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An Open Letter to DDO

Zaradi
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4/7/2014 4:24:23 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Before I begin, I'd like to make a disclaimer. These will be my complete and absolute unfiltered thoughts. I haven't done any kind of preparation before this to get what I want to say in order. There may or may not be things that could be considered reportable in this post, since I will be discussing active members and their contributions within this thread. If you think you see something that is reportable, all I ask is that you hold your report to the end so that you can get the full spectrum of what I'm trying to say. If you still wish to report me, then go for it.

---

With the farewell address from imabench confirming he is, indeed, not staying and will be leaving, DDO is now in an interesting place. The new policy has, effectively, brought about a new age to DDO. Whether that new age will bring benefits or only further cause the site to spiral downwards is yet to be seen, but I don't think a single person is willing to say that DDO has not changed under this new policy.

The policy's overall goal is simple: to make DDO a more open place for intelligent discussion, and to reduce the amount of flame that happens in threads by removing people's ability to insult without getting banned. And while, since the policy has been implimented I really haven't seen anything that could be categorized as a serious "flame war" anywhere on the DDO forums, the simple question that needs to be asked (and I really don't think it has been) goes something like this: was it worth it? Let's take a look.

As Ore_Ele brought up in a forum (I forget which one, I think it was imabench's goodbye thread), since the implementation of the policy, forum posts have gone up, even though votes have slightly decreased. And while people may point to this and say "See!? More posts, the policy must be working if more people are posting!", I feel like there are two easy explanations for why this isn't the case. The easiest, and first one, is that a lot of the sudden spike in posting can be easily explained by the sudden policy change, and all the massive controversy, and posting, that came with discussing it, so it's not that people are having more discussion, but rather that this spike is a bit of an outlier in terms of actual statistics.

The second one is where I'll be stealing from bluesteel and his response to Ore_ele that I think is spot on: the number of posts being posted isn't what we should be looking at, but rather the quality of the posts being submitted. It doesn't matter if people are posting three thousand more posts than usual if all of those posts talk about someone's favorite color or what one likes to eat their ice cream with, a fork or a spoon. I don't know about you guys, but that's not really what DDO was set up to discuss. DDO is supposed to be about fostering intellectual discussion and debate over key issues and concepts. The community feel, as nice as it is, is secondary to it's actual purpose, which is to DEBATE on DEBATE-dot-org.

So then have the quality of these posts been up to what we want? I disagree. Look at people like jifpop, who spam the site with the absolutely stupid DDO Revolutionary bullsh*t. Look at people like Krazzy, who spams the forums with his "troll hunting" bullsh*t. People like bubba, who before he realized how stupid he was being and left, spammed the forums in the same way that Jifpop still is. Nothing even close to "quality" has come from any of this. So while the number of posts themselves may have gone up, the quality of the posts haven't changed, if anything may have decreased from the exodus of members.

I don't think anyone will deny that that quality of discussion and debate that's occuring on the site is less than optimal, and that it's something we should be attempting to fix. I disagree that this new policy fixes the problem, so then how do we actually fix the problem? I wish to discuss one of the proposed solutions, championed by YYW and other users, before proposing my solution to the problem.

The current "solution" floating around, as championed by YYW, is that all we have to do to fix the problem is to just start posting more intelligent stuff and, slowly but surely, the site quality will improve and we'll attract new people who will want to start improving the site as well and it will just compound upon itself.

To begin with, I want to say that this proposed solution is highly optimistic, perhaps to the point of being unrealistic. But even past that, there's no actual evidence that this theory actually works, especially considering that's essentially what we've been trying to do for the past year or so and we've only been going downwards in terms of the quality of the site, not upwards. But even if it has been causing improvements, it doesn't actually solve the core problem of the site, rather just treats one of it's symptoms.

The real problem with this site is that we're not expanding optimally. What do I mean by this? It's simple: we're not attracting enough valuable members who are trying to make positive contributions to the site to outweigh all the garbage we're attracting. Until we improve the quality of the site to make it more attractive to people who want to have intelligent discussion as well as make positive contributions to the site in general, we're not going to make any kind of progress in improving the site.

So why doesn't YYW's suggestion fix this? Because the way the site is set up currently represses our ability to actually create these intellectual discussions and improve the quality of stuff that's going out for others to see. Debates are filled with forfeits, and even those that aren't filled with forfeits rarely receive votes, and even those who receive votes are often really poor quality votes. The forum section hasn't even been looked at for revamping since I've been on the site, and it desperately needs one to make it easier to keep up with discussions going on in it. Just saying "lets do more stuff" doesn't solve any of these problems. Until these problems are solved, any kind of effort we as users put into improving the quality of the site will have a massively reduced effectiveness. Moreover, there's not even enough people willing to pick up the slack to make any kind of meaningful impact. It was either bluesteel or Skeptisyma (sp? Sorry if I misspelled you username) that had a good response for this by saying that this change is going to be far different from the AnCap exodus, which a lot of people are comparing this current site problem to and saying that it won't be site-damning. The difference between the two situations is that after the AnCap exodus, there were plenty of people still around who were able and willing to pick up the slack and make meaningful contributions to the site. The same can't be said here. All that's left is a few new members, a handful of the old guard, half of which at least have an idea of what would be required and don't want to have to deal with all of it, and a sea of trolls. Hardly the same situation.

So then how can we solve these problems? Trick question: we can't. Solving these problems would require the ability to edit the coding of the site to effectively patch the site, which is something that only Juggle can do. So the way the site gets fixed is this: If the site wants to become more open and conducive to intelligent discussion and debate, Juggles NEEDS to improve the debate and forums sections of DDO by updating/changing the sections to better suit DDO's wants/needs.

