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The Instigator holds BOP

ChosenWolff
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6/16/2014 7:09:48 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
There were several debates I considered taking over the past few days, but denied do to edgy BOP. A lot of people get into the habit of making a resolution and listing themselves as "con". This is unnecessary and a hindrance.

I can't think of a single case where the con or pro position can't be reworded into an affirmative resolution. This "issue" has really upset me while doing debates.
How about NO elections?

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TN05
Posts: 4,492
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6/16/2014 7:58:05 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/16/2014 7:09:48 PM, ChosenWolff wrote:
There were several debates I considered taking over the past few days, but denied do to edgy BOP. A lot of people get into the habit of making a resolution and listing themselves as "con". This is unnecessary and a hindrance.

I can't think of a single case where the con or pro position can't be reworded into an affirmative resolution. This "issue" has really upset me while doing debates.

IMO the person who is taking an affirmative policy stance should take the BOP. If it is a comparison debate (ie. which is better) or other non-serious debate , BOP should be shared.
9spaceking
Posts: 4,213
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6/16/2014 7:58:13 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/16/2014 7:09:48 PM, ChosenWolff wrote:
There were several debates I considered taking over the past few days, but denied do to edgy BOP. A lot of people get into the habit of making a resolution and listing themselves as "con". This is unnecessary and a hindrance.

I can't think of a single case where the con or pro position can't be reworded into an affirmative resolution. This "issue" has really upset me while doing debates.

there is a single case....

No-One-Has-Ever-Been-Far-Even-as-Decided-to-Use-Even-Go-Want-to-Do-Look-More-Like.
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thett3
Posts: 14,371
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6/16/2014 8:01:12 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
People on DDO have a big hard on for BOP for no reason. All it generally means to have the BOP is that if at the end of the day I have *no* reason to favor either side I vote for the side that doesn't hold the BOP. How often does that happen?
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: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
Subutai
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6/16/2014 8:29:36 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/16/2014 7:09:48 PM, ChosenWolff wrote:
There were several debates I considered taking over the past few days, but denied do to edgy BOP. A lot of people get into the habit of making a resolution and listing themselves as "con". This is unnecessary and a hindrance.

I can't think of a single case where the con or pro position can't be reworded into an affirmative resolution. This "issue" has really upset me while doing debates.

I'm sure one of the debates you're referring to is my global warming debate, so let me explain my logic. In science, a hypothesis is incorrect until experimentation provides evidence for it. The person affirming a hypothesis, in this case that humans have been a significant cause of global warming, has the BoP to provide evidence for his claim. All the negator has to do is refute the evidence the affirmer provides; he can provide evidence against the claim, but it is not required.

It's not so much who instigates the debate, more so that it is who is affirming the resolution that has the BoP.
I'm becoming less defined as days go by, fading away, and well you might say, I'm losing focus, kinda drifting into the abstract in terms of how I see myself.
bladerunner060
Posts: 7,126
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6/16/2014 8:35:46 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/16/2014 8:01:12 PM, thett3 wrote:
People on DDO have a big hard on for BOP for no reason. All it generally means to have the BOP is that if at the end of the day I have *no* reason to favor either side I vote for the side that doesn't hold the BOP. How often does that happen?

A surprising amount of the time.
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thett3
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6/16/2014 8:37:49 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/16/2014 8:35:46 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 6/16/2014 8:01:12 PM, thett3 wrote:
People on DDO have a big hard on for BOP for no reason. All it generally means to have the BOP is that if at the end of the day I have *no* reason to favor either side I vote for the side that doesn't hold the BOP. How often does that happen?

A surprising amount of the time.

Not in the debates I've read, but I guess we all have differing opinions on what it means to have a reason to vote for either side.
DDO Vice President

#StandwithBossy

#UnbanTheMadman

#BetOnThett

"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
Mikal
Posts: 11,270
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6/16/2014 8:38:22 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/16/2014 8:37:49 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 6/16/2014 8:35:46 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 6/16/2014 8:01:12 PM, thett3 wrote:
People on DDO have a big hard on for BOP for no reason. All it generally means to have the BOP is that if at the end of the day I have *no* reason to favor either side I vote for the side that doesn't hold the BOP. How often does that happen?

A surprising amount of the time.

Not in the debates I've read, but I guess we all have differing opinions on what it means to have a reason to vote for either side.

