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Clarifications on the State of DDO

Mikal
Posts: 11,270
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3/18/2014 11:34:28 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
There are some things that need to be touched on.

(1) Do not lose hope in the state of the website

While juggle may have temporarily diverted resources to other avenues this does not meant the website is crashing and burning, not by any means. They just simply replaced alex as the primary go to person.

(2) Updates

This does not mean we are not going to get them, it just means it may be delayed temporarily and we need to focus on what we can accomplish at the present time. Updates are still possible, they just may not be likely for the next month or so. This has occurred in the past and will continue to occur. Juggle manages more than just DDO so they have to focus on certain projects at certain points. We can still get updates and fixes as we have in the past, just maybe not when we want them. This is not a "give it to me now" situation, but one we will have to continue to work and press for as we progress.

(3) Errors

This is not a sign of juggles lack of caring or them removing resources. We still have the same tools in this aspect and it has nothing to do with juggle focusing on another project for the month. The error issue is just due to a massive overhaul (In my opinion probably related to the poll and opinion sections), but this is nothing new and will continue to be promptly fixed if it pops up

Ending

Don't lose hope. The only thing that happened is that juggle has sent some resources to another project for about a month or so. This does not mean that the site is dying or dead. It just means they are doing something they have did in the past and will continue to do at some points. They are a business and have to focus on multiple projects.

We still have almost all the resources that were available to us before and nothing has changed other than us having to re prioritize what we ask them for. It may just be a brief delay on some updates we want to see.

We can still advocate and push for them and I promise TUF and myself will not give up on the hopes of getting them installed. We are working on other angles for now such as the presentation I have mentioned before.

Keep up the hope yo, really almost nothing has changed. It is the community that makes this site, and we have a hell of a good one. Keep doing what you do and the rest will come

I have been on facebook, twitter, google +, instagram, online gaming, and have met tens of thousands of people. The friends I have made on this site and met on here are the best group of people I have ever had the privilege of meeting online. This is also by far the best community I have even been a part of. There may be rage wars once in a while and some people do not get along but that is with anything in life. We do have and will continue to have one of the best user bases on the web right now. Everyone on here is extremely devoted and a valued member of the community. We continue to get some great members that contribute to site quality and this is a trend I hope that will continue. Thanks to everyone who has stuck with the site and that will continue sticking with it. You guys are the reason this site will always be around and the reason it has made it to where it is now.

Thanks again
YYW
Posts: 36,249
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3/18/2014 11:45:25 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/18/2014 11:34:28 AM, Mikal wrote:
There are some things that need to be touched on.

(1) Do not lose hope in the state of the website

While juggle may have temporarily diverted resources to other avenues this does not meant the website is crashing and burning, not by any means. They just simply replaced alex as the primary go to person.

Correct.

(2) Updates

This does not mean we are not going to get them, it just means it may be delayed temporarily and we need to focus on what we can accomplish at the present time. Updates are still possible, they just may not be likely for the next month or so. This has occurred in the past and will continue to occur. Juggle manages more than just DDO so they have to focus on certain projects at certain points. We can still get updates and fixes as we have in the past, just maybe not when we want them. This is not a "give it to me now" situation, but one we will have to continue to work and press for as we progress.

You and TUF just need to realize that strong arming Juggle isn't an effective way to get Juggle to do anything.

(3) Errors

This is not a sign of juggles lack of caring or them removing resources. We still have the same tools in this aspect and it has nothing to do with juggle focusing on another project for the month. The error issue is just due to a massive overhaul (In my opinion probably related to the poll and opinion sections), but this is nothing new and will continue to be promptly fixed if it pops up

The overhaul is an indication that Juggle doesn't have a coherent vision for the site, and the error is an indication that they have not allocated sufficient resources to keeping the site up and running.

Ending

Don't lose hope. The only thing that happened is that juggle has sent some resources to another project for about a month or so. This does not mean that the site is dying or dead. It just means they are doing something they have did in the past and will continue to do at some points. They are a business and have to focus on multiple projects.

The site lives to the extent that the community is vibrant. That is all.
Tsar of DDO
Mikal
Posts: 11,270
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3/18/2014 11:47:48 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/18/2014 11:45:25 AM, YYW wrote:
At 3/18/2014 11:34:28 AM, Mikal wrote:
There are some things that need to be touched on.

(1) Do not lose hope in the state of the website

While juggle may have temporarily diverted resources to other avenues this does not meant the website is crashing and burning, not by any means. They just simply replaced alex as the primary go to person.

Correct.

(2) Updates

This does not mean we are not going to get them, it just means it may be delayed temporarily and we need to focus on what we can accomplish at the present time. Updates are still possible, they just may not be likely for the next month or so. This has occurred in the past and will continue to occur. Juggle manages more than just DDO so they have to focus on certain projects at certain points. We can still get updates and fixes as we have in the past, just maybe not when we want them. This is not a "give it to me now" situation, but one we will have to continue to work and press for as we progress.