So why don't we see this happening? Because Juggle isn't interested in doing this. As they've expressed before, they want to focus on the Opinions/Polls section fo DDO since it attracts the most site traffic, therefore increasing their revenue. A fair concern, but it doesn't solve the problems this site has. And until the problems this site has are solved, we're just going to continue to spiral downwards.
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Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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4/7/2014 5:41:43 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Well it's obvious where the site is headed. I have a feeling once edeb8's site is more aesthetically appealing and user friendly, that is where the more intelligent debator's will spend the bulk of their time. It's win-win. If the better debator's are spending the bulk of their time elsewhere than the children joining this site will feel more comfortable here (as a result of not being challenged) and stick around, creating a bigger user base and more steady income stream.
iamanatheistandthisiswhy
Posts: 720
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4/7/2014 6:10:36 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
What would be more beneficial is if people just didn't jump ship and actually wait to be banned. It might not be as easy as everyone is making it out to be. I intend doing what I am doing (granted I don't get involved in flame wars, well mostly). If I get banned the I get banned so what no need to run before the guillotine has fallen.
Zaradi
Posts: 14,121
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4/7/2014 6:21:48 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/7/2014 6:10:36 AM, iamanatheistandthisiswhy wrote:
What would be more beneficial is if people just didn't jump ship and actually wait to be banned. It might not be as easy as everyone is making it out to be. I intend doing what I am doing (granted I don't get involved in flame wars, well mostly). If I get banned the I get banned so what no need to run before the guillotine has fallen.

What's the point if you know you're going to be banned? If you know it's only a matter of time until you're banned, then why just drag it out and cause a lot of drama when you can save everyone else time and effort and just peace out?
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Zaradi
Posts: 14,121
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4/7/2014 6:22:29 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/7/2014 5:41:43 AM, Wylted wrote:
Well it's obvious where the site is headed. I have a feeling once edeb8's site is more aesthetically appealing and user friendly, that is where the more intelligent debator's will spend the bulk of their time. It's win-win. If the better debator's are spending the bulk of their time elsewhere than the children joining this site will feel more comfortable here (as a result of not being challenged) and stick around, creating a bigger user base and more steady income stream.

If this happens then edeb8 will get a lot of the same problems that DDO has in the future. Doesn't solve the problem
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TheGreatAndPowerful
Posts: 3,012
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4/7/2014 6:29:05 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/7/2014 4:24:23 AM, Zaradi wrote:

The policy's overall goal is simple: to make DDO a more open place for intelligent discussion, and to reduce the amount of flame that happens in threads by removing people's ability to insult without getting banned.

No it isn't. The new policy's overall goal is to make life easier for moderators. They want to reduce the complaints going their way and reduce liability on themselves. Don't kid yourself.

Do you really think that airmax or Ore actually care whether someone's feelings get hurt? No, they care about such things only to the degree it creates problems for them.

The rest of your post, I agree with 100%
Zaradi
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4/7/2014 6:31:51 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/7/2014 6:29:05 AM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:

Damn, and I thought *I* was being the cynical a**hole
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TheGreatAndPowerful
Posts: 3,012
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4/7/2014 6:45:31 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/7/2014 6:31:51 AM, Zaradi wrote:
At 4/7/2014 6:29:05 AM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:

Damn, and I thought *I* was being the cynical a**hole

Ore has basically come out and said he really doesn't care how people feel and whether they stay or go because other nameless faces will shuffle in to keep the numbers up. Do you think a person expressing that sentiment cares about any individual members feelings?
Zaradi
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4/7/2014 6:47:01 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/7/2014 6:45:31 AM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
At 4/7/2014 6:31:51 AM, Zaradi wrote:
At 4/7/2014 6:29:05 AM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:

Damn, and I thought *I* was being the cynical a**hole

Ore has basically come out and said he really doesn't care how people feel and whether they stay or go because other nameless faces will shuffle in to keep the numbers up. Do you think a person expressing that sentiment cares about any individual members feelings?

So then why are you still here if this is how you feel?
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iamanatheistandthisiswhy
Posts: 720
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4/7/2014 6:57:14 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/7/2014 6:21:48 AM, Zaradi wrote:
At 4/7/2014 6:10:36 AM, iamanatheistandthisiswhy wrote:
What would be more beneficial is if people just didn't jump ship and actually wait to be banned. It might not be as easy as everyone is making it out to be. I intend doing what I am doing (granted I don't get involved in flame wars, well mostly). If I get banned the I get banned so what no need to run before the guillotine has fallen.

What's the point if you know you're going to be banned? If you know it's only a matter of time until you're banned, then why just drag it out and cause a lot of drama when you can save everyone else time and effort and just peace out?

Basically, sticking to what you believe in. Also I do not think this is going to be such a disaster as the moderators are realistic in that even the person who is reporting comes under scrutiny.
Zaradi
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4/7/2014 7:00:28 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/7/2014 6:57:14 AM, iamanatheistandthisiswhy wrote:
At 4/7/2014 6:21:48 AM, Zaradi wrote:
At 4/7/2014 6:10:36 AM, iamanatheistandthisiswhy wrote:
What would be more beneficial is if people just didn't jump ship and actually wait to be banned. It might not be as easy as everyone is making it out to be. I intend doing what I am doing (granted I don't get involved in flame wars, well mostly). If I get banned the I get banned so what no need to run before the guillotine has fallen.

What's the point if you know you're going to be banned? If you know it's only a matter of time until you're banned, then why just drag it out and cause a lot of drama when you can save everyone else time and effort and just peace out?

Basically, sticking to what you believe in.

That functions both ways.

Also I do not think this is going to be such a disaster as the moderators are realistic in that even the person who is reporting comes under scrutiny.

If this were true then there's no reason to implement the policy as we trust the moderators and would go with whatever they wanted to begin with.
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iamanatheistandthisiswhy
Posts: 720
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4/7/2014 7:02:12 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/7/2014 7:00:28 AM, Zaradi wrote:
At 4/7/2014 6:57:14 AM, iamanatheistandthisiswhy wrote:
At 4/7/2014 6:21:48 AM, Zaradi wrote:
At 4/7/2014 6:10:36 AM, iamanatheistandthisiswhy wrote:
What would be more beneficial is if people just didn't jump ship and actually wait to be banned. It might not be as easy as everyone is making it out to be. I intend doing what I am doing (granted I don't get involved in flame wars, well mostly). If I get banned the I get banned so what no need to run before the guillotine has fallen.

What's the point if you know you're going to be banned? If you know it's only a matter of time until you're banned, then why just drag it out and cause a lot of drama when you can save everyone else time and effort and just peace out?

Basically, sticking to what you believe in.

