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Pls Rage at each other in PMS

Mikal
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3/14/2014 9:24:41 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
I don't know if you guys have read TUFS new forum topic but if not here it is.

http://www.debate.org...

Literally this is saying that juggle is putting resources into other sites as a priority. What this means is that DDO is on the back burner due to the amount of money the site is generating.

I am going to lay this out perfectly blunt and honest. Tuf, airmax, and myself are not giving up on trying to get some features implemented, but it just became increasingly difficult. Tuf and I are putting together a power point presentation using some business models to try and show them how they can generate more money by comparisons with other sites that have implemented some of these features and have seen success.

To do this we need your help. The last thing I want to do is push for this and when they take a look at the site, they end up seeing all these freaking rage wars in the main DDO page. I am linking them to different forum posts, debates, and everything that have generated a large amount of hits and comments and showing how and why they achieved it.

I really am scared they are going to look at the main page at this point and get turned off. I understand that users are not going to get along and will not like each other. If you see the need to argue and yell at each other pls do it in a PM, or at least challenge the person to a debate about what you are pissed about so we can mitigate some of the traffic on the main page for the time being. At least until we try and get this presentation pushed through, otherwise we may not see updates of any kind for a while.

We need the community as a whole to work together on this and try and pitch in any way possible. Sign up sheets are on another thread, and if you don't want to sign up that is cool as well. Just pls pls pls, stop spamming the main page with rage wars so we can try and push this crap through.
ConservativePolitico
Posts: 8,210
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3/14/2014 9:33:43 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Not to sound pessimistic but...

1. I think the forums is going to be the least of Juggle's worries. How about all the garbage debates, polls and opinions that clog the site's main page? Those aren't going away and reach a far greater audience than the forums ever will.

2. People who rage don't want to debate, that's why they rage. If they were going to debate civilly they would but they never do. Countless debate challenges go unheeded because people refuse to actually argue their points.

3. DDO is always on the back burner. I know you haven't been around as long as some of us have but the only significant changes we got were ones that were unasked for such as the aesthetic changes. A year or so ago they threw us a History and Funny forum. Yippee. Juggle has never cared about us and our cries go mostly unheeded in the wilderness.

4. I applaud your efforts but Juggle's own efforts is what is causing the site's population to grow and therefore decrease in value. The two groups want different things. Juggle wants traffic solely for monetary purposes, they don't care about the quality of traffic and therefore most likely doesn't care about the status of the forums. Don't get your hopes up.
Mikal
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3/14/2014 9:43:54 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/14/2014 9:33:43 AM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
Not to sound pessimistic but...

1. I think the forums is going to be the least of Juggle's worries. How about all the garbage debates, polls and opinions that clog the site's main page? Those aren't going away and reach a far greater audience than the forums ever will.

2. People who rage don't want to debate, that's why they rage. If they were going to debate civilly they would but they never do. Countless debate challenges go unheeded because people refuse to actually argue their points.

3. DDO is always on the back burner. I know you haven't been around as long as some of us have but the only significant changes we got were ones that were unasked for such as the aesthetic changes. A year or so ago they threw us a History and Funny forum. Yippee. Juggle has never cared about us and our cries go mostly unheeded in the wilderness.

4. I applaud your efforts but Juggle's own efforts is what is causing the site's population to grow and therefore decrease in value. The two groups want different things. Juggle wants traffic solely for monetary purposes, they don't care about the quality of traffic and therefore most likely doesn't care about the status of the forums. Don't get your hopes up.

(1) They want the garbage polls and opinions. Literally they want the traffic and everything with it. They like the thought of people coming in making a poll and leaving. They just want the people to come, and don't really care how. Still If we are going to advocate for site quality, and they happen to see that the main thread is (spammed) and I do mean spammed with rage sht. It is going to be counter productive.

(2) It doesn't have to be a debate, just a pm or in the misc section if it doesn't abridge the TOS. That is a max thing , not my thing. I would say pms.

(3+4) DDO has always been on the back burner because of revenue issues, but updates have been pushed through. If you look at the transformation of DDC to DDO, even to present day there have been countless updates. The forums, updated voting standards, etc and so forth. The site has received updates in the past and came receive them again. This PM is quantifying how difficult it is going to be thought. That PM is saying that they are pulling resources from DDO, not just that they are not going to update it like they have been. That is very, very, bad in all aspects.

