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donald.keller
Posts: 3,709
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2/15/2014 4:53:12 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Have you ever changed someone's opinion before on this site? Not on small issues, but on a MAJOR issue like Gay Marriage, Abortion, Immigration, and so on?
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Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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2/15/2014 5:51:14 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/15/2014 4:53:12 PM, donald.keller wrote:
Have you ever changed someone's opinion before on this site? Not on small issues, but on a MAJOR issue like Gay Marriage, Abortion, Immigration, and so on?

Some of these debates are starting to change my mind on abortion. I was pretty anti-abortion now I'm on the fence about it.
donald.keller
Posts: 3,709
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2/15/2014 5:54:26 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/15/2014 5:51:14 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 2/15/2014 4:53:12 PM, donald.keller wrote:
Have you ever changed someone's opinion before on this site? Not on small issues, but on a MAJOR issue like Gay Marriage, Abortion, Immigration, and so on?

Some of these debates are starting to change my mind on abortion. I was pretty anti-abortion now I'm on the fence about it.

I changed someone's mind with an Abortion debate once... I was con. Proudest moment of my life.
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Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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2/15/2014 6:01:19 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/15/2014 5:54:26 PM, donald.keller wrote:
At 2/15/2014 5:51:14 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 2/15/2014 4:53:12 PM, donald.keller wrote:
Have you ever changed someone's opinion before on this site? Not on small issues, but on a MAJOR issue like Gay Marriage, Abortion, Immigration, and so on?

Some of these debates are starting to change my mind on abortion. I was pretty anti-abortion now I'm on the fence about it.

I changed someone's mind with an Abortion debate once... I was con. Proudest moment of my life.

I actually worry that my debates might change someone's mind. Like the one I did on the unabomber.
donald.keller
Posts: 3,709
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2/15/2014 6:03:23 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/15/2014 6:01:19 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 2/15/2014 5:54:26 PM, donald.keller wrote:
At 2/15/2014 5:51:14 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 2/15/2014 4:53:12 PM, donald.keller wrote:
Have you ever changed someone's opinion before on this site? Not on small issues, but on a MAJOR issue like Gay Marriage, Abortion, Immigration, and so on?

Some of these debates are starting to change my mind on abortion. I was pretty anti-abortion now I'm on the fence about it.

I changed someone's mind with an Abortion debate once... I was con. Proudest moment of my life.

I actually worry that my debates might change someone's mind. Like the one I did on the unabomber.

You shouldn't worry unless you are playing devil advocate.
-- Don't forget to submit your unvoted debates to the Voter's Union --

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Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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2/15/2014 6:04:45 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/15/2014 6:03:23 PM, donald.keller wrote:
At 2/15/2014 6:01:19 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 2/15/2014 5:54:26 PM, donald.keller wrote:
At 2/15/2014 5:51:14 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 2/15/2014 4:53:12 PM, donald.keller wrote:
Have you ever changed someone's opinion before on this site? Not on small issues, but on a MAJOR issue like Gay Marriage, Abortion, Immigration, and so on?

Some of these debates are starting to change my mind on abortion. I was pretty anti-abortion now I'm on the fence about it.

I changed someone's mind with an Abortion debate once... I was con. Proudest moment of my life.

I actually worry that my debates might change someone's mind. Like the one I did on the unabomber.

You shouldn't worry unless you are playing devil advocate.

I usually am playing Devil's advocate.
donald.keller
Posts: 3,709
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2/15/2014 6:24:30 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/15/2014 6:04:45 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 2/15/2014 6:03:23 PM, donald.keller wrote:
At 2/15/2014 6:01:19 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 2/15/2014 5:54:26 PM, donald.keller wrote:
At 2/15/2014 5:51:14 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 2/15/2014 4:53:12 PM, donald.keller wrote:
Have you ever changed someone's opinion before on this site? Not on small issues, but on a MAJOR issue like Gay Marriage, Abortion, Immigration, and so on?

Some of these debates are starting to change my mind on abortion. I was pretty anti-abortion now I'm on the fence about it.

I changed someone's mind with an Abortion debate once... I was con. Proudest moment of my life.

