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Ideas for Team Debate

donald.keller
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2/7/2014 10:05:33 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I posted some images describing what a Team Debate set up could look like.

http://www.debate.org...
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Mikal
Posts: 11,270
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2/7/2014 10:06:56 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/7/2014 10:05:33 PM, donald.keller wrote:
I posted some images describing what a Team Debate set up could look like.

http://www.debate.org...

i love the look of it in. Just hope they implement it.
bluesteel
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2/7/2014 11:09:48 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
The simplest setup is to use the exact system they have now, but allow 2 vs. 2 debates.

In a four round debate, 2 vs. 2 would be:

Round 1: Pro1 argues
Round 1: Con1 argues
Round 2: Pro2 argues
Round 2: Con2 argues
Round 3: Pro1 argues
Round 3: Con1 argues
Round 4: Pro2 argues
Round 4: Con2 argues

The win-loss then shows up in all users' statistics.
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)
Zaradi
Posts: 14,125
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2/7/2014 11:10:32 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/7/2014 11:09:48 PM, bluesteel wrote:
The simplest setup is to use the exact system they have now, but allow 2 vs. 2 debates.

In a four round debate, 2 vs. 2 would be:

Round 1: Pro1 argues
Round 1: Con1 argues
Round 2: Pro2 argues
Round 2: Con2 argues
Round 3: Pro1 argues
Round 3: Con1 argues
Round 4: Pro2 argues
Round 4: Con2 argues

The win-loss then shows up in all users' statistics.
Want to debate? Pick a topic and hit me up! - http://www.debate.org...
donald.keller
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2/7/2014 11:13:18 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/7/2014 11:09:48 PM, bluesteel wrote:
The simplest setup is to use the exact system they have now, but allow 2 vs. 2 debates.

In a four round debate, 2 vs. 2 would be:

Round 1: Pro1 argues
Round 1: Con1 argues
Round 2: Pro2 argues
Round 2: Con2 argues
Round 3: Pro1 argues
Round 3: Con1 argues
Round 4: Pro2 argues
Round 4: Con2 argues

The win-loss then shows up in all users' statistics.

I created my concept because that concept, where everyone does their own argument separately, doesn't really give off the team feel. You don't have to go simple and cheap, especially on such a popular update.
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bluesteel
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2/7/2014 11:22:52 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/7/2014 11:13:18 PM, donald.keller wrote:
I created my concept because that concept, where everyone does their own argument separately, doesn't really give off the team feel. You don't have to go simple and cheap, especially on such a popular update.

True, but (1) Juggle is more likely to perform updates that are easy to program and (2) that's how team debate works in real life. Honestly, I can't imagine trying to co-write an entire argument like you might on a Google doc with 3 people all adding and editing. Each person has their own style of debating and wants to prioritize certain arguments over others. It would get really contentious and vexxing to cooperate (and would be difficult to even talk unless you were all on gchat together while doing it).

Personally, if Juggle is willing to overhaul how the debates themselves appear, I'd like to see them put the arguments horizontally and show which ones are responded to. For example, if the debate were "The US should legalize marijuana."

Round 1, Pro =======================>Round 1, Con

Argument 1==> tax revenue ===========>Only marginal amount, harm outweighs

Argument 2==> decrease jail population ==> Drugs are a crime, ppl deserve to be in jail

Make sense?

This setup shows which arguments are responded to and which are dropped. It helps the judge more clearly see which argument responds to which. And it helps encourage newbie debaters to organize their thoughts into distinct arguments.

You could just hit an "add new argument" button each time you wanted to add one. And Con could create brand new arguments for their side that Pro never made.
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)
donald.keller
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2/7/2014 11:31:09 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/7/2014 11:22:52 PM, bluesteel wrote:
At 2/7/2014 11:13:18 PM, donald.keller wrote:
I created my concept because that concept, where everyone does their own argument separately, doesn't really give off the team feel. You don't have to go simple and cheap, especially on such a popular update.

True, but (1) Juggle is more likely to perform updates that are easy to program and
That doesn't mean the proposal can't be bigger. They won't aim big if they aren't expected to.

