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YYW
Posts: 36,303
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3/15/2014 7:43:13 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
tl;dr: It should be no surprise that DDO has been put on the back burner. If you want to know why, read on.

Juggle recently told TUF that they were pulling resources from DDO, which should have surprised exactly no one. From a business perspective, it just doesn't make sense when the costs of "improvements" as they're called most likely outweigh any potential benefit they might generate from revenue of any kind.

I made a thread a while back that harped on Juggle's lack of a vision for DDO, and I said that there were two possible worlds which could result from their "improvements." In the first, Juggle continues to implement gimmicky improvements that knock off CreateDebate, and DDO fails. In the second, Juggle focuses on what has made DDO great and enhances that.

Juggle chose the cheap gimmicky route, and they did it because they failed to understand what made DDO so good in the first place, or they didn't care. And now, after the site has been monetized, the cash they were hoping to generate is most likely paltry compared to their expectations because on a fundamental level, Juggle does not understand DDO's users. But, that is not all Juggle's fault. It's also our fault too. I shouldn't even have to say why, either. It should be explicitly obvious to anyone who takes the time to think about basic cause and effect.

However, all hope is not lost. Juggle still has a way to make this site actually worth something more than the few thousand a month they probably get from adsense, or whatever ad thing they use. If Juggle made DDO into a place where only those people who wanted to take the time to read, to learn and to participate in an active intellectual community, they might not get ten unique clicks on their front page every minute, but they will have a lasting user base that will be sustainable, most likely expand, and continue to generate value for the site's owners.

But before that can happen, the gimmicky crap that has brought in a swath of worthless members who are diametrically antagonistic to what makes this site worthwhile has got to go. The opinion and poll sections need to be independent from the debates and forums. The reason for that is because the kind of user who wants to vomit out a few hundred characters of incoherent nonsense is not only not the same kind of user who wants to have a real, intellectually challenging debate -and those kinds of users are always going to be at odds with one another because they come to the site for different reasons. It's ok to have sites that cater to both, but Juggle can't have it's cake and eat it too. And right now, they're just eating empty calories.

Based on what little I know about computers, I think it's fair to conclude that the reason the servers can't handle the site anymore is because of how huge the opinion and poll sections have become. Shocking? It shouldn't be. But the server issues are just a symptom of a greater problem... The greater problem is Juggle's failure to understand and/or accept what makes DDO unique, and why users come to this site. The fault exists in their lack of foresight, their imprudent resource allocation and their systematic mismanagement.

I have more to say about this, but I'm already at the point where I doubt many will even take the time to read what's here.
Tsar of DDO
NightofTheLivingCats
Posts: 2,294
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3/15/2014 7:50:32 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/15/2014 7:43:13 PM, YYW wrote:
tl;dr: It should be no surprise that DDO has been put on the back burner. If you want to know why, read on.

Juggle recently told TUF that they were pulling resources from DDO, which should have surprised exactly no one. From a business perspective, it just doesn't make sense when the costs of "improvements" as they're called most likely outweigh any potential benefit they might generate from revenue of any kind.

I made a thread a while back that harped on Juggle's lack of a vision for DDO, and I said that there were two possible worlds which could result from their "improvements." In the first, Juggle continues to implement gimmicky improvements that knock off CreateDebate, and DDO fails. In the second, Juggle focuses on what has made DDO great and enhances that.

Juggle chose the cheap gimmicky route, and they did it because they failed to understand what made DDO so good in the first place, or they didn't care. And now, after the site has been monetized, the cash they were hoping to generate is most likely paltry compared to their expectations because on a fundamental level, Juggle does not understand DDO's users. But, that is not all Juggle's fault. It's also our fault too. I shouldn't even have to say why, either. It should be explicitly obvious to anyone who takes the time to think about basic cause and effect.

However, all hope is not lost. Juggle still has a way to make this site actually worth something more than the few thousand a month they probably get from adsense, or whatever ad thing they use. If Juggle made DDO into a place where only those people who wanted to take the time to read, to learn and to participate in an active intellectual community, they might not get ten unique clicks on their front page every minute, but they will have a lasting user base that will be sustainable, most likely expand, and continue to generate value for the site's owners.

But before that can happen, the gimmicky crap that has brought in a swath of worthless members who are diametrically antagonistic to what makes this site worthwhile has got to go. The opinion and poll sections need to be independent from the debates and forums. The reason for that is because the kind of user who wants to vomit out a few hundred characters of incoherent nonsense is not only not the same kind of user who wants to have a real, intellectually challenging debate -and those kinds of users are always going to be at odds with one another because they come to the site for different reasons. It's ok to have sites that cater to both, but Juggle can't have it's cake and eat it too. And right now, they're just eating empty calories.

Based on what little I know about computers, I think it's fair to conclude that the reason the servers can't handle the site anymore is because of how huge the opinion and poll sections have become. Shocking? It shouldn't be. But the server issues are just a symptom of a greater problem... The greater problem is Juggle's failure to understand and/or accept what makes DDO unique, and why users come to this site. The fault exists in their lack of foresight, their imprudent resource allocation and their systematic mismanagement.

I have more to say about this, but I'm already at the point where I doubt many will even take the time to read what's here.

Agreed.