You and TUF just need to realize that strong arming Juggle isn't an effective way to get Juggle to do anything

not strong arming. Just trying to focus on projects that can actually succeed. Some are not going to at this present point, but we can get some through.

(3) Errors

This is not a sign of juggles lack of caring or them removing resources. We still have the same tools in this aspect and it has nothing to do with juggle focusing on another project for the month. The error issue is just due to a massive overhaul (In my opinion probably related to the poll and opinion sections), but this is nothing new and will continue to be promptly fixed if it pops up

The overhaul is an indication that Juggle doesn't have a coherent vision for the site, and the error is an indication that they have not allocated sufficient resources to keeping the site up and running.

That is still not getting this fixed. They want hits and views and this will accompany it but it will continue to be fixed. Message max or someone, it usually is gone within under an hour or way less. There is probably no way to avoid this

Ending

Don't lose hope. The only thing that happened is that juggle has sent some resources to another project for about a month or so. This does not mean that the site is dying or dead. It just means they are doing something they have did in the past and will continue to do at some points. They are a business and have to focus on multiple projects.

The site lives to the extent that the community is vibrant. That is all.

That was the point
YYW
Posts: 36,249
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3/18/2014 11:52:47 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/18/2014 11:47:48 AM, Mikal wrote:
At 3/18/2014 11:45:25 AM, YYW wrote:
At 3/18/2014 11:34:28 AM, Mikal wrote:
There are some things that need to be touched on.

(1) Do not lose hope in the state of the website

While juggle may have temporarily diverted resources to other avenues this does not meant the website is crashing and burning, not by any means. They just simply replaced alex as the primary go to person.

Correct.

(2) Updates

This does not mean we are not going to get them, it just means it may be delayed temporarily and we need to focus on what we can accomplish at the present time. Updates are still possible, they just may not be likely for the next month or so. This has occurred in the past and will continue to occur. Juggle manages more than just DDO so they have to focus on certain projects at certain points. We can still get updates and fixes as we have in the past, just maybe not when we want them. This is not a "give it to me now" situation, but one we will have to continue to work and press for as we progress.

You and TUF just need to realize that strong arming Juggle isn't an effective way to get Juggle to do anything

not strong arming. Just trying to focus on projects that can actually succeed. Some are not going to at this present point, but we can get some through.

I'm not saying that you can or can't, because I don't know... and you guys don't either. I think it's reasonable to hope that you can, but what happens or doesn't is in Juggle's hands, and repeatedly pressing them for stuff may not be the most effective strategy if they've already said, "not now."


(3) Errors

This is not a sign of juggles lack of caring or them removing resources. We still have the same tools in this aspect and it has nothing to do with juggle focusing on another project for the month. The error issue is just due to a massive overhaul (In my opinion probably related to the poll and opinion sections), but this is nothing new and will continue to be promptly fixed if it pops up

The overhaul is an indication that Juggle doesn't have a coherent vision for the site, and the error is an indication that they have not allocated sufficient resources to keeping the site up and running.

That is still not getting this fixed. They want hits and views and this will accompany it but it will continue to be fixed. Message max or someone, it usually is gone within under an hour or way less. There is probably no way to avoid this

The issue is that it keeps coming back, Mikil, which means that there is a recurrent problem that they aren't actually addressing, which means that they haven't allocated sufficient resources to actually fix what's causing the problem in a way that it doesn't become a problem again.


Ending

Don't lose hope. The only thing that happened is that juggle has sent some resources to another project for about a month or so. This does not mean that the site is dying or dead. It just means they are doing something they have did in the past and will continue to do at some points. They are a business and have to focus on multiple projects.

The site lives to the extent that the community is vibrant. That is all.

That was the point
Tsar of DDO
Mikal
Posts: 11,270
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3/18/2014 11:59:42 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/18/2014 11:52:47 AM, YYW wrote:
At 3/18/2014 11:47:48 AM, Mikal wrote:
At 3/18/2014 11:45:25 AM, YYW wrote:
At 3/18/2014 11:34:28 AM, Mikal wrote:
There are some things that need to be touched on.

(1) Do not lose hope in the state of the website

While juggle may have temporarily diverted resources to other avenues this does not meant the website is crashing and burning, not by any means. They just simply replaced alex as the primary go to person.

Correct.

(2) Updates

This does not mean we are not going to get them, it just means it may be delayed temporarily and we need to focus on what we can accomplish at the present time. Updates are still possible, they just may not be likely for the next month or so. This has occurred in the past and will continue to occur. Juggle manages more than just DDO so they have to focus on certain projects at certain points. We can still get updates and fixes as we have in the past, just maybe not when we want them. This is not a "give it to me now" situation, but one we will have to continue to work and press for as we progress.

