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YYW
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7/15/2014 10:30:20 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Resolved: Hobby Lobby ought to be able to deny insurance coverage for certain kinds of birth control to its female employees for religious reasons. (CON)

Resolved: Student loans should be abolished. (CON)

Resolved: Unaccompanied minors from Central and South America who are detained at the US-Mexican border for attempting to illegally enter the United States should be immediately returned to their home countries. (CON)
Tsar of DDO
YYW
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7/15/2014 10:30:54 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Three to four rounds. Ten thousand characters. Panel judging. We'll negotiate judges via PM.
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bsh1
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7/15/2014 11:52:57 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/15/2014 10:30:20 PM, YYW wrote:

Resolved: Student loans should be abolished. (CON)

Interesting. Not that I disagree, but why?
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bladerunner060
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7/15/2014 11:53:49 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/15/2014 11:52:57 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 7/15/2014 10:30:20 PM, YYW wrote:

Resolved: Student loans should be abolished. (CON)

Interesting. Not that I disagree, but why?

You're asking why he DOESN'T think they should be abolished?
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bsh1
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7/15/2014 11:58:05 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/15/2014 11:53:49 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 7/15/2014 11:52:57 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 7/15/2014 10:30:20 PM, YYW wrote:

Resolved: Student loans should be abolished. (CON)

Interesting. Not that I disagree, but why?

You're asking why he DOESN'T think they should be abolished?

Yup. I'm asking for his thoughts on the issue, and since he doesn't want them abolished, why that is.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

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Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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7/15/2014 11:58:43 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Not relevant to your proposals, but are you interested in topics specific to Europe (history, etc.)? I've considered those for a while.
bladerunner060
Posts: 7,126
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7/16/2014
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/15/2014 11:58:05 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 7/15/2014 11:53:49 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 7/15/2014 11:52:57 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 7/15/2014 10:30:20 PM, YYW wrote:

Resolved: Student loans should be abolished. (CON)

Interesting. Not that I disagree, but why?

You're asking why he DOESN'T think they should be abolished?

Yup. I'm asking for his thoughts on the issue, and since he doesn't want them abolished, why that is.

Fair enough. Just making sure you hadn't missed the "con" part, which you clearly hadn't.
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bsh1
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7/16/2014 12:01:13 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/16/2014, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 7/15/2014 11:58:05 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 7/15/2014 11:53:49 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 7/15/2014 11:52:57 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 7/15/2014 10:30:20 PM, YYW wrote:

Resolved: Student loans should be abolished. (CON)

Interesting. Not that I disagree, but why?

You're asking why he DOESN'T think they should be abolished?

Yup. I'm asking for his thoughts on the issue, and since he doesn't want them abolished, why that is.

Fair enough. Just making sure you hadn't missed the "con" part, which you clearly hadn't.

Yup, I know :)
Live Long and Prosper

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"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

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YYW
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7/16/2014 12:01:48 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/15/2014 11:58:43 PM, Mirza wrote:
Not relevant to your proposals, but are you interested in topics specific to Europe (history, etc.)? I've considered those for a while.

Toss out a few ideas...
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YYW
Posts: 36,342
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7/16/2014 12:02:47 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/15/2014 11:52:57 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 7/15/2014 10:30:20 PM, YYW wrote:

Resolved: Student loans should be abolished. (CON)

Interesting. Not that I disagree, but why?

Because as long as the United States charges tuition for college, student loans are the only way that a majority of students can afford to go.
Tsar of DDO
bsh1
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7/16/2014 12:07:06 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/16/2014 12:02:47 AM, YYW wrote:
At 7/15/2014 11:52:57 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 7/15/2014 10:30:20 PM, YYW wrote:

Resolved: Student loans should be abolished. (CON)

Interesting. Not that I disagree, but why?

Because as long as the United States charges tuition for college, student loans are the only way that a majority of students can afford to go.

Why not simply offer some sort of alternative to high tuition costs, like more community colleges or caps on tuition for state schools?
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

Follow the DDOlympics
: http://www.debate.org...