DDO has evolved over the years and while I'm too lazy to debate or whatnot, there is less of a focus on debating then it should.
ConservativePolitico
Posts: 8,210
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3/15/2014 8:14:22 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I hate to say it but a DDO user fee might be necessary.

Think about it, only the people who really love the site and are dedicated to it would pay to use it, most of the trash would be filtered out and Juggle get's their money they want so badly.

It's a win win. I'll make a more formal post about this later but for now. Think about it.
kbub
Posts: 1,377
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3/15/2014 8:18:22 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/15/2014 8:14:22 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
I hate to say it but a DDO user fee might be necessary.


DDO would die in seconds.
imabench
Posts: 21,220
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3/15/2014 8:20:30 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/15/2014 8:18:22 PM, kbub wrote:
At 3/15/2014 8:14:22 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
I hate to say it but a DDO user fee might be necessary.


DDO would die in seconds.

Agreed.
Kevin24018 : "He's just so mean it makes me want to ball up my fists and stamp on the ground"
Geogeer: "Nobody is dumb enough to become my protege."

7/14/16 = The Presidency Dies

DDO: THE MOVIE = http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...

VP of DDO from Dec 14th 2014 to Jan 1st 2015
YYW
Posts: 36,303
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3/15/2014 8:24:44 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/15/2014 8:20:30 PM, imabench wrote:
At 3/15/2014 8:18:22 PM, kbub wrote:
At 3/15/2014 8:14:22 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
I hate to say it but a DDO user fee might be necessary.


DDO would die in seconds.

Agreed.

A user fee wouldn't be advisable, and I can't imagine why it would be necessary.
Tsar of DDO
imabench
Posts: 21,220
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3/15/2014 8:27:21 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Relax guys, you're all just antsy cause the weekly stupid was delayed a week...
Kevin24018 : "He's just so mean it makes me want to ball up my fists and stamp on the ground"
Geogeer: "Nobody is dumb enough to become my protege."

7/14/16 = The Presidency Dies

DDO: THE MOVIE = http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...

VP of DDO from Dec 14th 2014 to Jan 1st 2015
airmax1227
Posts: 13,244
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3/15/2014 8:27:38 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/15/2014 8:14:22 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
I hate to say it but a DDO user fee might be necessary.

Think about it, only the people who really love the site and are dedicated to it would pay to use it, most of the trash would be filtered out and Juggle get's their money they want so badly.

It's a win win. I'll make a more formal post about this later but for now. Think about it.

I'd probably be exempt from such a fee, but I'd still be one of the first to leave.

This is an issue of resource prioritization by the company that owns the site. They spent a fair amount of time updating it and will continue to do so in the future. Currently they are putting more efforts into other projects and during this time will focus on other aspects of the site (optimization/bug fixing) while considering updates in the future. They haven't abandoned the site in any way, they simply need to focus on other things.
Debate.org Moderator
YYW
Posts: 36,303
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3/15/2014 8:28:59 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/15/2014 8:27:38 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 3/15/2014 8:14:22 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
I hate to say it but a DDO user fee might be necessary.

Think about it, only the people who really love the site and are dedicated to it would pay to use it, most of the trash would be filtered out and Juggle get's their money they want so badly.

It's a win win. I'll make a more formal post about this later but for now. Think about it.

I'd probably be exempt from such a fee, but I'd still be one of the first to leave.

This is an issue of resource prioritization by the company that owns the site. They spent a fair amount of time updating it and will continue to do so in the future. Currently they are putting more efforts into other projects and during this time will focus on other aspects of the site (optimization/bug fixing) while considering updates in the future. They haven't abandoned the site in any way, they simply need to focus on other things.

It would be so nice if when I logged on, the site worked properly...
Tsar of DDO
airmax1227
Posts: 13,244
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3/15/2014 8:33:43 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/15/2014 8:28:59 PM, YYW wrote:
At 3/15/2014 8:27:38 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 3/15/2014 8:14:22 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
I hate to say it but a DDO user fee might be necessary.

Think about it, only the people who really love the site and are dedicated to it would pay to use it, most of the trash would be filtered out and Juggle get's their money they want so badly.

It's a win win. I'll make a more formal post about this later but for now. Think about it.

I'd probably be exempt from such a fee, but I'd still be one of the first to leave.

This is an issue of resource prioritization by the company that owns the site. They spent a fair amount of time updating it and will continue to do so in the future. Currently they are putting more efforts into other projects and during this time will focus on other aspects of the site (optimization/bug fixing) while considering updates in the future. They haven't abandoned the site in any way, they simply need to focus on other things.

It would be so nice if when I logged on, the site worked properly...

I agree. Before considering any updates at all, that issue needs to be fixed.
Debate.org Moderator
GodChoosesLife
Posts: 3,461
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3/15/2014 8:40:04 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/15/2014 8:27:21 PM, imabench wrote:
Relax guys, you're all just antsy cause the weekly stupid was delayed a week...

