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Grammar and improper use of a noun

medv4380
Posts: 200
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4/14/2014 6:13:47 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I have, what I think, is an odd grammar question.

Is the improper use of a noun not considered improper grammar?

I'm not claiming to have good grammar. Part of the reason I'm on this site is to improve that part of my life. However, in one of my recent debates my opponent flipped to calling me Con through an entire round. It did make reading the argument difficult, and my opponent did apologize, but still. He clearly didn't proof his work, and what grammar error could I have made to warrant these comment.

"but I'm giving S/G to Con since it was slightly better "
"Con definitely had much better S&G."
"Spelling and grammar to Con because of formatting his arguments."
"Con had better grammar."
bladerunner060
Posts: 7,126
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4/14/2014 6:27:06 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/14/2014 6:13:47 PM, medv4380 wrote:
I have, what I think, is an odd grammar question.

Is the improper use of a noun not considered improper grammar?

I'm not claiming to have good grammar. Part of the reason I'm on this site is to improve that part of my life. However, in one of my recent debates my opponent flipped to calling me Con through an entire round. It did make reading the argument difficult, and my opponent did apologize, but still. He clearly didn't proof his work, and what grammar error could I have made to warrant these comment.

"but I'm giving S/G to Con since it was slightly better "
"Con definitely had much better S&G."
"Spelling and grammar to Con because of formatting his arguments."
"Con had better grammar."

Which debate?

To the point of your question though: No, it wouldn't be improper grammar. Grammar is sentence structure--if the sentence is still structured correctly, an incorrect piece of information doesn't make it ungrammatical.

"The sky is green." is a grammatically correct sentence. If the sky is not green, however, it's still wrong.

It could fall under "spelling", since calling Pro Con is to misspell Pro. Also, the S&G point is often applied a bit more broadly, so that it's more of a "Spelling, Grammmar, and formatting" point (whether that should be the case is, of course, a matter of debate...).

Have you asked the voters in question what it was that made them vote that way?
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rross
Posts: 2,772
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4/14/2014 6:38:45 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/14/2014 6:13:47 PM, medv4380 wrote:
I have, what I think, is an odd grammar question.

Is the improper use of a noun not considered improper grammar?

I'm not claiming to have good grammar. Part of the reason I'm on this site is to improve that part of my life. However, in one of my recent debates my opponent flipped to calling me Con through an entire round. It did make reading the argument difficult, and my opponent did apologize, but still. He clearly didn't proof his work, and what grammar error could I have made to warrant these comment.

"but I'm giving S/G to Con since it was slightly better "
"Con definitely had much better S&G."
"Spelling and grammar to Con because of formatting his arguments."
"Con had better grammar."

I think you mean this debate:

http://www.debate.org...

Just glancing over it, and I can see a lot of grammar errors.

eg.

After all the basis of evolution is propagate ones genes successfully for the next generation.

should be 'to propagate' or 'the propagation of'

However, this is only the case when you look at evolution as only affecting individual, and not a group, evolution.

Should be 'as only affecting the individual and not the group' or maybe 'when you look at evolution at the individual and not at the group level'.

It is to the queens evolutionary advantage

Should be 'queen's'.

Anyway, there's a lot, and you use too many commas.

Sorry - I really don't mean to be critical. But you did ask.
rross
Posts: 2,772
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4/14/2014 6:41:40 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/14/2014 6:40:12 PM, rross wrote:
Ooh. Just saw this

"Lets take a probably situation a family might experience. "

Should be 'probable'.

Should be 'Let's'.
NiqashMotawadi3
Posts: 1,895
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4/14/2014 8:49:40 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
1- Join an online chatroom with native speakers.

2- Mimic the native speakers by stealing their common phrases and expressions.

3- Inform them to correct you if you make a stylistic oddity or a grammatical error.

4- Go back to (1), until more than five new members falsely assume you're a native speaker.

5- Go buy your mother Hot Sauce from the shop, but never buy a Medabot.
ESocialBookworm
Posts: 14,361
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4/14/2014 8:53:48 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/14/2014 8:49:40 PM, NiqashMotawadi3 wrote:
1- Join an online chatroom with native speakers.

2- Mimic the native speakers by stealing their common phrases and expressions.

3- Inform them to correct you if you make a stylistic oddity or a grammatical error.

4- Go back to (1), until more than five new members falsely assume you're a native speaker.

5- Go buy your mother Hot Sauce from the shop, but never buy a Medabot.

lol
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medv4380
Posts: 200
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4/15/2014 7:50:14 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/14/2014 6:27:06 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 4/14/2014 6:13:47 PM, medv4380 wrote:
I have, what I think, is an odd grammar question.

Is the improper use of a noun not considered improper grammar?


Have you asked the voters in question what it was that made them vote that way?

Most of the people don't so don't accept private messages, and I'd rather not argue about such a point in the debates comments. I wouldn't even be ensured the people in question would be reading the comments anyway.

This is the debate
http://www.debate.org...

I'm not surprised I didn't get any S&G points. I'm actually trying to work on improving my proofing skills, but it's the awarding of them to my opponent with such a glaring error that actually impedes reading the argument. That, and the comments tending towards star performance for my opponents S&G seem off given that mistake.
Defro
Posts: 847
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4/15/2014 8:04:55 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/15/2014 7:50:14 AM, medv4380 wrote:
At 4/14/2014 6:27:06 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 4/14/2014 6:13:47 PM, medv4380 wrote:
I have, what I think, is an odd grammar question.

