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YYW
Posts: 36,357
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3/18/2014 11:27:33 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Juggle is a big company. It's got about about a low eight figure annual revenue, and it does a lot of neat things:

http://www.juggle.com...

DDO is but one small fraction of what they're up to.

I think this might be useful for people to be aware of...
Tsar of DDO
YYW
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3/18/2014 11:32:57 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I mean, really... that crowd sourcing thing they have, and the writing site. Those are both pretty damn cool.
Tsar of DDO
airmax1227
Posts: 13,244
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3/19/2014 12:27:35 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
In all the discussion about the site lately I think there is an important thing ignored by many members. While Juggle is a company, and a company has to produce revenue, it is also made up of real people who work hard and take pride in the work they do.

It should be apparent to everyone that DDO is just one asset among many for Juggle. While DDO is a part of Juggle's business, and it being a productive asset is beneficial to the company, this does not mean that it is the sole motivation of those Juggle employees who work on the site.

I've been lucky enough to have a relationship with several of those people, and I can say from knowing them, that like anyone who spends their time doing anything, there is a personal motivation that goes well beyond profit incentive. To point to the "entity of Juggle" and say it's motivated by profit (and this wouldn't be false), is to ignore the real people who very much want to see the site succeed, to see every member possible get the most out of it and to see those members enjoy it to the fullest extent possible. Sometimes these things conflict and there's no way to make everyone happy always, but those working on the site have the same types of goals as anyone working on anything; to see their work succeed and be appreciated.

I know from talking to members of Juggle's staff that this, above anything else, is their motivation. They understand that a business has to do what it has to do, but they very much want the site to be enjoyed by everyone, and they are passionate and motivated in the long-term to see it be as successful and enjoyable as possible.

DDO is a constant work in progress and it's not always going to be perfect, but I'm thankful that it has passionate staff who really do want to see it be the best site possible. While what makes it enjoyable might not be the same thing for everyone, all it takes is a quick conversation with any Juggle staffer working on DDO, to see how genuine their motivations for the site really are.
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Eitan_Zohar
Posts: 2,697
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3/19/2014 1:43:38 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/19/2014 12:27:35 AM, airmax1227 wrote:
In all the discussion about the site lately I think there is an important thing ignored by many members. While Juggle is a company, and a company has to produce revenue, it is also made up of real people who work hard and take pride in the work they do.

It should be apparent to everyone that DDO is just one asset among many for Juggle. While DDO is a part of Juggle's business, and it being a productive asset is beneficial to the company, this does not mean that it is the sole motivation of those Juggle employees who work on the site.

I've been lucky enough to have a relationship with several of those people, and I can say from knowing them, that like anyone who spends their time doing anything, there is a personal motivation that goes well beyond profit incentive. To point to the "entity of Juggle" and say it's motivated by profit (and this wouldn't be false), is to ignore the real people who very much want to see the site succeed, to see every member possible get the most out of it and to see those members enjoy it to the fullest extent possible. Sometimes these things conflict and there's no way to make everyone happy always, but those working on the site have the same types of goals as anyone working on anything; to see their work succeed and be appreciated.

I know from talking to members of Juggle's staff that this, above anything else, is their motivation. They understand that a business has to do what it has to do, but they very much want the site to be enjoyed by everyone, and they are passionate and motivated in the long-term to see it be as successful and enjoyable as possible.

DDO is a constant work in progress and it's not always going to be perfect, but I'm thankful that it has passionate staff who really do want to see it be the best site possible. While what makes it enjoyable might not be the same thing for everyone, all it takes is a quick conversation with any Juggle staffer working on DDO, to see how genuine their motivations for the site really are.

Ah, the fine art of PR.
"It is my ambition to say in ten sentences what others say in a whole book."
airmax1227
Posts: 13,244
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3/19/2014 1:54:52 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/19/2014 1:43:38 AM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
At 3/19/2014 12:27:35 AM, airmax1227 wrote:
In all the discussion about the site lately I think there is an important thing ignored by many members. While Juggle is a company, and a company has to produce revenue, it is also made up of real people who work hard and take pride in the work they do.

It should be apparent to everyone that DDO is just one asset among many for Juggle. While DDO is a part of Juggle's business, and it being a productive asset is beneficial to the company, this does not mean that it is the sole motivation of those Juggle employees who work on the site.