That is why we are trying to show how site quality increases hits. We are going to have to accept the fact that site quality is going to have to go hand in hand with traffic if we want any updates, but we have to actually show them that is possible and how it is possible. That by offering up updates that some of these members want, they can see results from traffic

(ie big debates on the site, big polls, and other stuff are what get the random people to actually click the link to bring them here. If you remove the debates that are getting the hits which are normally big members whom are serious, then the site will not get many hits at all)

It is a long road but it is possible.
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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3/14/2014 9:53:32 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/14/2014 9:24:41 AM, Mikal wrote:
[STUFF]

I agree that the DDO forum seems to be the go-to forum for many posts, but that is in part due to the level of traffic Juggle demands. In other words, noobs posting there.

Regardless, one of the last threads you complained about being a flame war wasn't really a flame war, IMO, especially since the topic started with a legitimate, and apt for the forum, purpose of addressing what is and is not an ad hom fallacy.
My work here is, finally, done.
ConservativePolitico
Posts: 8,210
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3/14/2014 9:54:13 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/14/2014 9:43:54 AM, Mikal wrote:
At 3/14/2014 9:33:43 AM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
Not to sound pessimistic but...

1. I think the forums is going to be the least of Juggle's worries. How about all the garbage debates, polls and opinions that clog the site's main page? Those aren't going away and reach a far greater audience than the forums ever will.

2. People who rage don't want to debate, that's why they rage. If they were going to debate civilly they would but they never do. Countless debate challenges go unheeded because people refuse to actually argue their points.

3. DDO is always on the back burner. I know you haven't been around as long as some of us have but the only significant changes we got were ones that were unasked for such as the aesthetic changes. A year or so ago they threw us a History and Funny forum. Yippee. Juggle has never cared about us and our cries go mostly unheeded in the wilderness.

4. I applaud your efforts but Juggle's own efforts is what is causing the site's population to grow and therefore decrease in value. The two groups want different things. Juggle wants traffic solely for monetary purposes, they don't care about the quality of traffic and therefore most likely doesn't care about the status of the forums. Don't get your hopes up.

(1) They want the garbage polls and opinions. Literally they want the traffic and everything with it. They like the thought of people coming in making a poll and leaving. They just want the people to come, and don't really care how. Still If we are going to advocate for site quality, and they happen to see that the main thread is (spammed) and I do mean spammed with rage sht. It is going to be counter productive.

(2) It doesn't have to be a debate, just a pm or in the misc section if it doesn't abridge the TOS. That is a max thing , not my thing. I would say pms.

(3+4) DDO has always been on the back burner because of revenue issues, but updates have been pushed through. If you look at the transformation of DDC to DDO, even to present day there have been countless updates. The forums, updated voting standards, etc and so forth. The site has received updates in the past and came receive them again. This PM is quantifying how difficult it is going to be thought. That PM is saying that they are pulling resources from DDO, not just that they are not going to update it like they have been. That is very, very, bad in all aspects.

That is why we are trying to show how site quality increases hits. We are going to have to accept the fact that site quality is going to have to go hand in hand with traffic if we want any updates, but we have to actually show them that is possible and how it is possible. That by offering up updates that some of these members want, they can see results from traffic

(ie big debates on the site, big polls, and other stuff are what get the random people to actually click the link to bring them here. If you remove the debates that are getting the hits which are normally big members whom are serious, then the site will not get many hits at all)

It is a long road but it is possible.

I know what you're trying to do but if Juggle is finally admitting DDO is on the back burner, DDO is really on the back burner now. I shudder to think of the long stretches of inactivity from Juggle where they DIDN'T think we were a secondary priority.
Mikal
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3/14/2014 9:54:37 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/14/2014 9:53:32 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 3/14/2014 9:24:41 AM, Mikal wrote:
[STUFF]

I agree that the DDO forum seems to be the go-to forum for many posts, but that is in part due to the level of traffic Juggle demands. In other words, noobs posting there.

Regardless, one of the last threads you complained about being a flame war wasn't really a flame war, IMO, especially since the topic started with a legitimate, and apt for the forum, purpose of addressing what is and is not an ad hom fallacy.

This is less of that and more the DOL thing, but a little of both. You know Capa as well, if you push her it will escalate. Just better to avoid it in the main threads.
Mikal
Posts: 11,270
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3/14/2014 9:56:43 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/14/2014 9:54:13 AM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
At 3/14/2014 9:43:54 AM, Mikal wrote:
At 3/14/2014 9:33:43 AM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
Not to sound pessimistic but...

1. I think the forums is going to be the least of Juggle's worries. How about all the garbage debates, polls and opinions that clog the site's main page? Those aren't going away and reach a far greater audience than the forums ever will.

