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On Online Civility

YYW
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3/26/2014 6:17:50 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
It is no secret that this is a site where many people with strong opinions and varying levels of ability to articulate them exchange ideas in ways that can be more or less uncivil. That is the norm on this site, and it's ok because only if people know that they can express their ideas without fear of members hurt feelings having a chilling effect on site discourse. Since it might not be clear prima facia what I'm talking about, here's a scenario to explain that point:

Member 1: X
Member 2: Your view is incoherent because you failed to account for Y.
Member 1: How dare you say I failed to account for something! I'm offended!
Member 2: You're a fvcking idiot, dude.
Member 1: Ad hom! Ad hom! Ad hom! How dare you be so uncivil to me! Ima report you to the mods!
Member 3: Both of you shut up, you're failing to be civil with one another!

I know that's ridiculous, and you probably do too, unless you're the first member. There are some members who are almost always invariably in the first member's position, and others of us who more regularly act to varying degrees like the second member. Then, the third member will interject him or herself into the situation and everyone's unhappy.

The issue, however, is not a lack of civility. The issue is Member 1's feeling persecuted because someone else pointed out something that he missed, and then acting as if he has been wronged by member 2 as a result of member 2's disagreement. On a very basic level, the people who act like Member 1 are what's wrong with this site.

Why? Member 1's metric of "offensiveness" is disagreement, such that whenever anyone does anything that runs contrary to what member 1 thinks, member 1 is going to internalize that as a personal slight. It may very well be that member 2 did call member 1 a name or insult him in some way -but that doesn't change the fact that, to use Imabench's word, if a person can't engage in adversarial conversation without being "butthurt," then DDO is not the place for them.

Discussing the importance of online civility, then, misses the mark because the source of the conflict was member 1's sensitivity to others disagreeing with him, not member 2's being an @sshole, whether member 2 was an @sshole or not. Placing the emphasis on online civility, then, is stupid and counterproductive because the practical impact of emphasizing civility is to impose a de facto moratorium on disagreement, if whenever member 1 is disagreed with, member 1 is going to feel maligned. Catering to the Member 1's isn't something we ought to be doing anyway, but emphasizing "civility" does precisely that, and so at the expense of free and open discourse.

It is similarly usually the case that only those whose behavior fits the "member 1" pattern are the ones who stress civility. So, when a "member 1" type person starts talking about how online civility is really important, what they mean is "if you disagree with anything I say, I'm going to be offended and b!tch about it." Then, the member 3's of this site will jump in and call Member 2's bullies, and the behaviorally normative impact is that discourse, still yet, is the opportunity cost of member 1's not being able to engage in conversations with those who disagree with his perspective.

So, we've got to move beyond delineating acceptable and unacceptable conduct on the basis of civility. If people are offended by disagreement, that's their fvcking problem. If people don't like keeping the company of those who do not share their point of view, then they can fvck the hell off. If people value civility, where civility means agreement, then all those people should go somewhere that all others agree with them. Perhaps a nice padded room. Not a chance for one's ego to get bruised up there...
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AnDoctuir
Posts: 11,060
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3/26/2014 6:21:18 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
You are a dumb whore for consideration. Your life has no meaning but to suck d*ck to get ahead. How does it feel?
YYW
Posts: 36,391
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3/26/2014 6:25:30 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/26/2014 6:21:18 PM, AnDoctuir wrote:
You are a dumb whore for consideration. Your life has no meaning but to suck d*ck to get ahead. How does it feel?

You really must be desperate to get laid, dude. You should just go to a prostitute... I'm sure they have those in your part of the world.
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imabench
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3/26/2014 6:28:13 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/26/2014 6:21:18 PM, AnDoctuir wrote:
You are a dumb whore for consideration. Your life has no meaning but to suck d*ck to get ahead. How does it feel?

you shouldnt talk to yourself like that.
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YYW
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3/26/2014 6:29:01 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/26/2014 6:28:13 PM, imabench wrote:
At 3/26/2014 6:21:18 PM, AnDoctuir wrote:
You are a dumb whore for consideration. Your life has no meaning but to suck d*ck to get ahead. How does it feel?

you shouldnt talk to yourself like that.

