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Sometimes 10,000characters is still too short

SNP1
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4/28/2014 12:34:48 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I wish to do more debates about if Jesus existed or not, but on the one that I did 10,000 characters was not enough to give an in depth analysis of the available information.

http://www.debate.org...

I understand why the highest you can go to is 10,000 characters, I just wish that we could start debates with more characters that that.
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Sswdwm
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4/28/2014 12:49:28 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/28/2014 12:34:48 PM, SNP1 wrote:
I wish to do more debates about if Jesus existed or not, but on the one that I did 10,000 characters was not enough to give an in depth analysis of the available information.

http://www.debate.org...

I understand why the highest you can go to is 10,000 characters, I just wish that we could start debates with more characters that that.

They used to... And after reading this debate (http://www.debate.org...) as well as some full weight 5 rounders (5x2x10,000 =100,000), I'm glad there is a limit...

I think I've set myself a policy now to try to stick to 3 rounders, as voters just get bored if it's a tl; dr
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SNP1
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4/28/2014 12:54:56 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/28/2014 12:49:28 PM, Sswdwm wrote:
At 4/28/2014 12:34:48 PM, SNP1 wrote:
I wish to do more debates about if Jesus existed or not, but on the one that I did 10,000 characters was not enough to give an in depth analysis of the available information.

http://www.debate.org...

I understand why the highest you can go to is 10,000 characters, I just wish that we could start debates with more characters that that.

They used to... And after reading this debate (http://www.debate.org...) as well as some full weight 5 rounders (5x2x10,000 =100,000), I'm glad there is a limit...

I think I've set myself a policy now to try to stick to 3 rounders, as voters just get bored if it's a tl; dr

As I said, I understand it, I just wish that on certain debates that I could use more characters.
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CJKAllstar
Posts: 408
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4/28/2014 1:29:27 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/28/2014 12:34:48 PM, SNP1 wrote:
I wish to do more debates about if Jesus existed or not, but on the one that I did 10,000 characters was not enough to give an in depth analysis of the available information.

http://www.debate.org...

I understand why the highest you can go to is 10,000 characters, I just wish that we could start debates with more characters that that.

I know what you mean. My debate with Mikal, I had to post sources on my profile and shorten my argument. I do think it should be extended at least to 15,000.
"Political language... is designed to make lies sound truthful and murder respectable, and to give an appearance of solidity to pure wind." - George Orwell
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4/28/2014 1:32:34 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/28/2014 1:29:27 PM, CJKAllstar wrote:
At 4/28/2014 12:34:48 PM, SNP1 wrote:
I wish to do more debates about if Jesus existed or not, but on the one that I did 10,000 characters was not enough to give an in depth analysis of the available information.

http://www.debate.org...

I understand why the highest you can go to is 10,000 characters, I just wish that we could start debates with more characters that that.

I know what you mean. My debate with Mikal, I had to post sources on my profile and shorten my argument. I do think it should be extended at least to 15,000.

That would be EXTREMELY helpful. 15,000 is probably the best balance (I was thinking 20,000, but that might be too much). It took me 3 rounds to get my points across in that debate, but I accept the first round was to set it up, that is still 2 rounds where rebuttals are near impossible and I was unable to even post the rules in my first round.
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donald.keller
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4/28/2014 1:43:54 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I feel like we could try to fix the issue without running into the other issue... 10,000 sometimes isn't long enough, and more than 10,000 is often too long.

Here is my proposal... Make sources appear separate of the character count. In any good debate, sources waste a lot of space. I know when debating, it's never the arguments that go over the character count, it's my sources. If sources and links would appear as a pop up (someone, I thing it might have been Danielle, proposed that.) Like how Wikipedia does it's sources.

You don't make debates longer, but you do save more character space for the actual arguments.
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CJKAllstar
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4/28/2014 1:49:27 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/28/2014 1:43:54 PM, donald.keller wrote:
I feel like we could try to fix the issue without running into the other issue... 10,000 sometimes isn't long enough, and more than 10,000 is often too long.

Here is my proposal... Make sources appear separate of the character count. In any good debate, sources waste a lot of space. I know when debating, it's never the arguments that go over the character count, it's my sources. If sources and links would appear as a pop up (someone, I thing it might have been Danielle, proposed that.) Like how Wikipedia does it's sources.

You don't make debates longer, but you do save more character space for the actual arguments.

That would be a brilliant idea, but I have a feeling it is easy to be abused. If you just have a box for sources, which are most likely going to be very large in size, that just leaves people extra space for arguments. It is going to be hard to create a system which cannot be abused yet still provides space for sources and autonomy to put sources in the way you want to.
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donald.keller
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4/28/2014 1:51:37 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/28/2014 1:49:27 PM, CJKAllstar wrote:
At 4/28/2014 1:43:54 PM, donald.keller wrote:
I feel like we could try to fix the issue without running into the other issue... 10,000 sometimes isn't long enough, and more than 10,000 is often too long.