I've been lucky enough to have a relationship with several of those people, and I can say from knowing them, that like anyone who spends their time doing anything, there is a personal motivation that goes well beyond profit incentive. To point to the "entity of Juggle" and say it's motivated by profit (and this wouldn't be false), is to ignore the real people who very much want to see the site succeed, to see every member possible get the most out of it and to see those members enjoy it to the fullest extent possible. Sometimes these things conflict and there's no way to make everyone happy always, but those working on the site have the same types of goals as anyone working on anything; to see their work succeed and be appreciated.

I know from talking to members of Juggle's staff that this, above anything else, is their motivation. They understand that a business has to do what it has to do, but they very much want the site to be enjoyed by everyone, and they are passionate and motivated in the long-term to see it be as successful and enjoyable as possible.

DDO is a constant work in progress and it's not always going to be perfect, but I'm thankful that it has passionate staff who really do want to see it be the best site possible. While what makes it enjoyable might not be the same thing for everyone, all it takes is a quick conversation with any Juggle staffer working on DDO, to see how genuine their motivations for the site really are.

Ah, the fine art of PR.

I don't get anything out of doing PR, so that wasn't my intent.

It's easy to criticize people when you view them as some faceless group. When you know them personally, those criticisms mean a lot more. Members should feel free to state their disagreements with the site direction, and certainly feel encouraged to express what they would like it to be and how it should be changed, but the work that goes into the site isn't done by a faceless entity, it's done by real people who care about what they are doing.

This may only matter to me, but I wanted it to be said.
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bladerunner060
Posts: 7,126
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3/19/2014 2:03:54 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/19/2014 1:54:52 AM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 3/19/2014 1:43:38 AM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
At 3/19/2014 12:27:35 AM, airmax1227 wrote:
In all the discussion about the site lately I think there is an important thing ignored by many members. While Juggle is a company, and a company has to produce revenue, it is also made up of real people who work hard and take pride in the work they do.

It should be apparent to everyone that DDO is just one asset among many for Juggle. While DDO is a part of Juggle's business, and it being a productive asset is beneficial to the company, this does not mean that it is the sole motivation of those Juggle employees who work on the site.

I've been lucky enough to have a relationship with several of those people, and I can say from knowing them, that like anyone who spends their time doing anything, there is a personal motivation that goes well beyond profit incentive. To point to the "entity of Juggle" and say it's motivated by profit (and this wouldn't be false), is to ignore the real people who very much want to see the site succeed, to see every member possible get the most out of it and to see those members enjoy it to the fullest extent possible. Sometimes these things conflict and there's no way to make everyone happy always, but those working on the site have the same types of goals as anyone working on anything; to see their work succeed and be appreciated.

I know from talking to members of Juggle's staff that this, above anything else, is their motivation. They understand that a business has to do what it has to do, but they very much want the site to be enjoyed by everyone, and they are passionate and motivated in the long-term to see it be as successful and enjoyable as possible.

DDO is a constant work in progress and it's not always going to be perfect, but I'm thankful that it has passionate staff who really do want to see it be the best site possible. While what makes it enjoyable might not be the same thing for everyone, all it takes is a quick conversation with any Juggle staffer working on DDO, to see how genuine their motivations for the site really are.

Ah, the fine art of PR.

I don't get anything out of doing PR, so that wasn't my intent.

It's easy to criticize people when you view them as some faceless group. When you know them personally, those criticisms mean a lot more. Members should feel free to state their disagreements with the site direction, and certainly feel encouraged to express what they would like it to be and how it should be changed, but the work that goes into the site isn't done by a faceless entity, it's done by real people who care about what they are doing.

This may only matter to me, but I wanted it to be said.

Dang it airmax, if we start treating those with whom we have some measure of disagreement with as people, what's next?! Talking to them like people? Collaborating to move forward and solve problems? Madness!
Assistant moderator to airmax1227. PM me with any questions or concerns!
Eitan_Zohar
Posts: 2,697
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3/19/2014 2:12:08 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/19/2014 1:54:52 AM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 3/19/2014 1:43:38 AM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
Ah, the fine art of PR.

I don't get anything out of doing PR, so that wasn't my intent.