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Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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7/16/2014 12:09:47 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/16/2014 12:01:48 AM, YYW wrote:
At 7/15/2014 11:58:43 PM, Mirza wrote:
Not relevant to your proposals, but are you interested in topics specific to Europe (history, etc.)? I've considered those for a while.

Toss out a few ideas...
Independence of Kosovo (I'll eventually take up Lannan on this), the expansion of borders to unify ethnic groups (e.g., Russians, Serbs, etc.) - few off the top of my head. The latter topic is something I do not have a static position on, because it depends on what country we're talking about.
YYW
Posts: 36,342
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7/16/2014 12:10:31 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/16/2014 12:07:06 AM, bsh1 wrote:
At 7/16/2014 12:02:47 AM, YYW wrote:
At 7/15/2014 11:52:57 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 7/15/2014 10:30:20 PM, YYW wrote:

Resolved: Student loans should be abolished. (CON)

Interesting. Not that I disagree, but why?

Because as long as the United States charges tuition for college, student loans are the only way that a majority of students can afford to go.

Why not simply offer some sort of alternative to high tuition costs, like more community colleges or caps on tuition for state schools?

Because that's a separate issue than student loans. I think that community colleges are a better bet for most students, especially when they're choosing between a community college and a for-profit sham school like Liberty University or DeVry (and I think that for profit schools should be closed down by the federal government), but that, too, is something separate from the question of how college tuition is to be financed.
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JohnMaynardKeynes
Posts: 1,512
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7/16/2014 12:10:49 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/16/2014 12:07:06 AM, bsh1 wrote:
At 7/16/2014 12:02:47 AM, YYW wrote:
At 7/15/2014 11:52:57 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 7/15/2014 10:30:20 PM, YYW wrote:

Resolved: Student loans should be abolished. (CON)

Interesting. Not that I disagree, but why?

Because as long as the United States charges tuition for college, student loans are the only way that a majority of students can afford to go.

Why not simply offer some sort of alternative to high tuition costs, like more community colleges or caps on tuition for state schools?

You can do all of that and then some, and still not deal with the rising cost of college. The intention isn't to deal solely with publicly funded universities; that's part of it, of course, and should drive down prices. But X community college or Y state university, while perfectly reasonable choices in their own right, aren't Harvard. So, if anything, student loans would be an equalizer.

I'd take it a bit further than tuition caps -- which would mean salary caps -- and just fully subsidize pre-k to undergrad education.
~JohnMaynardKeynes

"The sight of my succulent backside acts as a sedative for the beholder. It soothes the pain of life and makes all which hurts seem like bliss. I urge all those stressed by ridiculous drama on DDO which will never affect your real life to gaze upon my cheeks for they will make you have an excitement and joy you've never felt before." -- Dr. Dennybug

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YYW
Posts: 36,342
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7/16/2014 12:12:34 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/16/2014 12:09:47 AM, Mirza wrote:
At 7/16/2014 12:01:48 AM, YYW wrote:
At 7/15/2014 11:58:43 PM, Mirza wrote:
Not relevant to your proposals, but are you interested in topics specific to Europe (history, etc.)? I've considered those for a while.

Toss out a few ideas...
Independence of Kosovo (I'll eventually take up Lannan on this), the expansion of borders to unify ethnic groups (e.g., Russians, Serbs, etc.) - few off the top of my head. The latter topic is something I do not have a static position on, because it depends on what country we're talking about.

Kosovo's independence is something I have mixed feelings about (sorry), and I'm also generally against the idea that nations should have a right to rule themselves on the sole basis that they are distinct ethnic groups. But, we'll see what you can come up with...
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bsh1
Posts: 27,504
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7/16/2014 12:14:42 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/16/2014 12:10:31 AM, YYW wrote:
At 7/16/2014 12:07:06 AM, bsh1 wrote:
At 7/16/2014 12:02:47 AM, YYW wrote:
At 7/15/2014 11:52:57 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 7/15/2014 10:30:20 PM, YYW wrote:

Resolved: Student loans should be abolished. (CON)

Interesting. Not that I disagree, but why?

