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Frustrated

kbub
Posts: 1,377
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3/12/2014 3:10:11 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I feel like I'm constantly having to both lead horses to water and make them drink. I can see why change is such a painstaking process, especially when it seems like one is constantly forced to beg for understanding. Minorities do not have the "burden of proof" to make others act ethically. Each one of you has a personal responsibility to evaluate the ethics of your own actions. I should not have to coerce people into responsibility and understanding, but over and over again I feel like I'm put in that position.

Therefore, please recognize that anti-black racism is a widespread, contemporary problem, that sexism against women is a widespread, contemporary problem, that anti-immigrant racism is a widespread, contemporary problem, and that anti-queer discrimination and hate is a widespread, contemporary problem. YOU are responsible for determining fairly whether or not these things are true. IT IS NOT THE RESPONSIBILITY OF MINORITIES TO PROVE THEIR OPPRESSION TO OTHERS OR FORCE OTHERS TO ACT ETHICALLY!!!

*Heavy sigh*

Soapbox over.

Feel free to comment. I'll comment back if I feel like it.
YYW
Posts: 36,426
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3/12/2014 4:09:48 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/12/2014 3:10:11 PM, kbub wrote:
IT IS NOT THE RESPONSIBILITY OF MINORITIES TO PROVE THEIR OPPRESSION TO OTHERS OR FORCE OTHERS TO ACT ETHICALLY!!!

If not them, then who?
Tsar of DDO
kbub
Posts: 1,377
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3/12/2014 4:20:05 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/12/2014 4:09:48 PM, YYW wrote:
At 3/12/2014 3:10:11 PM, kbub wrote:
IT IS NOT THE RESPONSIBILITY OF MINORITIES TO PROVE THEIR OPPRESSION TO OTHERS OR FORCE OTHERS TO ACT ETHICALLY!!!

If not them, then who?

Themselves. We each have a responsibility to be ethical. Of course minorities ought to be allowed to stand up for themselves. But that doesn't mean that they should be the only one's to demand ethics. Everyone has a obligation to be ethical--waiting around for some minority to "prove" a social wrong is idiotic. One needs to take responsibility for one's own actions. People should evaluate whether racism exists instead demanding that someone else prove it.
LuckyStars
Posts: 244
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3/12/2014 4:41:06 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Our principle came to our class today and started talking about how to many racist comments were being made, and how it's really not even tolerable at this point.

he did however admit that probably a huge amount of it was just joking.
ConservativePolitico
Posts: 8,210
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3/12/2014 5:15:31 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
There are three types of people in your situation:

1. The racist/discriminator
2. The indifferent person
3. The victim

What you're supposing is that the victim does not need to explain the racism being displayed against them. However, this leaves only the racist and the indifferent person to raise awareness. We cannot count on the racist to raise such awareness, because if they could evaluate themselves and change as you propose, they would have already. The indifferent person either doesn't know or doesn't care and also is not in a strong position to raise awareness.

This leaves the victims. Only the victims can pipe up and cause the indifferent to take notice and cause the racists to feel remorse. That is why people pin it on victims to explain themselves.

As YYW said, if not the victim then who? If we could all fix our vices just by reflecting ethically as you submit, the world would be a perfect place.
kbub
Posts: 1,377
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3/12/2014 6:34:57 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/12/2014 5:15:31 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
There are three types of people in your situation:

1. The racist/discriminator
2. The indifferent person
3. The victim

What you're supposing is that the victim does not need to explain the racism being displayed against them. However, this leaves only the racist and the indifferent person to raise awareness. We cannot count on the racist to raise such awareness, because if they could evaluate themselves and change as you propose, they would have already. The indifferent person either doesn't know or doesn't care and also is not in a strong position to raise awareness.

This leaves the victims. Only the victims can pipe up and cause the indifferent to take notice and cause the racists to feel remorse. That is why people pin it on victims to explain themselves.

As YYW said, if not the victim then who? If we could all fix our vices just by reflecting ethically as you submit, the world would be a perfect place.

Please don't misunderstand me. I do think the victim should speak up. However, I also think that everyone should evaluate for themselves whether their beliefs are right or wrong.