You and TUF just need to realize that strong arming Juggle isn't an effective way to get Juggle to do anything

not strong arming. Just trying to focus on projects that can actually succeed. Some are not going to at this present point, but we can get some through.

I'm not saying that you can or can't, because I don't know... and you guys don't either. I think it's reasonable to hope that you can, but what happens or doesn't is in Juggle's hands, and repeatedly pressing them for stuff may not be the most effective strategy if they've already said, "not now."

I concur entirely, but there are other avenues that we can focus on besides specific updates or updates in general. Even if it is just fixes. There are always things we can work on. Strong arming will not work nor has it ever worked. We have to work with them


(3) Errors

This is not a sign of juggles lack of caring or them removing resources. We still have the same tools in this aspect and it has nothing to do with juggle focusing on another project for the month. The error issue is just due to a massive overhaul (In my opinion probably related to the poll and opinion sections), but this is nothing new and will continue to be promptly fixed if it pops up

The overhaul is an indication that Juggle doesn't have a coherent vision for the site, and the error is an indication that they have not allocated sufficient resources to keeping the site up and running.

That is still not getting this fixed. They want hits and views and this will accompany it but it will continue to be fixed. Message max or someone, it usually is gone within under an hour or way less. There is probably no way to avoid this

The issue is that it keeps coming back, Mikil, which means that there is a recurrent problem that they aren't actually addressing, which means that they haven't allocated sufficient resources to actually fix what's causing the problem in a way that it doesn't become a problem again.

The reality of that is slim sadly. With their vision for hits and views it will be an occurring problem when they are trying to balance their resources. I am sure they are limited, we just have to work with the fixes the best we can. As of now if we can get it fixed pretty quickly that is sufficient, and just continue to hope at some point they can allocate more sources to the site and devote the sources to stopping stuff like that.


Ending

Don't lose hope. The only thing that happened is that juggle has sent some resources to another project for about a month or so. This does not mean that the site is dying or dead. It just means they are doing something they have did in the past and will continue to do at some points. They are a business and have to focus on multiple projects.

The site lives to the extent that the community is vibrant. That is all.

That was the point
AnDoctuir
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3/18/2014 12:06:28 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
YYW likes to pretend like he has a clue what he's talking about. RoyLatham likes to think himself above the opinion's section. I get a good chuckle from delusion and bias. Oh, and there are some errors or something, lol.
Eitan_Zohar
Posts: 2,697
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3/18/2014 12:19:09 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Bill Gates needs to buy this goddamn thing. He's into educational resources, isn't he? Why not DDO?
"It is my ambition to say in ten sentences what others say in a whole book."
ConservativePolitico
Posts: 8,210
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3/18/2014 12:23:19 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/18/2014 12:19:09 PM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
Bill Gates needs to buy this goddamn thing. He's into educational resources, isn't he? Why not DDO?

That'd be a good idea lol
Mikal
Posts: 11,270
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3/18/2014 12:25:27 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/18/2014 12:23:19 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
At 3/18/2014 12:19:09 PM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
Bill Gates needs to buy this goddamn thing. He's into educational resources, isn't he? Why not DDO?

That'd be a good idea lol

or we all invest 1k and pitch in lol

i think its worth 500k
bluesteel
Posts: 12,301
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3/18/2014 12:35:44 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Mikal, I agree the site has a set of really awesome core users. However, a lot of Juggle's features for the site are not designed for those cores users (e.g. opinions, polls, and blog). See my criticism of that here, which for whatever reason Julia has chosen not to respond to, either because it got buried or Juggle doesn't have a response: http://www.debate.org...

Sites deserve to die when they stop caring about their core users. While Facebook is notorious about pushing features that it users initially don't like, Facebook *does* remove the feature if users refuse to adopt it. I don't think anyone on here uses the opinion section seriously or thinks it is a worthwhile feature. And did any of you know there's a blog on here? It won't let you become a blogger - supposedly the admin has control over that. It's to spew out articles to generate more hits.

Juggle needs to be more responsive or face losing users. According to TUF, he has basically programmed a lot of the new features himself and sent it to Juggle. Juggle just doesn't care to take the time to implement the code. "Not having time" is a meh excuse. Imagine if Zuckerberg told users he didn't have time to roll out updates to Facebook. Or imagine if Facebook was down on half the weekends of a given month.

It's one thing to say you care. It's another to actually show you care about a site by devoting resources to it. I can't imagine any other serious website pulling all of its staff away from the website for long periods of time and still hoping to succeed.

The issue is that with only about 100 core users and nothing proprietary about the site, there's really nothing stopping people from going to a new site. My recommendation would be to see if Juggle really does push updates more quickly and if not, to defect to another site.