It's easy to criticize people when you view them as some faceless group. When you know them personally, those criticisms mean a lot more. Members should feel free to state their disagreements with the site direction, and certainly feel encouraged to express what they would like it to be and how it should be changed, but the work that goes into the site isn't done by a faceless entity, it's done by real people who care about what they are doing.

This may only matter to me, but I wanted it to be said.

Sure: get rid of fvcking advertisements. Move debates to the front burner. Get rid of opinions and polls. Make the forums workable for the first time ever.

I'd like these people who care about what they are doing to explain why these shouldn't/can't happen. And if the justifications require bringing up finances or that they have less resources to pool toward DDO than I actually am talking to a faceless corporation.

Any questions?
"It is my ambition to say in ten sentences what others say in a whole book."
Eitan_Zohar
Posts: 2,697
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3/19/2014 2:14:07 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
And you talk like you're writing up a legal disclaimer. Say something that suggests you have an opinion once in a while and you might be convincing.
"It is my ambition to say in ten sentences what others say in a whole book."
airmax1227
Posts: 13,244
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3/19/2014 2:30:48 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/19/2014 2:12:08 AM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
At 3/19/2014 1:54:52 AM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 3/19/2014 1:43:38 AM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
Ah, the fine art of PR.

I don't get anything out of doing PR, so that wasn't my intent.

It's easy to criticize people when you view them as some faceless group. When you know them personally, those criticisms mean a lot more. Members should feel free to state their disagreements with the site direction, and certainly feel encouraged to express what they would like it to be and how it should be changed, but the work that goes into the site isn't done by a faceless entity, it's done by real people who care about what they are doing.

This may only matter to me, but I wanted it to be said.

Sure: get rid of fvcking advertisements.

I haven't seen any advertisements of this type on the site. I apologize if your ads are too explicit.

Move debates to the front burner. Get rid of opinions and polls. Make the forums workable for the first time ever.

I appreciate your feedback, though the opinions and polls sections make up a large percentage of the sites traffic. It's also a portion of the site that many members enjoy. If you don't, that's understandable, but the site is designed for a diversity of member activity.

As for the forums, there are certainly ways we can improve them, though I wasn't aware that they didn't work. In the future, and in the appropriate place, feel free to offer feedback for how we can improve them.

I'd like these people who care about what they are doing to explain why these shouldn't/can't happen.

Updates and improvements take time. If they are reasonable, it's likely just a matter of time until they do happen.

And if the justifications require bringing up finances or that they have less resources to pool toward DDO than I actually am talking to a faceless corporation.

There's no need to justify why reasonable suggestions can't happen, because if they are reasonable, they often will. It just takes time.
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bluesteel
Posts: 12,301
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3/19/2014 3:40:56 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
@Max

You're invoking the same reason that people never vote bad members of Congress out of office - because they know the representative from their district personally, so they don't blame them for all the failings of the big amorphous blob that is "Congress." So even though Congress has an approval rating of 7%, no one gets voted out of office. Because candidates know their chance of losing as an incumbent is near-zero, they feel no obligation to be more accountable to voters.

I do respect all the work that people at Juggle are doing. I'm sure there are many people at Juggle who care about the site. There were also some people at Enron and Goldman that thought they were really performing an important service for the public. But ultimately, I care more about what the corporation as a whole chooses to do. If Juggle never prioritizes the site, we will never get all those wonderful staff members to help us.
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)
Eitan_Zohar
Posts: 2,697
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3/19/2014 3:41:29 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/19/2014 2:30:48 AM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 3/19/2014 2:12:08 AM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
At 3/19/2014 1:54:52 AM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 3/19/2014 1:43:38 AM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
Ah, the fine art of PR.

I don't get anything out of doing PR, so that wasn't my intent.

It's easy to criticize people when you view them as some faceless group. When you know them personally, those criticisms mean a lot more. Members should feel free to state their disagreements with the site direction, and certainly feel encouraged to express what they would like it to be and how it should be changed, but the work that goes into the site isn't done by a faceless entity, it's done by real people who care about what they are doing.

This may only matter to me, but I wanted it to be said.

Sure: get rid of fvcking advertisements.

I haven't seen any advertisements of this type on the site. I apologize if your ads are too explicit.

Two years ago people would have left en masse.

Move debates to the front burner. Get rid of opinions and polls. Make the forums workable for the first time ever.