I LOL'd when I read this.. I'm not sure if this is confidence or concededness though?.. But its still kinda funny..
Better than deserved, as ALWAYS.
"The strongest principle of growth lies in human choices."
"The Lord doesn't promise us a perfect life that is free of problems, but he does promise that He'll get us through anything." ~SweeTea
"Good Times" ~ Max
"If Jesus isn't in heaven, then it's not heaven; instead, it's hell." ~anonymous
"Suffering is unimaginably confusing, but it's a way to be drawn closer to God" ~Me
"Tell me what consumes your heart most, and I'll tell you who your God is." ~Dad
Sagey
Posts: 51
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3/15/2014 8:58:21 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/15/2014 7:50:32 PM, NightofTheLivingCats wrote:
At 3/15/2014 7:43:13 PM, YYW wrote:
tl;dr: It should be no surprise that DDO has been put on the back burner. If you want to know why, read on.

Juggle recently told TUF that they were pulling resources from DDO, which should have surprised exactly no one. From a business perspective, it just doesn't make sense when the costs of "improvements" as they're called most likely outweigh any potential benefit they might generate from revenue of any kind.

I made a thread a while back that harped on Juggle's lack of a vision for DDO, and I said that there were two possible worlds which could result from their "improvements." In the first, Juggle continues to implement gimmicky improvements that knock off CreateDebate, and DDO fails. In the second, Juggle focuses on what has made DDO great and enhances that.

Juggle chose the cheap gimmicky route, and they did it because they failed to understand what made DDO so good in the first place, or they didn't care. And now, after the site has been monetized, the cash they were hoping to generate is most likely paltry compared to their expectations because on a fundamental level, Juggle does not understand DDO's users. But, that is not all Juggle's fault. It's also our fault too. I shouldn't even have to say why, either. It should be explicitly obvious to anyone who takes the time to think about basic cause and effect.

However, all hope is not lost. Juggle still has a way to make this site actually worth something more than the few thousand a month they probably get from adsense, or whatever ad thing they use. If Juggle made DDO into a place where only those people who wanted to take the time to read, to learn and to participate in an active intellectual community, they might not get ten unique clicks on their front page every minute, but they will have a lasting user base that will be sustainable, most likely expand, and continue to generate value for the site's owners.

But before that can happen, the gimmicky crap that has brought in a swath of worthless members who are diametrically antagonistic to what makes this site worthwhile has got to go. The opinion and poll sections need to be independent from the debates and forums. The reason for that is because the kind of user who wants to vomit out a few hundred characters of incoherent nonsense is not only not the same kind of user who wants to have a real, intellectually challenging debate -and those kinds of users are always going to be at odds with one another because they come to the site for different reasons. It's ok to have sites that cater to both, but Juggle can't have it's cake and eat it too. And right now, they're just eating empty calories.

Based on what little I know about computers, I think it's fair to conclude that the reason the servers can't handle the site anymore is because of how huge the opinion and poll sections have become. Shocking? It shouldn't be. But the server issues are just a symptom of a greater problem... The greater problem is Juggle's failure to understand and/or accept what makes DDO unique, and why users come to this site. The fault exists in their lack of foresight, their imprudent resource allocation and their systematic mismanagement.

I have more to say about this, but I'm already at the point where I doubt many will even take the time to read what's here.

Agreed.

DDO has evolved over the years and while I'm too lazy to debate or whatnot, there is less of a focus on debating then it should.

Yes, no surprises there!
The Internet has and is still becoming more and more about Commerce and less about individuals.
I saw the Internet rise from mere bulletin board services where it was all about the technology and getting away from text only messaging.
Then it became all about the people on the Internet, but as expected, they found ways to derive money by advertising and charging people for server space who wanted to have their own sites, because personal servers were incredibly expensive.

Server hardware and space is at the lowest cost I've ever seen it, terrabytes for dollars almost. Yet it is becoming more expensive to be online in many regions and the constant groping for money by advertisers and to stay on forums which are now asking for membership fees.
I worked for an ISP in the good times and we set up our server for the purpose of our own education and to gain a steady client base which we could occasionally get fees for fixing their systems and upgrading their equipment.
But the Telco companies started realizing the profit that could be made from the Internet and upped our costs for the bandwith they provided (which was abysmal anyway) so we shut it down. As what was a service to clients became a huge loss that the income from our share of Internet download fees could not possibly cover.

I've actually shut down a lot of my Internet memberships because I cannot justify paying fees for being on forums and others like Facebook, because I'm sick of the constant ads and garbage I receive, even when I tick boxes stating I don't want it.
Flash screen ads on the sides I can usually ignore, but when they turn up on my personal message boards, that's too much!

Some of us like to limit our message board posts to friends only, not have it used by companies to try to entice us into things that their profiling of us, makes them believe we are interested in.
YYW
Posts: 36,303
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3/15/2014 9:02:51 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/15/2014 8:58:21 PM, Sagey wrote:
At 3/15/2014 7:50:32 PM, NightofTheLivingCats wrote:
At 3/15/2014 7:43:13 PM, YYW wrote:
tl;dr: It should be no surprise that DDO has been put on the back burner. If you want to know why, read on.

Juggle recently told TUF that they were pulling resources from DDO, which should have surprised exactly no one. From a business perspective, it just doesn't make sense when the costs of "improvements" as they're called most likely outweigh any potential benefit they might generate from revenue of any kind.

I made a thread a while back that harped on Juggle's lack of a vision for DDO, and I said that there were two possible worlds which could result from their "improvements." In the first, Juggle continues to implement gimmicky improvements that knock off CreateDebate, and DDO fails. In the second, Juggle focuses on what has made DDO great and enhances that.