A lot of people already volunteer their time on here to help Juggle. I think this site has potential. If those same people ran another site, they'd probably be able to pay themselves in a few years. But updates would have to be done more regularly and people would have to think seriously about how to attract new, dedicated users. If users were preferenced over page views, the site would improve quicker.

Personally, one change I'd really like to see is to the forums. I'd want a system more like Reddit, where if two people are squaring off in the forums, other people can up and down vote responses. That way, the "best" response to one person's argument ends up on top and there's an actual incentive for other people (other than simply the two people arguing) to respond. The forums on this site right now are garbage. I rarely ever see any long serious threads, except those in which two people are arguing with each other like crazy and ignoring anyone else that tries to participate. Improving the format forum, taking out the needless chaff, and focusing on the core users and the core value of the site (honest debate) could make this site live up to its potential.
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)
Mikal
Posts: 11,270
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3/18/2014 12:38:45 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/18/2014 12:35:44 PM, bluesteel wrote:
Mikal, I agree the site has a set of really awesome core users. However, a lot of Juggle's features for the site are not designed for those cores users (e.g. opinions, polls, and blog). See my criticism of that here, which for whatever reason Julia has chosen not to respond to, either because it got buried or Juggle doesn't have a response: http://www.debate.org...

If i bought the site, I would nuke both of them. Trust me I am not a fan, but there is noo way to get rid of them


Sites deserve to die when they stop caring about their core users. While Facebook is notorious about pushing features that it users initially don't like, Facebook *does* remove the feature if users refuse to adopt it. I don't think anyone on here uses the opinion section seriously or thinks it is a worthwhile feature. And did any of you know there's a blog on here? It won't let you become a blogger - supposedly the admin has control over that. It's to spew out articles to generate more hits.

Juggle needs to be more responsive or face losing users. According to TUF, he has basically programmed a lot of the new features himself and sent it to Juggle. Juggle just doesn't care to take the time to implement the code. "Not having time" is a meh excuse. Imagine if Zuckerberg told users he didn't have time to roll out updates to Facebook. Or imagine if Facebook was down on half the weekends of a given month.

He has offered to do most of the updates himself yeah and agree.

It's one thing to say you care. It's another to actually show you care about a site by devoting resources to it. I can't imagine any other serious website pulling all of its staff away from the website for long periods of time and still hoping to succeed.

The issue is that with only about 100 core users and nothing proprietary about the site, there's really nothing stopping people from going to a new site. My recommendation would be to see if Juggle really does push updates more quickly and if not, to defect to another site.

A lot of people already volunteer their time on here to help Juggle. I think this site has potential. If those same people ran another site, they'd probably be able to pay themselves in a few years. But updates would have to be done more regularly and people would have to think seriously about how to attract new, dedicated users. If users were preferenced over page views, the site would improve quicker.

Personally, one change I'd really like to see is to the forums. I'd want a system more like Reddit, where if two people are squaring off in the forums, other people can up and down vote responses. That way, the "best" response to one person's argument ends up on top and there's an actual incentive for other people (other than simply the two people arguing) to respond. The forums on this site right now are garbage. I rarely ever see any long serious threads, except those in which two people are arguing with each other like crazy and ignoring anyone else that tries to participate. Improving the format forum, taking out the needless chaff, and focusing on the core users and the core value of the site (honest debate) could make this site live up to its potential.

I wish I had the money to buy it myself but we are going to have to work with them though. Nothing much else we can do.
Mikal
Posts: 11,270
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3/18/2014 12:38:45 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/18/2014 12:35:44 PM, bluesteel wrote:
Mikal, I agree the site has a set of really awesome core users. However, a lot of Juggle's features for the site are not designed for those cores users (e.g. opinions, polls, and blog). See my criticism of that here, which for whatever reason Julia has chosen not to respond to, either because it got buried or Juggle doesn't have a response: http://www.debate.org...

If i bought the site, I would nuke both of them. Trust me I am not a fan, but there is noo way to get rid of them


Sites deserve to die when they stop caring about their core users. While Facebook is notorious about pushing features that it users initially don't like, Facebook *does* remove the feature if users refuse to adopt it. I don't think anyone on here uses the opinion section seriously or thinks it is a worthwhile feature. And did any of you know there's a blog on here? It won't let you become a blogger - supposedly the admin has control over that. It's to spew out articles to generate more hits.

Juggle needs to be more responsive or face losing users. According to TUF, he has basically programmed a lot of the new features himself and sent it to Juggle. Juggle just doesn't care to take the time to implement the code. "Not having time" is a meh excuse. Imagine if Zuckerberg told users he didn't have time to roll out updates to Facebook. Or imagine if Facebook was down on half the weekends of a given month.

