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DDO, Y U NO 2v2

ArcTImes
Posts: 294
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5/12/2014 11:08:36 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
I have a question. I saw some topics about it, but most of them were very unpopular.

Why DDO does not have team styled debates?
Like 2v2 or 4v4. Was it possible in the past? Was it discussed?
I think it would be awesome if we had this possibility.
bladerunner060
Posts: 7,126
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5/12/2014 11:27:45 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/12/2014 11:08:36 AM, ArcTImes wrote:
I have a question. I saw some topics about it, but most of them were very unpopular.

Why DDO does not have team styled debates?
Like 2v2 or 4v4. Was it possible in the past? Was it discussed?
I think it would be awesome if we had this possibility.

It's been something that's been asked for multiple times in the past. Setting it up would require a good deal of effort on Juggle's part. And for them to do that, they have to be pretty sure it'll be an oft-used feature.

But while team debates sound nice, there's some real question whether it's a feature that really will get used enough to justify putting the work into it.

The problem with that is there IS a workaround currently. There are a few "team debate" User IDs. Though it's obviously clumsier than if the system were set up to actually do it, at the same time the option is available and, when it's been attempted in the past, it has largely fizzled due to lack of participation.

I've been involved in several of these attempts.

Eventually it might be implemented, I think, but considering that it has generally fizzled, it's unlikely to be a priority for our hosts.

If you're very interested in making a go of it again, you can contact airmax or myself about it, though airmax is the mod and would be able to approve any new plan you might want to implement regarding it--I've got access to the Team Debate logins that currently exist, but so does he.
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Actionsspeak
Posts: 185
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5/12/2014 11:54:53 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
We could boycott debates and voting on debates until juggle guarantees us this feature is coming, I would love to see it and would definetely use it.
bladerunner060
Posts: 7,126
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5/12/2014 12:06:09 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/12/2014 11:54:53 AM, Actionsspeak wrote:
We could boycott debates and voting on debates until juggle guarantees us this feature is coming, I would love to see it and would definetely use it.

I don't think a boycott is by any means necessary. Set one up, follow through on it. If people used the workaround we presently have, I believe Juggle would prioritize the implementation.
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Actionsspeak
Posts: 185
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5/12/2014 12:14:15 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/12/2014 12:06:09 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 5/12/2014 11:54:53 AM, Actionsspeak wrote:
We could boycott debates and voting on debates until juggle guarantees us this feature is coming, I would love to see it and would definetely use it.

I don't think a boycott is by any means necessary. Set one up, follow through on it. If people used the workaround we presently have, I believe Juggle would prioritize the implementation.

I can't until the DDO world cup ends for me, however i'm more than willing to participate the second the WC ends. I'm also unaware of the workaround you speak of, could you perhaps link it?
bladerunner060
Posts: 7,126
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5/12/2014 12:45:47 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/12/2014 12:14:15 PM, Actionsspeak wrote:
At 5/12/2014 12:06:09 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 5/12/2014 11:54:53 AM, Actionsspeak wrote:
We could boycott debates and voting on debates until juggle guarantees us this feature is coming, I would love to see it and would definetely use it.

I don't think a boycott is by any means necessary. Set one up, follow through on it. If people used the workaround we presently have, I believe Juggle would prioritize the implementation.

I can't until the DDO world cup ends for me, however i'm more than willing to participate the second the WC ends. I'm also unaware of the workaround you speak of, could you perhaps link it?

There isn't really a "link", but I can explain.

There are 2 ways it's currently done, AFAIK. One way I haven't been involved in is just that the "team captain" uses their own UID, but makes it clear they've conferred with their team in the debate itself. The downside of this is that it means the team captain has to deal with the consequences of the debate, and his or her team doesn't get the rewards if they DO win.

The "workaround" way I referred to is that there are user IDs which have been set up for team Debating. Team X and Team Y. You can contact myself or airmax about them if you want to use them.

The main downside of this workaround is that you don't get "credit" for wins or losses on your own account. Still, it allows you to create a debate and have team involvement.