2. People who rage don't want to debate, that's why they rage. If they were going to debate civilly they would but they never do. Countless debate challenges go unheeded because people refuse to actually argue their points.

3. DDO is always on the back burner. I know you haven't been around as long as some of us have but the only significant changes we got were ones that were unasked for such as the aesthetic changes. A year or so ago they threw us a History and Funny forum. Yippee. Juggle has never cared about us and our cries go mostly unheeded in the wilderness.

4. I applaud your efforts but Juggle's own efforts is what is causing the site's population to grow and therefore decrease in value. The two groups want different things. Juggle wants traffic solely for monetary purposes, they don't care about the quality of traffic and therefore most likely doesn't care about the status of the forums. Don't get your hopes up.

(1) They want the garbage polls and opinions. Literally they want the traffic and everything with it. They like the thought of people coming in making a poll and leaving. They just want the people to come, and don't really care how. Still If we are going to advocate for site quality, and they happen to see that the main thread is (spammed) and I do mean spammed with rage sht. It is going to be counter productive.

(2) It doesn't have to be a debate, just a pm or in the misc section if it doesn't abridge the TOS. That is a max thing , not my thing. I would say pms.

(3+4) DDO has always been on the back burner because of revenue issues, but updates have been pushed through. If you look at the transformation of DDC to DDO, even to present day there have been countless updates. The forums, updated voting standards, etc and so forth. The site has received updates in the past and came receive them again. This PM is quantifying how difficult it is going to be thought. That PM is saying that they are pulling resources from DDO, not just that they are not going to update it like they have been. That is very, very, bad in all aspects.

That is why we are trying to show how site quality increases hits. We are going to have to accept the fact that site quality is going to have to go hand in hand with traffic if we want any updates, but we have to actually show them that is possible and how it is possible. That by offering up updates that some of these members want, they can see results from traffic

(ie big debates on the site, big polls, and other stuff are what get the random people to actually click the link to bring them here. If you remove the debates that are getting the hits which are normally big members whom are serious, then the site will not get many hits at all)

It is a long road but it is possible.

I know what you're trying to do but if Juggle is finally admitting DDO is on the back burner, DDO is really on the back burner now. I shudder to think of the long stretches of inactivity from Juggle where they DIDN'T think we were a secondary priority.

I concur, but we still have a shot at getting some of this pushed through. Just need everyone as a whole to help. There are certain situations and people on the site that are a delicate situations in which escalating certain things could hurt more than help

I am sure you are aware of these people and situations as well. It is not a secret.
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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3/14/2014 9:57:56 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/14/2014 9:54:37 AM, Mikal wrote:
At 3/14/2014 9:53:32 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 3/14/2014 9:24:41 AM, Mikal wrote:
[STUFF]

I agree that the DDO forum seems to be the go-to forum for many posts, but that is in part due to the level of traffic Juggle demands. In other words, noobs posting there.

Regardless, one of the last threads you complained about being a flame war wasn't really a flame war, IMO, especially since the topic started with a legitimate, and apt for the forum, purpose of addressing what is and is not an ad hom fallacy.

This is less of that and more the DOL thing, but a little of both. You know Capa as well, if you push her it will escalate. Just better to avoid it in the main threads.

So I should ignore it if she is giving bad advice on a logical fallacy, or not explore my own misunderstanding of it?
My work here is, finally, done.
Mikal
Posts: 11,270
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3/14/2014 10:00:04 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/14/2014 9:57:56 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 3/14/2014 9:54:37 AM, Mikal wrote:
At 3/14/2014 9:53:32 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 3/14/2014 9:24:41 AM, Mikal wrote:
[STUFF]

I agree that the DDO forum seems to be the go-to forum for many posts, but that is in part due to the level of traffic Juggle demands. In other words, noobs posting there.

Regardless, one of the last threads you complained about being a flame war wasn't really a flame war, IMO, especially since the topic started with a legitimate, and apt for the forum, purpose of addressing what is and is not an ad hom fallacy.

This is less of that and more the DOL thing, but a little of both. You know Capa as well, if you push her it will escalate. Just better to avoid it in the main threads.

So I should ignore it if she is giving bad advice on a logical fallacy, or not explore my own misunderstanding of it?

Feel free to address it, just don't egg it? This is way less to do with you on this subject and more with others egging the situation on. I myself am guilty of this in the past with a few users, and had to call myself on it.
ADreamOfLiberty
Posts: 1,570
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3/14/2014 11:46:56 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Feature request: Allow mods to mark threads as "extraneous BS" making them still completely usable but they do not bump in front of normal threads or appear on the main page.