Juggle chose the cheap gimmicky route, and they did it because they failed to understand what made DDO so good in the first place, or they didn't care. And now, after the site has been monetized, the cash they were hoping to generate is most likely paltry compared to their expectations because on a fundamental level, Juggle does not understand DDO's users. But, that is not all Juggle's fault. It's also our fault too. I shouldn't even have to say why, either. It should be explicitly obvious to anyone who takes the time to think about basic cause and effect.

However, all hope is not lost. Juggle still has a way to make this site actually worth something more than the few thousand a month they probably get from adsense, or whatever ad thing they use. If Juggle made DDO into a place where only those people who wanted to take the time to read, to learn and to participate in an active intellectual community, they might not get ten unique clicks on their front page every minute, but they will have a lasting user base that will be sustainable, most likely expand, and continue to generate value for the site's owners.

But before that can happen, the gimmicky crap that has brought in a swath of worthless members who are diametrically antagonistic to what makes this site worthwhile has got to go. The opinion and poll sections need to be independent from the debates and forums. The reason for that is because the kind of user who wants to vomit out a few hundred characters of incoherent nonsense is not only not the same kind of user who wants to have a real, intellectually challenging debate -and those kinds of users are always going to be at odds with one another because they come to the site for different reasons. It's ok to have sites that cater to both, but Juggle can't have it's cake and eat it too. And right now, they're just eating empty calories.

Based on what little I know about computers, I think it's fair to conclude that the reason the servers can't handle the site anymore is because of how huge the opinion and poll sections have become. Shocking? It shouldn't be. But the server issues are just a symptom of a greater problem... The greater problem is Juggle's failure to understand and/or accept what makes DDO unique, and why users come to this site. The fault exists in their lack of foresight, their imprudent resource allocation and their systematic mismanagement.

I have more to say about this, but I'm already at the point where I doubt many will even take the time to read what's here.

Agreed.

DDO has evolved over the years and while I'm too lazy to debate or whatnot, there is less of a focus on debating then it should.

Yes, no surprises there!
The Internet has and is still becoming more and more about Commerce and less about individuals.
I saw the Internet rise from mere bulletin board services where it was all about the technology and getting away from text only messaging.
Then it became all about the people on the Internet, but as expected, they found ways to derive money by advertising and charging people for server space who wanted to have their own sites, because personal servers were incredibly expensive.

Server hardware and space is at the lowest cost I've ever seen it, terrabytes for dollars almost. Yet it is becoming more expensive to be online in many regions and the constant groping for money by advertisers and to stay on forums which are now asking for membership fees.
I worked for an ISP in the good times and we set up our server for the purpose of our own education and to gain a steady client base which we could occasionally get fees for fixing their systems and upgrading their equipment.
But the Telco companies started realizing the profit that could be made from the Internet and upped our costs for the bandwith they provided (which was abysmal anyway) so we shut it down. As what was a service to clients became a huge loss that the income from our share of Internet download fees could not possibly cover.

I've actually shut down a lot of my Internet memberships because I cannot justify paying fees for being on forums and others like Facebook, because I'm sick of the constant ads and garbage I receive, even when I tick boxes stating I don't want it.
Flash screen ads on the sides I can usually ignore, but when they turn up on my personal message boards, that's too much!

Some of us like to limit our message board posts to friends only, not have it used by companies to try to entice us into things that their profiling of us, makes them believe we are interested in.

I find it very hard to take you seriously because of your profile picture.
Tsar of DDO
Sagey
Posts: 51
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3/15/2014 9:14:08 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/15/2014 8:58:21 PM, Sagey wrote:
At 3/15/2014 7:50:32 PM, NightofTheLivingCats wrote:
At 3/15/2014 7:43:13 PM, YYW wrote:
tl;dr: It should be no surprise that DDO has been put on the back burner. If you want to know why, read on.

Juggle recently told TUF that they were pulling resources from DDO, which should have surprised exactly no one. From a business perspective, it just doesn't make sense when the costs of "improvements" as they're called most likely outweigh any potential benefit they might generate from revenue of any kind.

I made a thread a while back that harped on Juggle's lack of a vision for DDO, and I said that there were two possible worlds which could result from their "improvements." In the first, Juggle continues to implement gimmicky improvements that knock off CreateDebate, and DDO fails. In the second, Juggle focuses on what has made DDO great and enhances that.

Juggle chose the cheap gimmicky route, and they did it because they failed to understand what made DDO so good in the first place, or they didn't care. And now, after the site has been monetized, the cash they were hoping to generate is most likely paltry compared to their expectations because on a fundamental level, Juggle does not understand DDO's users. But, that is not all Juggle's fault. It's also our fault too. I shouldn't even have to say why, either. It should be explicitly obvious to anyone who takes the time to think about basic cause and effect.

However, all hope is not lost. Juggle still has a way to make this site actually worth something more than the few thousand a month they probably get from adsense, or whatever ad thing they use. If Juggle made DDO into a place where only those people who wanted to take the time to read, to learn and to participate in an active intellectual community, they might not get ten unique clicks on their front page every minute, but they will have a lasting user base that will be sustainable, most likely expand, and continue to generate value for the site's owners.