I appreciate your feedback, though the opinions and polls sections make up a large percentage of the sites traffic. It's also a portion of the site that many members enjoy. If you don't, that's understandable, but the site is designed for a diversity of member activity.

Meaning screw intellectuals and serious debaters, we need moar views.

As for the forums, there are certainly ways we can improve them, though I wasn't aware that they didn't work. In the future, and in the appropriate place, feel free to offer feedback for how we can improve them.

They've already made clear that they won't.

I'd like these people who care about what they are doing to explain why these shouldn't/can't happen.

Updates and improvements take time. If they are reasonable, it's likely just a matter of time until they do happen.

'Reasonable.' Yessir, that's how you define your obligations.

And if the justifications require bringing up finances or that they have less resources to pool toward DDO than I actually am talking to a faceless corporation.

There's no need to justify why reasonable suggestions can't happen, because if they are reasonable, they often will. It just takes time.

How about a clear definition of reasonable?
"It is my ambition to say in ten sentences what others say in a whole book."
NiqashMotawadi3
Posts: 1,895
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3/19/2014 8:40:41 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/18/2014 11:27:33 PM, YYW wrote:
Juggle is a big company. It's got about about a low eight figure annual revenue, and it does a lot of neat things:

http://www.juggle.com...

DDO is but one small fraction of what they're up to.

I think this might be useful for people to be aware of...

I'm aware of this, and I checked those websites, and really, all of them suck instead of DDO. The write.org page looked promising but it is inactive as hell.
Jifpop09
Posts: 2,243
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3/19/2014 8:54:34 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/18/2014 11:27:33 PM, YYW wrote:
Juggle is a big company. It's got about about a low eight figure annual revenue, and it does a lot of neat things:

http://www.juggle.com...

DDO is but one small fraction of what they're up to.

I think this might be useful for people to be aware of...

All this time I thought Juggle was a specific person who owned the site
Leader of the DDO Revolution Party
NiqashMotawadi3
Posts: 1,895
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3/19/2014 9:00:53 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/19/2014 8:54:34 AM, Jifpop09 wrote:
At 3/18/2014 11:27:33 PM, YYW wrote:
Juggle is a big company. It's got about about a low eight figure annual revenue, and it does a lot of neat things:

http://www.juggle.com...

DDO is but one small fraction of what they're up to.

I think this might be useful for people to be aware of...

All this time I thought Juggle was a specific person who owned the site

That would be Nate Simmons.
Cermank
Posts: 3,773
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3/19/2014 9:23:38 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/19/2014 2:30:48 AM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 3/19/2014 2:12:08 AM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:

Sure: get rid of fvcking advertisements.

I haven't seen any advertisements of this type on the site. I apologize if your ads are too explicit.

I choked on my coffee.
YYW
Posts: 36,357
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3/19/2014 11:42:19 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/19/2014 9:23:38 AM, Cermank wrote:
At 3/19/2014 2:30:48 AM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 3/19/2014 2:12:08 AM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:

Sure: get rid of fvcking advertisements.

I haven't seen any advertisements of this type on the site. I apologize if your ads are too explicit.

I choked on my coffee.

Use an ad blocker.
Tsar of DDO
Cermank
Posts: 3,773
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3/19/2014 11:48:07 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/19/2014 11:42:19 AM, YYW wrote:
At 3/19/2014 9:23:38 AM, Cermank wrote:
At 3/19/2014 2:30:48 AM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 3/19/2014 2:12:08 AM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:

Sure: get rid of fvcking advertisements.

I haven't seen any advertisements of this type on the site. I apologize if your ads are too explicit.

I choked on my coffee.

Use an ad blocker.

Lol, I meant I found airmax's response hilarious. I don't get too many bad ads, just some election related campaigns.
airmax1227
Posts: 13,244
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3/19/2014 4:02:20 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/19/2014 3:40:56 AM, bluesteel wrote:
@Max

You're invoking the same reason that people never vote bad members of Congress out of office - because they know the representative from their district personally, so they don't blame them for all the failings of the big amorphous blob that is "Congress." So even though Congress has an approval rating of 7%, no one gets voted out of office. Because candidates know their chance of losing as an incumbent is near-zero, they feel no obligation to be more accountable to voters.


