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Operation: Passive Blade

MysticEgg
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8/29/2014 4:35:06 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Many members of the DDO community have complained about the bias present on the voting system; others claim there is no bias.

I assert that there is bias in the voting, mostly confirmation bias. But, we can combat it.

Introducing, Operation: Passive Blade. OPB starts here. Its goal? To reduce bias in the voting system.

The first phase is to identify problems with the current voting system. Then, we must suggest ways to improve it. Relatively recently, updates have allowed DDO to take steps forward, but I think we can keep going.

Here's my first suggestion:

DO NOT allow people - save the debaters - to see who's winning in the voting period, until after they have voted OR until the voting period is over.

This is not perfect, and I can see ways around it, but curbing how easy it is to let others fundamentally influence you with "yup, what he said" is a good move to make, in order to stop bias.
YYW
Posts: 36,289
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8/29/2014 4:37:16 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/29/2014 4:35:06 PM, MysticEgg wrote:
DO NOT allow people - save the debaters - to see who's winning in the voting period, until after they have voted OR until the voting period is over.

I don't see how anyone could argue against this. It's a fantastic idea, and one which has needed to be implemented for some time.
Tsar of DDO
MysticEgg
Posts: 524
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8/29/2014 4:38:56 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/29/2014 4:37:16 PM, YYW wrote:
At 8/29/2014 4:35:06 PM, MysticEgg wrote:
DO NOT allow people - save the debaters - to see who's winning in the voting period, until after they have voted OR until the voting period is over.

I don't see how anyone could argue against this. It's a fantastic idea, and one which has needed to be implemented for some time.

It's hardly an original idea, and I don't take credit for it. But I am starting to push this forward, because it would solve so many problems.
ESocialBookworm
Posts: 14,364
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8/29/2014 4:41:11 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/29/2014 4:37:16 PM, YYW wrote:
At 8/29/2014 4:35:06 PM, MysticEgg wrote:
DO NOT allow people - save the debaters - to see who's winning in the voting period, until after they have voted OR until the voting period is over.

I don't see how anyone could argue against this. It's a fantastic idea, and one which has needed to be implemented for some time.

I thought about it once as well... the problem- votebombing won't be seen till the last minute.
Solonkr~
I don't care about whether an ideology is "necessary" or not,
I care about how to solve problems,
which is what everyone else should also care about.

Ken~
In essence, the world is fucked up and you can either ignore it, become cynical or bitter about it.

Me~
"BAILEY + SOLON = SAILEY
MY SHIP SAILEY MUST SAIL"

SCREW THAT SHIZ #BANNIE = BAILEY & ANNIE

P.S. Shipped Sailey before it was cannon bitches.
YYW
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8/29/2014 4:43:38 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/29/2014 4:41:11 PM, ESocialBookworm wrote:
At 8/29/2014 4:37:16 PM, YYW wrote:
At 8/29/2014 4:35:06 PM, MysticEgg wrote:
DO NOT allow people - save the debaters - to see who's winning in the voting period, until after they have voted OR until the voting period is over.

I don't see how anyone could argue against this. It's a fantastic idea, and one which has needed to be implemented for some time.

I thought about it once as well... the problem- votebombing won't be seen till the last minute.

I think that it's up to the debaters themselves to deal with vote bombing.
Tsar of DDO
ESocialBookworm
Posts: 14,364
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8/29/2014 4:46:51 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/29/2014 4:43:38 PM, YYW wrote:
At 8/29/2014 4:41:11 PM, ESocialBookworm wrote:
At 8/29/2014 4:37:16 PM, YYW wrote:
At 8/29/2014 4:35:06 PM, MysticEgg wrote:
DO NOT allow people - save the debaters - to see who's winning in the voting period, until after they have voted OR until the voting period is over.

I don't see how anyone could argue against this. It's a fantastic idea, and one which has needed to be implemented for some time.

I thought about it once as well... the problem- votebombing won't be seen till the last minute.

I think that it's up to the debaters themselves to deal with vote bombing.

But if they can't see the votes till after they voted then the debaters won't be able to see it. And if they do, they can contact their friends to vote.
Solonkr~
I don't care about whether an ideology is "necessary" or not,
I care about how to solve problems,
which is what everyone else should also care about.

Ken~
In essence, the world is fucked up and you can either ignore it, become cynical or bitter about it.

Me~
"BAILEY + SOLON = SAILEY
MY SHIP SAILEY MUST SAIL"

SCREW THAT SHIZ #BANNIE = BAILEY & ANNIE

P.S. Shipped Sailey before it was cannon bitches.
Ragnar
Posts: 1,658
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8/29/2014 4:49:54 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Fog Of War voting would need other systems in place first, such as no character limit on votes. Right now the comment section votes would be highly informative (but somewhat misleading).