Here is my proposal... Make sources appear separate of the character count. In any good debate, sources waste a lot of space. I know when debating, it's never the arguments that go over the character count, it's my sources. If sources and links would appear as a pop up (someone, I thing it might have been Danielle, proposed that.) Like how Wikipedia does it's sources.

You don't make debates longer, but you do save more character space for the actual arguments.

That would be a brilliant idea, but I have a feeling it is easy to be abused. If you just have a box for sources, which are most likely going to be very large in size, that just leaves people extra space for arguments. It is going to be hard to create a system which cannot be abused yet still provides space for sources and autonomy to put sources in the way you want to.

I was saying like a popup where you hover your mouse over the number and a little box appears with the source for that number.

But if it were abused, voters would destroy you...
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CJKAllstar
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4/28/2014 1:52:15 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/28/2014 1:51:37 PM, donald.keller wrote:
At 4/28/2014 1:49:27 PM, CJKAllstar wrote:
At 4/28/2014 1:43:54 PM, donald.keller wrote:
I feel like we could try to fix the issue without running into the other issue... 10,000 sometimes isn't long enough, and more than 10,000 is often too long.

Here is my proposal... Make sources appear separate of the character count. In any good debate, sources waste a lot of space. I know when debating, it's never the arguments that go over the character count, it's my sources. If sources and links would appear as a pop up (someone, I thing it might have been Danielle, proposed that.) Like how Wikipedia does it's sources.

You don't make debates longer, but you do save more character space for the actual arguments.

That would be a brilliant idea, but I have a feeling it is easy to be abused. If you just have a box for sources, which are most likely going to be very large in size, that just leaves people extra space for arguments. It is going to be hard to create a system which cannot be abused yet still provides space for sources and autonomy to put sources in the way you want to.

I was saying like a popup where you hover your mouse over the number and a little box appears with the source for that number.

But if it were abused, voters would destroy you...

Oh, I see what you mean. That could work...
"Political language... is designed to make lies sound truthful and murder respectable, and to give an appearance of solidity to pure wind." - George Orwell
Jifpop09
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4/28/2014 1:54:48 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/28/2014 12:34:48 PM, SNP1 wrote:
I wish to do more debates about if Jesus existed or not, but on the one that I did 10,000 characters was not enough to give an in depth analysis of the available information.

http://www.debate.org...

I understand why the highest you can go to is 10,000 characters, I just wish that we could start debates with more characters that that.

I often fill the character limit as well. Waning though, you are less likely to get votes if you keep maxing out the characters. You can easily simplify 20,000 characters into 4,000 if you give it enough thought.
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SNP1
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4/28/2014 2:09:38 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/28/2014 1:54:48 PM, Jifpop09 wrote:
At 4/28/2014 12:34:48 PM, SNP1 wrote:
I wish to do more debates about if Jesus existed or not, but on the one that I did 10,000 characters was not enough to give an in depth analysis of the available information.

http://www.debate.org...

I understand why the highest you can go to is 10,000 characters, I just wish that we could start debates with more characters that that.

I often fill the character limit as well. Waning though, you are less likely to get votes if you keep maxing out the characters. You can easily simplify 20,000 characters into 4,000 if you give it enough thought.

I struggle with that, especially when trying to do an in depth analysis.
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NiqashMotawadi3
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4/28/2014 2:20:38 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
10,000 seems short to me when I'm in a very technical debate and I want the readers to understand my points through examples and layman explanations. So I'd say 12,000 would be a good balanced Max character space.
9spaceking
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4/28/2014 2:30:46 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
lol yeah, but other times you simply are too wordy. One example is the book Gadsby, which, in order to escape using any word containing the letter "e", uses a circumlocutory tone throughout, which gets really annoying.
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Intrepid
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4/28/2014 2:39:51 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
All I can say is if you can't say what you want to say in 10,000 characters, it's probably not worth saying.
donald.keller
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4/28/2014 2:48:15 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/28/2014 2:39:51 PM, Intrepid wrote:
All I can say is if you can't say what you want to say in 10,000 characters, it's probably not worth saying.

And all I can say is that that isn't true.
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Intrepid
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4/28/2014 2:52:43 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/28/2014 2:48:15 PM, donald.keller wrote:
At 4/28/2014 2:39:51 PM, Intrepid wrote:
All I can say is if you can't say what you want to say in 10,000 characters, it's probably not worth saying.