I actually worry that my debates might change someone's mind. Like the one I did on the unabomber.

You shouldn't worry unless you are playing devil advocate.

I usually am playing Devil's advocate.

ooooh
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sadolite
Posts: 8,834
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2/15/2014 6:35:47 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
No I have never changed anyone's mind. I don't want to. I want people to suffer the consequences of their views and actions so they are not repeated like history. People learn nothing without suffering.
It's not your views that divide us, it's what you think my views should be that divides us.

If you think I will give up my rights and forsake social etiquette to make you "FEEL" better you are sadly mistaken

If liberal democrats would just stop shooting people gun violence would drop by 90%
Tophatdoc
Posts: 534
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2/15/2014 6:43:18 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/15/2014 6:35:47 PM, sadolite wrote:
People learn nothing without suffering.

It appears your stating one of my core views. We learn more from pain than anything else.
"Don't click on my profile. Don't send me friend requests. Don't read my debates. There are many interesting people on DDO. Find one of them. Go find someone exciting and loquacious. Go click on their profile. Go send them friend requests. Go read their debates. Leave me alone." -Tophatdoc
NiqashMotawadi3
Posts: 1,895
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2/15/2014 6:49:40 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/15/2014 6:35:47 PM, sadolite wrote:
No I have never changed anyone's mind. I don't want to. I want people to suffer the consequences of their views and actions so they are not repeated like history. People learn nothing without suffering.

Would you suffer from your view that humans can only learn or attain knowledge through Operant conditioning?
sadolite
Posts: 8,834
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2/15/2014 6:51:27 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/15/2014 6:43:18 PM, Tophatdoc wrote:
At 2/15/2014 6:35:47 PM, sadolite wrote:
People learn nothing without suffering.

It appears your stating one of my core views. We learn more from pain than anything else.

Yep. The bad part with me though was my endurance for pain. So it took me well into my 30's to see the light about a great many things. After all that suffering, life is so clear and easy now. Decisions are made in seconds and they are correct 99% of the time. They only ones I get wrong are the emotion based ones. I still have yet to learn that lesson. Never ever make a decision based on feeling or emotion no matter how much the person in front of you is balling their eyes out. I don't think I will ever conquer that one. I am getting much better at it though.
It's not your views that divide us, it's what you think my views should be that divides us.

If you think I will give up my rights and forsake social etiquette to make you "FEEL" better you are sadly mistaken

If liberal democrats would just stop shooting people gun violence would drop by 90%
sadolite
Posts: 8,834
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2/15/2014 6:53:38 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/15/2014 6:49:40 PM, NiqashMotawadi3 wrote:
At 2/15/2014 6:35:47 PM, sadolite wrote:
No I have never changed anyone's mind. I don't want to. I want people to suffer the consequences of their views and actions so they are not repeated like history. People learn nothing without suffering.

Would you suffer from your view that humans can only learn or attain knowledge through Operant conditioning?

I don't think you understand, No I think you do understand what I am talking about. So you know that this question is out of context
It's not your views that divide us, it's what you think my views should be that divides us.

If you think I will give up my rights and forsake social etiquette to make you "FEEL" better you are sadly mistaken

If liberal democrats would just stop shooting people gun violence would drop by 90%
NiqashMotawadi3
Posts: 1,895
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2/15/2014 7:00:18 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/15/2014 6:43:18 PM, Tophatdoc wrote:
At 2/15/2014 6:35:47 PM, sadolite wrote:
People learn nothing without suffering.

It appears your stating one of my core views. We learn more from pain than anything else.

It seems to me that the "fear of pain" is more effective than pain itself, though obviously you need to experience pain in some form, in order to start fearing it.
Tophatdoc
Posts: 534
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2/15/2014 7:03:40 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/15/2014 7:00:18 PM, NiqashMotawadi3 wrote:
At 2/15/2014 6:43:18 PM, Tophatdoc wrote:
At 2/15/2014 6:35:47 PM, sadolite wrote:
People learn nothing without suffering.

It appears your stating one of my core views. We learn more from pain than anything else.

It seems to me that the "fear of pain" is more effective than pain itself, though obviously you need to experience pain in some form, in order to start fearing it.