(2) that's how team debate works in real life. Honestly, I can't imagine trying to co-write an entire argument like you might on a Google doc with 3 people all adding and editing. Each person has their own style of debating and wants to prioritize certain arguments over others. It would get really contentious and vexxing to cooperate (and would be difficult to even talk unless you were all on gchat together while doing it).

Well my system did involve a chat room setup (programming like that is era's old. Nothing new or difficult there). As for working together, I know that would seem harder, but it'd be just as hard if not harder in the other version. I'd focus on Argument I, II, and III in round 1, and you'd have to defend those when you believed Arguments III, IV, and V were the best way to go. Now you don't even have room for Argument V... See? Same issue, bigger problem. This way you can compromise better.


Personally, if Juggle is willing to overhaul how the debates themselves appear, I'd like to see them put the arguments horizontally and show which ones are responded to. For example, if the debate were "The US should legalize marijuana."

Round 1, Pro =======================>Round 1, Con

Argument 1==> tax revenue ===========>Only marginal amount, harm outweighs

Argument 2==> decrease jail population ==> Drugs are a crime, ppl deserve to be in jail

Make sense?

I know exactly what you mean. I've thought of that many times.

This setup shows which arguments are responded to and which are dropped. It helps the judge more clearly see which argument responds to which. And it helps encourage newbie debaters to organize their thoughts into distinct arguments.

You could just hit an "add new argument" button each time you wanted to add one. And Con could create brand new arguments for their side that Pro never made.

Perhaps that could be a second type of debate altogether... You don't need to be stuck with one set up... A good site would have multiple systems of debate.

We could have that set up AND the classic set up. If DDO did ALL of that, and only ever had one system, I'd be mad... A Debate website should have many ways to debate, if it can.
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donald.keller
Posts: 3,709
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2/7/2014 11:32:37 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/7/2014 11:22:52 PM, bluesteel wrote:
At 2/7/2014 11:13:18 PM, donald.keller wrote:
I created my concept because that concept, where everyone does their own argument separately, doesn't really give off the team feel. You don't have to go simple and cheap, especially on such a popular update.

True, but (1) Juggle is more likely to perform updates that are easy to program and (2) that's how team debate works in real life. Honestly, I can't imagine trying to co-write an entire argument like you might on a Google doc with 3 people all adding and editing. Each person has their own style of debating and wants to prioritize certain arguments over others. It would get really contentious and vexxing to cooperate (and would be difficult to even talk unless you were all on gchat together while doing it).

Personally, if Juggle is willing to overhaul how the debates themselves appear, I'd like to see them put the arguments horizontally and show which ones are responded to. For example, if the debate were "The US should legalize marijuana."

Round 1, Pro =======================>Round 1, Con

Argument 1==> tax revenue ===========>Only marginal amount, harm outweighs

Argument 2==> decrease jail population ==> Drugs are a crime, ppl deserve to be in jail

Make sense?

This setup shows which arguments are responded to and which are dropped. It helps the judge more clearly see which argument responds to which. And it helps encourage newbie debaters to organize their thoughts into distinct arguments.

You could just hit an "add new argument" button each time you wanted to add one. And Con could create brand new arguments for their side that Pro never made.

Besides. I live near Juggle... I'll go up and beat 'em up if they don't try extra hard on the most waited for update in DDO history.
-- Don't forget to submit your unvoted debates to the Voter's Union --

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Romanii
Posts: 4,851
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2/7/2014 11:46:48 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Woah! Team Debates!?!?! That's a pretty epic idea!
I would love to work with someone in building my arguments!

Is this actually something that Juggle is planning to do?
donald.keller
Posts: 3,709
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2/7/2014 11:53:56 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/7/2014 11:46:48 PM, Romanii wrote:
Woah! Team Debates!?!?! That's a pretty epic idea!
I would love to work with someone in building my arguments!

Knew someone would like it

Is this actually something that Juggle is planning to do?

Hopefully. Everyone's been wanting it for years.
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larztheloser
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2/8/2014 4:05:11 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/8/2014 12:51:41 AM, Zaradi wrote:
www.edeb8.com

Literally DDO with team debates. They hardly ever get used.