Because as long as the United States charges tuition for college, student loans are the only way that a majority of students can afford to go.

Why not simply offer some sort of alternative to high tuition costs, like more community colleges or caps on tuition for state schools?

Because that's a separate issue than student loans. I think that community colleges are a better bet for most students, especially when they're choosing between a community college and a for-profit sham school like Liberty University or DeVry (and I think that for profit schools should be closed down by the federal government), but that, too, is something separate from the question of how college tuition is to be financed.

I don't think you can separate the issue so completely. If tuition were somehow wrangled to reasonable levels, or if it were somehow eliminated (high impractical), then we could obviate the need for student loans to a degree, perhaps not completely.

IDK...I agree that student loans ought not to be abolished outright, but perhaps they should be granted on a more selective level, provided the tuition problem were tackled in a feasible way.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

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bsh1
Posts: 27,504
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7/16/2014 12:16:32 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/16/2014 12:10:49 AM, JohnMaynardKeynes wrote:
At 7/16/2014 12:07:06 AM, bsh1 wrote:
At 7/16/2014 12:02:47 AM, YYW wrote:
At 7/15/2014 11:52:57 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 7/15/2014 10:30:20 PM, YYW wrote:

Resolved: Student loans should be abolished. (CON)

Interesting. Not that I disagree, but why?

Because as long as the United States charges tuition for college, student loans are the only way that a majority of students can afford to go.

Why not simply offer some sort of alternative to high tuition costs, like more community colleges or caps on tuition for state schools?

You can do all of that and then some, and still not deal with the rising cost of college. The intention isn't to deal solely with publicly funded universities; that's part of it, of course, and should drive down prices. But X community college or Y state university, while perfectly reasonable choices in their own right, aren't Harvard. So, if anything, student loans would be an equalizer.

Harvard is a state university, lol.

I'd take it a bit further than tuition caps -- which would mean salary caps -- and just fully subsidize pre-k to undergrad education.

I can agree with that in principle, but where does the money come from to finance that? Cash-strapped as most nations are, it hardly seems practical to make undergrad free, even though pre-K should be.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

Follow the DDOlympics
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Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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7/16/2014 12:18:11 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/16/2014 12:12:34 AM, YYW wrote:.
nations should have a right to rule themselves on the sole basis that they are distinct ethnic groups. But, we'll see what you can come up with...
I agree with this. I am more concerned about the expansion of already established states into borders that cover the areas in which their ethnic group reside. Generally Con, save for the areas that legitimately belong to another country. An example is small fraction of Sweden, the very south part, that used to belong to Denmark. The people there are generally ethnic Danes. Denmark has a legitimate historical claim on this area.
YYW
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7/16/2014 12:20:42 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/16/2014 12:14:42 AM, bsh1 wrote:
At 7/16/2014 12:10:31 AM, YYW wrote:
At 7/16/2014 12:07:06 AM, bsh1 wrote:
At 7/16/2014 12:02:47 AM, YYW wrote:
At 7/15/2014 11:52:57 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 7/15/2014 10:30:20 PM, YYW wrote:

Resolved: Student loans should be abolished. (CON)

Interesting. Not that I disagree, but why?

Because as long as the United States charges tuition for college, student loans are the only way that a majority of students can afford to go.

Why not simply offer some sort of alternative to high tuition costs, like more community colleges or caps on tuition for state schools?

Because that's a separate issue than student loans. I think that community colleges are a better bet for most students, especially when they're choosing between a community college and a for-profit sham school like Liberty University or DeVry (and I think that for profit schools should be closed down by the federal government), but that, too, is something separate from the question of how college tuition is to be financed.

I don't think you can separate the issue so completely.

The issues are related, but they're not inseparable. Student loans (especially where they are issues to people who shouldn't go to college) are one part of the problem with the cost of higher ed, in a general sense. So, insofar as there is the issue at a general level (financing higher ed) and a precise aspect of it (student loans), there is a distinction that necessarily exists.