There's oversight on this because it's technically multi-accounting, which is usually frowned upon. So this is an exception to the general rule, and airmax wants to make sure it doesn't get abused, which I think is perfectly reasonable.

And, just because this comes up it seems every time this workaround is mentioned: DON'T TRY TO MAKE YOUR OWN WITHOUT TALKING TO AIRMAX FIRST. Not that you would, necessarily, but it really bears repeating ad nauseam to make sure nobody does it. It can't be all "wild west" of multi-accounts, it causes mod headaches and is likely to result in Juggle's Official Annoyance.

If you don't like "Team X" and "Team Y" there's a good chance he'll let you set up another one. But you HAVE to talk to him first before doing that, or you've just made a multiaccount on your own, which again, is generally frowned upon.

I've been involved in 2 separate pushes for Team debates. The first time it was themed--I was optimistic that it would be as popular in use as it seems to be in folks's comments. I picked religion as the initial "theme" because I figured that it would be the most contentious and get the most involvement both in terms of participation and in terms of viewing/voting. A User for that Team was created. A second team of an opposing religious viewpoint created a User ID of its own (and, I believe, at least one other team that was "Waiting in the wings"). Everything wound up fizzling, though, and we never finished our first debate. Having to corral users got frustrating, and without the participation of multiple users, it would have just been the two captains debating under the auspices of a team. I gave up, eventually, as it seemed that it wasn't going anywhere despite my best efforts.

Some time later, rross indicated an interest in trying to pursue it again. She contacted airmax and was the one to actually create the Team X and Team Y user IDs. This was a more generic effort--just the creation OF a team, with no theming. Airmax asked if I was still willing to try, and of course I was (I'm always willing to try stuff!). That one actually completed a single debate (woo!), which is viewable here: http://www.debate.org...).

Unfortunately, that debate had some issues that I won't go into in depth, but which definitely made it a skosh problematic. And when we tried to do another, we stalled.

We made a public post trying to get involvement. We offered up that if someone else was willing to set up their own teams, we would be happy to just be the "go-through". That offer was taken up exactly once, and they never actually got out of the "PMing terms of debate" stage. For our part, rross and I had some difficulty coming up with something we sufficiently disagreed on and wanted to debate, and with getting more team-mates involved.

So that's the source of my pessimism on the subject. Almost everyone says they want team debates, but when it comes down to brass tacks, it seems like not a lot of people want to actually DO them. I'm still happy to try to get it goin'. Rross might still be interested, but I didn't want to speak for her. I don't think airmax is against it, he just has seen the efforts fizzle as much as I have (since he was kept in the loop for all of these). I know larz's site has them implemented, but I don't think any have actually been done, there, either. Maybe a couple, but not a lot and, while that site has a much smaller user base, the team debating thing was one of the first "pluses" to his site that he mentioned, so I would have thought that those really passionate and prepared would have done some.

But, like I said, if it's something you really want to do, PM airmax or myself (or possibly rross, like I said, I don't want to speak for her).
Assistant moderator to airmax1227. PM me with any questions or concerns!
ArcTImes
Posts: 294
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5/12/2014 3:24:42 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Well yeah, that's actually something i really want. And it's something I would use.
I understand what you say, but I also can understand why people is not using the workaround. It's kind of... difficult. I mean, it's more than what people actually do in DDO.
People do even more things that they thought they were going to do when they joined. I came for debates, but I usually go to the forums, use the polls and give my opinions on different topics. I didn't care about all those things when I joined, but they were here, they were easy to access. And this is important.

To use the workaround, I have to agree with other 3 people for a debate, then PM an admin for the accounts, then debate. If everything works fine, then we will have 1 debate that will not affect our real accounts.
I mean, I can do it, I can try, but I will not be surprised if that doesn't work. And I will not be surprised that if the thing was already implemented, people would be using it (at least more than the workaround).

The thing is that there is a lot of people here in DDO. I would not be asking for this feature if it would be different. I really got surprised by the amount of debates and people debating, commenting and voting.

I can try to get some people for some team debates with captains and main accounts, but it would be easier with the implementation. And I will probably try this after I finish all my debates.
Btw, I'm relatively new to this site, so I'm not familiar with the names. And English is not my first language so sometimes I think some names are verbs or adjectives.

