9:22:56 PM, Ragnar wrote:
At 1/25/2014 2:24:39 AM, TUF wrote:
This happened in yraelz and phantoms debate and kind of threw things out of whack so I am not sure.

Apparently a previous debate already tried it, and it did not work out. Idea dropped.

I don't agree that a single debate should resolve an issue that you have said a growing number of members are contesting. It was a stated rule in that case and you are opposed to a general rule.

I'm missing the history here and I don't have your voting record. Could you elaborate on the problems caused by CVBs in the past?

I am not opposed to the general rule, my suggestion was until such time as a rule change happens; those who liked the old system should simply use it was a special rule in their own debates.

Ok, I don't know how these decisions are made or in what time frame.

This is not to say cease requesting change, however it is to say "be the change that you wish to see in the world" [1].

Problems caused by CVBs... Well there were the CCCCCVBs, fluff votes (they were actually a little more blatant back then, with RFDs along to lines of "I dislike that anyone voted for the other side, so I'm voting and countering unstated votes I disagree with"), of course CVBing legit votes to disguise vote-bombing.

CCCCCVBs sound difficult to deal with but you could trace them back to the original counter and delete all previous. Still, that sounds like a lot of trouble for mods. Fluff votes would be easy to spot and report. Countering legit votes to disguise a vote-bomb would be more difficult to spot. If it was my debate I would be motivated to find a good reason to object and report a CVB that was unclear and I'm sure other members would be as well.

Well anyway, I don't really have a strong Pro case in mind right now so it would be interesting to hear from someone who does. It sounds like members in support could use a stated CVB rule to test this out.
RoyLatham
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1/27/2014 5:31:53 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/24/2014 7:15:12 PM, Ragnar wrote:
The validity of the reports, is what gets acted upon; not how rejected anyone's stalker feels.

A debate with the no score rule, would (in all likelihood) have votes with solid RFD deleted if they assign numerical scores. Under a debate where the instigator sets the special rule of allowing CVBs, there would be no reason to delete them (at least until such a time as the vote they are countering is removed by staff or the original voter).

Debaters can set conditions for a debate to which an opponent voluntarily agrees by accepting the debate. However, I don't think a debater should have any authority to bind voters. The voters are not voluntarily agreeing to the conditions, the idea is that they can be imposed. If both debaters agree to the voting suggestion, then it's fair for voters to choose to go along, but it's not a vote bomb to fail to agree.

I've seen the condition "Spelling and grammar won't count in this debate." Then one of the debaters proceeds to be incomprehensible due to poor spelling and grammar. S&G is there for the benefit of the debate readers more than the participants.

Any number of ridiculous voting rules could be imposed by the debaters if such were allowed as binding.