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thett3
Posts: 14,371
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6/16/2014 8:40:47 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/16/2014 8:38:22 PM, Mikal wrote:
At 6/16/2014 8:37:49 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 6/16/2014 8:35:46 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 6/16/2014 8:01:12 PM, thett3 wrote:
People on DDO have a big hard on for BOP for no reason. All it generally means to have the BOP is that if at the end of the day I have *no* reason to favor either side I vote for the side that doesn't hold the BOP. How often does that happen?

A surprising amount of the time.

Not in the debates I've read, but I guess we all have differing opinions on what it means to have a reason to vote for either side.

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Haha I'll join soon
DDO Vice President

#StandwithBossy

#UnbanTheMadman

#BetOnThett

"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
bladerunner060
Posts: 7,126
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6/16/2014 9:02:34 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/16/2014 8:37:49 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 6/16/2014 8:35:46 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 6/16/2014 8:01:12 PM, thett3 wrote:
People on DDO have a big hard on for BOP for no reason. All it generally means to have the BOP is that if at the end of the day I have *no* reason to favor either side I vote for the side that doesn't hold the BOP. How often does that happen?

A surprising amount of the time.

Not in the debates I've read, but I guess we all have differing opinions on what it means to have a reason to vote for either side.

Well, in a debate "X is true", with the BoP on the affirmative, the negative doesn't even have to make a case of any kind, as long as the affirmative doens't uphold the resolution. So if their arguments are all terrible, all the opponent has to do is point that out, and they win. Meanwhile, if the Pro managed to shift BoP to CON, the opposite would be true.
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thett3
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6/16/2014 9:10:08 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/16/2014 9:02:34 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 6/16/2014 8:37:49 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 6/16/2014 8:35:46 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 6/16/2014 8:01:12 PM, thett3 wrote:
People on DDO have a big hard on for BOP for no reason. All it generally means to have the BOP is that if at the end of the day I have *no* reason to favor either side I vote for the side that doesn't hold the BOP. How often does that happen?

A surprising amount of the time.

Not in the debates I've read, but I guess we all have differing opinions on what it means to have a reason to vote for either side.

Well, in a debate "X is true", with the BoP on the affirmative, the negative doesn't even have to make a case of any kind, as long as the affirmative doens't uphold the resolution. So if their arguments are all terrible, all the opponent has to do is point that out, and they win. Meanwhile, if the Pro managed to shift BoP to CON, the opposite would be true.

Right. How often do you find a debate where Aff is so bad that there is literally *no* reason whatsoever to vote for them? Neg relying on Aff having the BOP is a terrible strategy because if I have no neg ground, I'll vote aff on even the weakest of impacts. How often have you voted on BOP? I don't recall ever voting on it on DDO.
DDO Vice President

#StandwithBossy

#UnbanTheMadman

#BetOnThett

"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
bladerunner060
Posts: 7,126
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6/16/2014 9:11:22 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/16/2014 9:10:08 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 6/16/2014 9:02:34 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 6/16/2014 8:37:49 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 6/16/2014 8:35:46 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 6/16/2014 8:01:12 PM, thett3 wrote:
People on DDO have a big hard on for BOP for no reason. All it generally means to have the BOP is that if at the end of the day I have *no* reason to favor either side I vote for the side that doesn't hold the BOP. How often does that happen?

A surprising amount of the time.

Not in the debates I've read, but I guess we all have differing opinions on what it means to have a reason to vote for either side.

Well, in a debate "X is true", with the BoP on the affirmative, the negative doesn't even have to make a case of any kind, as long as the affirmative doens't uphold the resolution. So if their arguments are all terrible, all the opponent has to do is point that out, and they win. Meanwhile, if the Pro managed to shift BoP to CON, the opposite would be true.

Right. How often do you find a debate where Aff is so bad that there is literally *no* reason whatsoever to vote for them? Neg relying on Aff having the BOP is a terrible strategy because if I have no neg ground, I'll vote aff on even the weakest of impacts. How often have you voted on BOP? I don't recall ever voting on it on DDO.

I have on numerous occasions. But I think you're primarily thinking of policy debate...I'm not.

I'm thinking more of the "X exists" debates and such.
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thett3
Posts: 14,371
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6/16/2014 9:13:37 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/16/2014 9:11:22 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 6/16/2014 9:10:08 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 6/16/2014 9:02:34 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 6/16/2014 8:37:49 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 6/16/2014 8:35:46 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 6/16/2014 8:01:12 PM, thett3 wrote:
People on DDO have a big hard on for BOP for no reason. All it generally means to have the BOP is that if at the end of the day I have *no* reason to favor either side I vote for the side that doesn't hold the BOP. How often does that happen?

