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Votebombing

SeventhProfessor
Posts: 5,079
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2/14/2014 10:00:32 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Was it really common in the past? Before RFDs were required and people could vote for themselves, it seems like most votes were VBs. For example, here's the debate that brought me to DDO while researching for a school project: https://www.debate.org...

Neither debater did noticeably better in S/G nor conduct, yet several voters voted in those categories.
#UnbanTheMadman

#StandWithBossy

#BetOnThett

"bossy r u like 85 years old and have lost ur mind"
~mysteriouscrystals

"I've honestly never seen seventh post anything that wasn't completely idiotic in a trying-to-be-funny way."
~F-16

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dtaylor971
Posts: 1,907
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2/14/2014 10:02:25 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
RoyLatham voted all seven points in favor of pro, and that's why everyone did it.
"I don't know why gays want to marry, I have spent the last 25 years wishing I wasn't allowed to." -Sadolite
SeventhProfessor
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2/14/2014 10:03:38 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/14/2014 10:02:25 PM, dtaylor971 wrote:
RoyLatham voted all seven points in favor of pro, and that's why everyone did it.

That was actually what surprised me the most.
#UnbanTheMadman

#StandWithBossy

#BetOnThett

"bossy r u like 85 years old and have lost ur mind"
~mysteriouscrystals

"I've honestly never seen seventh post anything that wasn't completely idiotic in a trying-to-be-funny way."
~F-16

https://docs.google.com...
dtaylor971
Posts: 1,907
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2/14/2014 10:04:44 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/14/2014 10:03:38 PM, SeventhProfessor wrote:
At 2/14/2014 10:02:25 PM, dtaylor971 wrote:
RoyLatham voted all seven points in favor of pro, and that's why everyone did it.

That was actually what surprised me the most.

Me too. We have more votebombers here than in the past, I would say (considering all of the temporary new members.)
"I don't know why gays want to marry, I have spent the last 25 years wishing I wasn't allowed to." -Sadolite
SeventhProfessor
Posts: 5,079
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2/14/2014 10:06:13 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/14/2014 10:04:44 PM, dtaylor971 wrote:
At 2/14/2014 10:03:38 PM, SeventhProfessor wrote:
At 2/14/2014 10:02:25 PM, dtaylor971 wrote:
RoyLatham voted all seven points in favor of pro, and that's why everyone did it.

That was actually what surprised me the most.

Me too. We have more votebombers here than in the past, I would say (considering all of the temporary new members.)

The thing is, Roy's account was about a year old when that happened, so he wasn't a noob then. I guess it was just incredibly common and the points were more of a guideline.
#UnbanTheMadman

#StandWithBossy

#BetOnThett

"bossy r u like 85 years old and have lost ur mind"
~mysteriouscrystals

"I've honestly never seen seventh post anything that wasn't completely idiotic in a trying-to-be-funny way."
~F-16

https://docs.google.com...
airmax1227
Posts: 13,231
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2/14/2014 10:11:01 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Votebombing was pretty much standard operating procedure then. Debaters would even VB for themselves (voting for ones self was allowed then) with the assumption that their opponent would do the same.
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dtaylor971
Posts: 1,907
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2/14/2014 10:16:01 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/14/2014 10:11:01 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
Votebombing was pretty much standard operating procedure then. Debaters would even VB for themselves (voting for ones self was allowed then) with the assumption that their opponent would do the same.

Yeah, assuming something almost never leads to something good
"I don't know why gays want to marry, I have spent the last 25 years wishing I wasn't allowed to." -Sadolite
airmax1227
Posts: 13,231
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2/14/2014 10:20:07 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/14/2014 10:16:01 PM, dtaylor971 wrote:
At 2/14/2014 10:11:01 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
Votebombing was pretty much standard operating procedure then. Debaters would even VB for themselves (voting for ones self was allowed then) with the assumption that their opponent would do the same.

Yeah, assuming something almost never leads to something good

The system was flawed to the extent that it often required debaters to do this. I wouldn't even necessarily call it "votebombing" at this time. A 7 point vote without explanation to whatever side, was just a vote. So was placing a vote for yourself. It was just how things were. Things have changed significantly since then.
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donald.keller
Posts: 3,709
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2/15/2014 4:30:21 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/14/2014 10:03:38 PM, SeventhProfessor wrote:
At 2/14/2014 10:02:25 PM, dtaylor971 wrote:
RoyLatham voted all seven points in favor of pro, and that's why everyone did it.

