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On the differences between voters

thett3
Posts: 14,378
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8/21/2014 12:36:45 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I've been saying for a while that people who experienced real world debate tend to vote differently than DDO natives who's only debating experience comes from this site. This is not meant in a finger wagging way, as online written debate is different from real world live debate and paradigms have to adjust accordingly. Still, it's interesting to note how different the decision making processes sometimes are.

The debatability vs. wylted debate (http://www.debate.org...) is instructive because it was a decision that, by almost all accounts, essentially came down to BOP. Thus the debate allows us to observe how BOP is interpreted differently by the different groups.

The debate had 15 votes. Of these, 6 (myself, Zaradi, Bluesteel, Whiteflame, Raisor, and YYW) I know experienced real world debate. Those individuals voted overwhemingly for the affirmative by a margin of 19-3 points, with a ballot count of 5-1.

The other 9 voters narrowly voted neg by a margin of 16-15 points, although the ballot count was 5-4 in favor of aff (the disparity existing because the old ballot is stupid).

I don't know what to make of this information or if it's even relevant, or if this is a trend that exists in other debates, but I found it interesting.
DDO Vice President

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"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

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: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
thett3
Posts: 14,378
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8/21/2014 12:39:58 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/21/2014 12:37:36 PM, Jedi4 wrote:
Small sample size, not double blind. Fail

I literally said at the end that I'm not sure if this is a trend that exists in other debates, but that it's interesting to note the disparity on that specific debate. The failure here is on your part.
DDO Vice President

#StandwithBossy

#UnbanTheMadman

#BetOnThett

"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
Jedi4
Posts: 330
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8/21/2014 12:42:19 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/21/2014 12:39:58 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 8/21/2014 12:37:36 PM, Jedi4 wrote:
Small sample size, not double blind. Fail

I literally said at the end that I'm not sure if this is a trend that exists in other debates, but that it's interesting to note the disparity on that specific debate. The failure here is on your part.

You heavily implied that it was absolute proof
thett3
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8/21/2014 12:43:48 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/21/2014 12:42:19 PM, Jedi4 wrote:
At 8/21/2014 12:39:58 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 8/21/2014 12:37:36 PM, Jedi4 wrote:
Small sample size, not double blind. Fail

I literally said at the end that I'm not sure if this is a trend that exists in other debates, but that it's interesting to note the disparity on that specific debate. The failure here is on your part.

You heavily implied that it was absolute proof

If constantly acknowledging that this wasn't meant as proof of anything but was an interesting case study counts as implying that this is absolute proof of...something then yeah, you're right.
DDO Vice President

#StandwithBossy

#UnbanTheMadman

#BetOnThett

"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
Jedi4
Posts: 330
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8/21/2014 12:44:28 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/21/2014 12:43:48 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 8/21/2014 12:42:19 PM, Jedi4 wrote:
At 8/21/2014 12:39:58 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 8/21/2014 12:37:36 PM, Jedi4 wrote:
Small sample size, not double blind. Fail

I literally said at the end that I'm not sure if this is a trend that exists in other debates, but that it's interesting to note the disparity on that specific debate. The failure here is on your part.

You heavily implied that it was absolute proof

If constantly acknowledging that this wasn't meant as proof of anything but was an interesting case study counts as implying that this is absolute proof of...something then yeah, you're right.

Then why post?
thett3
Posts: 14,378
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8/21/2014 12:45:09 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/21/2014 12:44:28 PM, Jedi4 wrote:
At 8/21/2014 12:43:48 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 8/21/2014 12:42:19 PM, Jedi4 wrote:
At 8/21/2014 12:39:58 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 8/21/2014 12:37:36 PM, Jedi4 wrote:
Small sample size, not double blind. Fail

I literally said at the end that I'm not sure if this is a trend that exists in other debates, but that it's interesting to note the disparity on that specific debate. The failure here is on your part.

You heavily implied that it was absolute proof

If constantly acknowledging that this wasn't meant as proof of anything but was an interesting case study counts as implying that this is absolute proof of...something then yeah, you're right.