One doesn't need pain to have the fear of it. I have never been mauled by a bear. But I will make sure I never go within a hundred feet of one if possible.
"Don't click on my profile. Don't send me friend requests. Don't read my debates. There are many interesting people on DDO. Find one of them. Go find someone exciting and loquacious. Go click on their profile. Go send them friend requests. Go read their debates. Leave me alone." -Tophatdoc
GodChoosesLife
Posts: 3,461
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2/15/2014 7:06:45 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/15/2014 4:53:12 PM, donald.keller wrote:
Have you ever changed someone's opinion before on this site? Not on small issues, but on a MAJOR issue like Gay Marriage, Abortion, Immigration, and so on?

mmmm, not sure if I have or have not??...
Better than deserved, as ALWAYS.
"The strongest principle of growth lies in human choices."
"The Lord doesn't promise us a perfect life that is free of problems, but he does promise that He'll get us through anything." ~SweeTea
"Good Times" ~ Max
"If Jesus isn't in heaven, then it's not heaven; instead, it's hell." ~anonymous
"Suffering is unimaginably confusing, but it's a way to be drawn closer to God" ~Me
"Tell me what consumes your heart most, and I'll tell you who your God is." ~Dad
Tophatdoc
Posts: 534
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2/15/2014 7:09:29 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/15/2014 6:51:27 PM, sadolite wrote:

Yep. The bad part with me though was my endurance for pain. So it took me well into my 30's to see the light about a great many things. After all that suffering, life is so clear and easy now. Decisions are made in seconds and they are correct 99% of the time. They only ones I get wrong are the emotion based ones. I still have yet to learn that lesson. Never ever make a decision based on feeling or emotion no matter how much the person in front of you is balling their eyes out. I don't think I will ever conquer that one. I am getting much better at it though.

Why won't you conquer decisions based on emotion? It also seems that your suggesting that others should conquer it. Would that not be as difficult for them as it is for you?
"Don't click on my profile. Don't send me friend requests. Don't read my debates. There are many interesting people on DDO. Find one of them. Go find someone exciting and loquacious. Go click on their profile. Go send them friend requests. Go read their debates. Leave me alone." -Tophatdoc
sadolite
Posts: 8,834
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2/15/2014 7:09:38 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Operant conditioning Is not learning by ones own free will and suffering the consequences of ones own choices. Knowing the level of suffering for ones decisions before hand will teach them nothing but rather how much suffering they are willing to endure to make bad choices.
It's not your views that divide us, it's what you think my views should be that divides us.

If you think I will give up my rights and forsake social etiquette to make you "FEEL" better you are sadly mistaken

If liberal democrats would just stop shooting people gun violence would drop by 90%
sadolite
Posts: 8,834
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2/15/2014 7:10:26 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/15/2014 7:09:29 PM, Tophatdoc wrote:
At 2/15/2014 6:51:27 PM, sadolite wrote:

Yep. The bad part with me though was my endurance for pain. So it took me well into my 30's to see the light about a great many things. After all that suffering, life is so clear and easy now. Decisions are made in seconds and they are correct 99% of the time. They only ones I get wrong are the emotion based ones. I still have yet to learn that lesson. Never ever make a decision based on feeling or emotion no matter how much the person in front of you is balling their eyes out. I don't think I will ever conquer that one. I am getting much better at it though.

Why won't you conquer decisions based on emotion? It also seems that your suggesting that others should conquer it. Would that not be as difficult for them as it is for you?

I am a flawed human
It's not your views that divide us, it's what you think my views should be that divides us.

If you think I will give up my rights and forsake social etiquette to make you "FEEL" better you are sadly mistaken

If liberal democrats would just stop shooting people gun violence would drop by 90%
Tophatdoc
Posts: 534
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2/15/2014 7:12:31 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/15/2014 7:10:26 PM, sadolite wrote:
At 2/15/2014 7:09:29 PM, Tophatdoc wrote:
At 2/15/2014 6:51:27 PM, sadolite wrote:

Yep. The bad part with me though was my endurance for pain. So it took me well into my 30's to see the light about a great many things. After all that suffering, life is so clear and easy now. Decisions are made in seconds and they are correct 99% of the time. They only ones I get wrong are the emotion based ones. I still have yet to learn that lesson. Never ever make a decision based on feeling or emotion no matter how much the person in front of you is balling their eyes out. I don't think I will ever conquer that one. I am getting much better at it though.