(Did you see what I did there :p)
LOL, yeah, it's pretty amazing how they think they can "reason" with you. - Sidewalker, speaking of advocates for sexual deviancy.

So, my advice, Liberty, is to go somewhere else. Leave, and never come back. - YYW

And that's what I did. Contact me at http://www.edeb8.com... by the same user name if you have anything you'd like to say.
Blade-of-Truth
Posts: 5,036
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3/14/2014 2:09:34 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/14/2014 10:00:04 AM, Mikal wrote:
At 3/14/2014 9:57:56 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 3/14/2014 9:54:37 AM, Mikal wrote:
At 3/14/2014 9:53:32 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 3/14/2014 9:24:41 AM, Mikal wrote:
[STUFF]

I agree that the DDO forum seems to be the go-to forum for many posts, but that is in part due to the level of traffic Juggle demands. In other words, noobs posting there.

Regardless, one of the last threads you complained about being a flame war wasn't really a flame war, IMO, especially since the topic started with a legitimate, and apt for the forum, purpose of addressing what is and is not an ad hom fallacy.

This is less of that and more the DOL thing, but a little of both. You know Capa as well, if you push her it will escalate. Just better to avoid it in the main threads.

So I should ignore it if she is giving bad advice on a logical fallacy, or not explore my own misunderstanding of it?

Feel free to address it, just don't egg it? This is way less to do with you on this subject and more with others egging the situation on. I myself am guilty of this in the past with a few users, and had to call myself on it.

Where do you draw the line from addressing it, to egging it on? I, too, wanted her to explain herself and explain why I was wrong. Instead, she responded with extreme immaturity including personal attacks (which is beyond ironic considering how against personal attacks she seems to be).
I know I'm somewhat *newer to this site, but even I've been turned off by her emotionally-fueled responses that lack any rational explanations. So Mikal, where does the line get drawn and more importantly, how does someone intelligently deal with a complete hypocrite? Is it really just to ignore?
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GodChoosesLife
Posts: 3,461
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3/14/2014 2:15:20 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
This is why I came back to DDO! Concerned for the community!
Better than deserved, as ALWAYS.
"The strongest principle of growth lies in human choices."
"The Lord doesn't promise us a perfect life that is free of problems, but he does promise that He'll get us through anything." ~SweeTea
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Mikal
Posts: 11,270
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3/14/2014 2:21:12 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/14/2014 2:09:34 PM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
At 3/14/2014 10:00:04 AM, Mikal wrote:
At 3/14/2014 9:57:56 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 3/14/2014 9:54:37 AM, Mikal wrote:
At 3/14/2014 9:53:32 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 3/14/2014 9:24:41 AM, Mikal wrote:
[STUFF]

I agree that the DDO forum seems to be the go-to forum for many posts, but that is in part due to the level of traffic Juggle demands. In other words, noobs posting there.

Regardless, one of the last threads you complained about being a flame war wasn't really a flame war, IMO, especially since the topic started with a legitimate, and apt for the forum, purpose of addressing what is and is not an ad hom fallacy.

This is less of that and more the DOL thing, but a little of both. You know Capa as well, if you push her it will escalate. Just better to avoid it in the main threads.

So I should ignore it if she is giving bad advice on a logical fallacy, or not explore my own misunderstanding of it?

Feel free to address it, just don't egg it? This is way less to do with you on this subject and more with others egging the situation on. I myself am guilty of this in the past with a few users, and had to call myself on it.

Where do you draw the line from addressing it, to egging it on? I, too, wanted her to explain herself and explain why I was wrong. Instead, she responded with extreme immaturity including personal attacks (which is beyond ironic considering how against personal attacks she seems to be).
I know I'm somewhat *newer to this site, but even I've been turned off by her emotionally-fueled responses that lack any rational explanations. So Mikal, where does the line get drawn and more importantly, how does someone intelligently deal with a complete hypocrite? Is it really just to ignore?

When people jump in that are not even in the original thing and start all bashing each other or one person. There are just better ways to handle it than on the main page or writing threads about it.
donald.keller
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3/14/2014 2:24:58 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Sniff sniff fundraiser sniff sniff
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Mikal
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3/14/2014 2:25:57 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/14/2014 2:24:58 PM, donald.keller wrote:
Sniff sniff fundraiser sniff sniff

If i had to much money I would buy the site myself from them. It has potential to make money and they do not even see it
Blade-of-Truth
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3/14/2014 2:33:00 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/14/2014 2:21:12 PM, Mikal wrote:
At 3/14/2014 2:09:34 PM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
At 3/14/2014 10:00:04 AM, Mikal wrote:
At 3/14/2014 9:57:56 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 3/14/2014 9:54:37 AM, Mikal wrote:
At 3/14/2014 9:53:32 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 3/14/2014 9:24:41 AM, Mikal wrote:
[STUFF]

I agree that the DDO forum seems to be the go-to forum for many posts, but that is in part due to the level of traffic Juggle demands. In other words, noobs posting there.

