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DDO should offer non-binary gender options

kbub
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2/3/2014 8:40:40 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Hi!
I'd like to talk about gender on DDO (Debate.org), particularly some problems with gender profile options.

Part 1: Forced Gender Performance
A debater on DDO is able to hide virtually all of her personal information except for gender. I find this very strange, since gender is utterly and completely irrelevant to one's debates. Why force debaters to show this information?

Seeing as we live in a patriarchal society (and looking at the topics) it is clear that sexism is rampant in DDO, just as it does in live debates. One's gender performance shouldn't have to be a part of one's debates.

If the reason why gender is forced to be shown is for the convenience of debaters in choosing pronouns ("he," "she," etc.), then why not make it simply optional?

Part 2: More than a binary

Genderqueer persons, non-gendered persons, transgendered persons, and persons who would prefer not to subscribe to a particular gender for other reasons are all forced to be categorized into "male" and/or "female" debaters. This is an exclusionary practice. Persons of all gendered/non-gendered performance-identities ought to be included rather than excluded. Additionally, some people would prefer simply not to answer, since it is not DDO's business how one identifies with gender.

Part 3:

Therefore:
1. One should have an option to make one's gender private.

2. There should be a number of gender non-binary options, including: "no gender," "genderqueer," "transgender male," "transgender female," "genderly-ambiguous," "it's complicated," and "prefer not to answer."

3. "Not sure? Ask your mom." This statement can be found when you choose your gender (My profile ==> Edit profile ==> Settings ==> gender). The statement is very offensive to persons with complicated genders. Let's not make their lives more miserable or make them feel unwelcome.

4. DDO should ask instead of what gender one is, "To what gender category do you perform most closely?"

These above options would be ideal, but I assume that DDO isn't quite progressive to embrace it wholeheartedly. If you'd like an easier version, just offer "male" "female" "other" "none" and "prefer not to answer," as well as have the option to hide gender.
donald.keller
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2/3/2014 8:59:16 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
This is such a load of crap. DDO is not full of Sexism and is certainly not patriarchal. I almost question how patriarchal the US and Europe is...

We don't need too change things... No one cares if you are a girl or boy, or anything in-between.
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kbub
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2/3/2014 9:01:43 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/3/2014 8:59:16 PM, donald.keller wrote:
This is such a load of crap. DDO is not full of Sexism and is certainly not patriarchal. I almost question how patriarchal the US and Europe is...

We don't need too change things... No one cares if you are a girl or boy, or anything in-between.

Great! Then why is one forbidden from hiding one's gender?
donald.keller
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2/3/2014 9:06:33 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/3/2014 9:01:43 PM, kbub wrote:
At 2/3/2014 8:59:16 PM, donald.keller wrote:
This is such a load of crap. DDO is not full of Sexism and is certainly not patriarchal. I almost question how patriarchal the US and Europe is...

We don't need too change things... No one cares if you are a girl or boy, or anything in-between.

Great! Then why is one forbidden from hiding one's gender?

Because it's unimportant. Why would anyone care? You can hid things that are important and might effect your debate credentials, like age. Since no one cares if your a boy or girl, no one cares to allow a hide option.

Look at the success of Danielle or Ore_Ele.
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Ore_Ele
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2/3/2014 9:12:14 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/3/2014 9:01:43 PM, kbub wrote:
At 2/3/2014 8:59:16 PM, donald.keller wrote:
This is such a load of crap. DDO is not full of Sexism and is certainly not patriarchal. I almost question how patriarchal the US and Europe is...

We don't need too change things... No one cares if you are a girl or boy, or anything in-between.

Great! Then why is one forbidden from hiding one's gender?

It's perfectly easy to hide your gender. Just lie about it.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
kbub
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2/3/2014 9:12:18 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/3/2014 9:06:33 PM, donald.keller wrote:
At 2/3/2014 9:01:43 PM, kbub wrote:
At 2/3/2014 8:59:16 PM, donald.keller wrote:
This is such a load of crap. DDO is not full of Sexism and is certainly not patriarchal. I almost question how patriarchal the US and Europe is...

We don't need too change things... No one cares if you are a girl or boy, or anything in-between.

Great! Then why is one forbidden from hiding one's gender?

Because it's unimportant. Why would anyone care? You can hid things that are important and might effect your debate credentials, like age. Since no one cares if your a boy or girl, no one cares to allow a hide option.

Look at the success of Danielle or Ore_Ele.