When I was writing this post I had a particular example in mind of a DDO debater who insisted that I needed to "prove" that something is racist before s/he would consider it to be racist. This person decided that in the absence of proof s/he would take a default position of denial.

To me, the evidence of racism is painfully obvious, and even if it is not a few google searches can easily change that. Therefore, it confuses my why, because I appear to be a person of color, I am representative of the minority cause. "Take some darn responsiblilty yourself!" I want to shout to this person.
ConservativePolitico
Posts: 8,210
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3/12/2014 6:36:27 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/12/2014 6:34:57 PM, kbub wrote:
At 3/12/2014 5:15:31 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
There are three types of people in your situation:

1. The racist/discriminator
2. The indifferent person
3. The victim

What you're supposing is that the victim does not need to explain the racism being displayed against them. However, this leaves only the racist and the indifferent person to raise awareness. We cannot count on the racist to raise such awareness, because if they could evaluate themselves and change as you propose, they would have already. The indifferent person either doesn't know or doesn't care and also is not in a strong position to raise awareness.

This leaves the victims. Only the victims can pipe up and cause the indifferent to take notice and cause the racists to feel remorse. That is why people pin it on victims to explain themselves.

As YYW said, if not the victim then who? If we could all fix our vices just by reflecting ethically as you submit, the world would be a perfect place.

Please don't misunderstand me. I do think the victim should speak up. However, I also think that everyone should evaluate for themselves whether their beliefs are right or wrong.

When I was writing this post I had a particular example in mind of a DDO debater who insisted that I needed to "prove" that something is racist before s/he would consider it to be racist. This person decided that in the absence of proof s/he would take a default position of denial.

To me, the evidence of racism is painfully obvious, and even if it is not a few google searches can easily change that. Therefore, it confuses my why, because I appear to be a person of color, I am representative of the minority cause. "Take some darn responsiblilty yourself!" I want to shout to this person.

People can't evaluate their own beliefs. They find their beliefs correct. They need outside influence to show them if they're right or wrong. I personally, probably won't come to some random genesis where my believes change a priori.
kbub
Posts: 1,377
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3/12/2014 6:38:24 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/12/2014 6:36:27 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
At 3/12/2014 6:34:57 PM, kbub wrote:
At 3/12/2014 5:15:31 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
There are three types of people in your situation:

1. The racist/discriminator
2. The indifferent person
3. The victim

What you're supposing is that the victim does not need to explain the racism being displayed against them. However, this leaves only the racist and the indifferent person to raise awareness. We cannot count on the racist to raise such awareness, because if they could evaluate themselves and change as you propose, they would have already. The indifferent person either doesn't know or doesn't care and also is not in a strong position to raise awareness.

This leaves the victims. Only the victims can pipe up and cause the indifferent to take notice and cause the racists to feel remorse. That is why people pin it on victims to explain themselves.

As YYW said, if not the victim then who? If we could all fix our vices just by reflecting ethically as you submit, the world would be a perfect place.

Please don't misunderstand me. I do think the victim should speak up. However, I also think that everyone should evaluate for themselves whether their beliefs are right or wrong.

When I was writing this post I had a particular example in mind of a DDO debater who insisted that I needed to "prove" that something is racist before s/he would consider it to be racist. This person decided that in the absence of proof s/he would take a default position of denial.

To me, the evidence of racism is painfully obvious, and even if it is not a few google searches can easily change that. Therefore, it confuses my why, because I appear to be a person of color, I am representative of the minority cause. "Take some darn responsiblilty yourself!" I want to shout to this person.

People can't evaluate their own beliefs. They find their beliefs correct. They need outside influence to show them if they're right or wrong. I personally, probably won't come to some random genesis where my believes change a priori.

Certainly. What I had in mind was not a revelation but a reevaluation, not an a priori change but an a posteriori change.
ADreamOfLiberty
Posts: 1,570
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3/13/2014 3:34:54 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/12/2014 6:34:57 PM, kbub wrote:
At 3/12/2014 5:15:31 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
There are three types of people in your situation:

1. The racist/discriminator
2. The indifferent person
3. The victim

What you're supposing is that the victim does not need to explain the racism being displayed against them. However, this leaves only the racist and the indifferent person to raise awareness. We cannot count on the racist to raise such awareness, because if they could evaluate themselves and change as you propose, they would have already. The indifferent person either doesn't know or doesn't care and also is not in a strong position to raise awareness.