That was actually what surprised me the most.
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bluesteel
Posts: 12,301
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2/15/2014 7:39:41 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/14/2014 10:03:38 PM, SeventhProfessor wrote:
At 2/14/2014 10:02:25 PM, dtaylor971 wrote:
RoyLatham voted all seven points in favor of pro, and that's why everyone did it.

That was actually what surprised me the most.

To put this somewhat delicately:

If I made a list of the top 20 fairest and best judges on this site, Roy would not make the list. He would obviously, however, make my list of top 5 debaters.

The reason for Roy's exclusion would be: inability to put his own topic-bias out of his decision and voting too many points to the winning side (compared to the standard on DDO of only voting arguments and sources, except in extreme cases).
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)
Mikal
Posts: 11,268
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2/15/2014 7:43:46 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/15/2014 7:39:41 PM, bluesteel wrote:
At 2/14/2014 10:03:38 PM, SeventhProfessor wrote:
At 2/14/2014 10:02:25 PM, dtaylor971 wrote:
RoyLatham voted all seven points in favor of pro, and that's why everyone did it.

That was actually what surprised me the most.

To put this somewhat delicately:

If I made a list of the top 20 fairest and best judges on this site, Roy would not make the list. He would obviously, however, make my list of top 5 debaters.

The reason for Roy's exclusion would be: inability to put his own topic-bias out of his decision and voting too many points to the winning side (compared to the standard on DDO of only voting arguments and sources, except in extreme cases).

http://gyazo.com...
bluesteel
Posts: 12,301
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2/15/2014 7:46:32 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/14/2014 10:00:32 PM, SeventhProfessor wrote:
Was it really common in the past? Before RFDs were required and people could vote for themselves, it seems like most votes were VBs. For example, here's the debate that brought me to DDO while researching for a school project: https://www.debate.org...

Neither debater did noticeably better in S/G nor conduct, yet several voters voted in those categories.

Yes, voting was worse before comments were required. Forcing people to justify their votes helped. I also think that you now have to do at least 3 debates before you can vote. At least, that was a requirement at one point. In theory, you could create a fake account to vote bomb people you didn't like. Typically, new accounts would vote all 7 points to the side they agreed with (without even reading the debate). Even with comments (but before the 3 debate requirement) this still happened because people just don't understand the site. They think: "oh people wrote a bunch of stuff, but I hate abortion, so I vote Con." There were still RFD's like this at one point.

Vote bombing isn't gone. You can see my debate with Mirza about his strategic voting behavior on my debate with innomen (that resulted in me losing at the last second, even though I won more total judges and more high profile ones).

Ultimately, I still disagree with how debates are scored. As a former debater, I will always believe that arguments are the only way to score a debate (good sources, good spelling/grammar, and good conduct all just go to how convincing the argument was). But I've always been fought on that. My issue was always that established DDO members tend to only vote the argument point (such as thett) so it's unfair when newer members vote 5 or 6 against you but tons of older members only vote 3 in your favor. The person with more total people convinced to their side should be the winner... At least, imo. Total judges > total points win.

Also, as a fun historical note, there was once no voting tab at all. You couldn't see who had voted for you and how many points [before my time...]. Vote bombing was much worse back then and there were some embarassments of established members when the voting tab was added retroactively, so you could see on old debates who voted against you (and some strategic voting was revealed).
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)
bluesteel
Posts: 12,301
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2/15/2014 7:54:29 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/15/2014 7:43:46 PM, Mikal wrote:
At 2/15/2014 7:39:41 PM, bluesteel wrote:
At 2/14/2014 10:03:38 PM, SeventhProfessor wrote:
At 2/14/2014 10:02:25 PM, dtaylor971 wrote:
RoyLatham voted all seven points in favor of pro, and that's why everyone did it.

That was actually what surprised me the most.

To put this somewhat delicately:

If I made a list of the top 20 fairest and best judges on this site, Roy would not make the list. He would obviously, however, make my list of top 5 debaters.

The reason for Roy's exclusion would be: inability to put his own topic-bias out of his decision and voting too many points to the winning side (compared to the standard on DDO of only voting arguments and sources, except in extreme cases).

http://gyazo.com...

I thought I had put it delicately. He's not the worst, but he's not the best judge on the site. It seems almost axiomatic to argue that being a good debater doesn't necessarily make you a good judge. I did debate for a long time, and I've seen a lot of judges who are unable to put their own views on a topic out of their mind while voting. So I don't hold this against Roy. It's hard and taken me years in the debate community to learn this skill.

It's come up for me personally twice, on conservative-issue topics, where Roy voted for a 14-year old with limited language skills over me due to arguments that were not made (but in his own personal knowledge of the topic). This also isn't news. I addressed these issues with Roy when they happened.
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)