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Comment Sections and Conduct

Ragnar
Posts: 1,658
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7/11/2014 1:12:21 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
While I have long held the view that we only vote on the contents of the debate, not PMs etc. I am wondering what peoples views are on penalizing conduct, based on what someone does in the comment section?
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bsh1
Posts: 27,504
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7/11/2014 1:16:54 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/11/2014 1:12:21 AM, Ragnar wrote:
While I have long held the view that we only vote on the contents of the debate, not PMs etc. I am wondering what peoples views are on penalizing conduct, based on what someone does in the comment section?

It depends. I had an issue with my debate on abortion with DK...we disputed whether something he did was a rules breach and eventually came to a compromise solution about how we though judges should score it. We asked judges to read the comments to see our discussion, so they were at least aware of how we thought it should factor in. I think this type of thing is fair.

Additionally, I also have seen people cite sources in the comments section. As long as it is allowed by the rules of the debate and the opposing side doesn't object, I see no reason to disallow it.

I have also seen people score conduct based on rude comments made in the comments section. This is a bit more iffy...if the comments are especially egregious, maybe I would factor it in, but I'd have to see an example to be sure. Normally, I never even read the comments of the debates I vote on...
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Ragnar
Posts: 1,658
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7/11/2014 4:01:41 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
It's not one of my debates, just one I saw recently that brought it to the forefront of my mind (I will not post a link, as that kind of finger pointing would unfairly attract biased voters against them for a minor conduct breach).

A person was arguing for one type of government over another. In the comment section they started spewing out benefits of their chosen one, then when called on it insisted it was not an argument just the facts.

While I am refraining from voting on that specific debate, I think I shall begin penalizing the conduct point for such things, as it's an attempt to cheat the character limit, comparable to when people were taking screenshots of large sections of text.
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debatability
Posts: 1,160
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7/11/2014 4:12:20 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I would think that if a debate extended into the comments section, it would be best to simply ignore comments. If a debater was especially obnoxious about trying to get the voter to vote based on what was in the comment section during one of the debate rounds, I think it would be acceptable to make them lose the conduct point. I generally try to ignore the comment section when analyzing debates.
bladerunner060
Posts: 7,126
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7/11/2014 4:57:37 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/11/2014 4:01:41 PM, Ragnar wrote:
It's not one of my debates, just one I saw recently that brought it to the forefront of my mind (I will not post a link, as that kind of finger pointing would unfairly attract biased voters against them for a minor conduct breach).

A person was arguing for one type of government over another. In the comment section they started spewing out benefits of their chosen one, then when called on it insisted it was not an argument just the facts.

While I am refraining from voting on that specific debate, I think I shall begin penalizing the conduct point for such things, as it's an attempt to cheat the character limit, comparable to when people were taking screenshots of large sections of text.

Without reference to any specifics, I think such an activity would be worse if, hypothetically, they gave a specific call to action to the judges within those comments TO factor it into the debate.

Sometimes people continue arguing in the comments--I don't think that's wrong, necessarily, though it might be poor form, depending. I kind of see it as just continuing the discussion; there's not anything inherently wrong with that, and besides, I rarely check the comments before reading the debate anyway. However, when a party is specifically TRYING to use the comment section to influence the voting, I think that's entirely different.
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bluesteel
Posts: 12,301
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7/11/2014 5:12:07 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/11/2014 1:12:21 AM, Ragnar wrote:
While I have long held the view that we only vote on the contents of the debate, not PMs etc. I am wondering what peoples views are on penalizing conduct, based on what someone does in the comment section?

I treat someone trying to continue to convince me in the comments section as if -- in a live debate -- they followed me out of the room and tried to continue to argue for my ballot after the round is over. It's harassing and poor conduct and deserved to be punished.

That said, if people use the better -- choose winner -- voting option this is a non-issue because conduct is not a basis for a point.
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)
Ragnar
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7/11/2014 6:25:13 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/11/2014 5:12:07 PM, bluesteel wrote:
I treat someone trying to continue to convince me in the comments section as if -- in a live debate -- they followed me out of the room and tried to continue to argue for my ballot after the round is over. It's harassing and poor conduct and deserved to be punished.

That said, if people use the better -- choose winner -- voting option this is a non-issue because conduct is not a basis for a point.