Is the improper use of a noun not considered improper grammar?


Have you asked the voters in question what it was that made them vote that way?

Most of the people don't so don't accept private messages, and I'd rather not argue about such a point in the debates comments. I wouldn't even be ensured the people in question would be reading the comments anyway.

This is the debate
http://www.debate.org...

I'm not surprised I didn't get any S&G points. I'm actually trying to work on improving my proofing skills, but it's the awarding of them to my opponent with such a glaring error that actually impedes reading the argument. That, and the comments tending towards star performance for my opponents S&G seem off given that mistake.

My error was calling you Con when you were Pro. That is not a spelling or grammar error.

I don't know how people generally vote S&G, but for me, I only give someone points in S&G if their contender's S&G errors were very noticeable.

Your use of diction was good, but if good diction is combined with bad grammar, it is very hard for readers to understand. I had to reread some of your sentences over and over.
medv4380
Posts: 200
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4/15/2014 9:50:46 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/15/2014 8:04:55 AM, Defro wrote:

Your use of diction was good, but if good diction is combined with bad grammar, it is very hard for readers to understand. I had to reread some of your sentences over and over.

I've had several people read the debate in person because I wanted their feedback on my argument, and each one complained that your flipping of pro to con caused them to be confused, and had to reread a significant portion to make sure they hadn't made a mistake in reading. Your error is as egregious as any other spelling, and grammar error.
Defro
Posts: 847
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4/15/2014 10:52:16 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/15/2014 9:50:46 AM, medv4380 wrote:
At 4/15/2014 8:04:55 AM, Defro wrote:

Your use of diction was good, but if good diction is combined with bad grammar, it is very hard for readers to understand. I had to reread some of your sentences over and over.

I've had several people read the debate in person because I wanted their feedback on my argument, and each one complained that your flipping of pro to con caused them to be confused, and had to reread a significant portion to make sure they hadn't made a mistake in reading. Your error is as egregious as any other spelling, and grammar error.

Ok.

It still wouldn't be under the category of spelling and grammar though.
medv4380
Posts: 200
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4/15/2014 2:51:30 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/15/2014 10:52:16 AM, Defro wrote:
At 4/15/2014 9:50:46 AM, medv4380 wrote:
At 4/15/2014 8:04:55 AM, Defro wrote:

Your use of diction was good, but if good diction is combined with bad grammar, it is very hard for readers to understand. I had to reread some of your sentences over and over.

I've had several people read the debate in person because I wanted their feedback on my argument, and each one complained that your flipping of pro to con caused them to be confused, and had to reread a significant portion to make sure they hadn't made a mistake in reading. Your error is as egregious as any other spelling, and grammar error.


Ok.

It still wouldn't be under the category of spelling and grammar though.

How is spelling Pro as Con not a spelling error?
Also, given the Orientation sticky about Spelling and Grammar. How does making it hard to read not qualify as the spelling, and grammar point?

Who had better spelling and grammar?(1 Point)
Which debater, on balance, took the time to insure their writing was easy to read with proper spelling, grammar, and punctuation?
http://www.debate.org...
RoyLatham
Posts: 4,488
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4/15/2014 11:14:30 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/14/2014 6:13:47 PM, medv4380 wrote:

I think the spelling and grammar category in a debate ought to include anything that makes the debaters argument difficult to follow because of unconventional usage. That includes bizarre formatting, punctuation, and unconventional usage. However, minor errors ought to be overlooked. The test is whether they rise to the level of making the argument difficult to understand.

"but I'm giving S/G to Con since it was slightly better "
> "but I'm giving S/G to Con since his was slightly better "

"Con definitely had much better S&G."
> okay

"Spelling and grammar to Con because of formatting his arguments."
> "Spelling and Grammar to Con because his formatting was better."

"Con had better grammar."
> okay

There is a modern tendency to use nouns as verbs, e.g. "text" meaning "to send as a text message." The Japanese seem to especially like to make verbs from nouns, per "Let's kiosk."
bladerunner060
Posts: 7,126
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4/16/2014 2:06:26 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/15/2014 7:50:14 AM, medv4380 wrote:
At 4/14/2014 6:27:06 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 4/14/2014 6:13:47 PM, medv4380 wrote:
I have, what I think, is an odd grammar question.

Is the improper use of a noun not considered improper grammar?


Have you asked the voters in question what it was that made them vote that way?

Most of the people don't so don't accept private messages, and I'd rather not argue about such a point in the debates comments. I wouldn't even be ensured the people in question would be reading the comments anyway.

This is the debate
http://www.debate.org...

I'm not surprised I didn't get any S&G points. I'm actually trying to work on improving my proofing skills, but it's the awarding of them to my opponent with such a glaring error that actually impedes reading the argument. That, and the comments tending towards star performance for my opponents S&G seem off given that mistake.

An error like swapping Pro for Con is kinda mundane--it happens. It does require rereading sometimes. In this case, it was done in one round, and was admitted to by Con in the final round. I wouldn't have scored against it, myself. Your errors were more numerous, and lacked consistency. Whereas Con made one error, repeatedly, you made a wide range of arbitrary errors. I can see why that would be scored. I probably wouldn't have, but that's me--opinions vary.

Very few people have perfect S&G. So it's almost always a matter of comparison. In this case, it seems voters felt your errors washed out his, and were sufficient to justify scoring against you.
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