Beggars would be unaffected when getting their friends to vote for them.

On the up side, at least fluffers would be wearing blindfolds, which would be a little less creepy.
Unofficial DDO Guide: http://goo.gl...
(It's probably the best help resource here, other than talking to people...)

Voting Standards: https://goo.gl...

And please disable Smart-Quotes: https://goo.gl...
YYW
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8/29/2014 4:50:20 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/29/2014 4:46:51 PM, ESocialBookworm wrote:
At 8/29/2014 4:43:38 PM, YYW wrote:
At 8/29/2014 4:41:11 PM, ESocialBookworm wrote:
At 8/29/2014 4:37:16 PM, YYW wrote:
At 8/29/2014 4:35:06 PM, MysticEgg wrote:
DO NOT allow people - save the debaters - to see who's winning in the voting period, until after they have voted OR until the voting period is over.

I don't see how anyone could argue against this. It's a fantastic idea, and one which has needed to be implemented for some time.

I thought about it once as well... the problem- votebombing won't be seen till the last minute.

I think that it's up to the debaters themselves to deal with vote bombing.

But if they can't see the votes till after they voted then the debaters won't be able to see it. And if they do, they can contact their friends to vote.

Mystic egg said this:

DO NOT allow people - save the debaters - to see who's winning in the voting period, until after they have voted OR until the voting period is over.

What that means is that no person other than the debaters themselves could see who is winning in the voting period... the only problem is that people could still post RFD's in comments. But, a solution to that would be to allow 10k characters for an RFD.
Tsar of DDO
bladerunner060
Posts: 7,126
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8/29/2014 4:50:23 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/29/2014 4:41:11 PM, ESocialBookworm wrote:
At 8/29/2014 4:37:16 PM, YYW wrote:
At 8/29/2014 4:35:06 PM, MysticEgg wrote:
DO NOT allow people - save the debaters - to see who's winning in the voting period, until after they have voted OR until the voting period is over.

I don't see how anyone could argue against this. It's a fantastic idea, and one which has needed to be implemented for some time.

I thought about it once as well... the problem- votebombing won't be seen till the last minute.

If there is a Votebomb, airmax can remove it after the end of the voting period as much as before the voting period.

It would mean, though, that those accused of/committing a VB accidentally (if we assume some measure of good faith) wouldn't have a chance to fix them, since they'd only be removed after the voting period was over.
Assistant moderator to airmax1227. PM me with any questions or concerns!
ESocialBookworm
Posts: 14,364
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8/29/2014 4:51:26 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/29/2014 4:50:23 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 8/29/2014 4:41:11 PM, ESocialBookworm wrote:
At 8/29/2014 4:37:16 PM, YYW wrote:
At 8/29/2014 4:35:06 PM, MysticEgg wrote:
DO NOT allow people - save the debaters - to see who's winning in the voting period, until after they have voted OR until the voting period is over.

I don't see how anyone could argue against this. It's a fantastic idea, and one which has needed to be implemented for some time.

I thought about it once as well... the problem- votebombing won't be seen till the last minute.

If there is a Votebomb, airmax can remove it after the end of the voting period as much as before the voting period.

It would mean, though, that those accused of/committing a VB accidentally (if we assume some measure of good faith) wouldn't have a chance to fix them, since they'd only be removed after the voting period was over.

I think Max said before that even if he removes the votebomb off a debate, that once the winner is decided it wouldn't change though. I could be wrong tho...
Solonkr~
I don't care about whether an ideology is "necessary" or not,
I care about how to solve problems,
which is what everyone else should also care about.

Ken~
In essence, the world is fucked up and you can either ignore it, become cynical or bitter about it.

Me~
"BAILEY + SOLON = SAILEY
MY SHIP SAILEY MUST SAIL"

SCREW THAT SHIZ #BANNIE = BAILEY & ANNIE

P.S. Shipped Sailey before it was cannon bitches.
MysticEgg
Posts: 524
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8/29/2014 5:05:57 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
We're getting a really fast and strong response from the DDO folks. This is good!

EDITS:

-Moderators as well as debaters should have access to votes during the voting period.
-To counter RDFs in the comments section, a 10k max. character limit should be implemented.

--Possibly, all-points-to-one-guy-votes should first go through a moderator for validation.--
YYW
Posts: 36,289
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8/29/2014 5:08:29 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/29/2014 4:49:54 PM, Ragnar wrote:
Fog Of War voting would need other systems in place first, such as no character limit on votes.

I disagree. If 10k characters isn't sufficient, then we've got bigger problems.