Thanks for answering.
bladerunner060
Posts: 7,126
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5/12/2014 7:38:38 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/12/2014 3:24:42 PM, ArcTImes wrote:
Well yeah, that's actually something i really want. And it's something I would use.
I understand what you say, but I also can understand why people is not using the workaround. It's kind of... difficult. I mean, it's more than what people actually do in DDO.

Not necessarily--all the members have to do is PM the captain with their round. Yes, it's a PM rather than posting a round, but it's fundamentally similar in terms of effort.

People do even more things that they thought they were going to do when they joined. I came for debates, but I usually go to the forums, use the polls and give my opinions on different topics. I didn't care about all those things when I joined, but they were here, they were easy to access. And this is important.

To use the workaround, I have to agree with other 3 people for a debate, then PM an admin for the accounts, then debate. If everything works fine, then we will have 1 debate that will not affect our real accounts.
I mean, I can do it, I can try, but I will not be surprised if that doesn't work. And I will not be surprised that if the thing was already implemented, people would be using it (at least more than the workaround).

Which part, though, would be sufficiently different if it were implemented? Most users here don't care much about their stats, so I don't really think it's that. And PMing for the IDs isn't rocket surgery, so while the first debate would have hiccups, you as a captain would know more for the future.

I think it's the "getting 3 other people" part--and that part won't change with an implemented system.

The thing is that there is a lot of people here in DDO. I would not be asking for this feature if it would be different. I really got surprised by the amount of debates and people debating, commenting and voting.


I can try to get some people for some team debates with captains and main accounts, but it would be easier with the implementation. And I will probably try this after I finish all my debates.

Btw, I'm relatively new to this site, so I'm not familiar with the names. And English is not my first language so sometimes I think some names are verbs or adjectives.

No worries! airmax1227 is the moderator of this site. Often called airmax, or max. If there's another name that I confused with, let me know.

Thanks for answering.

On a side note, it's helpful if you "Reply & Quote", even if you delete all the quoted bits. That way, I'll get a notification that you replied to me. I mean, that assumes you WANT me to know you replied, I suppose...
Assistant moderator to airmax1227. PM me with any questions or concerns!
ArcTImes
Posts: 294
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5/12/2014 8:41:53 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Not necessarily--all the members have to do is PM the captain with their round. Yes, it's a PM rather than posting a round, but it's fundamentally similar in terms of effort.

Ok then, I will try to use it after I finish some of my debates.

Most users here don't care much about their stats

It's not only about stats. It can be also about the info in your account. When I check an account, It's cool to see every debate a person has participated in, and I would like everyone to see my debates. And sure, that could be only me, but not trying to give huge importance to stats.

I think it's the "getting 3 other people" part--and that part won't change with an implemented system.


Well, I always find debates where I agree with the instigator. They are very common. I don't think finding the first one would be difficult. In general 2v2 debates would be half of 1v1 debates.

On a side note, it's helpful if you "Reply & Quote", even if you delete all the quoted bits. That way, I'll get a notification that you replied to me. I mean, that assumes you WANT me to know you replied, I suppose...

Thanks for that. Now it makes sense that I only received notifications from you lol.
bladerunner060
Posts: 7,126
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5/12/2014 8:46:10 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/12/2014 8:41:53 PM, ArcTImes wrote:
Not necessarily--all the members have to do is PM the captain with their round. Yes, it's a PM rather than posting a round, but it's fundamentally similar in terms of effort.

Ok then, I will try to use it after I finish some of my debates.

Okie doke. Like I said, just message me or Airmax (or, hypothetically, rross, I just don't want to speak for her but I don't want to presumptively leave her out, either).
Assistant moderator to airmax1227. PM me with any questions or concerns!
Actionsspeak
Posts: 185
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5/14/2014 10:09:35 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/12/2014 12:45:47 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 5/12/2014 12:14:15 PM, Actionsspeak wrote:
At 5/12/2014 12:06:09 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 5/12/2014 11:54:53 AM, Actionsspeak wrote:
We could boycott debates and voting on debates until juggle guarantees us this feature is coming, I would love to see it and would definetely use it.