This leaves the victims. Only the victims can pipe up and cause the indifferent to take notice and cause the racists to feel remorse. That is why people pin it on victims to explain themselves.

As YYW said, if not the victim then who? If we could all fix our vices just by reflecting ethically as you submit, the world would be a perfect place.

Please don't misunderstand me. I do think the victim should speak up. However, I also think that everyone should evaluate for themselves whether their beliefs are right or wrong.

When I was writing this post I had a particular example in mind of a DDO debater who insisted that I needed to "prove" that something is racist before s/he would consider it to be racist. This person decided that in the absence of proof s/he would take a default position of denial.

To me, the evidence of racism is painfully obvious, and even if it is not a few google searches can easily change that. Therefore, it confuses my why, because I appear to be a person of color, I am representative of the minority cause. "Take some darn responsiblilty yourself!" I want to shout to this person.

We can fix our vices by reflecting on ethics, but people will not reflect on actions that are not their own and which they have not encountered, not naturally.

How many people here do you suppose even thought about bestiality other than in reference to a joke in their entire lives before I treated it like a serious subject? How many got angry that I treated it seriously and tried to keep thinking of it as a joke?

I can sit and contemplate their lack of imagination all day but that isn't going to spark any ethical reflection on their part.

Now of course people should take the default opinion that something is not racist, to say otherwise is to say that everything is racist until proven otherwise which is a clear violation of BoP rules. (racism is not a negative)

Whether they should have thought about it themselves is actually irrelevant, the BoP in their own minds is no different than when they are debating someone else. Something needs to be demonstrably racist before you can be justified in calling it racist.

When people don't run into racism in their personal lives, they will tend to believe does not exist for the most part. If you say it still does you are going to need some evidence.
LOL, yeah, it's pretty amazing how they think they can "reason" with you. - Sidewalker, speaking of advocates for sexual deviancy.

So, my advice, Liberty, is to go somewhere else. Leave, and never come back. - YYW

And that's what I did. Contact me at http://www.edeb8.com... by the same user name if you have anything you'd like to say.
AnDoctuir
Posts: 11,060
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3/13/2014 4:08:58 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Make an art of your protests, dude. That way you always take some sense of accomplishment from them, and it lessens frustration. I mean you're only human, it's not like anyone is expecting you to do it all on your own. Your mind is programmed towards results, manipulation to an effect, that's just basic living, appease it.
AnDoctuir
Posts: 11,060
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3/13/2014 4:10:24 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Not that a person can't transcend that basic living completely and take full control over themselves, but baby steps man, and being angry sucks.
AnDoctuir
Posts: 11,060
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3/13/2014 4:20:16 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Anger is also a very negative trait when it comes to convincing people of anything. People are concerned primarily with the physical and anger is then is associated with violence by that very basic level of human rationality and denied in its entirety as anything good most commonly. It's hard to use it correctly, and even when you do, there's an immorality to it.
kbub
Posts: 1,377
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3/13/2014 7:33:42 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/13/2014 3:34:54 AM, ADreamOfLiberty wrote:
At 3/12/2014 6:34:57 PM, kbub wrote:
At 3/12/2014 5:15:31 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
There are three types of people in your situation:

1. The racist/discriminator
2. The indifferent person
3. The victim

What you're supposing is that the victim does not need to explain the racism being displayed against them. However, this leaves only the racist and the indifferent person to raise awareness. We cannot count on the racist to raise such awareness, because if they could evaluate themselves and change as you propose, they would have already. The indifferent person either doesn't know or doesn't care and also is not in a strong position to raise awareness.

This leaves the victims. Only the victims can pipe up and cause the indifferent to take notice and cause the racists to feel remorse. That is why people pin it on victims to explain themselves.

As YYW said, if not the victim then who? If we could all fix our vices just by reflecting ethically as you submit, the world would be a perfect place.