He has offered to do most of the updates himself yeah and agree.

It's one thing to say you care. It's another to actually show you care about a site by devoting resources to it. I can't imagine any other serious website pulling all of its staff away from the website for long periods of time and still hoping to succeed.

The issue is that with only about 100 core users and nothing proprietary about the site, there's really nothing stopping people from going to a new site. My recommendation would be to see if Juggle really does push updates more quickly and if not, to defect to another site.

A lot of people already volunteer their time on here to help Juggle. I think this site has potential. If those same people ran another site, they'd probably be able to pay themselves in a few years. But updates would have to be done more regularly and people would have to think seriously about how to attract new, dedicated users. If users were preferenced over page views, the site would improve quicker.

Personally, one change I'd really like to see is to the forums. I'd want a system more like Reddit, where if two people are squaring off in the forums, other people can up and down vote responses. That way, the "best" response to one person's argument ends up on top and there's an actual incentive for other people (other than simply the two people arguing) to respond. The forums on this site right now are garbage. I rarely ever see any long serious threads, except those in which two people are arguing with each other like crazy and ignoring anyone else that tries to participate. Improving the format forum, taking out the needless chaff, and focusing on the core users and the core value of the site (honest debate) could make this site live up to its potential.

I wish I had the money to buy it myself but we are going to have to work with them though. Nothing much else we can do.
AnDoctuir
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3/18/2014 12:40:21 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
This is like when Phil sucked as DDO's owner, only with a whole load of new members complaining. Does anyone have a thread where Phil says goodbye or something, btw? I seem to have completely missed the sale.
Mikal
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3/18/2014 12:46:15 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
well agree minus the site dying. I don't think it deserves to die especially with all the work and effort the users put into it. I just think we have to find new angles :/
bluesteel
Posts: 12,301
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3/18/2014 12:47:36 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
The forums should look something more like this: http://www.createdebate.com...

@Mikal

We can go to edeb8.com or start our own site, if people are willing to program it. We're not stuck here. Every time you say you're stuck, Juggle makes a mental note that it doesn't really have to push updates to keep people.
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)
Mikal
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3/18/2014 12:50:22 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/18/2014 12:47:36 PM, bluesteel wrote:
The forums should look something more like this: http://www.createdebate.com...

@Mikal

We can go to edeb8.com or start our own site, if people are willing to program it. We're not stuck here. Every time you say you're stuck, Juggle makes a mental note that it doesn't really have to push updates to keep people.

i love the site to much, i dont want to give up hope it will improve and continue to improve. I will see in the future if my hopes are in vain but hopes i still have lol
bluesteel
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3/18/2014 12:55:30 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/18/2014 12:50:22 PM, Mikal wrote:

i love the site to much, i dont want to give up hope it will improve and continue to improve. I will see in the future if my hopes are in vain but hopes i still have lol

Einstein's definition of insanity... :/

(refusing to generalize future results based on consistent evidence of past results)
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)
AnDoctuir
Posts: 11,060
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3/18/2014 12:57:50 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
As regards bluesteel, DDO is attracting new users with its opinion and polls section, a new kind of user, almost straight out of arguments on YouTube - which could then be said to lower some threshold barring people from the site, and it's not like that's scaring anyone away. I mean have we seen a decrease in forum users? No. Oh, but 15 people might leave because they didn't get Team Debates, lmao. I mean I get just wanting something or whatever, but no need to be ridiculous about it. And EDEB8 is doomed right from the very start. It's never ever going to amount to anything and that Larz dude is nothing short of just hilarious. Most of you are absolutely ridiculous and have no idea how the internet works.
YYW
Posts: 36,249
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3/18/2014 1:04:11 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/18/2014 12:47:36 PM, bluesteel wrote:
The forums should look something more like this: http://www.createdebate.com...

So, this is one of those situations where I take solace in the knowledge that most of the ideas that get proposed will never happen. The idea of changing the forums to something like Reddit, or copying create debate in any way, is absurd. If you don't like it here, then leave.

The problem is not the site interface, but the users who are here. The interface certainly has an impact on the site's culture, but the kinds of modifications you're proposing are going to reward what most people like -which is nonsense, especially when you're factoring in who actually comes to the site now (a majority is brought in from the opinion section and polls). So, the stuff that those people like will rise to the top, and the stuff of real value will be overlooked.

The basic idea behind this is that the site's culture itself needs to be the filtering mechanism for bullsh!t, such that users who pollute the forums are not rewarded for doing so, and those who actually make valuable contributions (like an insightful post on gender norms, a debate about the death penalty or a perspective on US foreign relations, among many others subjects) are incentivized to make those contributions.