To be fair, that's because the site hardly ever gets used. I can guarantee that if there were 1000 active members on edeb8 there would be lots of team debates, and if a few people do it then other members would say "hey, I'd like to try that!"

For those that don't know, I'm the guy behind edeb8, so feel free to shoot me any team debate suggestions you have and I can probably make them happen. And while I'm here - I'm working on a little something for DDO too (not team debate related but still). Will be a few more weeks before it's ready to show but I think a lot of you will enjoy it ;)
Zaradi
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2/8/2014 4:09:20 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/8/2014 4:05:11 AM, larztheloser wrote:
At 2/8/2014 12:51:41 AM, Zaradi wrote:
www.edeb8.com

Literally DDO with team debates. They hardly ever get used.

To be fair, that's because the site hardly ever gets used.

Fair point. But even still among those who use it there are far more one on one debates than team debates.

I can guarantee that if there were 1000 active members on edeb8 there would be lots of team debates, and if a few people do it then other members would say "hey, I'd like to try that!"

For those that don't know, I'm the guy behind edeb8, so feel free to shoot me any team debate suggestions you have and I can probably make them happen. And while I'm here - I'm working on a little something for DDO too (not team debate related but still). Will be a few more weeks before it's ready to show but I think a lot of you will enjoy it ;)
Want to debate? Pick a topic and hit me up! - http://www.debate.org...
Tophatdoc
Posts: 534
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2/8/2014 5:41:36 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/8/2014 4:05:11 AM, larztheloser wrote:
At 2/8/2014 12:51:41 AM, Zaradi wrote:
www.edeb8.com

Literally DDO with team debates. They hardly ever get used.

To be fair, that's because the site hardly ever gets used. I can guarantee that if there were 1000 active members on edeb8 there would be lots of team debates, and if a few people do it then other members would say "hey, I'd like to try that!"

For those that don't know, I'm the guy behind edeb8, so feel free to shoot me any team debate suggestions you have and I can probably make them happen. And while I'm here - I'm working on a little something for DDO too (not team debate related but still). Will be a few more weeks before it's ready to show but I think a lot of you will enjoy it ;)

At one point, I was considering having an account with EDEB8. But I couldn't get along with the UI over there. I just revisited the site when you mentioned it and came across this debate on the front page. Interesting.

EDEB8 vs. DDO:
http://www.edeb8.com...
"Don't click on my profile. Don't send me friend requests. Don't read my debates. There are many interesting people on DDO. Find one of them. Go find someone exciting and loquacious. Go click on their profile. Go send them friend requests. Go read their debates. Leave me alone." -Tophatdoc
Kc1999
Posts: 1,037
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2/8/2014 7:55:55 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/8/2014 5:41:36 AM, Tophatdoc wrote:
At 2/8/2014 4:05:11 AM, larztheloser wrote:
At 2/8/2014 12:51:41 AM, Zaradi wrote:
www.edeb8.com

Literally DDO with team debates. They hardly ever get used.

To be fair, that's because the site hardly ever gets used. I can guarantee that if there were 1000 active members on edeb8 there would be lots of team debates, and if a few people do it then other members would say "hey, I'd like to try that!"

For those that don't know, I'm the guy behind edeb8, so feel free to shoot me any team debate suggestions you have and I can probably make them happen. And while I'm here - I'm working on a little something for DDO too (not team debate related but still). Will be a few more weeks before it's ready to show but I think a lot of you will enjoy it ;)

At one point, I was considering having an account with EDEB8. But I couldn't get along with the UI over there. I just revisited the site when you mentioned it and came across this debate on the front page. Interesting.