And all I can say is that that isn't true.

For a debate it certainly is.
donald.keller
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4/28/2014 2:58:23 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/28/2014 2:52:43 PM, Intrepid wrote:
At 4/28/2014 2:48:15 PM, donald.keller wrote:
At 4/28/2014 2:39:51 PM, Intrepid wrote:
All I can say is if you can't say what you want to say in 10,000 characters, it's probably not worth saying.

And all I can say is that that isn't true.

For a debate it certainly is.

Especially not in a debate. Any debate can stretch across many more points than can be fluently discussed in only 10,000 characters. Universal Healthcare, for example, can stretch across so many different points and arguments that you can never have a debate on here that accounts for it all.
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Intrepid
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4/28/2014 3:21:51 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/28/2014 2:58:23 PM, donald.keller wrote:
At 4/28/2014 2:52:43 PM, Intrepid wrote:
At 4/28/2014 2:48:15 PM, donald.keller wrote:
At 4/28/2014 2:39:51 PM, Intrepid wrote:
All I can say is if you can't say what you want to say in 10,000 characters, it's probably not worth saying.

And all I can say is that that isn't true.

For a debate it certainly is.

Especially not in a debate. Any debate can stretch across many more points than can be fluently discussed in only 10,000 characters. Universal Healthcare, for example, can stretch across so many different points and arguments that you can never have a debate on here that accounts for it all.

Users will hardly read an 8K character debate. Anything over is ridiculous and is probably simply too wordy. Summarize and focus on key points. That is one of the many skills of debating.
donald.keller
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4/28/2014 3:56:02 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/28/2014 3:21:51 PM, Intrepid wrote:
At 4/28/2014 2:58:23 PM, donald.keller wrote:
At 4/28/2014 2:52:43 PM, Intrepid wrote:
At 4/28/2014 2:48:15 PM, donald.keller wrote:
At 4/28/2014 2:39:51 PM, Intrepid wrote:
All I can say is if you can't say what you want to say in 10,000 characters, it's probably not worth saying.

And all I can say is that that isn't true.

For a debate it certainly is.

Especially not in a debate. Any debate can stretch across many more points than can be fluently discussed in only 10,000 characters. Universal Healthcare, for example, can stretch across so many different points and arguments that you can never have a debate on here that accounts for it all.

Users will hardly read an 8K character debate. Anything over is ridiculous and is probably simply too wordy. Summarize and focus on key points. That is one of the many skills of debating.

Just because people don't want to read 8k+ doesn't mean it's not important to the debate. Your opponent has 5 points, and it takes 2k to tackle each, that doesn't mean you can go to 8k and drop the 5th point...
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Juan_Pablo
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4/28/2014 4:08:38 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I agree. Sometimes 10,000 characters still isn't enough. On occasion I've found my editing my arguments to get the best parts to fit and not exceed the character limits. But this is something you're going to encounter once you get to college. Professors will frequently place a word limit on their written assignments because of time restraints. This is also true if you're planning to publish a paper in an educative journal. Letters cost the publisher money, so you need to state things effectively yet concisely.
ClassicRobert
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4/28/2014 4:38:51 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Just make it so you can hyperlink and the entire need for a sources section goes away.
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ClassicRobert
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4/28/2014 4:40:13 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
But to the OP... While I don't like placing restrictions on what debaters can restrict to, I think you'd have a lot of trouble getting people to vote on those debates.
Debate me: Economic decision theory should be adjusted to include higher-order preferences for non-normative purposes http://www.debate.org...

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4/28/2014 5:51:59 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
If you can't state it simply you probably don't know enough about it to explain it.
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4/28/2014 6:17:41 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/28/2014 3:56:02 PM, donald.keller wrote:
At 4/28/2014 3:21:51 PM, Intrepid wrote:
At 4/28/2014 2:58:23 PM, donald.keller wrote:
At 4/28/2014 2:52:43 PM, Intrepid wrote:
At 4/28/2014 2:48:15 PM, donald.keller wrote:
At 4/28/2014 2:39:51 PM, Intrepid wrote:
All I can say is if you can't say what you want to say in 10,000 characters, it's probably not worth saying.

And all I can say is that that isn't true.

For a debate it certainly is.

Especially not in a debate. Any debate can stretch across many more points than can be fluently discussed in only 10,000 characters. Universal Healthcare, for example, can stretch across so many different points and arguments that you can never have a debate on here that accounts for it all.

Users will hardly read an 8K character debate. Anything over is ridiculous and is probably simply too wordy. Summarize and focus on key points. That is one of the many skills of debating.

Just because people don't want to read 8k+ doesn't mean it's not important to the debate. Your opponent has 5 points, and it takes 2k to tackle each, that doesn't mean you can go to 8k and drop the 5th point...