If tuition were somehow wrangled to reasonable levels, or if it were somehow eliminated (high impractical), then we could obviate the need for student loans to a degree, perhaps not completely.

Tuition is going to exist so long as colleges and universities exist, the questions, however, are (1) who should pay and (2) how should those who pay, pay? It would be my contention that US taxpayers should pay for college and the costs associated with it and they should pay with higher taxes proportional to their income. But, that would render the question of student loans, largely, moot.

IDK...I agree that student loans ought not to be abolished outright, but perhaps they should be granted on a more selective level, provided the tuition problem were tackled in a feasible way.

The way to address that issue is to get universities to stop wasting money on stupid and frivolous things, like elaborate dormitories and career counselors who do nothing other than occupy space.
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YYW
Posts: 36,342
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7/16/2014 12:22:51 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/16/2014 12:18:11 AM, Mirza wrote:
At 7/16/2014 12:12:34 AM, YYW wrote:.
nations should have a right to rule themselves on the sole basis that they are distinct ethnic groups. But, we'll see what you can come up with...
I agree with this. I am more concerned about the expansion of already established states into borders that cover the areas in which their ethnic group reside.

Like Russia claiming that it has a legitimate interest at stake in Eastern Ukraine?

Generally Con, save for the areas that legitimately belong to another country.

I agree, though I would take substantial issue with the proposition that, for example, Crimea ought to have been under Russian control.

An example is small fraction of Sweden, the very south part, that used to belong to Denmark. The people there are generally ethnic Danes. Denmark has a legitimate historical claim on this area.

Maybe... I don't know a whole lot about that, though, so I'm reluctant to speak on it.
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JohnMaynardKeynes
Posts: 1,512
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7/16/2014 12:23:31 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/16/2014 12:16:32 AM, bsh1 wrote:
At 7/16/2014 12:10:49 AM, JohnMaynardKeynes wrote:
At 7/16/2014 12:07:06 AM, bsh1 wrote:
At 7/16/2014 12:02:47 AM, YYW wrote:
At 7/15/2014 11:52:57 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 7/15/2014 10:30:20 PM, YYW wrote:

Resolved: Student loans should be abolished. (CON)

Interesting. Not that I disagree, but why?

Because as long as the United States charges tuition for college, student loans are the only way that a majority of students can afford to go.

Why not simply offer some sort of alternative to high tuition costs, like more community colleges or caps on tuition for state schools?

You can do all of that and then some, and still not deal with the rising cost of college. The intention isn't to deal solely with publicly funded universities; that's part of it, of course, and should drive down prices. But X community college or Y state university, while perfectly reasonable choices in their own right, aren't Harvard. So, if anything, student loans would be an equalizer.

Harvard is a state university, lol.


Harvard's a state university?! Considering that I'm still bleeding debt from my three years there, I'd say there isn't a single way it received public funding.

"Harvard University is a private Ivy League research university in Cambridge, Massachusetts, whose history, influence and wealth have made it one of the most prestigious universities in the world." http://en.wikipedia.org...

So, unless I'm crazy, I'd say it's private lol.

I'd take it a bit further than tuition caps -- which would mean salary caps -- and just fully subsidize pre-k to undergrad education.

I can agree with that in principle, but where does the money come from to finance that? Cash-strapped as most nations are, it hardly seems practical to make undergrad free, even though pre-K should be.