I don't think a boycott is by any means necessary. Set one up, follow through on it. If people used the workaround we presently have, I believe Juggle would prioritize the implementation.

I can't until the DDO world cup ends for me, however i'm more than willing to participate the second the WC ends. I'm also unaware of the workaround you speak of, could you perhaps link it?

There isn't really a "link", but I can explain.

There are 2 ways it's currently done, AFAIK. One way I haven't been involved in is just that the "team captain" uses their own UID, but makes it clear they've conferred with their team in the debate itself. The downside of this is that it means the team captain has to deal with the consequences of the debate, and his or her team doesn't get the rewards if they DO win.

The "workaround" way I referred to is that there are user IDs which have been set up for team Debating. Team X and Team Y. You can contact myself or airmax about them if you want to use them.

The main downside of this workaround is that you don't get "credit" for wins or losses on your own account. Still, it allows you to create a debate and have team involvement.

There's oversight on this because it's technically multi-accounting, which is usually frowned upon. So this is an exception to the general rule, and airmax wants to make sure it doesn't get abused, which I think is perfectly reasonable.

And, just because this comes up it seems every time this workaround is mentioned: DON'T TRY TO MAKE YOUR OWN WITHOUT TALKING TO AIRMAX FIRST. Not that you would, necessarily, but it really bears repeating ad nauseam to make sure nobody does it. It can't be all "wild west" of multi-accounts, it causes mod headaches and is likely to result in Juggle's Official Annoyance.

If you don't like "Team X" and "Team Y" there's a good chance he'll let you set up another one. But you HAVE to talk to him first before doing that, or you've just made a multiaccount on your own, which again, is generally frowned upon.

I've been involved in 2 separate pushes for Team debates. The first time it was themed--I was optimistic that it would be as popular in use as it seems to be in folks's comments. I picked religion as the initial "theme" because I figured that it would be the most contentious and get the most involvement both in terms of participation and in terms of viewing/voting. A User for that Team was created. A second team of an opposing religious viewpoint created a User ID of its own (and, I believe, at least one other team that was "Waiting in the wings"). Everything wound up fizzling, though, and we never finished our first debate. Having to corral users got frustrating, and without the participation of multiple users, it would have just been the two captains debating under the auspices of a team. I gave up, eventually, as it seemed that it wasn't going anywhere despite my best efforts.

Some time later, rross indicated an interest in trying to pursue it again. She contacted airmax and was the one to actually create the Team X and Team Y user IDs. This was a more generic effort--just the creation OF a team, with no theming. Airmax asked if I was still willing to try, and of course I was (I'm always willing to try stuff!). That one actually completed a single debate (woo!), which is viewable here: http://www.debate.org...).

Unfortunately, that debate had some issues that I won't go into in depth, but which definitely made it a skosh problematic. And when we tried to do another, we stalled.

We made a public post trying to get involvement. We offered up that if someone else was willing to set up their own teams, we would be happy to just be the "go-through". That offer was taken up exactly once, and they never actually got out of the "PMing terms of debate" stage. For our part, rross and I had some difficulty coming up with something we sufficiently disagreed on and wanted to debate, and with getting more team-mates involved.

So that's the source of my pessimism on the subject. Almost everyone says they want team debates, but when it comes down to brass tacks, it seems like not a lot of people want to actually DO them. I'm still happy to try to get it goin'. Rross might still be interested, but I didn't want to speak for her. I don't think airmax is against it, he just has seen the efforts fizzle as much as I have (since he was kept in the loop for all of these). I know larz's site has them implemented, but I don't think any have actually been done, there, either. Maybe a couple, but not a lot and, while that site has a much smaller user base, the team debating thing was one of the first "pluses" to his site that he mentioned, so I would have thought that those really passionate and prepared would have done some.

But, like I said, if it's something you really want to do, PM airmax or myself (or possibly rross, like I said, I don't want to speak for her).

Wow, the current workaround method really sucks well... After I finish the two debates i'm in right now it seems a debate boycott will come.