That's exactly how a good debater debates. Anyways you should take as many characters in your response as your opponent in their argument. Debate is about being able to argue with in certain perimeters, whether that be a time limit or a character limit. If you want a debate without perimeters try having discussion with people in the forums or in pms.
donald.keller
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4/28/2014 6:25:02 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/28/2014 6:17:41 PM, Intrepid wrote:
At 4/28/2014 3:56:02 PM, donald.keller wrote:
At 4/28/2014 3:21:51 PM, Intrepid wrote:
At 4/28/2014 2:58:23 PM, donald.keller wrote:
At 4/28/2014 2:52:43 PM, Intrepid wrote:
At 4/28/2014 2:48:15 PM, donald.keller wrote:
At 4/28/2014 2:39:51 PM, Intrepid wrote:
All I can say is if you can't say what you want to say in 10,000 characters, it's probably not worth saying.

And all I can say is that that isn't true.

For a debate it certainly is.

Especially not in a debate. Any debate can stretch across many more points than can be fluently discussed in only 10,000 characters. Universal Healthcare, for example, can stretch across so many different points and arguments that you can never have a debate on here that accounts for it all.

Users will hardly read an 8K character debate. Anything over is ridiculous and is probably simply too wordy. Summarize and focus on key points. That is one of the many skills of debating.

Just because people don't want to read 8k+ doesn't mean it's not important to the debate. Your opponent has 5 points, and it takes 2k to tackle each, that doesn't mean you can go to 8k and drop the 5th point...

That's exactly how a good debater debates. Anyways you should take as many characters in your response as your opponent in their argument. Debate is about being able to argue with in certain perimeters, whether that be a time limit or a character limit. If you want a debate without perimeters try having discussion with people in the forums or in pms.

1) PMs aren't for hosting full scale debates... The Debate/Forum function is for that. People come here to have a fair debate that people can observe and vote on fairly (unlike elsewhere on the internet.) Not host a full 100,000+ character debate that no one will ever see...

2) When you put perimeters on a debate, you restrict the very prime functions of a debate. The site doesn't have restrictions because a 'good debate' needs them. They have restrictions for practical purposes relating to the site's own limitations.

A good debate starts with having the ability to give each argument you have, with as much focus on each as they need. A 10k character limit doesn't often impede on that, but from time to time it does.
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Intrepid
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4/28/2014 7:30:36 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/28/2014 6:25:02 PM, donald.keller wrote:
At 4/28/2014 6:17:41 PM, Intrepid wrote:
At 4/28/2014 3:56:02 PM, donald.keller wrote:
At 4/28/2014 3:21:51 PM, Intrepid wrote:
At 4/28/2014 2:58:23 PM, donald.keller wrote:
At 4/28/2014 2:52:43 PM, Intrepid wrote:
At 4/28/2014 2:48:15 PM, donald.keller wrote:
At 4/28/2014 2:39:51 PM, Intrepid wrote:
All I can say is if you can't say what you want to say in 10,000 characters, it's probably not worth saying.

And all I can say is that that isn't true.

For a debate it certainly is.

Especially not in a debate. Any debate can stretch across many more points than can be fluently discussed in only 10,000 characters. Universal Healthcare, for example, can stretch across so many different points and arguments that you can never have a debate on here that accounts for it all.

Users will hardly read an 8K character debate. Anything over is ridiculous and is probably simply too wordy. Summarize and focus on key points. That is one of the many skills of debating.

Just because people don't want to read 8k+ doesn't mean it's not important to the debate. Your opponent has 5 points, and it takes 2k to tackle each, that doesn't mean you can go to 8k and drop the 5th point...

That's exactly how a good debater debates. Anyways you should take as many characters in your response as your opponent in their argument. Debate is about being able to argue with in certain perimeters, whether that be a time limit or a character limit. If you want a debate without perimeters try having discussion with people in the forums or in pms.

1) PMs aren't for hosting full scale debates... The Debate/Forum function is for that. People come here to have a fair debate that people can observe and vote on fairly (unlike elsewhere on the internet.) Not host a full 100,000+ character debate that no

No but they can be used for long detailed discussions like what you are talking about.

2) When you put perimeters on a debate, you restrict the very prime functions of a debate. The site doesn't have restrictions because a 'good debate' needs them. They have restrictions for practical purposes relating to the site's own limitations.

All debate has restrictions. That is a part of debaters. Good debaters know to summarize and focus on key arguments, essentially cutting away everything unnecessary.

A good debate starts with having the ability to give each argument you have, with as much focus on each as they need. A 10k character limit doesn't often impede on that, but from time to time it does.