Of course there are females who are successful on DDO. Since 51% of the population is female, there should obviously be successful females. Unfortunately, however, that doesn't mean that females have extra hoops to jump through. Danielle and Ore_Ele aren't great debaters because of their gender but because they are smart.

Anyway, forgetting DDO for a moment, we all know that sexism obviously exists in society. Therefore, it would be reasonable to assume that on many websites, that sexism is carried over.

Now, you have not even addressed the latter part of my posts, concerning complex gender assignments. Generqueer persons, transgendered persons, and persons who do not have gender belong on this website too. I find it saddening that DDO excludes their identities.
airmax1227
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2/3/2014 9:14:45 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/3/2014 9:06:33 PM, donald.keller wrote:
At 2/3/2014 9:01:43 PM, kbub wrote:
At 2/3/2014 8:59:16 PM, donald.keller wrote:
This is such a load of crap. DDO is not full of Sexism and is certainly not patriarchal. I almost question how patriarchal the US and Europe is...

We don't need too change things... No one cares if you are a girl or boy, or anything in-between.

Great! Then why is one forbidden from hiding one's gender?

Because it's unimportant. Why would anyone care? You can hid things that are important and might effect your debate credentials, like age. Since no one cares if your a boy or girl, no one cares to allow a hide option.


I disagree. Gender has, at the very least in a subconscious way, a way drawing us to certain preconceived notions. While I think most of us on the site are fair enough to judge debates (ignoring any ideological issues) without taking into account a members gender, this likely isn't always the case. While it might not be the most significant thing on DDO, it certainly exists. Since sexism exists in society, it also certainly exists here.

I think the OP has a solid point about at least having an option for "Other", or "Private"
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kbub
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2/3/2014 9:16:51 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/3/2014 9:12:14 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 2/3/2014 9:01:43 PM, kbub wrote:
At 2/3/2014 8:59:16 PM, donald.keller wrote:
This is such a load of crap. DDO is not full of Sexism and is certainly not patriarchal. I almost question how patriarchal the US and Europe is...

We don't need too change things... No one cares if you are a girl or boy, or anything in-between.

Great! Then why is one forbidden from hiding one's gender?


It's perfectly easy to hide your gender. Just lie about it.

That's not hiding your gender, that's assigning yourself a different, false gender. If one wants to be treated as if gender doesn't matter, then who is DDO to stop one? For similar reasons, one does not have put one's race or religious preference. One should by the same logic be allowed to hide one's gender.

Additionally, it seems that you and I disagree on some things. But the fact that some people might agree with me about gender should mean that one might as well make this change to avoid offending people like me, even if I am wrong. Since gender shouldn't (and according to some, doesn't) matter, and not having that option to hide it make some people upset, then DDO might as well make hiding one's gender an option.
donald.keller
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2/3/2014 9:19:01 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/3/2014 9:14:45 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 2/3/2014 9:06:33 PM, donald.keller wrote:
At 2/3/2014 9:01:43 PM, kbub wrote:
At 2/3/2014 8:59:16 PM, donald.keller wrote:
This is such a load of crap. DDO is not full of Sexism and is certainly not patriarchal. I almost question how patriarchal the US and Europe is...

We don't need too change things... No one cares if you are a girl or boy, or anything in-between.

Great! Then why is one forbidden from hiding one's gender?

Because it's unimportant. Why would anyone care? You can hid things that are important and might effect your debate credentials, like age. Since no one cares if your a boy or girl, no one cares to allow a hide option.


I disagree. Gender has, at the very least in a subconscious way, a way drawing us to certain preconceived notions. While I think most of us on the site are fair enough to judge debates (ignoring any ideological issues) without taking into account a members gender, this likely isn't always the case. While it might not be the most significant thing on DDO, it certainly exists. Since sexism exists in society, it also certainly exists here.

It hardly exists enough to justify this statements:
"it is clear that sexism is rampant in DDO, just as it does in live debates."

I think the OP has a solid point about at least having an option for "Other", or "Private"
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kbub
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2/3/2014 9:19:03 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/3/2014 9:14:45 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 2/3/2014 9:06:33 PM, donald.keller wrote:
At 2/3/2014 9:01:43 PM, kbub wrote:
At 2/3/2014 8:59:16 PM, donald.keller wrote:
This is such a load of crap. DDO is not full of Sexism and is certainly not patriarchal. I almost question how patriarchal the US and Europe is...