EDEB8 vs. DDO:
http://www.edeb8.com...
I looked at it; I considered, by still, this site was superior in it's design. If we could have team debates, that would be great in my opinion
#NoToMobocracy #BladeStroink
larztheloser
Posts: 857
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2/8/2014 4:56:16 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Both of you --- thanks for considering it! Mind letting me know what it was about the design you didn't like? That's one of the things I'd like to improve and I know is a problem, but it's hard to know where to concentrate my efforts.
Tophatdoc
Posts: 534
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2/8/2014 6:56:13 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/8/2014 4:56:16 PM, larztheloser wrote:
Both of you --- thanks for considering it! Mind letting me know what it was about the design you didn't like? That's one of the things I'd like to improve and I know is a problem, but it's hard to know where to concentrate my efforts.

Well I will be fair. If I am going to say wait I dislike I will say what I like as well.

I don't like how you have to maneuver around the site by clicking EDEB8 at the very top of the screen. At least that is what you see at first glance. At the bottom you can find the sitemap. I felt like it was intended to be kept a secret almost. Considering the sitemap can lead you to the forums, the blog, and coaching. It would seems like these should be some of the most important places to build a community. Considering "coaching" could keep people on the site longer to figure out how to debate.

I liked how there was an epic video presentation(with the great music) welcoming users to the site. I also enjoyed the "About Us" section far more then the DDO version of this section. I like how there are teams and team ranks. Actually I loved how the ranks were on the front page with judges, debaters, and teams. It reminded me of a chess site I frequent. But I did not understand how rankings worked at all? I noticed people who had never had a debate were ranked. The explanation for how rankings worked was not listed in the "About Us" section.

These are the things that stuck out. I noticed more. But EDEB8 is definitely better then CreateDebate(It is a nightmare).
"Don't click on my profile. Don't send me friend requests. Don't read my debates. There are many interesting people on DDO. Find one of them. Go find someone exciting and loquacious. Go click on their profile. Go send them friend requests. Go read their debates. Leave me alone." -Tophatdoc
donald.keller
Posts: 3,709
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2/8/2014 7:06:59 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Before anyone talks about my idea being too big to be made, remember we have quite the number of members willing to voluntarily code something like that if Juggle mentioned working on it.
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larztheloser
Posts: 857
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2/8/2014 7:45:42 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/8/2014 6:56:13 PM, Tophatdoc wrote:
Well I will be fair. If I am going to say wait I dislike I will say what I like as well.

I don't like how you have to maneuver around the site by clicking EDEB8 at the very top of the screen. At least that is what you see at first glance. At the bottom you can find the sitemap. I felt like it was intended to be kept a secret almost. Considering the sitemap can lead you to the forums, the blog, and coaching. It would seems like these should be some of the most important places to build a community. Considering "coaching" could keep people on the site longer to figure out how to debate.

I liked how there was an epic video presentation(with the great music) welcoming users to the site. I also enjoyed the "About Us" section far more then the DDO version of this section. I like how there are teams and team ranks. Actually I loved how the ranks were on the front page with judges, debaters, and teams. It reminded me of a chess site I frequent. But I did not understand how rankings worked at all? I noticed people who had never had a debate were ranked. The explanation for how rankings worked was not listed in the "About Us" section.

These are the things that stuck out. I noticed more. But EDEB8 is definitely better then CreateDebate(It is a nightmare).

Thanks ... check back on the site in a few days, I think I can get these things fixed pretty fast!

Also thanks for saying the video presentation has great music - I literally improvised that! Had to get that video made within one hour so it was a real rush.
TUF
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2/8/2014 7:48:24 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/8/2014 4:05:11 AM, larztheloser wrote:
At 2/8/2014 12:51:41 AM, Zaradi wrote:
www.edeb8.com

Literally DDO with team debates. They hardly ever get used.

To be fair, that's because the site hardly ever gets used. I can guarantee that if there were 1000 active members on edeb8 there would be lots of team debates, and if a few people do it then other members would say "hey, I'd like to try that!"

Debate sites are centered around a really narrow community. DDO itself took years to get as many active members as it does now. When I first joined the site, there are never this many people. It grew and grew over time, just like I am sure Edb8 will. As more content gets built, the search engines will start pushing your site higher and higher up the chain, and soon your site may even become more popular than DDO.