Why won't you conquer decisions based on emotion? It also seems that your suggesting that others should conquer it. Would that not be as difficult for them as it is for you?

I am a flawed human

Fair point. I have yet to find the perfect one. If that person exists........
"Don't click on my profile. Don't send me friend requests. Don't read my debates. There are many interesting people on DDO. Find one of them. Go find someone exciting and loquacious. Go click on their profile. Go send them friend requests. Go read their debates. Leave me alone." -Tophatdoc
NiqashMotawadi3
Posts: 1,895
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2/15/2014 7:13:52 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/15/2014 7:03:40 PM, Tophatdoc wrote:
At 2/15/2014 7:00:18 PM, NiqashMotawadi3 wrote:
At 2/15/2014 6:43:18 PM, Tophatdoc wrote:
At 2/15/2014 6:35:47 PM, sadolite wrote:
People learn nothing without suffering.

It appears your stating one of my core views. We learn more from pain than anything else.

It seems to me that the "fear of pain" is more effective than pain itself, though obviously you need to experience pain in some form, in order to start fearing it.

One doesn't need pain to have the fear of it. I have never been mauled by a bear. But I will make sure I never go within a hundred feet of one if possible.

if you never had any experiences with pain (emotional or physical), then you would not know what pain is, and so you would only be scared of the bear because it could take your life away and because of how it looks and other things like that, but not because it could cause you pain, for in that case, you would not even know that pain exists.
NiqashMotawadi3
Posts: 1,895
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2/15/2014 7:16:57 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/15/2014 7:13:52 PM, NiqashMotawadi3 wrote:
At 2/15/2014 7:03:40 PM, Tophatdoc wrote:
At 2/15/2014 7:00:18 PM, NiqashMotawadi3 wrote:
At 2/15/2014 6:43:18 PM, Tophatdoc wrote:
At 2/15/2014 6:35:47 PM, sadolite wrote:
People learn nothing without suffering.

It appears your stating one of my core views. We learn more from pain than anything else.

It seems to me that the "fear of pain" is more effective than pain itself, though obviously you need to experience pain in some form, in order to start fearing it.

One doesn't need pain to have the fear of it. I have never been mauled by a bear. But I will make sure I never go within a hundred feet of one if possible.

if you never had any experiences with pain (emotional or physical), then you would not know what pain is, and so you would only be scared of the bear because it could take your life away and because of how it looks and other things like that, but not because it could cause you pain, for in that case, you would not even know that pain exists.

Experiences, in this sense, are not just direct experiences, but could involve the "emotional pain" you get when seeing others suffer.
Ragnar
Posts: 1,658
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2/15/2014 7:17:40 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I've convinced the audience of a few matters... Oh I turned one of my opponents into a germaphobe.
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sadolite
Posts: 8,834
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2/15/2014 7:17:40 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Suffering is not limited to physical pain, that is actually really just common sense crap. The suffering I am talking about is loss of connections, loss of income, loss of credibility, loss of character and other people suffering because of you.
It's not your views that divide us, it's what you think my views should be that divides us.

If you think I will give up my rights and forsake social etiquette to make you "FEEL" better you are sadly mistaken

If liberal democrats would just stop shooting people gun violence would drop by 90%
Tophatdoc
Posts: 534
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2/15/2014 7:20:38 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/15/2014 7:13:52 PM, NiqashMotawadi3 wrote:
At 2/15/2014 7:03:40 PM, Tophatdoc wrote:
At 2/15/2014 7:00:18 PM, NiqashMotawadi3 wrote:
At 2/15/2014 6:43:18 PM, Tophatdoc wrote:
At 2/15/2014 6:35:47 PM, sadolite wrote:
People learn nothing without suffering.

It appears your stating one of my core views. We learn more from pain than anything else.