Other countries that have tried it have seen huge returns, so in the short term it ends up being expensive, but it pays for itself over the long term. There are a number of ways to finance it -- slash a bunch of frivolous military spending to pay for it, raise taxes, etc. -- or even some moderate cost-cutting measures, such as allowing students to defer payments until after they graduate from a statement university, and then pay a small percentage of their income after they find full unemployment. That way, there would be a constant pool of funding for incoming students. That isn't exactly universal higher education, but it's probably a decent substitute that wouldn't require a massive tax hike that only myself and a few other cray libs would love, lol.
~JohnMaynardKeynes

"The sight of my succulent backside acts as a sedative for the beholder. It soothes the pain of life and makes all which hurts seem like bliss. I urge all those stressed by ridiculous drama on DDO which will never affect your real life to gaze upon my cheeks for they will make you have an excitement and joy you've never felt before." -- Dr. Dennybug

Founder of the BSH-YYW Fan Club
Founder of the Barkalotti
Stand with Dogs and Economics
bsh1
Posts: 27,504
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7/16/2014 12:26:29 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/16/2014 12:20:42 AM, YYW wrote:
At 7/16/2014 12:14:42 AM, bsh1 wrote:
At 7/16/2014 12:10:31 AM, YYW wrote:
At 7/16/2014 12:07:06 AM, bsh1 wrote:
At 7/16/2014 12:02:47 AM, YYW wrote:
At 7/15/2014 11:52:57 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 7/15/2014 10:30:20 PM, YYW wrote:

Resolved: Student loans should be abolished. (CON)

Interesting. Not that I disagree, but why?

Because as long as the United States charges tuition for college, student loans are the only way that a majority of students can afford to go.

Why not simply offer some sort of alternative to high tuition costs, like more community colleges or caps on tuition for state schools?

Because that's a separate issue than student loans. I think that community colleges are a better bet for most students, especially when they're choosing between a community college and a for-profit sham school like Liberty University or DeVry (and I think that for profit schools should be closed down by the federal government), but that, too, is something separate from the question of how college tuition is to be financed.

I don't think you can separate the issue so completely.

The issues are related, but they're not inseparable. Student loans (especially where they are issues to people who shouldn't go to college) are one part of the problem with the cost of higher ed, in a general sense. So, insofar as there is the issue at a general level (financing higher ed) and a precise aspect of it (student loans), there is a distinction that necessarily exists.

True, but my point was that they shouldn't be so completely separated. We should grant that one impacts the other, and thus there is some relation. So, I agree with what you said here.

If tuition were somehow wrangled to reasonable levels, or if it were somehow eliminated (high impractical), then we could obviate the need for student loans to a degree, perhaps not completely.

Tuition is going to exist so long as colleges and universities exist

I'm not sure I necessarily agree. It is not unthinkable that a country might simply subsidize undergrad, in which case, there is no tuition in the formal sense, though people are still paying for it through their taxes.

the questions, however, are (1) who should pay and (2) how should those who pay, pay? It would be my contention that US taxpayers should pay for college and the costs associated with it and they should pay with higher taxes proportional to their income. But, that would render the question of student loans, largely, moot.

Agreed.

IDK...I agree that student loans ought not to be abolished outright, but perhaps they should be granted on a more selective level, provided the tuition problem were tackled in a feasible way.

The way to address that issue is to get universities to stop wasting money on stupid and frivolous things, like elaborate dormitories and career counselors who do nothing other than occupy space.

Lol...very true.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

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Mirza
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7/16/2014 12:28:04 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/16/2014 12:22:51 AM, YYW wrote:
Like Russia claiming that it has a legitimate interest at stake in Eastern Ukraine?
Yes. However, their claim does not have to be questioned. A historical perspective can take a different route than modern political discourse. I do not currently have a solid position on Crimea, or the rest of Eastern Ukraine, but in essence they count as examples.

I agree, though I would take substantial issue with the proposition that, for example, Crimea ought to have been under Russian control.
What do you take issue with in this case? Aside from the illegitimacy of the poll. Assume, however, that it is legitimate, and the ethnic Russians do wish to merge borders with their fellow people.
YYW
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7/16/2014 12:29:31 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/16/2014 12:26:29 AM, bsh1 wrote:
At 7/16/2014 12:20:42 AM, YYW wrote:
At 7/16/2014 12:14:42 AM, bsh1 wrote:
At 7/16/2014 12:10:31 AM, YYW wrote:
At 7/16/2014 12:07:06 AM, bsh1 wrote:
At 7/16/2014 12:02:47 AM, YYW wrote:
At 7/15/2014 11:52:57 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 7/15/2014 10:30:20 PM, YYW wrote:

Resolved: Student loans should be abolished. (CON)

Interesting. Not that I disagree, but why?