Please don't misunderstand me. I do think the victim should speak up. However, I also think that everyone should evaluate for themselves whether their beliefs are right or wrong.

When I was writing this post I had a particular example in mind of a DDO debater who insisted that I needed to "prove" that something is racist before s/he would consider it to be racist. This person decided that in the absence of proof s/he would take a default position of denial.

To me, the evidence of racism is painfully obvious, and even if it is not a few google searches can easily change that. Therefore, it confuses my why, because I appear to be a person of color, I am representative of the minority cause. "Take some darn responsiblilty yourself!" I want to shout to this person.

We can fix our vices by reflecting on ethics, but people will not reflect on actions that are not their own and which they have not encountered, not naturally.

How many people here do you suppose even thought about bestiality other than in reference to a joke in their entire lives before I treated it like a serious subject? How many got angry that I treated it seriously and tried to keep thinking of it as a joke?

I can sit and contemplate their lack of imagination all day but that isn't going to spark any ethical reflection on their part.

Now of course people should take the default opinion that something is not racist, to say otherwise is to say that everything is racist until proven otherwise which is a clear violation of BoP rules. (racism is not a negative)

Whether they should have thought about it themselves is actually irrelevant, the BoP in their own minds is no different than when they are debating someone else. Something needs to be demonstrably racist before you can be justified in calling it racist.

When people don't run into racism in their personal lives, they will tend to believe does not exist for the most part. If you say it still does you are going to need some evidence.

I'm not sure you're reading what I'm writing carefully; we might actually be agreeing in some ways. I am saying that minorities should indeed stand up for themselves. However, I'm also saying that everyone has a responsibility for there own actions. For example, it is not the responsibility of black people to prove that racism exists to white people. They should, but it is not there responsibility, in the same way that it is not the responsibility of victims of bullying to prove that they are being bullied to the bully. Instead, the bully obviously is the one responsible, not the victim for failing to be convincing. Of course I believe that the victim should stand up for herself, but I also think that the bully is responsible no matter what the victim says or doesn't say.
kbub
Posts: 1,377
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3/13/2014 7:37:12 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/13/2014 4:08:58 AM, AnDoctuir wrote:
Make an art of your protests, dude.

That sincerely sounds inspiring. I haven't thought of it that way.

I think you might be missing the point of the article, though. I'm suggesting that I don't have to protest, even though I choose to. I am not responsible for the unethical actions of others--they are.

That way you always take some sense of accomplishment from them, and it lessens frustration. I mean you're only human, it's not like anyone is expecting you to do it all on your own. Your mind is programmed towards results, manipulation to an effect, that's just basic living, appease it.
AnDoctuir
Posts: 11,060
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3/13/2014 7:49:19 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/13/2014 7:37:12 AM, kbub wrote:
At 3/13/2014 4:08:58 AM, AnDoctuir wrote:
Make an art of your protests, dude.

That sincerely sounds inspiring. I haven't thought of it that way.

Glad I could help.

I think you might be missing the point of the article, though. I'm suggesting that I don't have to protest, even though I choose to. I am not responsible for the unethical actions of others--they are.

Agreed, to an extent. Still, people are going to be retarded for a long time to come, and holding your tongue isn't all that far from not caring.

That way you always take some sense of accomplishment from them, and it lessens frustration. I mean you're only human, it's not like anyone is expecting you to do it all on your own. Your mind is programmed towards results, manipulation to an effect, that's just basic living, appease it.
ADreamOfLiberty
Posts: 1,570
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3/13/2014 7:51:10 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/13/2014 7:33:42 AM, kbub wrote:
I'm not sure you're reading what I'm writing carefully

I tried to. It really did seem like you were saying that because blacks in general were/are victims they don't need to prove any assertions of victim hood. It's on the general population of non-blacks to be very proactive and never doubt an accusation of racism until they have personally gone out of their way to prove the presumed guilty party innocent.

That is not only racist but a violation of BoP rules (i.e. logic). If I misunderstood I apologize.

we might actually be agreeing in some ways. I am saying that minorities should indeed stand up for themselves. However, I'm also saying that everyone has a responsibility for there own actions.