That functions both ways.

Also I do not think this is going to be such a disaster as the moderators are realistic in that even the person who is reporting comes under scrutiny.

If this were true then there's no reason to implement the policy as we trust the moderators and would go with whatever they wanted to begin with.

I agree with that, but now if it gets completely out of hand the moderators can ban someone without looking like a tool.
TheGreatAndPowerful
Posts: 3,012
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4/7/2014 7:04:57 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/7/2014 6:47:01 AM, Zaradi wrote:
At 4/7/2014 6:45:31 AM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
At 4/7/2014 6:31:51 AM, Zaradi wrote:
At 4/7/2014 6:29:05 AM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:

Damn, and I thought *I* was being the cynical a**hole

Ore has basically come out and said he really doesn't care how people feel and whether they stay or go because other nameless faces will shuffle in to keep the numbers up. Do you think a person expressing that sentiment cares about any individual members feelings?

So then why are you still here if this is how you feel?

TV asked me to co mod his mafia game and I jumped the gun on creating the account so I'm dicking around to pass the time.

You?
larztheloser
Posts: 857
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4/7/2014 7:23:34 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/7/2014 6:22:29 AM, Zaradi wrote:
At 4/7/2014 5:41:43 AM, Wylted wrote:
Well it's obvious where the site is headed. I have a feeling once edeb8's site is more aesthetically appealing and user friendly, that is where the more intelligent debator's will spend the bulk of their time. It's win-win. If the better debator's are spending the bulk of their time elsewhere than the children joining this site will feel more comfortable here (as a result of not being challenged) and stick around, creating a bigger user base and more steady income stream.

If this happens then edeb8 will get a lot of the same problems that DDO has in the future. Doesn't solve the problem

Let me stop you right there. Edeb8 has no focus on revenue, and has a strong focus on improving debates, with exactly the opposite incentives to juggle. I should know. "improve the debate and forums sections" - your favored solution - occupies like 75% of my spare time for edeb8.

I've always said that if somebody can help me with the site aesthetics I'd be more than willing to get them onboard. Personally I'm not the world's #1 designer, so anyone who could help me out I'd much appreciate it. Or any criticism at all I love to hear. Rollout of new top menu bar is happening in a couple of days thanks to feedback from CP, for example.
Zaradi
Posts: 14,121
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4/7/2014 7:35:32 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/7/2014 7:23:34 AM, larztheloser wrote:
At 4/7/2014 6:22:29 AM, Zaradi wrote:
At 4/7/2014 5:41:43 AM, Wylted wrote:
Well it's obvious where the site is headed. I have a feeling once edeb8's site is more aesthetically appealing and user friendly, that is where the more intelligent debator's will spend the bulk of their time. It's win-win. If the better debator's are spending the bulk of their time elsewhere than the children joining this site will feel more comfortable here (as a result of not being challenged) and stick around, creating a bigger user base and more steady income stream.

If this happens then edeb8 will get a lot of the same problems that DDO has in the future. Doesn't solve the problem

Let me stop you right there. Edeb8 has no focus on revenue, and has a strong focus on improving debates, with exactly the opposite incentives to juggle. I should know. "improve the debate and forums sections" - your favored solution - occupies like 75% of my spare time for edeb8.

Misinterpreting what I'm saying. A focus on revenue isn't causing the problem: getting trolls is a pretty general problem for the internet. I'm saying that Juggle is mishandling the problem, and by doing so killing the site. If we all just leave DDO and come to edeb8, there's no guarantee that the trolls also don't just follow us over and create a lot of the same issues to resolve.
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Zaradi
Posts: 14,121
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4/7/2014 7:37:28 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/7/2014 7:04:57 AM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
At 4/7/2014 6:47:01 AM, Zaradi wrote:
At 4/7/2014 6:45:31 AM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
At 4/7/2014 6:31:51 AM, Zaradi wrote:
At 4/7/2014 6:29:05 AM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:

Damn, and I thought *I* was being the cynical a**hole

Ore has basically come out and said he really doesn't care how people feel and whether they stay or go because other nameless faces will shuffle in to keep the numbers up. Do you think a person expressing that sentiment cares about any individual members feelings?

So then why are you still here if this is how you feel?

TV asked me to co mod his mafia game and I jumped the gun on creating the account so I'm dicking around to pass the time.

Fair enough.

You?

Not sure.
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daytonanerd
Posts: 6,769
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4/7/2014 7:40:27 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/7/2014 7:35:32 AM, Zaradi wrote:
At 4/7/2014 7:23:34 AM, larztheloser wrote:
At 4/7/2014 6:22:29 AM, Zaradi wrote:
At 4/7/2014 5:41:43 AM, Wylted wrote:
Well it's obvious where the site is headed. I have a feeling once edeb8's site is more aesthetically appealing and user friendly, that is where the more intelligent debator's will spend the bulk of their time. It's win-win. If the better debator's are spending the bulk of their time elsewhere than the children joining this site will feel more comfortable here (as a result of not being challenged) and stick around, creating a bigger user base and more steady income stream.

If this happens then edeb8 will get a lot of the same problems that DDO has in the future. Doesn't solve the problem

Let me stop you right there. Edeb8 has no focus on revenue, and has a strong focus on improving debates, with exactly the opposite incentives to juggle. I should know. "improve the debate and forums sections" - your favored solution - occupies like 75% of my spare time for edeb8.

Misinterpreting what I'm saying. A focus on revenue isn't causing the problem: getting trolls is a pretty general problem for the internet. I'm saying that Juggle is mishandling the problem, and by doing so killing the site. If we all just leave DDO and come to edeb8, there's no guarantee that the trolls also don't just follow us over and create a lot of the same issues to resolve.

I don't mean to be a d*ck, or vain, but would the banning policy I put in my pres platform help the situation, in your eyes?
#FeeltheFreezerBern
larztheloser
Posts: 857
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4/7/2014 7:41:16 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/7/2014 7:35:32 AM, Zaradi wrote:
At 4/7/2014 7:23:34 AM, larztheloser wrote:
At 4/7/2014 6:22:29 AM, Zaradi wrote:
At 4/7/2014 5:41:43 AM, Wylted wrote:
Well it's obvious where the site is headed. I have a feeling once edeb8's site is more aesthetically appealing and user friendly, that is where the more intelligent debator's will spend the bulk of their time. It's win-win. If the better debator's are spending the bulk of their time elsewhere than the children joining this site will feel more comfortable here (as a result of not being challenged) and stick around, creating a bigger user base and more steady income stream.