Because as long as the United States charges tuition for college, student loans are the only way that a majority of students can afford to go.

Why not simply offer some sort of alternative to high tuition costs, like more community colleges or caps on tuition for state schools?

Because that's a separate issue than student loans. I think that community colleges are a better bet for most students, especially when they're choosing between a community college and a for-profit sham school like Liberty University or DeVry (and I think that for profit schools should be closed down by the federal government), but that, too, is something separate from the question of how college tuition is to be financed.

I don't think you can separate the issue so completely.

The issues are related, but they're not inseparable. Student loans (especially where they are issues to people who shouldn't go to college) are one part of the problem with the cost of higher ed, in a general sense. So, insofar as there is the issue at a general level (financing higher ed) and a precise aspect of it (student loans), there is a distinction that necessarily exists.

True, but my point was that they shouldn't be so completely separated. We should grant that one impacts the other, and thus there is some relation. So, I agree with what you said here.

If tuition were somehow wrangled to reasonable levels, or if it were somehow eliminated (high impractical), then we could obviate the need for student loans to a degree, perhaps not completely.

Tuition is going to exist so long as colleges and universities exist

I'm not sure I necessarily agree. It is not unthinkable that a country might simply subsidize undergrad, in which case, there is no tuition in the formal sense, though people are still paying for it through their taxes.

Tuition is the cost of a student's attending a school, it isn't necessarily paid by individual students or their families. Because universities always cost money to run, there is always going to have to be a cost to attend them -and that cost could be paid by taxes or by individuals and their families. Tuition, then, is always going to exist.

the questions, however, are (1) who should pay and (2) how should those who pay, pay? It would be my contention that US taxpayers should pay for college and the costs associated with it and they should pay with higher taxes proportional to their income. But, that would render the question of student loans, largely, moot.

Agreed.

IDK...I agree that student loans ought not to be abolished outright, but perhaps they should be granted on a more selective level, provided the tuition problem were tackled in a feasible way.

The way to address that issue is to get universities to stop wasting money on stupid and frivolous things, like elaborate dormitories and career counselors who do nothing other than occupy space.

Lol...very true.
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YYW
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7/16/2014 12:32:12 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/16/2014 12:28:04 AM, Mirza wrote:
At 7/16/2014 12:22:51 AM, YYW wrote:
Like Russia claiming that it has a legitimate interest at stake in Eastern Ukraine?
Yes. However, their claim does not have to be questioned. A historical perspective can take a different route than modern political discourse. I do not currently have a solid position on Crimea, or the rest of Eastern Ukraine, but in essence they count as examples.

I agree, though I would take substantial issue with the proposition that, for example, Crimea ought to have been under Russian control.
What do you take issue with in this case? Aside from the illegitimacy of the poll. Assume, however, that it is legitimate, and the ethnic Russians do wish to merge borders with their fellow people.

I object to the idea that members of any group should have the right to alter or abolish the state to which they are subject to unless they are subject to vast and egregious abuse at the hand of the state.

Ukraine was not abusing ethnic Russians human rights, therefore they had no right to secede from Ukraine.
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bsh1
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7/16/2014 12:32:41 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/16/2014 12:23:31 AM, JohnMaynardKeynes wrote:
At 7/16/2014 12:16:32 AM, bsh1 wrote:
At 7/16/2014 12:10:49 AM, JohnMaynardKeynes wrote:
At 7/16/2014 12:07:06 AM, bsh1 wrote:
At 7/16/2014 12:02:47 AM, YYW wrote:
At 7/15/2014 11:52:57 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 7/15/2014 10:30:20 PM, YYW wrote:

Resolved: Student loans should be abolished. (CON)

Interesting. Not that I disagree, but why?