A surprising amount of the time.

Not in the debates I've read, but I guess we all have differing opinions on what it means to have a reason to vote for either side.

Well, in a debate "X is true", with the BoP on the affirmative, the negative doesn't even have to make a case of any kind, as long as the affirmative doens't uphold the resolution. So if their arguments are all terrible, all the opponent has to do is point that out, and they win. Meanwhile, if the Pro managed to shift BoP to CON, the opposite would be true.

Right. How often do you find a debate where Aff is so bad that there is literally *no* reason whatsoever to vote for them? Neg relying on Aff having the BOP is a terrible strategy because if I have no neg ground, I'll vote aff on even the weakest of impacts. How often have you voted on BOP? I don't recall ever voting on it on DDO.

I have on numerous occasions. But I think you're primarily thinking of policy debate...I'm not.

I'm thinking more of the "X exists" debates and such.

Oh yeah, you're right. I'm so interested in and used to policy debates that I'd forgotten that the BOP can actually be a huge deal in philosophy debates. Point taken El Presidente :)
DDO Vice President

#StandwithBossy

#UnbanTheMadman

#BetOnThett

"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
ChosenWolff
Posts: 3,361
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6/16/2014 9:15:45 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I didn't really read your guy's posts, but to clarify....

"The government should spend money on welfare checks"

^ Instigator is Con

"The government shouldn't spend money on welfare checks"

^ Instigator is Pro

My point is that they are the same thing, but one resolution gives the instigator BOP, and one doesn't. The instigator should always have the BOP.
How about NO elections?

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Zaradi
Posts: 14,125
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6/17/2014 5:27:59 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/16/2014 9:15:45 PM, ChosenWolff wrote:
The instigator should always have the BOP.

Why?
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ChosenWolff
Posts: 3,361
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6/17/2014 5:29:57 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/17/2014 5:27:59 PM, Zaradi wrote:
At 6/16/2014 9:15:45 PM, ChosenWolff wrote:
The instigator should always have the BOP.

Why?

The resolution can always be worded as an affirmative statement.
How about NO elections?

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Zaradi
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6/17/2014 8:39:28 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/17/2014 5:29:57 PM, ChosenWolff wrote:
At 6/17/2014 5:27:59 PM, Zaradi wrote:
At 6/16/2014 9:15:45 PM, ChosenWolff wrote:
The instigator should always have the BOP.

Why?

The resolution can always be worded as an affirmative statement.

Your point?
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ChosenWolff
Posts: 3,361
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6/17/2014 8:40:02 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/17/2014 8:39:28 PM, Zaradi wrote:
At 6/17/2014 5:29:57 PM, ChosenWolff wrote:
At 6/17/2014 5:27:59 PM, Zaradi wrote:
At 6/16/2014 9:15:45 PM, ChosenWolff wrote:
The instigator should always have the BOP.

Why?

The resolution can always be worded as an affirmative statement.

Your point?

Therefore, the instigator has the BOP.
How about NO elections?

#onlyonedeb8
Zaradi
Posts: 14,125
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6/17/2014 8:50:38 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/17/2014 8:40:02 PM, ChosenWolff wrote:
At 6/17/2014 8:39:28 PM, Zaradi wrote:
At 6/17/2014 5:29:57 PM, ChosenWolff wrote:
At 6/17/2014 5:27:59 PM, Zaradi wrote:
At 6/16/2014 9:15:45 PM, ChosenWolff wrote:
The instigator should always have the BOP.

Why?

The resolution can always be worded as an affirmative statement.

Your point?

Therefore, the instigator has the BOP.

I instigate as con. Do I have BOP?

Moreover, what I'm trying to point out that your view of what a BOP is is a) kinda wrong, and b) really sloppy/bad. It's kinda wrong because while you're right that the affirmative has a bop to uphold the resolution, the negative still has a bop to negate the resolution. So your "instigator always has bop" is wrong because we all have to prove sh*t and make arguments.

Moreover, it's really bad because it gets you into the mindset that "all I have to do is refute and I win" which is not only just wrong, but also a really bad habit to get into because that's not how arguments function in terms of impacting.
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