It seems to me that the "fear of pain" is more effective than pain itself, though obviously you need to experience pain in some form, in order to start fearing it.

One doesn't need pain to have the fear of it. I have never been mauled by a bear. But I will make sure I never go within a hundred feet of one if possible.

if you never had any experiences with pain (emotional or physical), then you would not know what pain is, and so you would only be scared of the bear because it could take your life away and because of how it looks and other things like that, but not because it could cause you pain, for in that case, you would not even know that pain exists.

Understood. I think your referring to the concept of pain rather than pain from a particular entity.

If someone is scared of a bear because it could take their life or how it looks, the person is scared nevertheless of the consequences of interacting with the bear. Therefore they are subconsciously acknowledge the existence of pain. If they do not know or posses any knowledge of pain; then there should be no reason to fear the bear at all.
"Don't click on my profile. Don't send me friend requests. Don't read my debates. There are many interesting people on DDO. Find one of them. Go find someone exciting and loquacious. Go click on their profile. Go send them friend requests. Go read their debates. Leave me alone." -Tophatdoc
bluesteel
Posts: 12,301
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2/15/2014 7:28:51 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/15/2014 5:51:14 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 2/15/2014 4:53:12 PM, donald.keller wrote:
Have you ever changed someone's opinion before on this site? Not on small issues, but on a MAJOR issue like Gay Marriage, Abortion, Immigration, and so on?

Some of these debates are starting to change my mind on abortion. I was pretty anti-abortion now I'm on the fence about it.

If you want more reading, here's my old abortion debate: http://www.debate.org...

The argument I think you should read is the policy-based one: that outlawing abortion has little effect on whether women actually get them, but only affects how safe they are (back-alley vs. in a doctor's office). This isn't just an assertion - it's based on a study of abortion rates in countries where it is legal vs. illegal. So you can abortion, but the net effect is just to have more women die attempting to have illegal ones; the net effect is not to have more babies carried to term.

I'd also like to debate someone again on the morality issue. I think I've come to realize that debating the semantics of what a "person" is = irrelevant. There are morally permissible times that you can kill another person (e.g. war). The question is whether a "person" who cannot feel pain and has no consciousness counts as another special exception to when you can deprive another person of life.

Abortion is a less extreme example of the self-defense doctrine. Self-defense = a threat to your autonomy (right to life) outweighs another person's right to live. Being forced (by the state) to have a baby is just a less extreme infringement on autonomy than is death, but that doesn't mean the calculus automatically comes out in favor of the fetus' right to life.

Anyway, I don't know how that debate would play out, but I'm kind of interested in seeing.
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)
bluesteel
Posts: 12,301
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2/15/2014 7:32:21 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/15/2014 4:53:12 PM, donald.keller wrote:
Have you ever changed someone's opinion before on this site? Not on small issues, but on a MAJOR issue like Gay Marriage, Abortion, Immigration, and so on?

Yes, I have had voters a few times say that I changed their opinion on something, but not on a major wedge issue (like guns, abortion, or God).

I have never had my opinion changed by a single debate, by itself. But talking with LaissezFaire convinced me that the AnCap position is not as stupid as I originally thought. I thought I was AnCap for awhile, until I realized how horrible our country would be without antitrust laws and a lot of other things the government does.
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)
NiqashMotawadi3
Posts: 1,895
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2/15/2014 7:43:57 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
If they do not know or posses any knowledge of pain; then there should be no reason to fear the bear at all.

I'm not sure about that. People could still fear painless death just because it means that they would end. I seem to think that "fear of death" and "fear of pain" are two different things.
sadolite
Posts: 8,834
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2/15/2014 7:55:06 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/15/2014 7:43:57 PM, NiqashMotawadi3 wrote:
If they do not know or posses any knowledge of pain; then there should be no reason to fear the bear at all.

I'm not sure about that. People could still fear painless death just because it means that they would end. I seem to think that "fear of death" and "fear of pain" are two different things.

They are.
It's not your views that divide us, it's what you think my views should be that divides us.

If you think I will give up my rights and forsake social etiquette to make you "FEEL" better you are sadly mistaken

If liberal democrats would just stop shooting people gun violence would drop by 90%