For example, it is not the responsibility of black people to prove that racism exists to white people.

It is everyone's responsibility to prove any positive assertions they make. That includes assertions of racism, regardless of the race of the asserter.

They should, but it is not there responsibility, in the same way that it is not the responsibility of victims of bullying to prove that they are being bullied to the bully.

The bully should have had a rational and consistently applied morality so that he/she never became a bully that's true, and ignorance is not an excuse. But if you want a third party to believe you are being bullied you're going to need to prove it because that is a positive assertion.

Racist aren't going to doubt racism exist, they are going to embrace it and wish it expanded (even if they refuse to call it racism). You would only need to prove racism exists to someone who is not a racist.

Instead, the bully obviously is the one responsible, not the victim for failing to be convincing.

Correct, as the racist or bigot is responsible for being a racist or a bigot. But in any case the asserter, even if they are the victim are responsible for supporting their assertions. It is not 'either or' the responsibility accumulates from action regardless of each other.

Of course I believe that the victim should stand up for herself, but I also think that the bully is responsible no matter what the victim says or doesn't say.

Complete agreement.
LOL, yeah, it's pretty amazing how they think they can "reason" with you. - Sidewalker, speaking of advocates for sexual deviancy.

So, my advice, Liberty, is to go somewhere else. Leave, and never come back. - YYW

And that's what I did. Contact me at http://www.edeb8.com... by the same user name if you have anything you'd like to say.
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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3/13/2014 8:33:16 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Since I am assuming this is about me, I will posit my question here, which kbub has yet to answer:

How do I know if an act is racist?
What is the definition of racism?

In my discussion with her, she has made clear that she thinks disparate impact is evidence of racism, which I disagree with, since I think most of it is caused by related factors. For example, poor education stems from poverty (not caring about it) and low property tax revenue (poverty). That is not racism, although, the disparity is likely an effect of past racism (blacks being poor due to racism, now live in poverty still).

So, what ethics am I to assess? What actions do I need to acknowledge?
Further, as a privileged white man, if there is an accusation of racism, should I outright believe it is valid? In my experience, it has yet to be valid, both in politics I have seen on the internet, and my experience.

I have been called racist, and have, in court, been accused of being part of a racist environment. Yes, my actions were used as evidence to establish a hostile work environment in a racial discrimination suit.

According to kbub, I should re-evaluate my actions and ethics and figure it out for myself.
What were these actions? I worked at a pizza delivery shop, and we had car toppers we lit up. Now, there was a black man, who was the only black individual in the store (it's the suburbs, after all), and he has a special car topper because he had a sun roof on his car, so the magnets were adjusted specifically for his car. Since his car topper was one in eight, he was to put the topper against the wall.
On more than one occasion, I ended up with his topper, because it wasn't against the wall. On one of these occasions, this driver's fuse blew when he lit the topper (it happens), and upon seeing the puff of smoke, he unplugged the wire, and burnt his hand.

Obviously, this was a work of sabotage on my end coerced into it by my supervisors, because he was black and we didn't like him (and it is true that he was loathed by all), and the natural response was to call the police for assault. When he was unfairly fired (read: let go because he had no car for two weeks), he filed the lawsuit, as he did with his previous five employers.

So, it sounds like I should reassess my actions and thoughts about him, since I was being racist, right? Or, if not me, the store was racist in its treatment of him, and I should look at how that was allowed to happen, right?

Now, I think we will all agree this guy was crazy (which he was), and that that was not racism. However, this illustrates my overall point: how can I, as a white person, know that my actions are 1) detrimental to you, and 2) detrimental to you based on your race? I first have to trust the statement, and I don't trust things from strangers that challenge my opinions (let alone opinions of myself) just on their say so.

My whole engagement with kbub in this context was to assess whether racism is actually as widespread and systematic as she claims. If the claims of racism are from the guy who claimed my workplace was racist, then I see no merit in the claims.

This is not to say that racism does not effect individuals powerfully, but that I am not sold on the notion that 1) there are many racists out there plotting away, 2) that policies and actions are designed specifically because of racism or deny that racism exists, or 3) that disparate impact is prima facia racism.
My work here is, finally, done.