What people complain about most is the fact that DDO has lost it's intellectual edge, but the reason for that perception is as much to do with the fact that the volume of really hard content in the forums has decreased while the amount of fluff has increased. Relative to one another, the impact of that trend is amplified by the fact that really good content just isn't posted to begin with, often because some of the best users have left the site.

But rather, who remains is people talking about nonsense (if you want to know what I mean by that, have a look at the polls and opinion sections), people who complain about nonsense's right to be posted here (those who oppose censorship from moderators, but then propose ideas that are actually going to amplify the very thing they're intending to counter), and those who never wanted to invest any substantive amount of thought in a post to begin with -or some combination thereof. So, your idea to have posts be rated up or down like Reddit isn't going to actually ensure that the best content rises to the top, because the only thing that would rise in your world is the content which is the most popular.
Tsar of DDO
AnDoctuir
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3/18/2014 1:09:53 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
What Juggle should do is try to make DDO like the grand debating stage, like RevLeft and Mises under one roof. Hugely expand the forums with an emphasis on politics, which is where debate is at really. Just put enough distance between different factions to allow them to be something independent, only with massive debate clashes in the middle and trolling and it'd be great. Putin might even put in an appearance. Obama vs. Putin, internet face-off 2014. Either that or porn.
AnDoctuir
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3/18/2014 1:23:36 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
DDO's losing its intellectual edge consists of Danielle having left, Puck and belle having hooked up and left, and . . . oh, that's it. YYW spends his time on DDO cybersexing other members and still throws out such pretentiousness, it's hilarious.

Really, it's that everyone on the Leaderboard is so well established, if argument is seriously to be made for DDO having lost its edge. Introducing trophies that appear on profiles might rectify that. Really incorporate tournaments into the site. Not that it'd be worth any money to Juggle though. You're still dealing in small community there.
YYW
Posts: 36,249
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3/18/2014 1:25:38 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/18/2014 1:04:11 PM, YYW wrote:
At 3/18/2014 12:47:36 PM, bluesteel wrote:
The forums should look something more like this: http://www.createdebate.com...

So, this is one of those situations where I take solace in the knowledge that most of the ideas that get proposed will never happen. The idea of changing the forums to something like Reddit, or copying create debate in any way, is absurd. If you don't like it here, then leave.

The problem is not the site interface, but the users who are here. The interface certainly has an impact on the site's culture, but the kinds of modifications you're proposing are going to reward what most people like -which is nonsense, especially when you're factoring in who actually comes to the site now (a majority is brought in from the opinion section and polls). So, the stuff that those people like will rise to the top, and the stuff of real value will be overlooked.

The basic idea behind this is that the site's culture itself needs to be the filtering mechanism for bullsh!t, such that users who pollute the forums are not rewarded for doing so, and those who actually make valuable contributions (like an insightful post on gender norms, a debate about the death penalty or a perspective on US foreign relations, among many others subjects) are incentivized to make those contributions.

What people complain about most is the fact that DDO has lost it's intellectual edge, but the reason for that perception is as much to do with the fact that the volume of really hard content in the forums has decreased while the amount of fluff has increased. Relative to one another, the impact of that trend is amplified by the fact that really good content just isn't posted to begin with, often because some of the best users have left the site.

But rather, who remains is people talking about nonsense (if you want to know what I mean by that, have a look at the polls and opinion sections), people who complain about nonsense's right to be posted here (those who oppose censorship from moderators, but then propose ideas that are actually going to amplify the very thing they're intending to counter), and those who never wanted to invest any substantive amount of thought in a post to begin with -or some combination thereof. So, your idea to have posts be rated up or down like Reddit isn't going to actually ensure that the best content rises to the top, because the only thing that would rise in your world is the content which is the most popular, and what is most popular isn't the best content.

Since you like reddit so much, though, I'll give you a tl;dr:

Yours is a bad idea because it's going to make worse the problem you're trying to solve.
Tsar of DDO
AnDoctuir
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3/18/2014 1:33:26 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I honestly don't know how you people can be such bullsh*tting retards. It's awe-inspiring. I guess it's like CP's recent increasing in volume because he's really starting to feel like a retard now (thank god): that you've just got to make the best of what you've got. And that Julia lady thought he was "passionate" - I laughed.
bluesteel
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3/18/2014 1:44:44 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/18/2014 1:04:11 PM, YYW wrote:
At 3/18/2014 12:47:36 PM, bluesteel wrote:
The forums should look something more like this: http://www.createdebate.com...

So, this is one of those situations where I take solace in the knowledge that most of the ideas that get proposed will never happen. The idea of changing the forums to something like Reddit, or copying create debate in any way, is absurd. If you don't like it here, then leave.

The problem is not the site interface, but the users who are here. The interface certainly has an impact on the site's culture, but the kinds of modifications you're proposing are going to reward what most people like -which is nonsense, especially when you're factoring in who actually comes to the site now (a majority is brought in from the opinion section and polls). So, the stuff that those people like will rise to the top, and the stuff of real value will be overlooked.