We don't need too change things... No one cares if you are a girl or boy, or anything in-between.

Great! Then why is one forbidden from hiding one's gender?

Because it's unimportant. Why would anyone care? You can hid things that are important and might effect your debate credentials, like age. Since no one cares if your a boy or girl, no one cares to allow a hide option.


I disagree. Gender has, at the very least in a subconscious way, a way drawing us to certain preconceived notions. While I think most of us on the site are fair enough to judge debates (ignoring any ideological issues) without taking into account a members gender, this likely isn't always the case. While it might not be the most significant thing on DDO, it certainly exists. Since sexism exists in society, it also certainly exists here.

I think the OP has a solid point about at least having an option for "Other", or "Private"

Thanks, I think! (Am I the OP? Not sure what that means...)
Zaradi
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2/3/2014 9:19:08 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
While your intentions are well and good, this isn't that important of an update. Juggle's already got a sh*t ton of other things they are working on.
Want to debate? Pick a topic and hit me up! - http://www.debate.org...
bsh1
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2/3/2014 9:20:18 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/3/2014 9:15:56 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
They'll survive.

The use of "they'll" seems very otherizing. I think that an "other" option, at the very least, should be included.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

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ConservativePolitico
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2/3/2014 9:20:52 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I agree that you should maybe be able to hide your gender but who cares about genderqueer options? I don't care what gender you ID with honestly. I don't think many people do.

Besides, biology is binary. You're a male or female. Pick one.
airmax1227
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2/3/2014 9:21:07 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/3/2014 9:19:01 PM, donald.keller wrote:
At 2/3/2014 9:14:45 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 2/3/2014 9:06:33 PM, donald.keller wrote:
At 2/3/2014 9:01:43 PM, kbub wrote:
At 2/3/2014 8:59:16 PM, donald.keller wrote:
This is such a load of crap. DDO is not full of Sexism and is certainly not patriarchal. I almost question how patriarchal the US and Europe is...

We don't need too change things... No one cares if you are a girl or boy, or anything in-between.

Great! Then why is one forbidden from hiding one's gender?

Because it's unimportant. Why would anyone care? You can hid things that are important and might effect your debate credentials, like age. Since no one cares if your a boy or girl, no one cares to allow a hide option.


I disagree. Gender has, at the very least in a subconscious way, a way drawing us to certain preconceived notions. While I think most of us on the site are fair enough to judge debates (ignoring any ideological issues) without taking into account a members gender, this likely isn't always the case. While it might not be the most significant thing on DDO, it certainly exists. Since sexism exists in society, it also certainly exists here.

It hardly exists enough to justify this statements:
"it is clear that sexism is rampant in DDO, just as it does in live debates."


I don't necessarily agree with the quoted statement, but I think the general idea is valid enough.
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thett3
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2/3/2014 9:21:11 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/3/2014 9:19:08 PM, Zaradi wrote:
While your intentions are well and good, this isn't that important of an update. Juggle's already got a sh*t ton of other things they are working on.

^
DDO Vice President

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"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

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: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
airmax1227
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2/3/2014 9:21:54 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/3/2014 9:19:03 PM, kbub wrote:
At 2/3/2014 9:14:45 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 2/3/2014 9:06:33 PM, donald.keller wrote:
At 2/3/2014 9:01:43 PM, kbub wrote:
At 2/3/2014 8:59:16 PM, donald.keller wrote:
This is such a load of crap. DDO is not full of Sexism and is certainly not patriarchal. I almost question how patriarchal the US and Europe is...

We don't need too change things... No one cares if you are a girl or boy, or anything in-between.

Great! Then why is one forbidden from hiding one's gender?

Because it's unimportant. Why would anyone care? You can hid things that are important and might effect your debate credentials, like age. Since no one cares if your a boy or girl, no one cares to allow a hide option.


I disagree. Gender has, at the very least in a subconscious way, a way drawing us to certain preconceived notions. While I think most of us on the site are fair enough to judge debates (ignoring any ideological issues) without taking into account a members gender, this likely isn't always the case. While it might not be the most significant thing on DDO, it certainly exists. Since sexism exists in society, it also certainly exists here.

I think the OP has a solid point about at least having an option for "Other", or "Private"

Thanks, I think! (Am I the OP? Not sure what that means...)