For those that don't know, I'm the guy behind edeb8, so feel free to shoot me any team debate suggestions you have and I can probably make them happen. And while I'm here - I'm working on a little something for DDO too (not team debate related but still). Will be a few more weeks before it's ready to show but I think a lot of you will enjoy it ;)

Ooh, I am interested. If you would like some help, send me a PM lol.
"I've got to go and grab a shirt" ~ Airmax1227
TUF
Posts: 21,309
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2/8/2014 8:08:47 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Thanks for this, it is a pretty cool idea. I should have included you in the discussion I had with other members about this a while ago. While we have made a pretty good format, more ideas like this will bring different creativity to the ideas.

I do have questions though:

Does this set up require multiple users to be online at the same time?

http://www.debate.org...

In the above picture, you said it would require a majority of users to agree to submit an argument before it could go through. This might be a problem if someone became busy. I know you said members could be away in the example, but I am wondering what the point is of having the text marker that would show if a member was typing or not would be? Also what is the point of the history tab? And does the user 1 in this example get to suggest changes before or after user 3 posts it?

Anyways, the debate chat seems like an interesting idea, though perhaps un-neccesary as they have PM's. Also if a normal chat sytem was implemented, that could be a good substitute as well. Overall I think it is a cool idea, though at first glance some of the initial features seem stange to me.

Anyways, here are some of my old ideas for this if you want to check em out.

More than 2, alternating:
http://i.imgur.com...
http://i.imgur.com...

Seperate statistics:
http://i.imgur.com...

Start a new team debate:
http://i.imgur.com...

2v2 multiple rounds
http://i.imgur.com...
http://i.imgur.com...

And here is a video outlining some ideas.
https://www.youtube.com...
"I've got to go and grab a shirt" ~ Airmax1227
bluesteel
Posts: 12,301
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2/10/2014 10:01:14 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/8/2014 7:48:24 PM, TUF wrote:
At 2/8/2014 4:05:11 AM, larztheloser wrote:
At 2/8/2014 12:51:41 AM, Zaradi wrote:
www.edeb8.com

Literally DDO with team debates. They hardly ever get used.

To be fair, that's because the site hardly ever gets used. I can guarantee that if there were 1000 active members on edeb8 there would be lots of team debates, and if a few people do it then other members would say "hey, I'd like to try that!"

Debate sites are centered around a really narrow community. DDO itself took years to get as many active members as it does now. When I first joined the site, there are never this many people. It grew and grew over time, just like I am sure Edb8 will. As more content gets built, the search engines will start pushing your site higher and higher up the chain, and soon your site may even become more popular than DDO.


Is there a reason Google crawlers don't capture the forum content?

For those that don't know, I'm the guy behind edeb8, so feel free to shoot me any team debate suggestions you have and I can probably make them happen. And while I'm here - I'm working on a little something for DDO too (not team debate related but still). Will be a few more weeks before it's ready to show but I think a lot of you will enjoy it ;)

Ooh, I am interested. If you would like some help, send me a PM lol.
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)
TUF
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2/10/2014 11:35:27 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/10/2014 10:01:14 PM, bluesteel wrote:
At 2/8/2014 7:48:24 PM, TUF wrote:
At 2/8/2014 4:05:11 AM, larztheloser wrote:
At 2/8/2014 12:51:41 AM, Zaradi wrote:
www.edeb8.com

Literally DDO with team debates. They hardly ever get used.

To be fair, that's because the site hardly ever gets used. I can guarantee that if there were 1000 active members on edeb8 there would be lots of team debates, and if a few people do it then other members would say "hey, I'd like to try that!"

Debate sites are centered around a really narrow community. DDO itself took years to get as many active members as it does now. When I first joined the site, there are never this many people. It grew and grew over time, just like I am sure Edb8 will. As more content gets built, the search engines will start pushing your site higher and higher up the chain, and soon your site may even become more popular than DDO.


Is there a reason Google crawlers don't capture the forum content?

It does as far as I am aware.