Because as long as the United States charges tuition for college, student loans are the only way that a majority of students can afford to go.

Why not simply offer some sort of alternative to high tuition costs, like more community colleges or caps on tuition for state schools?

You can do all of that and then some, and still not deal with the rising cost of college. The intention isn't to deal solely with publicly funded universities; that's part of it, of course, and should drive down prices. But X community college or Y state university, while perfectly reasonable choices in their own right, aren't Harvard. So, if anything, student loans would be an equalizer.

Harvard is a state university, lol.


Harvard's a state university?! Considering that I'm still bleeding debt from my three years there, I'd say there isn't a single way it received public funding.

I thought it had state funding. Guess I'm going insane lol...

I'd take it a bit further than tuition caps -- which would mean salary caps -- and just fully subsidize pre-k to undergrad education.

I can agree with that in principle, but where does the money come from to finance that? Cash-strapped as most nations are, it hardly seems practical to make undergrad free, even though pre-K should be.

Other countries that have tried it have seen huge returns, so in the short term it ends up being expensive, but it pays for itself over the long term. There are a number of ways to finance it -- slash a bunch of frivolous military spending to pay for it, raise taxes, etc. -- or even some moderate cost-cutting measures, such as allowing students to defer payments until after they graduate from a statement university, and then pay a small percentage of their income after they find full unemployment. That way, there would be a constant pool of funding for incoming students. That isn't exactly universal higher education, but it's probably a decent substitute that wouldn't require a massive tax hike that only myself and a few other cray libs would love, lol.

I am just concerned that additional spending at this moment would be hard...and there is no political will in Congress for the military cuts or tax hikes. Ultimately, I would simply advise waiting until we're in a more stable place economically before we try that.
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YYW
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7/16/2014 12:34:49 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/16/2014 12:32:41 AM, bsh1 wrote:
I thought it had state funding. Guess I'm going insane lol...

It's got lots of public funding...
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7/16/2014 12:34:58 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/16/2014 12:29:31 AM, YYW wrote:
At 7/16/2014 12:26:29 AM, bsh1 wrote:
At 7/16/2014 12:20:42 AM, YYW wrote:
At 7/16/2014 12:14:42 AM, bsh1 wrote:
At 7/16/2014 12:10:31 AM, YYW wrote:
At 7/16/2014 12:07:06 AM, bsh1 wrote:
At 7/16/2014 12:02:47 AM, YYW wrote:
At 7/15/2014 11:52:57 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 7/15/2014 10:30:20 PM, YYW wrote:

Resolved: Student loans should be abolished. (CON)

Interesting. Not that I disagree, but why?

Because as long as the United States charges tuition for college, student loans are the only way that a majority of students can afford to go.

Why not simply offer some sort of alternative to high tuition costs, like more community colleges or caps on tuition for state schools?

Because that's a separate issue than student loans. I think that community colleges are a better bet for most students, especially when they're choosing between a community college and a for-profit sham school like Liberty University or DeVry (and I think that for profit schools should be closed down by the federal government), but that, too, is something separate from the question of how college tuition is to be financed.

I don't think you can separate the issue so completely.

The issues are related, but they're not inseparable. Student loans (especially where they are issues to people who shouldn't go to college) are one part of the problem with the cost of higher ed, in a general sense. So, insofar as there is the issue at a general level (financing higher ed) and a precise aspect of it (student loans), there is a distinction that necessarily exists.

True, but my point was that they shouldn't be so completely separated. We should grant that one impacts the other, and thus there is some relation. So, I agree with what you said here.

If tuition were somehow wrangled to reasonable levels, or if it were somehow eliminated (high impractical), then we could obviate the need for student loans to a degree, perhaps not completely.

Tuition is going to exist so long as colleges and universities exist

I'm not sure I necessarily agree. It is not unthinkable that a country might simply subsidize undergrad, in which case, there is no tuition in the formal sense, though people are still paying for it through their taxes.