Regardless, one of the last threads you complained about being a flame war wasn't really a flame war, IMO, especially since the topic started with a legitimate, and apt for the forum, purpose of addressing what is and is not an ad hom fallacy.

This is less of that and more the DOL thing, but a little of both. You know Capa as well, if you push her it will escalate. Just better to avoid it in the main threads.

So I should ignore it if she is giving bad advice on a logical fallacy, or not explore my own misunderstanding of it?

Feel free to address it, just don't egg it? This is way less to do with you on this subject and more with others egging the situation on. I myself am guilty of this in the past with a few users, and had to call myself on it.

Where do you draw the line from addressing it, to egging it on? I, too, wanted her to explain herself and explain why I was wrong. Instead, she responded with extreme immaturity including personal attacks (which is beyond ironic considering how against personal attacks she seems to be).
I know I'm somewhat *newer to this site, but even I've been turned off by her emotionally-fueled responses that lack any rational explanations. So Mikal, where does the line get drawn and more importantly, how does someone intelligently deal with a complete hypocrite? Is it really just to ignore?

When people jump in that are not even in the original thing and start all bashing each other or one person. There are just better ways to handle it than on the main page or writing threads about it.

I get that, and totally agree. I was asking what the solutions would be.

Recently you made a thread about sniping debates and gave some sound advice. Perhaps you could make a similar one on how to deal with trolls or people that might bring out that blind-rage while in the forums. You said yourself that you've been guilty of that in the past and had to call yourself out on it. Perhaps by making a thread with some guidelines on how to spot and deal with situations like that - the newer members would have a point of reference for whenever they get caught up in a similar situation.
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Mikal
Posts: 11,270
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3/14/2014 3:08:52 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/14/2014 2:33:00 PM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
At 3/14/2014 2:21:12 PM, Mikal wrote:
At 3/14/2014 2:09:34 PM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
At 3/14/2014 10:00:04 AM, Mikal wrote:
At 3/14/2014 9:57:56 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 3/14/2014 9:54:37 AM, Mikal wrote:
At 3/14/2014 9:53:32 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 3/14/2014 9:24:41 AM, Mikal wrote:
[STUFF]

I agree that the DDO forum seems to be the go-to forum for many posts, but that is in part due to the level of traffic Juggle demands. In other words, noobs posting there.

Regardless, one of the last threads you complained about being a flame war wasn't really a flame war, IMO, especially since the topic started with a legitimate, and apt for the forum, purpose of addressing what is and is not an ad hom fallacy.

This is less of that and more the DOL thing, but a little of both. You know Capa as well, if you push her it will escalate. Just better to avoid it in the main threads.

So I should ignore it if she is giving bad advice on a logical fallacy, or not explore my own misunderstanding of it?

Feel free to address it, just don't egg it? This is way less to do with you on this subject and more with others egging the situation on. I myself am guilty of this in the past with a few users, and had to call myself on it.

Where do you draw the line from addressing it, to egging it on? I, too, wanted her to explain herself and explain why I was wrong. Instead, she responded with extreme immaturity including personal attacks (which is beyond ironic considering how against personal attacks she seems to be).
I know I'm somewhat *newer to this site, but even I've been turned off by her emotionally-fueled responses that lack any rational explanations. So Mikal, where does the line get drawn and more importantly, how does someone intelligently deal with a complete hypocrite? Is it really just to ignore?

When people jump in that are not even in the original thing and start all bashing each other or one person. There are just better ways to handle it than on the main page or writing threads about it.

I get that, and totally agree. I was asking what the solutions would be.

Recently you made a thread about sniping debates and gave some sound advice. Perhaps you could make a similar one on how to deal with trolls or people that might bring out that blind-rage while in the forums. You said yourself that you've been guilty of that in the past and had to call yourself out on it. Perhaps by making a thread with some guidelines on how to spot and deal with situations like that - the newer members would have a point of reference for whenever they get caught up in a similar situation.

no real way to do it. Either just ignore them or take it to a pm. People are always going to get troll, but there is polite ways to get around it. Granted it is hard sometimes.

I may do that at some point or get someone to do it, most of it is probably in the TOS though.