If this happens then edeb8 will get a lot of the same problems that DDO has in the future. Doesn't solve the problem

Let me stop you right there. Edeb8 has no focus on revenue, and has a strong focus on improving debates, with exactly the opposite incentives to juggle. I should know. "improve the debate and forums sections" - your favored solution - occupies like 75% of my spare time for edeb8.

Misinterpreting what I'm saying. A focus on revenue isn't causing the problem: getting trolls is a pretty general problem for the internet. I'm saying that Juggle is mishandling the problem, and by doing so killing the site. If we all just leave DDO and come to edeb8, there's no guarantee that the trolls also don't just follow us over and create a lot of the same issues to resolve.

On edeb8, the terms of use are actually strictly enforced. So the trolls would have to get through me first. And I have a very low tolerance for trolls. Having said that, juggle will do everything in their power to keep trolls here if they bring in revenue through posting trillions of pointless polls or something.
Zaradi
Posts: 14,121
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4/7/2014 7:41:47 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/7/2014 7:40:27 AM, daytonanerd wrote:

I don't mean to be a d*ck, or vain, but would the banning policy I put in my pres platform ---

Let me stop you right here. A question in response: Are you really going to use this thread to bring up an election that isn't even close in terms of about to happen and bring up your platform?
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Zaradi
Posts: 14,121
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4/7/2014 7:42:32 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/7/2014 7:41:16 AM, larztheloser wrote:
At 4/7/2014 7:35:32 AM, Zaradi wrote:
At 4/7/2014 7:23:34 AM, larztheloser wrote:
At 4/7/2014 6:22:29 AM, Zaradi wrote:
At 4/7/2014 5:41:43 AM, Wylted wrote:
Well it's obvious where the site is headed. I have a feeling once edeb8's site is more aesthetically appealing and user friendly, that is where the more intelligent debator's will spend the bulk of their time. It's win-win. If the better debator's are spending the bulk of their time elsewhere than the children joining this site will feel more comfortable here (as a result of not being challenged) and stick around, creating a bigger user base and more steady income stream.

If this happens then edeb8 will get a lot of the same problems that DDO has in the future. Doesn't solve the problem

Let me stop you right there. Edeb8 has no focus on revenue, and has a strong focus on improving debates, with exactly the opposite incentives to juggle. I should know. "improve the debate and forums sections" - your favored solution - occupies like 75% of my spare time for edeb8.

Misinterpreting what I'm saying. A focus on revenue isn't causing the problem: getting trolls is a pretty general problem for the internet. I'm saying that Juggle is mishandling the problem, and by doing so killing the site. If we all just leave DDO and come to edeb8, there's no guarantee that the trolls also don't just follow us over and create a lot of the same issues to resolve.

On edeb8, the terms of use are actually strictly enforced. So the trolls would have to get through me first. And I have a very low tolerance for trolls. Having said that, juggle will do everything in their power to keep trolls here if they bring in revenue through posting trillions of pointless polls or something.

Would imabench have been tempbanned under your ToU?
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larztheloser
Posts: 857
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4/7/2014 7:44:22 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/7/2014 7:42:32 AM, Zaradi wrote:
At 4/7/2014 7:41:16 AM, larztheloser wrote:
At 4/7/2014 7:35:32 AM, Zaradi wrote:
At 4/7/2014 7:23:34 AM, larztheloser wrote:
At 4/7/2014 6:22:29 AM, Zaradi wrote:
At 4/7/2014 5:41:43 AM, Wylted wrote:
Well it's obvious where the site is headed. I have a feeling once edeb8's site is more aesthetically appealing and user friendly, that is where the more intelligent debator's will spend the bulk of their time. It's win-win. If the better debator's are spending the bulk of their time elsewhere than the children joining this site will feel more comfortable here (as a result of not being challenged) and stick around, creating a bigger user base and more steady income stream.

If this happens then edeb8 will get a lot of the same problems that DDO has in the future. Doesn't solve the problem

Let me stop you right there. Edeb8 has no focus on revenue, and has a strong focus on improving debates, with exactly the opposite incentives to juggle. I should know. "improve the debate and forums sections" - your favored solution - occupies like 75% of my spare time for edeb8.

Misinterpreting what I'm saying. A focus on revenue isn't causing the problem: getting trolls is a pretty general problem for the internet. I'm saying that Juggle is mishandling the problem, and by doing so killing the site. If we all just leave DDO and come to edeb8, there's no guarantee that the trolls also don't just follow us over and create a lot of the same issues to resolve.

On edeb8, the terms of use are actually strictly enforced. So the trolls would have to get through me first. And I have a very low tolerance for trolls. Having said that, juggle will do everything in their power to keep trolls here if they bring in revenue through posting trillions of pointless polls or something.

Would imabench have been tempbanned under your ToU?

If he had acted in the same way, likely yes.
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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4/7/2014 8:00:52 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/7/2014 7:35:32 AM, Zaradi wrote:
At 4/7/2014 7:23:34 AM, larztheloser wrote:
At 4/7/2014 6:22:29 AM, Zaradi wrote:
At 4/7/2014 5:41:43 AM, Wylted wrote:
Well it's obvious where the site is headed. I have a feeling once edeb8's site is more aesthetically appealing and user friendly, that is where the more intelligent debator's will spend the bulk of their time. It's win-win. If the better debator's are spending the bulk of their time elsewhere than the children joining this site will feel more comfortable here (as a result of not being challenged) and stick around, creating a bigger user base and more steady income stream.

If this happens then edeb8 will get a lot of the same problems that DDO has in the future. Doesn't solve the problem

Let me stop you right there. Edeb8 has no focus on revenue, and has a strong focus on improving debates, with exactly the opposite incentives to juggle. I should know. "improve the debate and forums sections" - your favored solution - occupies like 75% of my spare time for edeb8.