You are the OP (Original Poster).
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kbub
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2/3/2014 9:22:34 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/3/2014 9:19:01 PM, donald.keller wrote:
At 2/3/2014 9:14:45 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 2/3/2014 9:06:33 PM, donald.keller wrote:
At 2/3/2014 9:01:43 PM, kbub wrote:
At 2/3/2014 8:59:16 PM, donald.keller wrote:
This is such a load of crap. DDO is not full of Sexism and is certainly not patriarchal. I almost question how patriarchal the US and Europe is...

We don't need too change things... No one cares if you are a girl or boy, or anything in-between.

Great! Then why is one forbidden from hiding one's gender?

Because it's unimportant. Why would anyone care? You can hid things that are important and might effect your debate credentials, like age. Since no one cares if your a boy or girl, no one cares to allow a hide option.


I disagree. Gender has, at the very least in a subconscious way, a way drawing us to certain preconceived notions. While I think most of us on the site are fair enough to judge debates (ignoring any ideological issues) without taking into account a members gender, this likely isn't always the case. While it might not be the most significant thing on DDO, it certainly exists. Since sexism exists in society, it also certainly exists here.

It hardly exists enough to justify this statements:
"it is clear that sexism is rampant in DDO, just as it does in live debates."


You might be right; DDO might not have "rampant" sexism. Perhaps we agree though that even a little sexism could be a problem, and making such a small, easy change could make strides, or at least give additional freedom.

I think the OP has a solid point about at least having an option for "Other", or "Private"
thett3
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2/3/2014 9:23:39 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Where is this alleged "rampant" sexism on DDO anyway?
DDO Vice President

#StandwithBossy

#UnbanTheMadman

#BetOnThett

"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
bsh1
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2/3/2014 9:26:33 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/3/2014 9:23:39 PM, thett3 wrote:
Where is this alleged "rampant" sexism on DDO anyway?

lol...That story about Royal...

Jk. That was awesome.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

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airmax1227
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2/3/2014 9:26:36 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/3/2014 9:19:08 PM, Zaradi wrote:
While your intentions are well and good, this isn't that important of an update. Juggle's already got a sh*t ton of other things they are working on.

The importance of (and consideration for) these types of conversations doesn't need to be relative to the likeliness of an update to happen. This would also be a fairly minor thing.
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bsh1
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2/3/2014 9:27:54 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/3/2014 9:26:36 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 2/3/2014 9:19:08 PM, Zaradi wrote:
While your intentions are well and good, this isn't that important of an update. Juggle's already got a sh*t ton of other things they are working on.

The importance of (and consideration for) these types of conversations doesn't need to be relative to the likeliness of an update to happen. This would also be a fairly minor thing.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

Follow the DDOlympics
: http://www.debate.org...

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donald.keller
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2/3/2014 9:31:19 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/3/2014 9:12:18 PM, kbub wrote:
At 2/3/2014 9:06:33 PM, donald.keller wrote:
At 2/3/2014 9:01:43 PM, kbub wrote:
At 2/3/2014 8:59:16 PM, donald.keller wrote:
This is such a load of crap. DDO is not full of Sexism and is certainly not patriarchal. I almost question how patriarchal the US and Europe is...

We don't need too change things... No one cares if you are a girl or boy, or anything in-between.

Great! Then why is one forbidden from hiding one's gender?

Because it's unimportant. Why would anyone care? You can hid things that are important and might effect your debate credentials, like age. Since no one cares if your a boy or girl, no one cares to allow a hide option.

Look at the success of Danielle or Ore_Ele.

Of course there are females who are successful on DDO. Since 51% of the population is female, there should obviously be successful females. Unfortunately, however, that doesn't mean that females have extra hoops to jump through.

These aren't just female members... They are among the top members of the site. Women are make up some of DDO's most respected members.

Danielle and Ore_Ele aren't great debaters because of their gender but because they are smart.

Exactly! Few people here consider gender when voting. If they did, Danielle and Ore-Ele wouldn't be in the top 10 member list.

Anyway, forgetting DDO for a moment, we all know that sexism obviously exists in society. Therefore, it would be reasonable to assume that on many websites, that sexism is carried over.

This is a website of very smart people. It doesn't carry over every feature of society.

Now, you have not even addressed the latter part of my posts, concerning complex gender assignments. Generqueer persons, transgendered persons, and persons who do not have gender belong on this website too. I find it saddening that DDO excludes their identities.