But before that can happen, the gimmicky crap that has brought in a swath of worthless members who are diametrically antagonistic to what makes this site worthwhile has got to go. The opinion and poll sections need to be independent from the debates and forums. The reason for that is because the kind of user who wants to vomit out a few hundred characters of incoherent nonsense is not only not the same kind of user who wants to have a real, intellectually challenging debate -and those kinds of users are always going to be at odds with one another because they come to the site for different reasons. It's ok to have sites that cater to both, but Juggle can't have it's cake and eat it too. And right now, they're just eating empty calories.

Based on what little I know about computers, I think it's fair to conclude that the reason the servers can't handle the site anymore is because of how huge the opinion and poll sections have become. Shocking? It shouldn't be. But the server issues are just a symptom of a greater problem... The greater problem is Juggle's failure to understand and/or accept what makes DDO unique, and why users come to this site. The fault exists in their lack of foresight, their imprudent resource allocation and their systematic mismanagement.

I have more to say about this, but I'm already at the point where I doubt many will even take the time to read what's here.

Agreed.

DDO has evolved over the years and while I'm too lazy to debate or whatnot, there is less of a focus on debating then it should.

Yes, no surprises there!
The Internet has and is still becoming more and more about Commerce and less about individuals.
I saw the Internet rise from mere bulletin board services where it was all about the technology and getting away from text only messaging.
Then it became all about the people on the Internet, but as expected, they found ways to derive money by advertising and charging people for server space who wanted to have their own sites, because personal servers were incredibly expensive.

Server hardware and space is at the lowest cost I've ever seen it, terrabytes for dollars almost. Yet it is becoming more expensive to be online in many regions and the constant groping for money by advertisers and to stay on forums which are now asking for membership fees.
I worked for an ISP in the good times and we set up our server for the purpose of our own education and to gain a steady client base which we could occasionally get fees for fixing their systems and upgrading their equipment.
But the Telco companies started realizing the profit that could be made from the Internet and upped our costs for the bandwith they provided (which was abysmal anyway) so we shut it down. As what was a service to clients became a huge loss that the income from our share of Internet download fees could not possibly cover.

I've actually shut down a lot of my Internet memberships because I cannot justify paying fees for being on forums and others like Facebook, because I'm sick of the constant ads and garbage I receive, even when I tick boxes stating I don't want it.
Flash screen ads on the sides I can usually ignore, but when they turn up on my personal message boards, that's too much!

Some of us like to limit our message board posts to friends only, not have it used by companies to try to entice us into things that their profiling of us, makes them believe we are interested in.

Don't take me seriously then if my avatar, icon doesn't suit you.
I don't expect all people to take me seriously!
My avatar is simply because I support the Freedom From Religion Foundation.
And it depicts the truth about early childhood Indoctrination.
It's just a means of getting a point of view across, pictorially.
That's all.
So! Don't take it seriously!
XD~
bluesteel
Posts: 12,301
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3/15/2014 9:15:43 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
As far as I can tell, there is nothing proprietary about DDO. They have a copyright on the name "debate.org" and "trade dress" protection for the exact layout of the site. But you could copy pretty much everything else onto a new site and start afresh with a different URL.

If the new site could actually capture the entire established user base, DDO would die (or at least not increase much in profitability). All that would take is an agreement by everyone on here to use a new site and stop using DDO.

You could *probably* also even copy all of the debates over, assuming that it was you (the user) doing it and not the person programming the site (i.e. you can get your current win record back by pasting all your arguments into a new debate and the site moderator will award an auto forfeit from the moderator account until you're back up to where you were). While Juggle *claims* in the TOS that they have a right to all the content you write on here, good luck enforcing that... There are a number of reasons that their browsewrap agreement isn't enforceable, including the way it is laid out, its implications on free speech (void as against public policy), and the fact that it wasn't in existence for the duration of the site (so for older users like me, they'd have to prove what version existed at the time I made each of my debates). It's hard to argue that you don't have a right to your own words. Anyway,Juggle can't afford a legal battle over this anyway. Assuming someone wanted to copy most of the site, you'd just set up an LLC to own the new website. If Juggle sued, at best they would make the LLC go bankrupt, but at worst, they'd still lose (because someone like Logical-Master represented the LLC for a free XD) and run up hundreds of thousands of dollars in legal costs.

Just throwing all this out there. I have heard some interest from people to leave the site and to program something better. It could be a real moneymaker. It would take some work by all the users (assuming you guys want to keep your current record), but if people put in the work, you could end up with someone in charge of the site who is much more responsive to users (such as TUF, Larz, etc).
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)
Subutai
Posts: 3,223
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3/15/2014 9:15:47 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/15/2014 7:43:13 PM, YYW wrote:
tl;dr: It should be no surprise that DDO has been put on the back burner. If you want to know why, read on.

Juggle recently told TUF that they were pulling resources from DDO, which should have surprised exactly no one. From a business perspective, it just doesn't make sense when the costs of "improvements" as they're called most likely outweigh any potential benefit they might generate from revenue of any kind.