Misinterpreting what I'm saying. A focus on revenue isn't causing the problem: getting trolls is a pretty general problem for the internet. I'm saying that Juggle is mishandling the problem, and by doing so killing the site. If we all just leave DDO and come to edeb8, there's no guarantee that the trolls also don't just follow us over and create a lot of the same issues to resolve.

Trolls won't follow to edeb8 until edeb8 becomes big enough. Of course, if everyone left and went over there, it would substantially grow in size, perhaps to the point of attracting attention.

On a semi side note, for any site trying to survive as something other than a social hangout, a steady stream of new members is a requirement. New members bring new perspectives and occasionally new ideas. Without new members, even the highest quality posters end up getting bored and either move on or only discuss social things.

You mentioned that after the AnCap exodus that there were members to pick up the slack, but of the "high quality" posters that have maintained recently, how many are actually from before that? Most of them are new members that came after with new ideas and new perspectives. It is the inflow of new members, that while most don't stay or don't do anything of high quality, will bring in the occasional gem.
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Haroush
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4/7/2014 8:04:00 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/7/2014 4:24:23 AM, Zaradi wrote:

To begin with, I want to say that this proposed solution is highly optimistic, perhaps to the point of being unrealistic. But even past that, there's no actual evidence that this theory actually works, especially considering that's essentially what we've been trying to do for the past year or so and we've only been going downwards in terms of the quality of the site, not upwards. But even if it has been causing improvements, it doesn't actually solve the core problem of the site, rather just treats one of it's symptoms.

The real problem with this site is that we're not expanding optimally. What do I mean by this? It's simple: we're not attracting enough valuable members who are trying to make positive contributions to the site to outweigh all the garbage we're attracting.

May I ask you what you consider garbage on this site? Furthermore, what do you consider positive contributions?

Do you think novice debaters deserve a chance at proving themselves on this site?

If you do, what would be your determining factors if someone was improving or not? What would be your requirements for these people?

By the way, I do agree with you about quality. I think anyone who would ignore your message is gravely mistaken in the importance of this message. I still have plenty of questions though..

Until we improve the quality of the site to make it more attractive to people who want to have intelligent discussion as well as make positive contributions to the site in general, we're not going to make any kind of progress in improving the site.

So I understand you feel there hasn't been (for the most part) any quality members signing up with this site. Though, I must ask you.. Is there any new quality members you can think of right now by your standards?

So why doesn't YYW's suggestion fix this? Because the way the site is set up currently represses our ability to actually create these intellectual discussions and improve the quality of stuff that's going out for others to see. Debates are filled with forfeits, and even those that aren't filled with forfeits rarely receive votes, and even those who receive votes are often really poor quality votes.

*Debates are filled with forfeits

This could be fixed easily. Allow the time limits to be longer if the debaters see this as applicable.

*Poor Quality votes

I think it may be a good idea for there to be appointed judges here on DDO. I think this would fix the problem as long as the judges are held at a HIGH STANDARD of FAIR AND BALANCED.

Lastly, could you give me an example of how this website is set up (new policy, priorities, and etc.) to constrict the ability of intellectual discussions and the improvement of quality?

The forum section hasn't even been looked at for revamping since I've been on the site, and it desperately needs one to make it easier to keep up with discussions going on in it. Just saying "lets do more stuff" doesn't solve any of these problems.

If this is true.. I agree with you on this. Meaning the forum section not being looked at for revamping.

Until these problems are solved, any kind of effort we as users put into improving the quality of the site will have a massively reduced effectiveness. Moreover, there's not even enough people willing to pick up the slack to make any kind of meaningful impact. It was either bluesteel or Skeptisyma (sp? Sorry if I misspelled you username) that had a good response for this by saying that this change is going to be far different from the AnCap exodus, which a lot of people are comparing this current site problem to and saying that it won't be site-damning. The difference between the two situations is that after the AnCap exodus, there were plenty of people still around who were able and willing to pick up the slack and make meaningful contributions to the site.

Well aren't you fixing the problem by doing exactly what you are doing right now? Expressing your concerns and helping new people like me understand some of the in depth issues here on DDO?

The same can't be said here. All that's left is a few new members, a handful of the old guard, half of which at least have an idea of what would be required and don't want to have to deal with all of it, and a sea of trolls. Hardly the same situation.

Maybe I sound too optimistic, but I do think things can change.

So then how can we solve these problems? Trick question: we can't. Solving these problems would require the ability to edit the coding of the site to effectively patch the site, which is something that only Juggle can do. So the way the site gets fixed is this: If the site wants to become more open and conducive to intelligent discussion and debate, Juggles NEEDS to improve the debate and forums sections of DDO by updating/changing the sections to better suit DDO's wants/needs.

Never say we can't. If there is a will, there is a way. Why lose all hope when the fight has just begun?

So why don't we see this happening? Because Juggle isn't interested in doing this. As they've expressed before, they want to focus on the Opinions/Polls section for DDO since it attracts the most site traffic, therefore increasing their revenue. A fair concern, but it doesn't solve the problems this site has.

This is why I believe both needs must be fulfilled. Though you pointed something out that is important.... site traffic.. If you can get new members to understand what you are saying here, they will back your idea and help make much needed changes.
Zaradi
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4/7/2014 8:14:45 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/7/2014 8:00:52 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 4/7/2014 7:35:32 AM, Zaradi wrote:
At 4/7/2014 7:23:34 AM, larztheloser wrote:
At 4/7/2014 6:22:29 AM, Zaradi wrote:
At 4/7/2014 5:41:43 AM, Wylted wrote:
Well it's obvious where the site is headed. I have a feeling once edeb8's site is more aesthetically appealing and user friendly, that is where the more intelligent debator's will spend the bulk of their time. It's win-win. If the better debator's are spending the bulk of their time elsewhere than the children joining this site will feel more comfortable here (as a result of not being challenged) and stick around, creating a bigger user base and more steady income stream.

If this happens then edeb8 will get a lot of the same problems that DDO has in the future. Doesn't solve the problem

Let me stop you right there. Edeb8 has no focus on revenue, and has a strong focus on improving debates, with exactly the opposite incentives to juggle. I should know. "improve the debate and forums sections" - your favored solution - occupies like 75% of my spare time for edeb8.