I think that's fair, though I'm not sure it's entirely comparable. Juggle staff is held accountable, but by more than just those who have opined in the manner I have described. I'm also not sure the metric we (the vocal membership) use for success is an appropriate one since it only takes into account the feelings of an incredibly small portion of the site. That's not to say our opinions don't matter or that Juggle shouldn't listen to us (and I know they do) but that there are more factors than just the opinions recently expressed in the forums.

I do respect all the work that people at Juggle are doing. I'm sure there are many people at Juggle who care about the site. There were also some people at Enron and Goldman that thought they were really performing an important service for the public. But ultimately, I care more about what the corporation as a whole chooses to do. If Juggle never prioritizes the site, we will never get all those wonderful staff members to help us.

Again, I think that's fair and my reason for posting was simply to express my personal feelings (and in no other capacity) on the way members were expressing themselves and what they feel are Juggle's motivations. Juggle has prioritized the site in the past and when they can again, they will again. The recent tone expressing that the site is somehow doomed because Juggle doesn't care, or is only motivated by profit, is what I was addressing because it is something that I personally disagree with. That isn't to say that I don't agree with specific issues members have brought up, only that the above isn't true of Juggle as a company, and it isn't true when it comes to individual members of Juggle's staff.
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bluesteel
Posts: 12,301
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3/19/2014 4:29:50 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/19/2014 4:02:20 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 3/19/2014 3:40:56 AM, bluesteel wrote:


I do respect all the work that people at Juggle are doing. I'm sure there are many people at Juggle who care about the site. There were also some people at Enron and Goldman that thought they were really performing an important service for the public. But ultimately, I care more about what the corporation as a whole chooses to do. If Juggle never prioritizes the site, we will never get all those wonderful staff members to help us.

Again, I think that's fair and my reason for posting was simply to express my personal feelings (and in no other capacity) on the way members were expressing themselves and what they feel are Juggle's motivations. Juggle has prioritized the site in the past and when they can again, they will again. The recent tone expressing that the site is somehow doomed because Juggle doesn't care, or is only motivated by profit, is what I was addressing because it is something that I personally disagree with. That isn't to say that I don't agree with specific issues members have brought up, only that the above isn't true of Juggle as a company, and it isn't true when it comes to individual members of Juggle's staff.

I do appreciate your perspective. It's nice to hear from someone who has worked closely with Juggle what your perception is.

You're invoking the same reason that people never vote bad members of Congress out of office - because they know the representative from their district personally, so they don't blame them for all the failings of the big amorphous blob that is "Congress." So even though Congress has an approval rating of 7%, no one gets voted out of office. Because candidates know their chance of losing as an incumbent is near-zero, they feel no obligation to be more accountable to voters.


I think that's fair, though I'm not sure it's entirely comparable. Juggle staff is held accountable, but by more than just those who have opined in the manner I have described. I'm also not sure the metric we (the vocal membership) use for success is an appropriate one since it only takes into account the feelings of an incredibly small portion of the site. That's not to say our opinions don't matter or that Juggle shouldn't listen to us (and I know they do) but that there are more factors than just the opinions recently expressed in the forums.

I think that's the problem people have - Juggle now sees this site as 90% of users who exclusively use polls and opinions and don't spend much time on the site, 10% people who only debate and spend lots of time on the site. They say to our faces that the 90% will eventually become the 10% who take the site very seriously, but I don't think either of us [the users or Juggle] believe that's true. And I think it irks people because most social networking sites try to cater to their "super-users" more than to people who are transient users and rarely use the site.

You can see this in their response to TUF: we don't care what you and your friends think about features that you test away from the site - we want to make sure the transient users like them too before implementing. At least for me, I still see the site as "the DDO community" [people who care about debating] and the "Juggle community" [the trash users who will never do any debating on the site, but have been ported over to DDO from Juggle.com]. I remember when Juggle first bought the site, I looked at their site and was shocked that they claimed they bought DDO because "this site is similar to ours." Their site was a collection of what is now the opinion section - trashy debates where people just assert their opinions to be true. I was a bit worried by this at the time, but they pushed a bunch of updates when they first bought the site, so I let that go. But seemed my initial positive judgment of them was premature.
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)
airmax1227
Posts: 13,244
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3/19/2014 4:32:35 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/19/2014 3:41:29 AM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
At 3/19/2014 2:30:48 AM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 3/19/2014 2:12:08 AM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
At 3/19/2014 1:54:52 AM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 3/19/2014 1:43:38 AM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
Ah, the fine art of PR.