I made a thread a while back that harped on Juggle's lack of a vision for DDO, and I said that there were two possible worlds which could result from their "improvements." In the first, Juggle continues to implement gimmicky improvements that knock off CreateDebate, and DDO fails. In the second, Juggle focuses on what has made DDO great and enhances that.

Juggle chose the cheap gimmicky route, and they did it because they failed to understand what made DDO so good in the first place, or they didn't care. And now, after the site has been monetized, the cash they were hoping to generate is most likely paltry compared to their expectations because on a fundamental level, Juggle does not understand DDO's users. But, that is not all Juggle's fault. It's also our fault too. I shouldn't even have to say why, either. It should be explicitly obvious to anyone who takes the time to think about basic cause and effect.

However, all hope is not lost. Juggle still has a way to make this site actually worth something more than the few thousand a month they probably get from adsense, or whatever ad thing they use. If Juggle made DDO into a place where only those people who wanted to take the time to read, to learn and to participate in an active intellectual community, they might not get ten unique clicks on their front page every minute, but they will have a lasting user base that will be sustainable, most likely expand, and continue to generate value for the site's owners.

But before that can happen, the gimmicky crap that has brought in a swath of worthless members who are diametrically antagonistic to what makes this site worthwhile has got to go. The opinion and poll sections need to be independent from the debates and forums. The reason for that is because the kind of user who wants to vomit out a few hundred characters of incoherent nonsense is not only not the same kind of user who wants to have a real, intellectually challenging debate -and those kinds of users are always going to be at odds with one another because they come to the site for different reasons. It's ok to have sites that cater to both, but Juggle can't have it's cake and eat it too. And right now, they're just eating empty calories.

Based on what little I know about computers, I think it's fair to conclude that the reason the servers can't handle the site anymore is because of how huge the opinion and poll sections have become. Shocking? It shouldn't be. But the server issues are just a symptom of a greater problem... The greater problem is Juggle's failure to understand and/or accept what makes DDO unique, and why users come to this site. The fault exists in their lack of foresight, their imprudent resource allocation and their systematic mismanagement.

I have more to say about this, but I'm already at the point where I doubt many will even take the time to read what's here.

Here here!

I fully agree with this, although I think the only people who will actually read this will say the same thing as well. Thank you for posting and I hope this gets more views.
I'm becoming less defined as days go by, fading away, and well you might say, I'm losing focus, kinda drifting into the abstract in terms of how I see myself.
imabench
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3/15/2014 9:17:01 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/15/2014 8:40:04 PM, GodChoosesLife wrote:
At 3/15/2014 8:27:21 PM, imabench wrote:
Relax guys, you're all just antsy cause the weekly stupid was delayed a week...

I LOL'd when I read this.. I'm not sure if this is confidence or concededness though?.. But its still kinda funny..

It's actually just shameless advertising :P
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GodChoosesLife
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3/15/2014 9:18:29 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/15/2014 9:17:01 PM, imabench wrote:
At 3/15/2014 8:40:04 PM, GodChoosesLife wrote:
At 3/15/2014 8:27:21 PM, imabench wrote:
Relax guys, you're all just antsy cause the weekly stupid was delayed a week...

I LOL'd when I read this.. I'm not sure if this is confidence or concededness though?.. But its still kinda funny..

It's actually just shameless advertising :P

Oh, I see.. Guess that makes sense?
Better than deserved, as ALWAYS.
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YYW
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3/15/2014 9:20:21 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/15/2014 9:15:43 PM, bluesteel wrote:
As far as I can tell, there is nothing proprietary about DDO. They have a copyright on the name "debate.org" and "trade dress" protection for the exact layout of the site. But you could copy pretty much everything else onto a new site and start afresh with a different URL.

If the new site could actually capture the entire established user base, DDO would die (or at least not increase much in profitability). All that would take is an agreement by everyone on here to use a new site and stop using DDO.

You could *probably* also even copy all of the debates over, assuming that it was you (the user) doing it and not the person programming the site (i.e. you can get your current win record back by pasting all your arguments into a new debate and the site moderator will award an auto forfeit from the moderator account until you're back up to where you were). While Juggle *claims* in the TOS that they have a right to all the content you write on here, good luck enforcing that... There are a number of reasons that their browsewrap agreement isn't enforceable, including the way it is laid out, its implications on free speech (void as against public policy), and the fact that it wasn't in existence for the duration of the site (so for older users like me, they'd have to prove what version existed at the time I made each of my debates).

lol

It's hard to argue that you don't have a right to your own words. Anyway,Juggle can't afford a legal battle over this anyway. Assuming someone wanted to copy most of the site, you'd just set up an LLC to own the new website. If Juggle sued, at best they would make the LLC go bankrupt, but at worst, they'd still lose (because someone like Logical-Master represented the LLC for a free XD) and run up hundreds of thousands of dollars in legal costs.

Just throwing all this out there. I have heard some interest from people to leave the site and to program something better. It could be a real moneymaker. It would take some work by all the users (assuming you guys want to keep your current record), but if people put in the work, you could end up with someone in charge of the site who is much more responsive to users (such as TUF, Larz, etc).