Misinterpreting what I'm saying. A focus on revenue isn't causing the problem: getting trolls is a pretty general problem for the internet. I'm saying that Juggle is mishandling the problem, and by doing so killing the site. If we all just leave DDO and come to edeb8, there's no guarantee that the trolls also don't just follow us over and create a lot of the same issues to resolve.

Trolls won't follow to edeb8 until edeb8 becomes big enough. Of course, if everyone left and went over there, it would substantially grow in size, perhaps to the point of attracting attention.

On a semi side note, for any site trying to survive as something other than a social hangout, a steady stream of new members is a requirement. New members bring new perspectives and occasionally new ideas. Without new members, even the highest quality posters end up getting bored and either move on or only discuss social things.

Exactly. We just aren't getting enough of them anymore, and until we make the necessary changes to warrant attracting their attention back to this site, they won't come back quickly enough.

You mentioned that after the AnCap exodus that there were members to pick up the slack, but of the "high quality" posters that have maintained recently, how many are actually from before that? Most of them are new members that came after with new ideas and new perspectives. It is the inflow of new members, that while most don't stay or don't do anything of high quality, will bring in the occasional gem.

Like I said, yes. We just aren't getting enough of them to counter-balance the number of trolls we get and because of it any kind of intellectual quality this site has is dying. We need to revamp the part of the site that actually brings in quality members (i.e. the debate and forums section) in order to attract them.
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Ore_Ele
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4/7/2014 8:22:46 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/7/2014 6:29:05 AM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
At 4/7/2014 4:24:23 AM, Zaradi wrote:

The policy's overall goal is simple: to make DDO a more open place for intelligent discussion, and to reduce the amount of flame that happens in threads by removing people's ability to insult without getting banned.

No it isn't. The new policy's overall goal is to make life easier for moderators. They want to reduce the complaints going their way and reduce liability on themselves. Don't kid yourself.

Do you really think that airmax or Ore actually care whether someone's feelings get hurt? No, they care about such things only to the degree it creates problems for them.

The rest of your post, I agree with 100%

Probably shouldn't be too surprising but this is actually incorrect. If the goal was to reduce the workload we wouldn't be pushing to have the opinions and polls fall under the same moderation umbrella. What we would do is stop moderating and go back to being regular members.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Zaradi
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4/7/2014 8:25:23 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/7/2014 8:04:00 AM, Haroush wrote:
At 4/7/2014 4:24:23 AM, Zaradi wrote:

To begin with, I want to say that this proposed solution is highly optimistic, perhaps to the point of being unrealistic. But even past that, there's no actual evidence that this theory actually works, especially considering that's essentially what we've been trying to do for the past year or so and we've only been going downwards in terms of the quality of the site, not upwards. But even if it has been causing improvements, it doesn't actually solve the core problem of the site, rather just treats one of it's symptoms.

The real problem with this site is that we're not expanding optimally. What do I mean by this? It's simple: we're not attracting enough valuable members who are trying to make positive contributions to the site to outweigh all the garbage we're attracting.

May I ask you what you consider garbage on this site?

The opinion and polls section, but that's a discussion for another day. But there's just a lot of members who aren't actually providing anything and just flat out trolling which is heavily degrading the quality of the site (I'm looking at you, Jifpop).

Furthermore, what do you consider positive contributions?

Contributions that improve the quality of the site?

Do you think novice debaters deserve a chance at proving themselves on this site?

Of course. We just aren't getting enough new members who have proved themselves to be positive members of the community to counter-balance the crap we're attracting as well.

If you do, what would be your determining factors if someone was improving or not? What would be your requirements for these people?

I'm not outlining any kind of policy or anything. That's not the point of what I'm trying to say here.

By the way, I do agree with you about quality. I think anyone who would ignore your message is gravely mistaken in the importance of this message. I still have plenty of questions though..

Until we improve the quality of the site to make it more attractive to people who want to have intelligent discussion as well as make positive contributions to the site in general, we're not going to make any kind of progress in improving the site.

So I understand you feel there hasn't been (for the most part) any quality members signing up with this site. Though, I must ask you.. Is there any new quality members you can think of right now by your standards?

Of course. There's plenty of new members that we're getting that are great. What I'm saying is we're just not getting enough to counter-balance the trolls, and those new members who we do get, only a few of them actually stick around for the long haul.


So why doesn't YYW's suggestion fix this? Because the way the site is set up currently represses our ability to actually create these intellectual discussions and improve the quality of stuff that's going out for others to see. Debates are filled with forfeits, and even those that aren't filled with forfeits rarely receive votes, and even those who receive votes are often really poor quality votes.

*Debates are filled with forfeits

This could be fixed easily. Allow the time limits to be longer if the debaters see this as applicable.

Doesn't actually solve the problem, though. Even at the max time limit there are still tons of forfeits.

*Poor Quality votes

I think it may be a good idea for there to be appointed judges here on DDO. I think this would fix the problem as long as the judges are held at a HIGH STANDARD of FAIR AND BALANCED.

That doesn't solve the problem either, if anything only exacerbates the fact that we don't have enouhg people voting as it is. Saying "Okay only these people can vote" will just absolutely kill the debate section.

Lastly, could you give me an example of how this website is set up (new policy, priorities, and etc.) to constrict the ability of intellectual discussions and the improvement of quality?

But again, this isn't the point of what I'm trying to get at here.

The forum section hasn't even been looked at for revamping since I've been on the site, and it desperately needs one to make it easier to keep up with discussions going on in it. Just saying "lets do more stuff" doesn't solve any of these problems.

If this is true.. I agree with you on this. Meaning the forum section not being looked at for revamping.

Until these problems are solved, any kind of effort we as users put into improving the quality of the site will have a massively reduced effectiveness. Moreover, there's not even enough people willing to pick up the slack to make any kind of meaningful impact. It was either bluesteel or Skeptisyma (sp? Sorry if I misspelled you username) that had a good response for this by saying that this change is going to be far different from the AnCap exodus, which a lot of people are comparing this current site problem to and saying that it won't be site-damning. The difference between the two situations is that after the AnCap exodus, there were plenty of people still around who were able and willing to pick up the slack and make meaningful contributions to the site.