I don't get anything out of doing PR, so that wasn't my intent.

It's easy to criticize people when you view them as some faceless group. When you know them personally, those criticisms mean a lot more. Members should feel free to state their disagreements with the site direction, and certainly feel encouraged to express what they would like it to be and how it should be changed, but the work that goes into the site isn't done by a faceless entity, it's done by real people who care about what they are doing.

This may only matter to me, but I wanted it to be said.

Sure: get rid of fvcking advertisements.

I haven't seen any advertisements of this type on the site. I apologize if your ads are too explicit.

Two years ago people would have left en masse.

Why isn't that the case today?

Either way, I disagree. While DDO has grown and has an increasingly larger casual membership, there are many long-term members who remain enthusiastic fans of the site, regardless of the issues it faces. But to be clear, members should continue to express how they feel and continue to offer their views on how the site can improve. There's always some way to make it better, and members should enthusiastically share those thoughts in a productive way.

Move debates to the front burner. Get rid of opinions and polls. Make the forums workable for the first time ever.

I appreciate your feedback, though the opinions and polls sections make up a large percentage of the sites traffic. It's also a portion of the site that many members enjoy. If you don't, that's understandable, but the site is designed for a diversity of member activity.

Meaning screw intellectuals and serious debaters, we need moar views.

That's not what it means, and that's not what I said. It means that the site can accommodate a variety of members with different interests, and the casual users happen to also make up a large amount of the membership.

As for the forums, there are certainly ways we can improve them, though I wasn't aware that they didn't work. In the future, and in the appropriate place, feel free to offer feedback for how we can improve them.

They've already made clear that they won't.

You must be speaking to a different Juggle than I am.

I'd like these people who care about what they are doing to explain why these shouldn't/can't happen.

Updates and improvements take time. If they are reasonable, it's likely just a matter of time until they do happen.

'Reasonable.' Yessir, that's how you define your obligations.

What are my obligations?

I think that being realistic about what can be done to improve your experience on the site isn't unreasonable. If you want the site to cater specifically to you, then you might be disappointed. It can however offer something different and enjoyable to everyone. Those who enjoy the polls and opinions sections, may not be those who want to commit to doing a more in-depth debate. Those who enjoy the forums exclusively, may not be those who want to debate, and those who want to do formal debates may find the format of the poll/opinions to not be to their liking.

If the diversity of options ultimately makes the entirety of the site not enjoyable to you, then I think your expectations are unrealistic.

I think it is a reasonable request that we improve the areas of the site that you find enjoyable, but not at the expense of the areas that others find enjoyable. We can certainly explore ways to improve the forums and the debates to mitigate some of the problems caused by the casual users, but it's not reasonable to expect the removal entirely of those sections that attract those users.

And if the justifications require bringing up finances or that they have less resources to pool toward DDO than I actually am talking to a faceless corporation.

There's no need to justify why reasonable suggestions can't happen, because if they are reasonable, they often will. It just takes time.

How about a clear definition of reasonable?

adjective: reasonable

1. having sound judgment; fair and sensible.
2. as much as is appropriate or fair; moderate.
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airmax1227
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3/19/2014 4:53:19 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/19/2014 4:29:50 PM, bluesteel wrote:
At 3/19/2014 4:02:20 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 3/19/2014 3:40:56 AM, bluesteel wrote:


I do respect all the work that people at Juggle are doing. I'm sure there are many people at Juggle who care about the site. There were also some people at Enron and Goldman that thought they were really performing an important service for the public. But ultimately, I care more about what the corporation as a whole chooses to do. If Juggle never prioritizes the site, we will never get all those wonderful staff members to help us.

Again, I think that's fair and my reason for posting was simply to express my personal feelings (and in no other capacity) on the way members were expressing themselves and what they feel are Juggle's motivations. Juggle has prioritized the site in the past and when they can again, they will again. The recent tone expressing that the site is somehow doomed because Juggle doesn't care, or is only motivated by profit, is what I was addressing because it is something that I personally disagree with. That isn't to say that I don't agree with specific issues members have brought up, only that the above isn't true of Juggle as a company, and it isn't true when it comes to individual members of Juggle's staff.