The first part is a decent way to look at it (even if DDO is unreconizable from live debates), however the second paragraph there seems flawed. The Choose Winner voting does not remove conduct from the factors in the vote, in fact AFAIK DDO standards on votes all still apply.
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ChosenWolff
Posts: 3,361
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7/11/2014 6:30:50 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/11/2014 1:12:21 AM, Ragnar wrote:
While I have long held the view that we only vote on the contents of the debate, not PMs etc. I am wondering what peoples views are on penalizing conduct, based on what someone does in the comment section?
I don't know, but Wrichcirw has slightly changed my views on one issue. Airmax doesn't really condone arguing votes in the comments, but Wrichcirw convinced me that the more we argue votes, the more meaningful interactions we have with our debates. Or that's at least what I believe he said. I see people all the time score conduct for arguing votes in the comments.

That's all you should vote on. Conduct IMHO. Airmax said you are not allowed to score a conduct point for things in the comments though.
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bluesteel
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7/11/2014 6:52:12 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/11/2014 6:25:13 PM, Ragnar wrote:
At 7/11/2014 5:12:07 PM, bluesteel wrote:
I treat someone trying to continue to convince me in the comments section as if -- in a live debate -- they followed me out of the room and tried to continue to argue for my ballot after the round is over. It's harassing and poor conduct and deserved to be punished.

That said, if people use the better -- choose winner -- voting option this is a non-issue because conduct is not a basis for a point.

The first part is a decent way to look at it (even if DDO is unreconizable from live debates), however the second paragraph there seems flawed. The Choose Winner voting does not remove conduct from the factors in the vote, in fact AFAIK DDO standards on votes all still apply.

It certainly changes my decision calculus. I will quickly award one conduct point if one side is arguing in comments and the other is not. It would take rather egregious conduct before I would award the entire win to the other side.
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)
YYW
Posts: 36,394
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7/12/2014 10:43:41 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/11/2014 1:12:21 AM, Ragnar wrote:
While I have long held the view that we only vote on the contents of the debate, not PMs etc. I am wondering what peoples views are on penalizing conduct, based on what someone does in the comment section?

I would never allow anything other than what took place in the actual debate to influence an RFD that I wrote. The reason is because when you cast an RFD, the ballot does not ask you how nice the debaters were to one another. It asks you who won the debate. Generally, debaters ought to treat one another with respect, but it's superior arguments that win debates.... not niceness.

The only conduct issue that should result in a loss is plagiarism. As a rule, voting based on how nice the debaters are to one another is arbitrary, unethical and a disservice to the activity of debate itself because debate is not a competition of how civil we can be to each other -but of who can make the most compelling arguments. Whenever I see someone who casts a ballot based on conduct, unless it's about plagiarism, I'm generally inclined to think it's because the person who cast that ballot is too inept to understand how to cast a ballot properly.

Even still, the best answer to stupid votes is more votes except in the most egregious of circumstances.
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YYW
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7/12/2014 10:44:13 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/12/2014 10:43:41 AM, YYW wrote:
At 7/11/2014 1:12:21 AM, Ragnar wrote:
While I have long held the view that we only vote on the contents of the debate, not PMs etc. I am wondering what peoples views are on penalizing conduct, based on what someone does in the comment section?

I would never allow anything other than what took place in the actual debate to influence an RFD that I wrote. The reason is because when you cast an RFD, the ballot does not ask you how nice the debaters were to one another. It asks you who won the debate. Generally, debaters ought to treat one another with respect, but it's superior arguments that win debates.... not niceness.

The only conduct issue that should result in a loss is plagiarism. As a rule, voting based on how nice the debaters are to one another is arbitrary, unethical and a disservice to the activity of debate itself because debate is not a competition of how civil we can be to each other -but of who can make the most compelling arguments. Whenever I see someone who casts a ballot based on conduct, unless it's about plagiarism, I'm generally inclined to think it's because the person who cast that ballot is too inept to understand how to cast a ballot properly.

Even still, the best answer to stupid votes is more votes except in the most egregious of circumstances.

(this applies only to the win/loss ballot, btw.)
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YYW
Posts: 36,394
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7/12/2014 10:46:54 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
I would also submit that, in all circumstances, moderators are in a far better position to address bad behavior than judges -whether that behavior is in the forums, or in rounds.
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