For those that don't know, I'm the guy behind edeb8, so feel free to shoot me any team debate suggestions you have and I can probably make them happen. And while I'm here - I'm working on a little something for DDO too (not team debate related but still). Will be a few more weeks before it's ready to show but I think a lot of you will enjoy it ;)

Ooh, I am interested. If you would like some help, send me a PM lol.
"I've got to go and grab a shirt" ~ Airmax1227
bluesteel
Posts: 12,301
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2/10/2014 11:46:44 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/10/2014 11:35:27 PM, TUF wrote:
At 2/10/2014 10:01:14 PM, bluesteel wrote:
At 2/8/2014 7:48:24 PM, TUF wrote:
At 2/8/2014 4:05:11 AM, larztheloser wrote:
At 2/8/2014 12:51:41 AM, Zaradi wrote:
www.edeb8.com

Literally DDO with team debates. They hardly ever get used.

To be fair, that's because the site hardly ever gets used. I can guarantee that if there were 1000 active members on edeb8 there would be lots of team debates, and if a few people do it then other members would say "hey, I'd like to try that!"

Debate sites are centered around a really narrow community. DDO itself took years to get as many active members as it does now. When I first joined the site, there are never this many people. It grew and grew over time, just like I am sure Edb8 will. As more content gets built, the search engines will start pushing your site higher and higher up the chain, and soon your site may even become more popular than DDO.


Is there a reason Google crawlers don't capture the forum content?

It does as far as I am aware.

Oh you're right. I just tested it. The results are just extremely low for practically everything. I always wondered why yahoo answers comes up so often but never DDO forums since many of the same things are discussed, but I'm sure there's a reason for that that I don't know, due to Google's algorithm.

But someone should really optimize the cite. Some of the debates here are a great source of information, but have almost zero chance of generating a hit, unless the title of the debate is an exact match (like Juggle should put "categories" for the debate onto the page itself so Google can crawl those). Or have people "tag" debates with subjects.



For those that don't know, I'm the guy behind edeb8, so feel free to shoot me any team debate suggestions you have and I can probably make them happen. And while I'm here - I'm working on a little something for DDO too (not team debate related but still). Will be a few more weeks before it's ready to show but I think a lot of you will enjoy it ;)

Ooh, I am interested. If you would like some help, send me a PM lol.
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)
TUF
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2/11/2014 1:58:27 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/10/2014 11:46:44 PM, bluesteel wrote:
At 2/10/2014 11:35:27 PM, TUF wrote:
At 2/10/2014 10:01:14 PM, bluesteel wrote:
At 2/8/2014 7:48:24 PM, TUF wrote:
At 2/8/2014 4:05:11 AM, larztheloser wrote:
At 2/8/2014 12:51:41 AM, Zaradi wrote:
www.edeb8.com

Literally DDO with team debates. They hardly ever get used.

To be fair, that's because the site hardly ever gets used. I can guarantee that if there were 1000 active members on edeb8 there would be lots of team debates, and if a few people do it then other members would say "hey, I'd like to try that!"

Debate sites are centered around a really narrow community. DDO itself took years to get as many active members as it does now. When I first joined the site, there are never this many people. It grew and grew over time, just like I am sure Edb8 will. As more content gets built, the search engines will start pushing your site higher and higher up the chain, and soon your site may even become more popular than DDO.


Is there a reason Google crawlers don't capture the forum content?

It does as far as I am aware.

Oh you're right. I just tested it. The results are just extremely low for practically everything. I always wondered why yahoo answers comes up so often but never DDO forums since many of the same things are discussed, but I'm sure there's a reason for that that I don't know, due to Google's algorithm.

But someone should really optimize the cite. Some of the debates here are a great source of information, but have almost zero chance of generating a hit, unless the title of the debate is an exact match (like Juggle should put "categories" for the debate onto the page itself so Google can crawl those). Or have people "tag" debates with subjects.

Well I agree. The seo specialist does a pretty good job as is, however making an easier function for meta content user side would be awesome. Ore_Ele had a theory that I think might work. I haven't tested it, but I think you can use meta tags in your debates through html mode. If it works, that will definitely grab some attention to debates of people can learn to use them. I'll test it when I get a chance and publicize my results.
"I've got to go and grab a shirt" ~ Airmax1227