I do appreciate your perspective. It's nice to hear from someone who has worked closely with Juggle what your perception is.

You're invoking the same reason that people never vote bad members of Congress out of office - because they know the representative from their district personally, so they don't blame them for all the failings of the big amorphous blob that is "Congress." So even though Congress has an approval rating of 7%, no one gets voted out of office. Because candidates know their chance of losing as an incumbent is near-zero, they feel no obligation to be more accountable to voters.


I think that's fair, though I'm not sure it's entirely comparable. Juggle staff is held accountable, but by more than just those who have opined in the manner I have described. I'm also not sure the metric we (the vocal membership) use for success is an appropriate one since it only takes into account the feelings of an incredibly small portion of the site. That's not to say our opinions don't matter or that Juggle shouldn't listen to us (and I know they do) but that there are more factors than just the opinions recently expressed in the forums.

I think that's the problem people have - Juggle now sees this site as 90% of users who exclusively use polls and opinions and don't spend much time on the site, 10% people who only debate and spend lots of time on the site. They say to our faces that the 90% will eventually become the 10% who take the site very seriously, but I don't think either of us [the users or Juggle] believe that's true. And I think it irks people because most social networking sites try to cater to their "super-users" more than to people who are transient users and rarely use the site.

You can see this in their response to TUF: we don't care what you and your friends think about features that you test away from the site - we want to make sure the transient users like them too before implementing. At least for me, I still see the site as "the DDO community" [people who care about debating] and the "Juggle community" [the trash users who will never do any debating on the site, but have been ported over to DDO from Juggle.com]. I remember when Juggle first bought the site, I looked at their site and was shocked that they claimed they bought DDO because "this site is similar to ours." Their site was a collection of what is now the opinion section - trashy debates where people just assert their opinions to be true. I was a bit worried by this at the time, but they pushed a bunch of updates when they first bought the site, so I let that go. But seemed my initial positive judgment of them was premature.

I've understood this for a long time and I certainly share your concerns. The key is mitigating the effects of the casual users where it has a negative effect on the features of the site used by the more committed members. I know that Juggle is aware of this, and if it were a simple fix it would have happened already. The goal here needs to be focusing on how to improve those areas and implement elements to minimize the negative effects of those issues. There are some simple things already suggested with regards to things like forfeited debates but there are a lot of ways in which we need to come up with solutions so that the long-term users and the casual users can coexist without harming the site experience for either group.

I think we can have a casual group who prefers to use the opinions and polls, and I think we can have a group that wants to do more in-depth and serious debates exclusively. The problems arise when the interests of an individual or group of individuals comes at the expense of the ability for others to enjoy the site. I believe that there are solutions to this though and I do believe it's just a matter of time until we are able to implement them and improve the site experience for everyone.

As always, I'm happy to work on ideas to this end with anyone who would like to.
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airmax1227
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3/19/2014 5:00:26 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/19/2014 11:48:07 AM, Cermank wrote:
At 3/19/2014 11:42:19 AM, YYW wrote:
At 3/19/2014 9:23:38 AM, Cermank wrote:
At 3/19/2014 2:30:48 AM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 3/19/2014 2:12:08 AM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:

Sure: get rid of fvcking advertisements.

I haven't seen any advertisements of this type on the site. I apologize if your ads are too explicit.

I choked on my coffee.

Use an ad blocker.

Lol, I meant I found airmax's response hilarious. I don't get too many bad ads, just some election related campaigns.

I try not to be sarcastic too often, and when I am, I'm often too subtle, but I thought it was appropriate in this case and I'm happy someone caught on. I hope I didn't hurt you though.
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bluesteel
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3/19/2014 5:20:22 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I think we can have a casual group who prefers to use the opinions and polls, and I think we can have a group that wants to do more in-depth and serious debates exclusively.

These should be two websites, as they once were. There's no reason to have them on the same site since there's so little cross over. Is that not the simplest solution - port half the code over to a different domain? Anything else requires a lot of moderation to keep the trash away from the debate part of the site.

On Facebook, there are casual users and people who use it a lot. The casual users still interact with heavy users. It is the same core experience.

On Twitter, some people follow 1000 celebrities and some people barely use it. But it's still the same core functionality.