Tuition is the cost of a student's attending a school, it isn't necessarily paid by individual students or their families. Because universities always cost money to run, there is always going to have to be a cost to attend them -and that cost could be paid by taxes or by individuals and their families. Tuition, then, is always going to exist.

I guess that's a semantic thing then. To me, tuition is the payment individual families pay in order to allow their child/children to attend a school.

In the sense that subsidize college spreads out the cost, and it isn't borne by any single person or family, it's not tuition.

But that's just how I conceive the idea of tuition.
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JohnMaynardKeynes
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7/16/2014 12:37:14 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/16/2014 12:32:41 AM, bsh1 wrote:
At 7/16/2014 12:23:31 AM, JohnMaynardKeynes wrote:
At 7/16/2014 12:16:32 AM, bsh1 wrote:
At 7/16/2014 12:10:49 AM, JohnMaynardKeynes wrote:
At 7/16/2014 12:07:06 AM, bsh1 wrote:
At 7/16/2014 12:02:47 AM, YYW wrote:
At 7/15/2014 11:52:57 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 7/15/2014 10:30:20 PM, YYW wrote:

Resolved: Student loans should be abolished. (CON)

Interesting. Not that I disagree, but why?

Because as long as the United States charges tuition for college, student loans are the only way that a majority of students can afford to go.

Why not simply offer some sort of alternative to high tuition costs, like more community colleges or caps on tuition for state schools?

You can do all of that and then some, and still not deal with the rising cost of college. The intention isn't to deal solely with publicly funded universities; that's part of it, of course, and should drive down prices. But X community college or Y state university, while perfectly reasonable choices in their own right, aren't Harvard. So, if anything, student loans would be an equalizer.

Harvard is a state university, lol.


Harvard's a state university?! Considering that I'm still bleeding debt from my three years there, I'd say there isn't a single way it received public funding.

I thought it had state funding. Guess I'm going insane lol...


Haha I wish!

I'd take it a bit further than tuition caps -- which would mean salary caps -- and just fully subsidize pre-k to undergrad education.

I can agree with that in principle, but where does the money come from to finance that? Cash-strapped as most nations are, it hardly seems practical to make undergrad free, even though pre-K should be.

Other countries that have tried it have seen huge returns, so in the short term it ends up being expensive, but it pays for itself over the long term. There are a number of ways to finance it -- slash a bunch of frivolous military spending to pay for it, raise taxes, etc. -- or even some moderate cost-cutting measures, such as allowing students to defer payments until after they graduate from a statement university, and then pay a small percentage of their income after they find full unemployment. That way, there would be a constant pool of funding for incoming students. That isn't exactly universal higher education, but it's probably a decent substitute that wouldn't require a massive tax hike that only myself and a few other cray libs would love, lol.

I am just concerned that additional spending at this moment would be hard...and there is no political will in Congress for the military cuts or tax hikes. Ultimately, I would simply advise waiting until we're in a more stable place economically before we try that.

I agree with you that the political capital simply isn't there, but it isn't there for gun background checks, or a farm bill, and it's hardly there for a debt limit increase. It could just be that I live in a dream world -- probably a byproduct of the academia bubble I live in (where there are tons of conservatives...but don't tell them that!) -- but I would still try it at this point. Of course, I also want higher deficits and more aggressive Fed action, but we both know how unlikely all of that is.

It depends also on what you mean by more stable. To me that means normal nominal interest rates, U3 and U6 unemployment rates in line, LFR back at about 66% which was its pre-crisis level, etc. At that time, we would probably want to start paying down the deficit and the Fed would be in full force, so monetary offset would be applicable. We'd still see benefits from it, sure, but not as widespread as we would if we did it during a downturn.
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bsh1
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7/16/2014 12:39:57 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/16/2014 12:34:49 AM, YYW wrote:
At 7/16/2014 12:32:41 AM, bsh1 wrote:
I thought it had state funding. Guess I'm going insane lol...

It's got lots of public funding...

Not in that sense...in the sense that it was primarily funded by the state.
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"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

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