Rather than giving him fap material, you should weigh in on my OP.
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AnDoctuir
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3/26/2014 6:29:34 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/26/2014 6:25:30 PM, YYW wrote:
At 3/26/2014 6:21:18 PM, AnDoctuir wrote:
You are a dumb whore for consideration. Your life has no meaning but to suck d*ck to get ahead. How does it feel?

You really must be desperate to get laid, dude. You should just go to a prostitute... I'm sure they have those in your part of the world.

Oh that was very intelligent, good job. Seriously though, these posts are the most pathetic of all... when you think you've found some unconsidered intelligence and milk it with verbose retardation. Being intelligent isn't for everyone dude.
dtaylor971
Posts: 1,907
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3/26/2014 6:29:59 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/26/2014 6:17:50 PM, YYW wrote:
It is no secret that this is a site where many people with strong opinions and varying levels of ability to articulate them exchange ideas in ways that can be more or less uncivil. That is the norm on this site, and it's ok because only if people know that they can express their ideas without fear of members hurt feelings having a chilling effect on site discourse. Since it might not be clear prima facia what I'm talking about, here's a scenario to explain that point:

Member 1: X
Member 2: Your view is incoherent because you failed to account for Y.
Member 1: How dare you say I failed to account for something! I'm offended!
Member 2: You're a fvcking idiot, dude.
Member 1: Ad hom! Ad hom! Ad hom! How dare you be so uncivil to me! Ima report you to the mods!
Member 3: Both of you shut up, you're failing to be civil with one another!

Member 1: God exists because there is no other way of creating the universe.
Member 2: Your view is incoherent because you failed to account for the big bang theory, evolution, or any given theory at all that could've started the universe.
Member 1: Dude, you don't get to say I failed to account for something. I'm offended, you d!ck!
Member 2: Oh go fvck yourself.
Member 1: That's against the rules! I'm reporting you to the moderator!
Airmax: SHUT UP OR IMMA GO CHUCK NORRIS ON YOU AND BAN YO AZZES!
Members 1 and 2: Yes, sir.


I know that's ridiculous, and you probably do too, unless you're the first member. There are some members who are almost always invariably in the first member's position, and others of us who more regularly act to varying degrees like the second member. Then, the third member will interject him or herself into the situation and everyone's unhappy.

The issue, however, is not a lack of civility. The issue is Member 1's feeling persecuted because someone else pointed out something that he missed, and then acting as if he has been wronged by member 2 as a result of member 2's disagreement. On a very basic level, the people who act like Member 1 are what's wrong with this site.

Why? Member 1's metric of "offensiveness" is disagreement, such that whenever anyone does anything that runs contrary to what member 1 thinks, member 1 is going to internalize that as a personal slight. It may very well be that member 2 did call member 1 a name or insult him in some way -but that doesn't change the fact that, to use Imabench's word, if a person can't engage in adversarial conversation without being "butthurt," then DDO is not the place for them.

Discussing the importance of online civility, then, misses the mark because the source of the conflict was member 1's sensitivity to others disagreeing with him, not member 2's being an @sshole, whether member 2 was an @sshole or not. Placing the emphasis on online civility, then, is stupid and counterproductive because the practical impact of emphasizing civility is to impose a de facto moratorium on disagreement, if whenever member 1 is disagreed with, member 1 is going to feel maligned. Catering to the Member 1's isn't something we ought to be doing anyway, but emphasizing "civility" does precisely that, and so at the expense of free and open discourse.

It is similarly usually the case that only those whose behavior fits the "member 1" pattern are the ones who stress civility. So, when a "member 1" type person starts talking about how online civility is really important, what they mean is "if you disagree with anything I say, I'm going to be offended and b!tch about it." Then, the member 3's of this site will jump in and call Member 2's bullies, and the behaviorally normative impact is that discourse, still yet, is the opportunity cost of member 1's not being able to engage in conversations with those who disagree with his perspective.

So, we've got to move beyond delineating acceptable and unacceptable conduct on the basis of civility. If people are offended by disagreement, that's their fvcking problem. If people don't like keeping the company of those who do not share their point of view, then they can fvck the hell off. If people value civility, where civility means agreement, then all those people should go somewhere that all others agree with them. Perhaps a nice padded room. Not a chance for one's ego to get bruised up there...
"I don't know why gays want to marry, I have spent the last 25 years wishing I wasn't allowed to." -Sadolite
YYW
Posts: 36,391
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3/26/2014 6:33:23 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/26/2014 6:29:34 PM, AnDoctuir wrote:
At 3/26/2014 6:25:30 PM, YYW wrote:
At 3/26/2014 6:21:18 PM, AnDoctuir wrote:
You are a dumb whore for consideration. Your life has no meaning but to suck d*ck to get ahead. How does it feel?