I agree that it would be nice to have another platform for this, that was less opinion/poll oriented.
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Mikal
Posts: 11,270
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3/15/2014 11:13:54 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/15/2014 9:15:43 PM, bluesteel wrote:
As far as I can tell, there is nothing proprietary about DDO. They have a copyright on the name "debate.org" and "trade dress" protection for the exact layout of the site. But you could copy pretty much everything else onto a new site and start afresh with a different URL.

If the new site could actually capture the entire established user base, DDO would die (or at least not increase much in profitability). All that would take is an agreement by everyone on here to use a new site and stop using DDO.

You could *probably* also even copy all of the debates over, assuming that it was you (the user) doing it and not the person programming the site (i.e. you can get your current win record back by pasting all your arguments into a new debate and the site moderator will award an auto forfeit from the moderator account until you're back up to where you were). While Juggle *claims* in the TOS that they have a right to all the content you write on here, good luck enforcing that... There are a number of reasons that their browsewrap agreement isn't enforceable, including the way it is laid out, its implications on free speech (void as against public policy), and the fact that it wasn't in existence for the duration of the site (so for older users like me, they'd have to prove what version existed at the time I made each of my debates). It's hard to argue that you don't have a right to your own words. Anyway,Juggle can't afford a legal battle over this anyway. Assuming someone wanted to copy most of the site, you'd just set up an LLC to own the new website. If Juggle sued, at best they would make the LLC go bankrupt, but at worst, they'd still lose (because someone like Logical-Master represented the LLC for a free XD) and run up hundreds of thousands of dollars in legal costs.

Just throwing all this out there. I have heard some interest from people to leave the site and to program something better. It could be a real moneymaker. It would take some work by all the users (assuming you guys want to keep your current record), but if people put in the work, you could end up with someone in charge of the site who is much more responsive to users (such as TUF, Larz, etc).

and or buy out
000ike
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3/15/2014 11:51:32 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/15/2014 8:14:22 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
I hate to say it but a DDO user fee might be necessary.

Think about it, only the people who really love the site and are dedicated to it would pay to use it, most of the trash would be filtered out and Juggle get's their money they want so badly.

It's a win win. I'll make a more formal post about this later but for now. Think about it.

Might as well cede all site traffic to createdebate. No one will pay money to debate online when there are other sites to do it for free.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,285
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3/16/2014 12:55:35 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Having returned from a recent absence, the difference is particularly stark to me, and I can definitely trace some of the drop in quality to users brought in via the opinion section. Before that, DDO was a site composed of people who came here to extensively debate and discuss contentious issues. Most of the older members were possessed of staggering intellects, to the point that I was at first incredibly intimidated. That tension, the sparks that flew when I was up against someone who could not only stand up to me, but overcome me was what kept me coming back; an active mind needs another active mind like a knife needs a whetstone. Now, however, everything seems more soft and yielding. Points aren't delved into, premises aren't addressed, and you just end up with two people saying what they think over and over again in different terms. Good conversations are becoming more and more rare, and that spells the spiritual, if not corporeal, death of a debate site.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
bladerunner060
Posts: 7,126
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3/16/2014 2:15:06 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/15/2014 7:43:13 PM, YYW wrote:
tl;dr: It should be no surprise that DDO has been put on the back burner. If you want to know why, read on.

I think the biggest problem is a lack of vision--and we probably agree, but I'm a'gonna say it all different-like:

I don't think Our Benevolent Hosts have a real idea of what they want this site to be.

Have you ever gone here?

http://www.juggle.com...

(And, for some reason, Chrome thinks the site's in Japanese, and wants to know if I want it translated, which is just weird since it isn't)

While you're there, take a look at the other sites under the "Our Companies" banner. Click around on them. Then look back here. Notice what's missing?

There's no drive--no purpose which produces money that the site is geared towards. Their writing website (which I'd actually never been to before today...) seems like it's really just a way to get more folks in for Crowdsourcing content--so it's directly linked to that, which is directly linked to making product.

DDO is directly linked to nothing but the paltry sum provided by the ad revenue--and ad revenue usually ain't that great (particularly since, frankly, the ad system on here...leaves something to be desired).

There are ways this lack of production could be fixed. I can think of a dozen off-hand, depending on what kind of product they want to pursue with the property.

Each one would merely require effort, and here's the thing: they didn't build this site (well, they did--but they didn't build it from scratch, and they didn't build the community). It was already a living thing before they got here. I feel like it's a bit alien to them. Not quite their normal sort of thing, per se, though it's not wildly outside of their understanding or anything. It is, after all, a website community.

(just for reference's sake: http://ddo.wikia.com... )

They bought it, I think (and hey, I'm still a relative newby, so I'm sure the real historians like A. Irmax or Doctor I. Mabench, FRHistS can correct any of my misconceptions) as a portfolio builder--back when they were a 2 year old baby company, the founders still relatively fresh off selling MonsterCommerce. They didn't have as many sites under their belt. DDO looked nice, was already robust, shows that you've got the chops to generate and maintain a community: score!

But at the risk of seeming negative to Our Benevolent Hosts, I don't feel like they really have a vision of what this place is for them. Time passed, and DDO isn't as useful as a portfolio piece anymore--they've got their OWN pieces with enough foundation and utility that having one more just to have it is less useful. I don't know how many major updates there were...but I suspect that, 3 years in, they decided to do a major revamp just to do it. But, since it was an exercise in wheel-spinning (or maybe it was a test with its own utility, I dunno), it didn't solve the problem, it just let it look like someone was doing something, and Doing Something is always good, right?