Well aren't you fixing the problem by doing exactly what you are doing right now? Expressing your concerns and helping new people like me understand some of the in depth issues here on DDO?

No. To say that I'm fixing the problem is incredibly naive. If anything I'm only delaying the inevitable. Even if we all started posting super intellectual stuff and all became super great members of the community, the interests of Juggle would still prevent the site from ever reaching any kind of fruition. Unless you're willing to defend that the polls/opinions section has high quality intellectual content and are a positive intellectual force for this site, that is.

The same can't be said here. All that's left is a few new members, a handful of the old guard, half of which at least have an idea of what would be required and don't want to have to deal with all of it, and a sea of trolls. Hardly the same situation.

Maybe I sound too optimistic, but I do think things can change.

Oh I know things can change. I outlined exactly what would need to be done to get things to change. My point is that they just won't.

So then how can we solve these problems? Trick question: we can't. Solving these problems would require the ability to edit the coding of the site to effectively patch the site, which is something that only Juggle can do. So the way the site gets fixed is this: If the site wants to become more open and conducive to intelligent discussion and debate, Juggles NEEDS to improve the debate and forums sections of DDO by updating/changing the sections to better suit DDO's wants/needs.

Never say we can't. If there is a will, there is a way. Why lose all hope when the fight has just begun?

Lawl the fight has been going on since before I even got here.

So why don't we see this happening? Because Juggle isn't interested in doing this. As they've expressed before, they want to focus on the Opinions/Polls section for DDO since it attracts the most site traffic, therefore increasing their revenue. A fair concern, but it doesn't solve the problems this site has.

This is why I believe both needs must be fulfilled. Though you pointed something out that is important.... site traffic.. If you can get new members to understand what you are saying here, they will back your idea and help make much needed changes.

Both sides are incompatible with one another. We're looking for quality members, not necessarily caring about the number of people who come by. Juggle wants lots and lots of people to visit, not really caring WHO visits. It's a one or the other
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Ore_Ele
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4/7/2014 8:28:24 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/7/2014 8:14:45 AM, Zaradi wrote:
At 4/7/2014 8:00:52 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 4/7/2014 7:35:32 AM, Zaradi wrote:
At 4/7/2014 7:23:34 AM, larztheloser wrote:
At 4/7/2014 6:22:29 AM, Zaradi wrote:
At 4/7/2014 5:41:43 AM, Wylted wrote:
Well it's obvious where the site is headed. I have a feeling once edeb8's site is more aesthetically appealing and user friendly, that is where the more intelligent debator's will spend the bulk of their time. It's win-win. If the better debator's are spending the bulk of their time elsewhere than the children joining this site will feel more comfortable here (as a result of not being challenged) and stick around, creating a bigger user base and more steady income stream.

If this happens then edeb8 will get a lot of the same problems that DDO has in the future. Doesn't solve the problem

Let me stop you right there. Edeb8 has no focus on revenue, and has a strong focus on improving debates, with exactly the opposite incentives to juggle. I should know. "improve the debate and forums sections" - your favored solution - occupies like 75% of my spare time for edeb8.

Misinterpreting what I'm saying. A focus on revenue isn't causing the problem: getting trolls is a pretty general problem for the internet. I'm saying that Juggle is mishandling the problem, and by doing so killing the site. If we all just leave DDO and come to edeb8, there's no guarantee that the trolls also don't just follow us over and create a lot of the same issues to resolve.

Trolls won't follow to edeb8 until edeb8 becomes big enough. Of course, if everyone left and went over there, it would substantially grow in size, perhaps to the point of attracting attention.

On a semi side note, for any site trying to survive as something other than a social hangout, a steady stream of new members is a requirement. New members bring new perspectives and occasionally new ideas. Without new members, even the highest quality posters end up getting bored and either move on or only discuss social things.

Exactly. We just aren't getting enough of them anymore, and until we make the necessary changes to warrant attracting their attention back to this site, they won't come back quickly enough.

This policy is part of that. It is one thing to attract new members and a different to maintain them. A new, potentially good member has no energy vested into DDO, so if they are greeted by insults, why should they stick it out? They'll just move along to somewhere else. Of course, the policy is not the be all end all solution, but it is a key part.


You mentioned that after the AnCap exodus that there were members to pick up the slack, but of the "high quality" posters that have maintained recently, how many are actually from before that? Most of them are new members that came after with new ideas and new perspectives. It is the inflow of new members, that while most don't stay or don't do anything of high quality, will bring in the occasional gem.

Like I said, yes. We just aren't getting enough of them to counter-balance the number of trolls we get and because of it any kind of intellectual quality this site has is dying. We need to revamp the part of the site that actually brings in quality members (i.e. the debate and forums section) in order to attract them.
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Zaradi
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4/7/2014 8:30:59 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/7/2014 8:28:24 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 4/7/2014 8:14:45 AM, Zaradi wrote:
At 4/7/2014 8:00:52 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 4/7/2014 7:35:32 AM, Zaradi wrote:
At 4/7/2014 7:23:34 AM, larztheloser wrote:
At 4/7/2014 6:22:29 AM, Zaradi wrote:
At 4/7/2014 5:41:43 AM, Wylted wrote:
Well it's obvious where the site is headed. I have a feeling once edeb8's site is more aesthetically appealing and user friendly, that is where the more intelligent debator's will spend the bulk of their time. It's win-win. If the better debator's are spending the bulk of their time elsewhere than the children joining this site will feel more comfortable here (as a result of not being challenged) and stick around, creating a bigger user base and more steady income stream.

If this happens then edeb8 will get a lot of the same problems that DDO has in the future. Doesn't solve the problem

Let me stop you right there. Edeb8 has no focus on revenue, and has a strong focus on improving debates, with exactly the opposite incentives to juggle. I should know. "improve the debate and forums sections" - your favored solution - occupies like 75% of my spare time for edeb8.

Misinterpreting what I'm saying. A focus on revenue isn't causing the problem: getting trolls is a pretty general problem for the internet. I'm saying that Juggle is mishandling the problem, and by doing so killing the site. If we all just leave DDO and come to edeb8, there's no guarantee that the trolls also don't just follow us over and create a lot of the same issues to resolve.