You really must be desperate to get laid, dude. You should just go to a prostitute... I'm sure they have those in your part of the world.

Oh that was very intelligent, good job. Seriously though, these posts are the most pathetic of all... when you think you've found some unconsidered intelligence and milk it with verbose retardation. Being intelligent isn't for everyone dude.

I'll bet you have a chronic case of really bad hemorrhoids....
Tsar of DDO
YYW
Posts: 36,391
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3/26/2014 6:33:54 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/26/2014 6:32:44 PM, AnDoctuir wrote:
I mean you can't not see what you're doing here, lol. Seriously... how does it feel?

They have medicine for that, you know.
Tsar of DDO
Linkish1O2
Posts: 2,003
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3/26/2014 6:39:12 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/26/2014 6:33:54 PM, YYW wrote:
At 3/26/2014 6:32:44 PM, AnDoctuir wrote:
I mean you can't not see what you're doing here, lol. Seriously... how does it feel?

They have medicine for that, you know.

Oh oh, are you selling, I want some.
"I am a mystery and to unlock the mystery at my core, one must simply embrace slendermans hug with no fear."- me

"I hearby declare myself a phantom in the darkness."-me
SPENCERJOYAGE14
Posts: 1,040
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3/26/2014 6:39:47 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Member 1: God exists because there is no other way of creating the universe.
Member 2: Your view is incoherent because you failed to account for the big bang theory, evolution, or any given theory at all that could've started the universe.
Member 1: Dude, you don't get to say I failed to account for something. I'm offended, you d!ck!
Member 2: Oh go fvck yourself.
Member 1: That's against the rules! I'm reporting you to the moderator!
Airmax: SHUT UP OR IMMA GO CHUCK NORRIS ON YOU AND BAN YO AZZES!
Members 1 and 2: Yes, sir. Sorry sir.
I'm so fancy, you already know.
YYW
Posts: 36,391
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3/26/2014 6:47:13 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/26/2014 6:39:12 PM, Linkish1O2 wrote:
At 3/26/2014 6:33:54 PM, YYW wrote:
At 3/26/2014 6:32:44 PM, AnDoctuir wrote:
I mean you can't not see what you're doing here, lol. Seriously... how does it feel?

They have medicine for that, you know.

Oh oh, are you selling, I want some.

Heroin.
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Linkish1O2
Posts: 2,003
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3/26/2014 6:48:44 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/26/2014 6:47:13 PM, YYW wrote:
At 3/26/2014 6:39:12 PM, Linkish1O2 wrote:
At 3/26/2014 6:33:54 PM, YYW wrote:
At 3/26/2014 6:32:44 PM, AnDoctuir wrote:
I mean you can't not see what you're doing here, lol. Seriously... how does it feel?

They have medicine for that, you know.

Oh oh, are you selling, I want some.

Heroin.
does it come with needles?
"I am a mystery and to unlock the mystery at my core, one must simply embrace slendermans hug with no fear."- me

"I hearby declare myself a phantom in the darkness."-me
ADreamOfLiberty
Posts: 1,570
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3/26/2014 7:03:43 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
YYW you are a case study both for intolerance of disagreement and uncivility. That you feel qualified to lecture on these matters is the height of hypocrisy.

You are member 2, but you skip right to "You're a fvcking idiot, dude."

The issue is both a lack of civility and a lack of actually doing something other than just disagreeing. What you say is basically "if we can't insult each other how will we disagree." I say if we don't argue, why express disagreement?
LOL, yeah, it's pretty amazing how they think they can "reason" with you. - Sidewalker, speaking of advocates for sexual deviancy.

So, my advice, Liberty, is to go somewhere else. Leave, and never come back. - YYW

And that's what I did. Contact me at http://www.edeb8.com... by the same user name if you have anything you'd like to say.
YYW
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3/26/2014 7:03:44 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/26/2014 6:48:44 PM, Linkish1O2 wrote:
At 3/26/2014 6:47:13 PM, YYW wrote:
At 3/26/2014 6:39:12 PM, Linkish1O2 wrote:
At 3/26/2014 6:33:54 PM, YYW wrote:
At 3/26/2014 6:32:44 PM, AnDoctuir wrote:
I mean you can't not see what you're doing here, lol. Seriously... how does it feel?