On Reddit, some people lurk a lot and some people post often. But it's still the same core experience. It's all one group of users.

This site has two distinct sets of users, which means it should be two separate sites.

The reason I keep saying that the DDO community should leave is because that's the easiest solution. This needs to be two sites. One of the groups of users should leave. Juggle tried combining trashy opinion debates from Juggle.com with the more substantive debates from DDO. It didn't work. Neither group of users likes the feature set designed for the other group of users and does not like interacting with the other group of users. There is no middle ground solution. This is obvious.

The opinion section makes just as much sense tacked onto their Writer site or their Crowdsourcing site, i.e. it doesn't belong on any of them. Nor does it belong here.
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)
Eitan_Zohar
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3/20/2014 9:30:55 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/19/2014 4:32:35 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 3/19/2014 3:41:29 AM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
At 3/19/2014 2:30:48 AM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 3/19/2014 2:12:08 AM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
At 3/19/2014 1:54:52 AM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 3/19/2014 1:43:38 AM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
Ah, the fine art of PR.

I don't get anything out of doing PR, so that wasn't my intent.

It's easy to criticize people when you view them as some faceless group. When you know them personally, those criticisms mean a lot more. Members should feel free to state their disagreements with the site direction, and certainly feel encouraged to express what they would like it to be and how it should be changed, but the work that goes into the site isn't done by a faceless entity, it's done by real people who care about what they are doing.

This may only matter to me, but I wanted it to be said.

Sure: get rid of fvcking advertisements.

I haven't seen any advertisements of this type on the site. I apologize if your ads are too explicit.

Two years ago people would have left en masse.

Why isn't that the case today?

Either way, I disagree. While DDO has grown and has an increasingly larger casual membership, there are many long-term members who remain enthusiastic fans of the site, regardless of the issues it faces. But to be clear, members should continue to express how they feel and continue to offer their views on how the site can improve. There's always some way to make it better, and members should enthusiastically share those thoughts in a productive way.

Move debates to the front burner. Get rid of opinions and polls. Make the forums workable for the first time ever.

I appreciate your feedback, though the opinions and polls sections make up a large percentage of the sites traffic. It's also a portion of the site that many members enjoy. If you don't, that's understandable, but the site is designed for a diversity of member activity.

Meaning screw intellectuals and serious debaters, we need moar views.

That's not what it means, and that's not what I said. It means that the site can accommodate a variety of members with different interests, and the casual users happen to also make up a large amount of the membership.

As for the forums, there are certainly ways we can improve them, though I wasn't aware that they didn't work. In the future, and in the appropriate place, feel free to offer feedback for how we can improve them.

They've already made clear that they won't.

You must be speaking to a different Juggle than I am.

I'd like these people who care about what they are doing to explain why these shouldn't/can't happen.

Updates and improvements take time. If they are reasonable, it's likely just a matter of time until they do happen.

'Reasonable.' Yessir, that's how you define your obligations.

What are my obligations?

I think that being realistic about what can be done to improve your experience on the site isn't unreasonable. If you want the site to cater specifically to you, then you might be disappointed. It can however offer something different and enjoyable to everyone. Those who enjoy the polls and opinions sections, may not be those who want to commit to doing a more in-depth debate. Those who enjoy the forums exclusively, may not be those who want to debate, and those who want to do formal debates may find the format of the poll/opinions to not be to their liking.

If the diversity of options ultimately makes the entirety of the site not enjoyable to you, then I think your expectations are unrealistic.

I think it is a reasonable request that we improve the areas of the site that you find enjoyable, but not at the expense of the areas that others find enjoyable. We can certainly explore ways to improve the forums and the debates to mitigate some of the problems caused by the casual users, but it's not reasonable to expect the removal entirely of those sections that attract those users.

And if the justifications require bringing up finances or that they have less resources to pool toward DDO than I actually am talking to a faceless corporation.

There's no need to justify why reasonable suggestions can't happen, because if they are reasonable, they often will. It just takes time.

How about a clear definition of reasonable?

adjective: reasonable

1. having sound judgment; fair and sensible.
2. as much as is appropriate or fair; moderate.

Name three actions/policies of Juggle which you categorically disagree with.
"It is my ambition to say in ten sentences what others say in a whole book."