What symbols would represent them? Wouldn't that only further discrimination? The idea of these things is for people to not have to hide their gender. Many people would easily consider your proposal to be overkill.
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donald.keller
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2/3/2014 9:32:37 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/3/2014 9:22:34 PM, kbub wrote:
At 2/3/2014 9:19:01 PM, donald.keller wrote:
At 2/3/2014 9:14:45 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 2/3/2014 9:06:33 PM, donald.keller wrote:
At 2/3/2014 9:01:43 PM, kbub wrote:
At 2/3/2014 8:59:16 PM, donald.keller wrote:
This is such a load of crap. DDO is not full of Sexism and is certainly not patriarchal. I almost question how patriarchal the US and Europe is...

We don't need too change things... No one cares if you are a girl or boy, or anything in-between.

Great! Then why is one forbidden from hiding one's gender?

Because it's unimportant. Why would anyone care? You can hid things that are important and might effect your debate credentials, like age. Since no one cares if your a boy or girl, no one cares to allow a hide option.


I disagree. Gender has, at the very least in a subconscious way, a way drawing us to certain preconceived notions. While I think most of us on the site are fair enough to judge debates (ignoring any ideological issues) without taking into account a members gender, this likely isn't always the case. While it might not be the most significant thing on DDO, it certainly exists. Since sexism exists in society, it also certainly exists here.

It hardly exists enough to justify this statements:
"it is clear that sexism is rampant in DDO, just as it does in live debates."


You might be right; DDO might not have "rampant" sexism. Perhaps we agree though that even a little sexism could be a problem, and making such a small, easy change could make strides, or at least give additional freedom.

Well now that we're on even ground. A "Private" and "Other" option would be good. I think "Other" is overkill, but it's not my site.

I think the OP has a solid point about at least having an option for "Other", or "Private"
-- Don't forget to submit your unvoted debates to the Voter's Union --

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kbub
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2/3/2014 9:33:49 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/3/2014 9:23:39 PM, thett3 wrote:
Where is this alleged "rampant" sexism on DDO anyway?

I'd say that most of the sexism on DDO is subtle, as in subconscious voting preferences, though some of it is less than subtle. Here is an example of some less than subtle sexism:

Crazy obvious sexism:
http://www.debate.org...

And moderate sexism (in my opinion):
http://www.debate.org...
kbub
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2/3/2014 9:41:28 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/3/2014 9:32:53 PM, xXCryptoXx wrote:
At 2/3/2014 9:15:56 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
They'll survive.

I'm would assume such persons would not die because of this change. Then again, hardly any change at DDO is enough to save or end a life.

However, being cut off from expressing one's own identity, such as in the case of genderqueer, transgender, or non-gendered persons, can be difficult. Society is hardly accepting of such persons. Suicide rate is very high among non-binary gender performing persons. School can be Hell, church can be Hell, parents can make one's life Hell, the workplace can make one's life Hell. Being online is one of the ways of interacting in a safe environment; I would think it unkind to refuse such persons access to the identity that society has persistently refused them.
thett3
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2/3/2014 9:42:20 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/3/2014 9:33:49 PM, kbub wrote:
At 2/3/2014 9:23:39 PM, thett3 wrote:
Where is this alleged "rampant" sexism on DDO anyway?

I'd say that most of the sexism on DDO is subtle, as in subconscious voting preferences,

You'll need some proof of that assertion.

though some of it is less than subtle. Here is an example of some less than subtle sexism:

Crazy obvious sexism:
http://www.debate.org...

True, but that hardly proves rampant sexism lol...I mean, come on. It was a debate of ridiculously poor quality by two members that will probably be gone in a month. Not an indictment of the sites culture at all.

And moderate sexism (in my opinion):
http://www.debate.org...

That isn't really sexist imo, just dumb. Either way, I highly doubt that this could be considered "rampant" sexism.
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donald.keller
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2/3/2014 9:42:21 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/3/2014 9:33:49 PM, kbub wrote:
At 2/3/2014 9:23:39 PM, thett3 wrote:
Where is this alleged "rampant" sexism on DDO anyway?

I'd say that most of the sexism on DDO is subtle, as in subconscious voting preferences, though some of it is less than subtle. Here is an example of some less than subtle sexism:

Crazy obvious sexism:
http://www.debate.org...

Not sexism. Pro did a terrible job of stating his case. You have to win through debate, not on moral grounds.

And moderate sexism (in my opinion):
http://www.debate.org...

It didn't seem sexist... Most of these are the same as what women expect from men. It didn't enforce gender roles or being submissive. That, and the post wasn't well received.
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