They have medicine for that, you know.

Oh oh, are you selling, I want some.

Heroin.
does it come with needles?

We could work something out, but it's better to just chase the dragon.
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Linkish1O2
Posts: 2,003
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3/26/2014 7:04:59 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/26/2014 7:03:44 PM, YYW wrote:
At 3/26/2014 6:48:44 PM, Linkish1O2 wrote:
At 3/26/2014 6:47:13 PM, YYW wrote:
At 3/26/2014 6:39:12 PM, Linkish1O2 wrote:
At 3/26/2014 6:33:54 PM, YYW wrote:
At 3/26/2014 6:32:44 PM, AnDoctuir wrote:
I mean you can't not see what you're doing here, lol. Seriously... how does it feel?

They have medicine for that, you know.

Oh oh, are you selling, I want some.

Heroin.
does it come with needles?

We could work something out, but it's better to just chase the dragon.

damnit man you know i need more needles to catch that purple dragon.
"I am a mystery and to unlock the mystery at my core, one must simply embrace slendermans hug with no fear."- me

"I hearby declare myself a phantom in the darkness."-me
bluesteel
Posts: 12,301
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3/26/2014 7:06:15 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
But then there are members who do this:

Member 1: X
Member 2: No, Y.
Member 1: Y is irrelevant because of Z.
Member 2: You're a fvcking idiot, dude. You're too stupid to even talk to. If you can't tell why Y is important, you lack the brain capacity to even be worthy of my time.
Member 1: Ad hom.
Member 2: You just have thin skin. I don't live my life caring about hurting other people's feellings. You are a pathetic human being and should give up on life. You're the kind of repressed guy that I would never be attracted to.
Member 1: {Silently cries}
Member 2: {Feels good about himself for hurting someone else's feelings}.
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)
YYW
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3/26/2014 7:22:53 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/26/2014 7:06:15 PM, bluesteel wrote:
But then there are members who do this:

Member 1: X
Member 2: No, Y.
Member 1: Y is irrelevant because of Z.
Member 2: You're a fvcking idiot, dude. You're too stupid to even talk to. If you can't tell why Y is important, you lack the brain capacity to even be worthy of my time.
Member 1: Ad hom.
Member 2: You just have thin skin. I don't live my life caring about hurting other people's feellings. You are a pathetic human being and should give up on life. You're the kind of repressed guy that I would never be attracted to.
Member 1: {Silently cries}
Member 2: {Feels good about himself for hurting someone else's feelings}.

There are also members who do this:

Member 1: X
Member 2: ~X because of Y.
Member 1: If Y, then X.
Member 2: How dare you believe X. You are so blind. I'm going to show you how blind you are by trolling you because I disagree with X and to punish you because you believe X.
Member 1: Go ahead, make my day.

[five hours later, in the early hours of the morning]

Member 2: [realizes that member 1 knew that member 2 had obligations the next day, and intentionally kept him up to hurt member 2's productivity the next day]
Member 1: You ruined any chance of a meaningful conversation, because of the way you acted.
Member 2: I'm offended by the fact that you disagree with me!
Member 1: [Gets member 2 to do something incredibly stupid, and leaves member 2 in a position where he doesn't know what to believe]
Member 2: [Feels stupid because at best he was played by member 1 at his own expense].

Weeks later

Member 1: Get over it dude.
Member 2: [Pouts]
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bluesteel
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3/26/2014 7:27:13 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
lol, interesting hypothetical.

In general, I hope Member's on this site can be adults and not blame others for their own choices -- e.g., staying up past their bedtimes.
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)
YYW
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3/26/2014 7:30:29 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/26/2014 7:27:13 PM, bluesteel wrote:
lol, interesting hypothetical.

In general, I hope Member's on this site can be adults and not blame others for their own choices -- e.g., staying up past their bedtimes.
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bladerunner060
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3/26/2014 7:43:08 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
But don't you agree it would be better if Member 2 wasn't a jerk, either?