Of course, eventually the wheels stopped spinning. The next quick answer was, as you note, the gimmicky one: get more hits. But I'm not entirely sure they had a real plan of what to do with those hits, really--unless there was some reason they wanted to prove they could generate pageviews.

OBH need to figure out how to make this place into something profitable--and not through charging users, since it will likely cause an exodus. Not through ads, because that's not something that generates decent money from a community like this unless you are a meme-generator (and maybe that was the hope--that the polls and opinions section could function in similar, but vastly different manner as things like BuzzFeed, generating pageviews and hits that translated into ad dollars. Can't say it's a plan I would have ever thought would be successful, if it was the plan, but hey, can't necessarily hurt to try). These aren't real visions--they're attempts to throw a coat of spackle on this frame.

They have a resource: opinionated people invested in this site, with too much time on their hands, covering a vast swath of positions, ideologies, and experiences. In a perfect world, one where someone has a vision, they can use that resource to get product to generate revenue. That sounds cynical, but it could be mutually beneficial if done right--and there are some right ways to do it that would still hold true to the idea of the site as those of us who have been on awhile view it. A way that would fire up the users who are here, after all, for debate and community. There are also less-savory methods, too, which might be disdained but which might be effective. Like I said, I can think of rather a lot of directions, and I'm not the brightest crayon in the box, so undoubtedly there's more.

I fear they have little to no interest in that. Expanding in this direction seems to me not something they're likely to do...which means this site may soon become the proverbial albatross. I fear the site may suffer and may become dilapidated. But I could be wrong.
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dylancatlow
Posts: 12,245
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3/16/2014 12:33:07 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/16/2014 12:55:35 AM, Skepsikyma wrote:
Having returned from a recent absence, the difference is particularly stark to me, and I can definitely trace some of the drop in quality to users brought in via the opinion section. Before that, DDO was a site composed of people who came here to extensively debate and discuss contentious issues. Most of the older members were possessed of staggering intellects, to the point that I was at first incredibly intimidated. That tension, the sparks that flew when I was up against someone who could not only stand up to me, but overcome me was what kept me coming back; an active mind needs another active mind like a knife needs a whetstone. Now, however, everything seems more soft and yielding. Points aren't delved into, premises aren't addressed, and you just end up with two people saying what they think over and over again in different terms. Good conversations are becoming more and more rare, and that spells the spiritual, if not corporeal, death of a debate site.

Definitely agree. I think DDO has entered into a vicious circle, whereby high-quality members are less inclined to participate because the quality has declined, which then perpetrates further decline. I'm not sure how this can be stopped.
ADreamOfLiberty
Posts: 1,570
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3/16/2014 12:40:45 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/15/2014 7:43:13 PM, YYW wrote:
The greater problem is Juggle's failure to understand and/or accept what makes DDO unique, and why users come to this site.

What does make DDO unique?
LOL, yeah, it's pretty amazing how they think they can "reason" with you. - Sidewalker, speaking of advocates for sexual deviancy.

So, my advice, Liberty, is to go somewhere else. Leave, and never come back. - YYW

And that's what I did. Contact me at http://www.edeb8.com... by the same user name if you have anything you'd like to say.
ClassicRobert
Posts: 2,487
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3/16/2014 2:03:32 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I recommend a mass migration to edeb8, where the developer actually cares.
Debate me: Economic decision theory should be adjusted to include higher-order preferences for non-normative purposes http://www.debate.org...

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AnDoctuir
Posts: 11,060
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3/16/2014 2:27:16 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
OP hasn't a clue what he's talking about. In actual fact the only way Juggle are ever going to make any money off this site is with the gimicky, to take it away from the whole community base, which is essentially just people looking to attach significance to their name, and never goes far over 40 or 50 people for this reason - because the more people, the less significant the individual. Make it a silly little game on the other hand and you'll make money. Let people come here to express themselves in making 4chan-esque polls that disappear shortly after they've been made and you'll make money. Anyone who thinks that DDO has the potential for "great things" outside of that is just dumb. Most people don't want an internet persona.
AnDoctuir
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3/16/2014 2:47:50 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/16/2014 2:27:16 PM, AnDoctuir wrote:
OP hasn't a clue what he's talking about. In actual fact the only way Juggle are ever going to make any money off this site is with the gimicky, to take it away from the whole community base, which is essentially just people looking to attach significance to their name, and never goes far over 40 or 50 people for this reason - because the more people, the less significant the individual. Make it a silly little game on the other hand and you'll make money. Let people come here to express themselves in making 4chan-esque polls that disappear shortly after they've been made and you'll make money. Anyone who thinks that DDO has the potential for "great things" outside of that is just dumb. Most people don't want an internet persona.

It's the same on every site. The more subsections you have, the greater the user base. The DDO forums do not greatly facilitate this, and never will. Facebook allows for cloistered little communities. League of Legends and every other game allows for cloistered little communities, 4chan is zero community, just all madness, anonymous expression, release, and that also works. Here, we have a few users to each board, new to drown out the old, and that's it, it's never going to grow, but only reform or replenish, and you can moan all you like, but that's never going to change.