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New standard debate format

thett3
Posts: 14,338
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7/10/2014 8:41:56 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I've been thinking about what's been contributing the my current lack of interest in debates/debating on this site. Obviously a good deal (most, I'm sure) is due to simple burnout, but I think there are other factors involved. I think one of them is the nature of debate structuring on DDO.

I feel like reading debates and debating is a grind mostly because the same arguments are made over and over. There is little development. This is not to say that the debates are not high quality, but rather that they lack development in the sense that the same arguments are being made throughout the round.

In real world debate, the times allotted for speeches progressively get smaller as the debate goes on. This forces debaters to make choices and defend their strongest points, dropping those of less import. Moreover even for the arguments kept, the debaters are forced to advance only their most important lines of attack and defense. This crystallizes the debate and makes it more interesting along with highlighting the most important differences in lines of thought. By contrast, on DDO the final speech is the same length as the opening one, so often times every single point of rebuttal is carried through, and debated, throughout the entire round. This makes debates a grind and, in my opinion, greatly decreases quality overall.

In real world debate, the final round is essentially a crystallization of the round and giving the judge reasons to give them the ballot. This makes judging exponentially easier and fairer as the important points in the round are given by the debaters themselves, lessening the amount of thinking the judge has to do and therefore lessening the possibility of bias or interventionist voting.

Another issue with DDO debates is miscommunication between opponents. Often a debater will think their opponent is advocating something with a certain line of reasoning, and will attack that only to be accidentally attacking a strawman which adds to the confusion of the debate. This is an issue that can be solved by implementing some form of cross examination.

I understand that the chances of Juggle implementing these things, at least any time soon, is very low. I also understand that, since text debate is different from spoken debate, my suggested "improvements" to the DDO format may in fact be anything but, and this is why I propose we do a few test debates in this format, and then conduct a survey among the judges to get their thoughts on the debate.

I propose that the new standard set up should be something like this:

Five rounds, first round for acceptance. Second round is constructive cases, 8000 character limit. Third round first rebuttal-8000 character limit. Fourth round second rebuttal- 5-6000 character limit. Fifth round final speech- 2-4000 character limit.

In the comments section, debaters can ask each other questions and get answers in a form of cross examination. It might be objected that judges will not read this, but they aren't expected to. In real debate, judges do not flow the cross examination periods because they're all about the debaters figuring out holes in their opponents cases to be exploited *in the speeches*.
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: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
Cermank
Posts: 3,773
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7/10/2014 8:51:25 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
In fact, we could even have a separate section for cross questioning- if juggle agrees with this. That would make sure there's no hotch poch
thett3
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7/10/2014 8:53:19 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/10/2014 8:51:25 PM, Cermank wrote:
In fact, we could even have a separate section for cross questioning- if juggle agrees with this. That would make sure there's no hotch poch

Yeah, I'd like that if Juggle could implement it eventually although no matter what a lot of the value of cross ex is going to be lost in a written format pretty much no matter what
DDO Vice President

#StandwithBossy

#UnbanTheMadman

#BetOnThett

"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
ChosenWolff
Posts: 3,361
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7/10/2014 8:54:22 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I'm thinking of adopting a standard debate style. Good thing this one is here.
How about NO elections?

#onlyonedeb8
thett3
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7/10/2014 8:59:29 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/10/2014 8:54:22 PM, ChosenWolff wrote:
I'm thinking of adopting a standard debate style. Good thing this one is here.

I hope you aren't being sarcastic...
DDO Vice President

#StandwithBossy

#UnbanTheMadman

#BetOnThett

"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
ChosenWolff
Posts: 3,361
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7/10/2014 9:04:47 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/10/2014 8:59:29 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 7/10/2014 8:54:22 PM, ChosenWolff wrote:
I'm thinking of adopting a standard debate style. Good thing this one is here.

I hope you aren't being sarcastic...
No, I like the idea of setting a lower and lower character limit each turn, and using the final rounds for cross examination.
How about NO elections?

#onlyonedeb8
ClassicRobert
Posts: 2,487
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7/10/2014 9:13:01 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I like this, but I honestly don't see a way that CX could be done on here without losing what actually made it strategic in a debate.
Debate me: Economic decision theory should be adjusted to include higher-order preferences for non-normative purposes http://www.debate.org...

Do you really believe that? Or not? If you believe it, you should man up and defend it in a debate. -RoyLatham

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It's an app to meet friends and stuff, sort of like an adult club penguin- Thett3, describing Tinder
thett3
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7/10/2014 9:16:14 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/10/2014 9:13:01 PM, ClassicRobert wrote:
I like this, but I honestly don't see a way that CX could be done on here without losing what actually made it strategic in a debate.

Yeah, I'm inclined to agree but it's something I'd at least like to see tried out
DDO Vice President

#StandwithBossy

#UnbanTheMadman

#BetOnThett

"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
Mikal
Posts: 11,270
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7/10/2014 9:17:17 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/10/2014 9:16:14 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 7/10/2014 9:13:01 PM, ClassicRobert wrote:
I like this, but I honestly don't see a way that CX could be done on here without losing what actually made it strategic in a debate.

Yeah, I'm inclined to agree but it's something I'd at least like to see tried out

ill examine you ne time bby
ChosenWolff
Posts: 3,361
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7/10/2014 9:19:23 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Juggle will never implement this. Serious debating is anti troll, and juggles marketplace is full of trolls. Plus, they're extremely lazy and get nothing done. Who want's to bet that no one will ever change the elected officials page?
How about NO elections?

#onlyonedeb8
Cermank
Posts: 3,773
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7/10/2014 9:26:42 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/10/2014 9:19:23 PM, ChosenWolff wrote:
Juggle will never implement this. Serious debating is anti troll, and juggles marketplace is full of trolls. Plus, they're extremely lazy and get nothing done. Who want's to bet that no one will ever change the elected officials page?

http://i1.ytimg.com...
YYW
Posts: 36,282
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7/10/2014 9:28:13 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/10/2014 9:26:42 PM, Cermank wrote:
At 7/10/2014 9:19:23 PM, ChosenWolff wrote:
Juggle will never implement this. Serious debating is anti troll, and juggles marketplace is full of trolls. Plus, they're extremely lazy and get nothing done. Who want's to bet that no one will ever change the elected officials page?

http://i1.ytimg.com...

*high fives*
Tsar of DDO
ChosenWolff
Posts: 3,361
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7/10/2014 9:31:45 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I actually like the format this site has, although the 300 character thing is BS. It has 3 oppurtunes for a argument. Meaning you can make 3 arguments. Likewise, you can ask your opponent three questions. Your opponent can do the same. For each question asked, you can give one answer. For each argument made, you can give one rebuttal.

I think debate.org should guide debates like this site does.
http://www.naqeshny.com...
How about NO elections?

#onlyonedeb8