I mean, that we can agree Member 1 was being ridiculous doesn't mean "therefore whatever Member 2 did is irrelevant"
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NiqashMotawadi3
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3/26/2014 7:44:54 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I used to treat one of my classmates as a scapegoat whenever I did something naughty, and point at him and say "Joe did it." This was picked up by my group of friends and other people in the class who found that hilarious. My friends made a homemade bomb, which was relatively small, and ignited it in the girl's bathroom in our free period, when the bathroom was empty. But still some of the students in the classes panicked and some kids seriously thought that Israel was bombing the school and called their parents, which made this even more hilarious and odd. The math teacher figured it was someone from our class or someone from another class who asked his teacher for permission to go to the bathroom from the other classes(and that was documented in permission slips with dates and lesson times). So the teacher played detective and conducted an investigation with few people from outside our class and then all my classmates. My group of friends were 5, so we all agreed to say that Joe showed us the bomb in his bag, but never told us that he would want to set it off. Looking back retrospectively, this was a bad move, because Joe could have been expelled, but luckily there were so many funny and weird stories of who actually did that , and so the teacher gave up on the investigation, and went back to explaining linear functions.
tulle
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3/26/2014 7:45:16 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/26/2014 6:17:50 PM, YYW wrote:
Since it might not be clear prima facia what I'm talking about, here's a scenario to explain that point:

At 3/26/2014 7:06:15 PM, bluesteel wrote:
But then there are members who do this:

At 3/26/2014 7:22:53 PM, YYW wrote:

There are also members who do this:

Omg what am I reading lol
yang.
YYW
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3/26/2014 7:46:57 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/26/2014 7:43:08 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
But don't you agree it would be better if Member 2 wasn't a jerk, either?

It wouldn't make any real difference, because member 1 is going to be offended on the basis of member 2's disagreement whether member 2 is a jerk or not. Might it still be better, just in the interest of decorum? Sure... but that doesn't change the fact that member 1's flaws are the reason for the problem.

I mean, that we can agree Member 1 was being ridiculous doesn't mean "therefore whatever Member 2 did is irrelevant"
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bladerunner060
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3/26/2014 7:51:24 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/26/2014 7:46:57 PM, YYW wrote:
At 3/26/2014 7:43:08 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
But don't you agree it would be better if Member 2 wasn't a jerk, either?

It wouldn't make any real difference, because member 1 is going to be offended on the basis of member 2's disagreement whether member 2 is a jerk or not. Might it still be better, just in the interest of decorum? Sure... but that doesn't change the fact that member 1's flaws are the reason for the problem.

I agree: disagreement is the point of this site, and behavior like what you outlined is a problem. Still, though, responses like merely saying "you're an idiot" don't further debate, either. So while I'd agree that M1's actions are "a problem", I wouldn't necessarily agree that they're "the problem", because I see M2's actions as problematic as well. I don't think it's too much to ask that there be a basic level of civility.
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yay842
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3/26/2014 7:59:33 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Member 1: X
Member 2: Y
Member 1: XX
Member 2: XXX?
Member 1: XXX!
Member 2: XXX!
Member 1 and 2: XXX! XXX! XXX!
Member 3: XXXXXXX!
Member 1 and 2: -.-
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YYW
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3/26/2014 8:08:56 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/26/2014 7:59:33 PM, yay842 wrote:
Member 1: X
Member 2: Y
Member 1: XX
Member 2: XXX?
Member 1: XXX!
Member 2: XXX!
Member 1 and 2: XXX! XXX! XXX!
Member 3: XXXXXXX!
Member 1 and 2: -.-

lol, that is exactly how people argue
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Khaos_Mage
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3/26/2014 8:09:24 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/26/2014 7:51:24 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 3/26/2014 7:46:57 PM, YYW wrote:
At 3/26/2014 7:43:08 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
But don't you agree it would be better if Member 2 wasn't a jerk, either?

It wouldn't make any real difference, because member 1 is going to be offended on the basis of member 2's disagreement whether member 2 is a jerk or not. Might it still be better, just in the interest of decorum? Sure... but that doesn't change the fact that member 1's flaws are the reason for the problem.

I agree: disagreement is the point of this site, and behavior like what you outlined is a problem. Still, though, responses like merely saying "you're an idiot" don't further debate, either. So while I'd agree that M1's actions are "a problem", I wouldn't necessarily agree that they're "the problem", because I see M2's actions as problematic as well. I don't think it's too much to ask that there be a basic level of civility... at least for a few exchanges anyway.
My work here is, finally, done.