The basic idea behind this is that the site's culture itself needs to be the filtering mechanism for bullsh!t, such that users who pollute the forums are not rewarded for doing so, and those who actually make valuable contributions (like an insightful post on gender norms, a debate about the death penalty or a perspective on US foreign relations, among many others subjects) are incentivized to make those contributions.

What people complain about most is the fact that DDO has lost it's intellectual edge, but the reason for that perception is as much to do with the fact that the volume of really hard content in the forums has decreased while the amount of fluff has increased. Relative to one another, the impact of that trend is amplified by the fact that really good content just isn't posted to begin with, often because some of the best users have left the site.

But rather, who remains is people talking about nonsense (if you want to know what I mean by that, have a look at the polls and opinion sections), people who complain about nonsense's right to be posted here (those who oppose censorship from moderators, but then propose ideas that are actually going to amplify the very thing they're intending to counter), and those who never wanted to invest any substantive amount of thought in a post to begin with -or some combination thereof. So, your idea to have posts be rated up or down like Reddit isn't going to actually ensure that the best content rises to the top, because the only thing that would rise in your world is the content which is the most popular.

I upvote this if I could :P

I think you have a point, but there are ways to address it. The forums are currently unreadable unless you're willing to spend significant amounts of time, since if the thread is already on page 4, that's like 30 posts of sometimes 8K each, which is far more than reading a single debate. I'm sure there's a middle ground of some sort between pure upvoting and pure non-preferencing of posts.
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)
YYW
Posts: 36,249
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3/18/2014 1:54:17 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/18/2014 1:44:44 PM, bluesteel wrote:
At 3/18/2014 1:04:11 PM, YYW wrote:
At 3/18/2014 12:47:36 PM, bluesteel wrote:
The forums should look something more like this: http://www.createdebate.com...

So, this is one of those situations where I take solace in the knowledge that most of the ideas that get proposed will never happen. The idea of changing the forums to something like Reddit, or copying create debate in any way, is absurd. If you don't like it here, then leave.

The problem is not the site interface, but the users who are here. The interface certainly has an impact on the site's culture, but the kinds of modifications you're proposing are going to reward what most people like -which is nonsense, especially when you're factoring in who actually comes to the site now (a majority is brought in from the opinion section and polls). So, the stuff that those people like will rise to the top, and the stuff of real value will be overlooked.

The basic idea behind this is that the site's culture itself needs to be the filtering mechanism for bullsh!t, such that users who pollute the forums are not rewarded for doing so, and those who actually make valuable contributions (like an insightful post on gender norms, a debate about the death penalty or a perspective on US foreign relations, among many others subjects) are incentivized to make those contributions.

What people complain about most is the fact that DDO has lost it's intellectual edge, but the reason for that perception is as much to do with the fact that the volume of really hard content in the forums has decreased while the amount of fluff has increased. Relative to one another, the impact of that trend is amplified by the fact that really good content just isn't posted to begin with, often because some of the best users have left the site.

But rather, who remains is people talking about nonsense (if you want to know what I mean by that, have a look at the polls and opinion sections), people who complain about nonsense's right to be posted here (those who oppose censorship from moderators, but then propose ideas that are actually going to amplify the very thing they're intending to counter), and those who never wanted to invest any substantive amount of thought in a post to begin with -or some combination thereof. So, your idea to have posts be rated up or down like Reddit isn't going to actually ensure that the best content rises to the top, because the only thing that would rise in your world is the content which is the most popular.

I upvote this if I could :P

I think you and I both have a pretty similar idea of what we want to see on this site. I think that the core group of members on the site, like Airmax, Roy, Mikil, Bladerunner, Thett, Bsh1, you, I, and etc. want to see people really put a decent amount of thought into something before they post it. We disagree about the particulars about whose right about that kind of "stuff" but we want the same kind of "stuff" in that there's a lot of quality. But, we're not the majority.

I think you have a point, but there are ways to address it. The forums are currently unreadable unless you're willing to spend significant amounts of time, since if the thread is already on page 4, that's like 30 posts of sometimes 8K each, which is far more than reading a single debate. I'm sure there's a middle ground of some sort between pure upvoting and pure non-preferencing of posts.

So, I agree that there's a problem here -but the problem is more easily and effectively remediated by just increasing the quality of really good content on the site -and that's on us, but it's also harder to do because it actually requires that we take the time to type it all out and think about it. It's much easier to get caught up in forum drama than it is to have a well thought out idea about something, which is why the volume of forum drama gets overwhelming at times.