Then why post?

You should work on your reading comprehension
DDO Vice President

#StandwithBossy

#UnbanTheMadman

#BetOnThett

"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
Jedi4
Posts: 330
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8/21/2014 12:46:07 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/21/2014 12:45:09 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 8/21/2014 12:44:28 PM, Jedi4 wrote:
At 8/21/2014 12:43:48 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 8/21/2014 12:42:19 PM, Jedi4 wrote:
At 8/21/2014 12:39:58 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 8/21/2014 12:37:36 PM, Jedi4 wrote:
Small sample size, not double blind. Fail

I literally said at the end that I'm not sure if this is a trend that exists in other debates, but that it's interesting to note the disparity on that specific debate. The failure here is on your part.

You heavily implied that it was absolute proof

If constantly acknowledging that this wasn't meant as proof of anything but was an interesting case study counts as implying that this is absolute proof of...something then yeah, you're right.

Then why post?

You should work on your reading comprehension

You should work on your mom
Jedi4
Posts: 330
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8/21/2014 12:48:32 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/21/2014 12:45:09 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 8/21/2014 12:44:28 PM, Jedi4 wrote:
At 8/21/2014 12:43:48 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 8/21/2014 12:42:19 PM, Jedi4 wrote:
At 8/21/2014 12:39:58 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 8/21/2014 12:37:36 PM, Jedi4 wrote:
Small sample size, not double blind. Fail

I literally said at the end that I'm not sure if this is a trend that exists in other debates, but that it's interesting to note the disparity on that specific debate. The failure here is on your part.

You heavily implied that it was absolute proof

If constantly acknowledging that this wasn't meant as proof of anything but was an interesting case study counts as implying that this is absolute proof of...something then yeah, you're right.

Then why post?

You should work on your reading comprehension

Prove your worth. Fite me irl. IM a master at krav maga!
bluesteel
Posts: 12,301
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8/21/2014 2:19:10 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/21/2014 12:45:54 PM, Cermank wrote:
That's actually really interesting. Why do you think that is?

People who only experienced debate on DDO are more likely to assign unwinnable BOP's for a variety of reasons. The fairness of the topic is a much bigger concern in competitive debate, when you're picking a topic that every single high schooler in the event has to debate.
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)
Cermank
Posts: 3,773
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8/21/2014 2:47:05 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/21/2014 2:19:10 PM, bluesteel wrote:
At 8/21/2014 12:45:54 PM, Cermank wrote:
That's actually really interesting. Why do you think that is?

People who only experienced debate on DDO are more likely to assign unwinnable BOP's for a variety of reasons. The fairness of the topic is a much bigger concern in competitive debate, when you're picking a topic that every single high schooler in the event has to debate.

Oh yeah, makes sense.
YYW
Posts: 36,392
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8/21/2014 3:02:22 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/21/2014 12:36:45 PM, thett3 wrote:
I've been saying for a while that people who experienced real world debate tend to vote differently than DDO natives who's only debating experience comes from this site. This is not meant in a finger wagging way, as online written debate is different from real world live debate and paradigms have to adjust accordingly. Still, it's interesting to note how different the decision making processes sometimes are.

Well, I'm ok with finger wagging. Those who have actually done this as a competitive exercise in the real world bring a level of competence to the table that DDO natives simply do not have. This does not mean that non-DDO natives are inherently better, necessarily smarter or anything else -but it does mean that on some level there is a conceptual understanding of things like a "burden of proof" which we bring to the table that DDO natives just don't have. That is not to say that we all agree on what a "burden of proof" is, so much as it is to point out that the difference between someone with real-world debating experience is less likely to use their own beliefs as a benchmark against which they measure other people's debates, which I think was more or less a trend in the debate you've referenced in this OP.

The debatability vs. wylted debate (http://www.debate.org...) is instructive because it was a decision that, by almost all accounts, essentially came down to BOP. Thus the debate allows us to observe how BOP is interpreted differently by the different groups.