Right now the comment section votes would be highly informative (but somewhat misleading).

Perhaps we mute comment sections?

Beggars would be unaffected when getting their friends to vote for them.

But, there's no way to fix that. It's not a problem unless you've got a solution... lol

On the up side, at least fluffers would be wearing blindfolds, which would be a little less creepy.

Bingo.
Tsar of DDO
mishapqueen
Posts: 3,995
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8/29/2014 6:45:49 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/29/2014 4:37:16 PM, YYW wrote:
At 8/29/2014 4:35:06 PM, MysticEgg wrote:
DO NOT allow people - save the debaters - to see who's winning in the voting period, until after they have voted OR until the voting period is over.

I don't see how anyone could argue against this. It's a fantastic idea, and one which has needed to be implemented for some time.

I'd be in favor of it too. Maybe also prevent people from seeing the RFD's and the points each judge gave until after you cast a vote.
You cannot choose whether or not you will live by rules, but you can choose which rules you will live by. --Me

"I was wrong. Squirrels are objectively superior to bunnies in every conceivable dimension."
--Joey

"Silence is golden, duct tape is silver" --PetersSmith

Nunc aut Numquam
Ragnar
Posts: 1,658
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8/30/2014 11:57:48 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/29/2014 5:08:29 PM, YYW wrote:
At 8/29/2014 4:49:54 PM, Ragnar wrote:
Fog Of War voting would need other systems in place first, such as no character limit on votes.
I disagree. If 10k characters isn't sufficient, then we've got bigger problems.
You disagree that we would need other systems in place before first, then suggest one... As for the suggestion of 10k, it would be a major step in the right direction, but there are already numerous RFDs longer than that (any RFD going more than 5 parts in the comment section).

Right now the comment section votes would be highly informative (but somewhat misleading).
Perhaps we mute comment sections?
I can see that becoming very confusing quickly.

Beggars would be unaffected when getting their friends to vote for them.
But, there's no way to fix that. It's not a problem unless you've got a solution... lol
"It's not a problem unless you've got a solution... lol" please tell me that was a joke? If not a joke, than by your definition there is no problem in the Gaza Strip, as no solution has been found; which is quite laughable.

On the up side, at least fluffers would be wearing blindfolds, which would be a little less creepy.
Bingo.
Unofficial DDO Guide: http://goo.gl...
(It's probably the best help resource here, other than talking to people...)

Voting Standards: https://goo.gl...

And please disable Smart-Quotes: https://goo.gl...
YYW
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8/30/2014 1:30:29 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/30/2014 11:57:48 AM, Ragnar wrote:
At 8/29/2014 5:08:29 PM, YYW wrote:
At 8/29/2014 4:49:54 PM, Ragnar wrote:
Fog Of War voting would need other systems in place first, such as no character limit on votes.
I disagree. If 10k characters isn't sufficient, then we've got bigger problems.
You disagree that we would need other systems in place before first, then suggest one... As for the suggestion of 10k, it would be a major step in the right direction, but there are already numerous RFDs longer than that (any RFD going more than 5 parts in the comment section).

Indeed, but that doesn't mean that an RFD must necessarily be audaciously long. While in some cases there could be certain circumstances that an RFD longer than 10k characters is necessary, that is not the case for the vast majority of debates, and therefore because 10k would be sufficient for the vast majority of debates that is a good standard to have.

I want to point out as well that I'm explicitly discouraging RFD's longer than 10k characters, and the reason for that is this: by having a limit of that length, we are both enabling judges to explain their rationale in a reasonably detailed way, but we are not giving them so much space that they may type something more in keeping with the length of an encyclopedic entry. This is to force judges to write all and only that which is most critical to their decision, and to give them adequate space to do so.

Right now the comment section votes would be highly informative (but somewhat misleading).
Perhaps we mute comment sections?
I can see that becoming very confusing quickly.

In what way would muting the comment section until the end of a debate become confusing?

Beggars would be unaffected when getting their friends to vote for them.
But, there's no way to fix that. It's not a problem unless you've got a solution... lol
"It's not a problem unless you've got a solution... lol" please tell me that was a joke? If not a joke, than by your definition there is no problem in the Gaza Strip, as no solution has been found; which is quite laughable.

We're not talking about the Gaza strip, we're talking about RFD's. What's amusing is your attempting to draw an analogy between the two. I don't mean that in a demeaning way, even though that is probably unavoidably the tone of my comment.