But, by having all of us, and those who want the same stuff that we do, posting really good content, there are a few good things which come from it: the most obvious is that real discussions start to take place, the second is that the visibility of those discussions sets the narrative for what's expected on this site and those expectations begin to define posting norms. Juggle can't do that, either. We have to take the time to do it. I think it was Oliver Wendell Holmes who said that 'the best answer to bad speech is more speech.' The same principle applies here, to site content.
Tsar of DDO
AnDoctuir
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3/18/2014 1:57:46 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
That upvoting idea is actually a half-decent idea in terms of getting hit-and-run views, maybe bringing in a few more regular posters, but it's kinda depersonalising.
AnDoctuir
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3/18/2014 2:02:18 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/18/2014 1:57:46 PM, AnDoctuir wrote:
That upvoting idea is actually a half-decent idea in terms of getting hit-and-run views, maybe bringing in a few more regular posters, but it's kinda depersonalising.

It'd pretty much destroy anything really resembling community, rather; or at least if posts were shunted around the place based on the number of upvotes they had.
Debate.org_Official
Posts: 93
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3/18/2014 3:29:56 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/18/2014 12:35:44 PM, bluesteel wrote:
Mikal, I agree the site has a set of really awesome core users. However, a lot of Juggle's features for the site are not designed for those cores users (e.g. opinions, polls, and blog). See my criticism of that here, which for whatever reason Julia has chosen not to respond to, either because it got buried or Juggle doesn't have a response: http://www.debate.org...

I don't think anyone on here uses the opinion section seriously or thinks it is a worthwhile feature.

I will address your points here since you have brought them up. The reality is that the majority of what you refer to as the "core" users, have made many assumptions about what features get used on this site. I understand it, the group that considers themselves to be the "core" group are those primarily interested in the debates section of the site. As such, the benchmark of usage is compared against those who use the debate functionality and those who talk on the forums.

The user base of DDO is incredibly diverse. When I explain, as I did yesterday, that our vision for the site is "to create a flexible platform that allows people to debate, discuss and provide their opinions across all kind of topics", I meant it. Our goal is to provide tools that people actively use, that will encourage discussion and debates.

I will use some statistics to illustrate my points.

Since Jan. 1 2013:
34% of new users, use the opinions section (12% of this group also use debates)
10% of new users, participate in debates (38% of this group also uses opinions)
3% of new users, use the forums

That means an incredibly large contingent of the user base of DDO does not use the forums, where many of these types discussions take place. Their voice is not represented by the small fraction of the members who frequent the forum. It also means that comparatively the opinions section attracts more new, active users, than any of our other sections...combined.

This makes sense when you look at the traffic numbers of the site, which again, I will provide some statistics to illustrate the impact the opinions section has on DDO.

In the last 3 months:
47% of all of the traffic of DDO is driven by the opinions section
18% by debates
7.5% by forums

Again, the opinions section drives more traffic than the other main sections....combined.

So, while you may not want to use the opinions section yourself, it is not a section that we have any plans on removing. It is too heavily used and drives the most traffic to the site.

And did any of you know there's a blog on here? It won't let you become a blogger - supposedly the admin has control over that. It's to spew out articles to generate more hits.

To this point, I somewhat agree with you here. The blog was inherited from another site. It had a strong traffic draw and good rankings that we could use as a means to attract people to the site, but beyond that, it is not a tool that we expect our users to fully interact with. It provides traffic value and potential user acquisition, that is it.

Juggle needs to be more responsive or face losing users. According to TUF, he has basically programmed a lot of the new features himself and sent it to Juggle. Juggle just doesn't care to take the time to implement the code. "Not having time" is a meh excuse.

To my knowledge, TUF has not "coded" anything nor has it been presented to me for implementation. He has volunteered to help many times, something we appreciate, but is simply not feasible. Our response has not ever been as you have characterized. Many people on here make a number of assumptions without having any true understanding of our business, what we manage, or the resources we have.

It is not constructive to get into a technical discussion of our code base, architecture, or user database and explain why someone without intimate knowledge of those things wouldn't be able to create something that could truly be integrated with the site.

As I said to CP yesterday, we manage many, many more things than just Debate.org. Unlike Facebook, Debate.org is a component of our business, it is not our entire business. As such, we have to prioritize resources and time accordingly, especially to projects that generate revenue for our business.

To reiterate, we have allocated time in Q2, starting in April, to develop some new features and enhancements to the site. Many of you have already provided your ideas on what features you would like to see and I know TUF has a list as well. We will review the ideas, gather feedback, and implement features that make as many users happy as we can, including the "core" group who want improvements to the debates section.

A lot of people already volunteer their time on here to help Juggle. I think this site has potential.

Again, the most impactful way that the members on this site can help Juggle is to assist with quality control. YYW touches on an aspect of it in his post above, but I would also encourage those who are interested to participate in the quality control trial group referenced in this thread - http://www.debate.org...