You're right, and I think one additional benefit of having read the RFD's written by DDO natives is that those RFD's showcase the vast difference between, say, a voter like Ajabi or Schademe (neither of whom judged the debate correctly, and both of whom voted incorrectly and for the wrong reasons) and a voter like any one of the six you listed below.

The debate had 15 votes. Of these, 6 (myself, Zaradi, Bluesteel, Whiteflame, Raisor, and YYW) I know experienced real world debate. Those individuals voted overwhemingly for the affirmative by a margin of 19-3 points, with a ballot count of 5-1.

The other 9 voters narrowly voted neg by a margin of 16-15 points, although the ballot count was 5-4 in favor of aff (the disparity existing because the old ballot is stupid).

I don't know what to make of this information or if it's even relevant, or if this is a trend that exists in other debates, but I found it interesting.

I am reluctant to use this debate as evidence of a general trend, but I think that each RFD cast for Wylted represents a case of uniquely bad voting. Voting on resolutions which involve provable and falsifiable claims is not a subjective exercise, and I think that (especially one voter) errs to the extent that she views "all opinions" as equally valid. That is mistaken, because justing claims which require empirical evidence in order to be sustained is not a subjective exercise. It is only a question of whether there was or was not sufficient evidence presented to sustain the claim. If yes, then the person making the claim wins. If no, then the person who is negating the claim wins.

There was some general confusion about how the BOP works with a resolution which was negatively stated (where negative is the opposite of positive). The reason for that confusion was because of an absence of conceptual understanding of what a burden of proof actually is. Because DDO natives tend to place more emphasis on the word "burden" in the context of the phrase "burden of proof" they think that any "burden" of proof" must be "burdensome." This is mistaken, as a BOP only requires sufficient evidence to show that a claim is the case. It may be, but is not necessarily, burdensome.

I think that additionally, Liz's actual burden (that is to say, what she had to say in order to get any judge who voted on her debate to vote for her) was a bit tangled, because she was arguing against conventional wisdom -which is what voters like Schadem brought to the table. So, because Schdeme's vote was based not on what "actually" happened in the debate but based on what she thought she knew about video games, her vote is objectively bad because it brings material information that was both erroneous and extraneous to the debate. This is, however, normal, because people measure new information against the information they think they know -and it is also why we strike jurors who might let their biases unfairly affect their judgment in trial. Unfortunately, we don't always have a mechanism here to strike bad judges other than nominating only those judges which we know to be acceptable to vote in a panel.

That said, the reason that this debate is so interesting is because even though it was incredibly simple to judge (like, really simple), there were lots of opportunities for people to screw up and many did.
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Linkish1O2
Posts: 2,003
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8/21/2014 5:01:59 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Bumpers
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Raisor
Posts: 4,466
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8/21/2014 6:13:37 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/21/2014 12:36:45 PM, thett3 wrote:
I've been saying for a while that people who experienced real world debate tend to vote differently than DDO natives who's only debating experience comes from this site. This is not meant in a finger wagging way, as online written debate is different from real world live debate and paradigms have to adjust accordingly. Still, it's interesting to note how different the decision making processes sometimes are.

The debatability vs. wylted debate (http://www.debate.org...) is instructive because it was a decision that, by almost all accounts, essentially came down to BOP. Thus the debate allows us to observe how BOP is interpreted differently by the different groups.

The debate had 15 votes. Of these, 6 (myself, Zaradi, Bluesteel, Whiteflame, Raisor, and YYW) I know experienced real world debate. Those individuals voted overwhemingly for the affirmative by a margin of 19-3 points, with a ballot count of 5-1.

The other 9 voters narrowly voted neg by a margin of 16-15 points, although the ballot count was 5-4 in favor of aff (the disparity existing because the old ballot is stupid).

I don't know what to make of this information or if it's even relevant, or if this is a trend that exists in other debates, but I found it interesting.

Cool. Do another one.