Trolls won't follow to edeb8 until edeb8 becomes big enough. Of course, if everyone left and went over there, it would substantially grow in size, perhaps to the point of attracting attention.

On a semi side note, for any site trying to survive as something other than a social hangout, a steady stream of new members is a requirement. New members bring new perspectives and occasionally new ideas. Without new members, even the highest quality posters end up getting bored and either move on or only discuss social things.

Exactly. We just aren't getting enough of them anymore, and until we make the necessary changes to warrant attracting their attention back to this site, they won't come back quickly enough.

This policy is part of that. It is one thing to attract new members and a different to maintain them. A new, potentially good member has no energy vested into DDO, so if they are greeted by insults, why should they stick it out? They'll just move along to somewhere else. Of course, the policy is not the be all end all solution, but it is a key part.

Lets be honest here: has anyone actually been greeted with insults?

Moreover, it's not the insults that are driving newer members away, rather just the lack of content making it worthwhile to stick around for. Creating more content like this is what we need to be doing. Forcing behavior onto site members, therefore, is exactly the wrong thing to be doing.


You mentioned that after the AnCap exodus that there were members to pick up the slack, but of the "high quality" posters that have maintained recently, how many are actually from before that? Most of them are new members that came after with new ideas and new perspectives. It is the inflow of new members, that while most don't stay or don't do anything of high quality, will bring in the occasional gem.

Like I said, yes. We just aren't getting enough of them to counter-balance the number of trolls we get and because of it any kind of intellectual quality this site has is dying. We need to revamp the part of the site that actually brings in quality members (i.e. the debate and forums section) in order to attract them.
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Ore_Ele
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4/7/2014 8:40:31 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/7/2014 8:30:59 AM, Zaradi wrote:
At 4/7/2014 8:28:24 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 4/7/2014 8:14:45 AM, Zaradi wrote:
At 4/7/2014 8:00:52 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 4/7/2014 7:35:32 AM, Zaradi wrote:
At 4/7/2014 7:23:34 AM, larztheloser wrote:
At 4/7/2014 6:22:29 AM, Zaradi wrote:
At 4/7/2014 5:41:43 AM, Wylted wrote:
Well it's obvious where the site is headed. I have a feeling once edeb8's site is more aesthetically appealing and user friendly, that is where the more intelligent debator's will spend the bulk of their time. It's win-win. If the better debator's are spending the bulk of their time elsewhere than the children joining this site will feel more comfortable here (as a result of not being challenged) and stick around, creating a bigger user base and more steady income stream.

If this happens then edeb8 will get a lot of the same problems that DDO has in the future. Doesn't solve the problem

Let me stop you right there. Edeb8 has no focus on revenue, and has a strong focus on improving debates, with exactly the opposite incentives to juggle. I should know. "improve the debate and forums sections" - your favored solution - occupies like 75% of my spare time for edeb8.

Misinterpreting what I'm saying. A focus on revenue isn't causing the problem: getting trolls is a pretty general problem for the internet. I'm saying that Juggle is mishandling the problem, and by doing so killing the site. If we all just leave DDO and come to edeb8, there's no guarantee that the trolls also don't just follow us over and create a lot of the same issues to resolve.

Trolls won't follow to edeb8 until edeb8 becomes big enough. Of course, if everyone left and went over there, it would substantially grow in size, perhaps to the point of attracting attention.

On a semi side note, for any site trying to survive as something other than a social hangout, a steady stream of new members is a requirement. New members bring new perspectives and occasionally new ideas. Without new members, even the highest quality posters end up getting bored and either move on or only discuss social things.

Exactly. We just aren't getting enough of them anymore, and until we make the necessary changes to warrant attracting their attention back to this site, they won't come back quickly enough.

This policy is part of that. It is one thing to attract new members and a different to maintain them. A new, potentially good member has no energy vested into DDO, so if they are greeted by insults, why should they stick it out? They'll just move along to somewhere else. Of course, the policy is not the be all end all solution, but it is a key part.

Lets be honest here: has anyone actually been greeted with insults?

Moreover, it's not the insults that are driving newer members away, rather just the lack of content making it worthwhile to stick around for. Creating more content like this is what we need to be doing. Forcing behavior onto site members, therefore, is exactly the wrong thing to be doing.

The insults are definitely a factor. We get reports almost daily of a member that is being insulted in their first or second debate, either in the debate or in the comment section.

Additionally, as you say that the trolls are outweighing the good members, the new policy helps to give us a tool to combat trolls to weed them out and keep just the good members. DDO has always, even before I joined, had tens of thousands of "members". It has always been filled with one and dones, and none and dones. The flood of low quality has always been present.



You mentioned that after the AnCap exodus that there were members to pick up the slack, but of the "high quality" posters that have maintained recently, how many are actually from before that? Most of them are new members that came after with new ideas and new perspectives. It is the inflow of new members, that while most don't stay or don't do anything of high quality, will bring in the occasional gem.

Like I said, yes. We just aren't getting enough of them to counter-balance the number of trolls we get and because of it any kind of intellectual quality this site has is dying. We need to revamp the part of the site that actually brings in quality members (i.e. the debate and forums section) in order to attract them.
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TheGreatAndPowerful
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4/7/2014 8:57:31 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/7/2014 8:22:46 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 4/7/2014 6:29:05 AM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
At 4/7/2014 4:24:23 AM, Zaradi wrote:

The policy's overall goal is simple: to make DDO a more open place for intelligent discussion, and to reduce the amount of flame that happens in threads by removing people's ability to insult without getting banned.

No it isn't. The new policy's overall goal is to make life easier for moderators. They want to reduce the complaints going their way and reduce liability on themselves. Don't kid yourself.

Do you really think that airmax or Ore actually care whether someone's feelings get hurt? No, they care about such things only to the degree it creates problems for them.

The rest of your post, I agree with 100%

Probably shouldn't be too surprising but this is actually incorrect. If the goal was to reduce the workload we wouldn't be pushing to have the opinions and polls fall under the same moderation umbrella. What we would do is stop moderating and go back to being regular members.

But then how would you win pointless forum games?