On the up side, at least fluffers would be wearing blindfolds, which would be a little less creepy.
Bingo.
Tsar of DDO
xXCryptoXx
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8/30/2014 1:33:15 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/29/2014 4:37:16 PM, YYW wrote:
At 8/29/2014 4:35:06 PM, MysticEgg wrote:
DO NOT allow people - save the debaters - to see who's winning in the voting period, until after they have voted OR until the voting period is over.

I don't see how anyone could argue against this. It's a fantastic idea, and one which has needed to be implemented for some time.

In addition, voters should not know who has voted, but only know how many have voted.
Nolite Timere
YYW
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8/30/2014 1:34:10 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/30/2014 1:33:15 PM, xXCryptoXx wrote:
At 8/29/2014 4:37:16 PM, YYW wrote:
At 8/29/2014 4:35:06 PM, MysticEgg wrote:
DO NOT allow people - save the debaters - to see who's winning in the voting period, until after they have voted OR until the voting period is over.

I don't see how anyone could argue against this. It's a fantastic idea, and one which has needed to be implemented for some time.

In addition, voters should not know who has voted, but only know how many have voted.

I think that's reasonable, yeah.
Tsar of DDO
Ragnar
Posts: 1,658
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8/30/2014 2:46:52 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/30/2014 1:30:29 PM, YYW wrote:
At 8/30/2014 11:57:48 AM, Ragnar wrote:
At 8/29/2014 5:08:29 PM, YYW wrote:
At 8/29/2014 4:49:54 PM, Ragnar wrote:
Right now the comment section votes would be highly informative (but somewhat misleading).
Perhaps we mute comment sections?
I can see that becoming very confusing quickly.
In what way would muting the comment section until the end of a debate become confusing?
Assuming people can still post comments, but no one can see them until after however many weeks or months the debate is up for the vote, suddenly there's a jumble of visible comments in no particular order, many saying the same thing. Plus there would be no ability for people to get anything clarified in the comment section. ... I simply view the costs to outweigh to benefits on this one.

Beggars would be unaffected when getting their friends to vote for them.
But, there's no way to fix that. It's not a problem unless you've got a solution... lol
"It's not a problem unless you've got a solution... lol" please tell me that was a joke? If not a joke, than by your definition there is no problem in the Gaza Strip, as no solution has been found; which is quite laughable.
We're not talking about the Gaza strip, we're talking about RFD's. What's amusing is your attempting to draw an analogy between the two. I don't mean that in a demeaning way, even though that is probably unavoidably the tone of my comment.
You insist that nothing is a problem, unless a solution is offered. Problems are not defined by their solutions. Lets say you lose a leg, and I say 'It's not a problem unless you've got a solution... You don't have a solution, so the missing leg isn't a problem' I would be a greatly lacking in intelligence. Even in the realm of RFDs this holds, it's problematic that many users vote based on their bias regardless of how weak a case one side makes; it's problematic that many users show no signs of having read DDO's How To Vote article; RFDs that are too short are often a problem... Problems clearly exist before solutions are found.
Unofficial DDO Guide: http://goo.gl...
(It's probably the best help resource here, other than talking to people...)

Voting Standards: https://goo.gl...

And please disable Smart-Quotes: https://goo.gl...
YYW
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8/30/2014 3:07:47 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/30/2014 2:46:52 PM, Ragnar wrote:
At 8/30/2014 1:30:29 PM, YYW wrote:
At 8/30/2014 11:57:48 AM, Ragnar wrote:
At 8/29/2014 5:08:29 PM, YYW wrote:
At 8/29/2014 4:49:54 PM, Ragnar wrote:
Right now the comment section votes would be highly informative (but somewhat misleading).
Perhaps we mute comment sections?
I can see that becoming very confusing quickly.
In what way would muting the comment section until the end of a debate become confusing?
Assuming people can still post comments, but no one can see them until after however many weeks or months the debate is up for the vote, suddenly there's a jumble of visible comments in no particular order, many saying the same thing. Plus there would be no ability for people to get anything clarified in the comment section. ... I simply view the costs to outweigh to benefits on this one.

Muting the comment section during debating and voting does not mean that it's always going to be muted. Did that occur to you, or not? I'm guessing it didn't, so let me clarify:

Just because the comment section could be muted during debating/voting does not mean that it would always be muted forever. The fact that the comment section will still exist, and I mentioned muting it in no case other than when debating/voting was going on kind of implies that.

Are we on the same page now, or are there more nonexistent costs you'd like to explore?

Beggars would be unaffected when getting their friends to vote for them.
But, there's no way to fix that. It's not a problem unless you've got a solution... lol
"It's not a problem unless you've got a solution... lol" please tell me that was a joke? If not a joke, than by your definition there is no problem in the Gaza Strip, as no solution has been found; which is quite laughable.
We're not talking about the Gaza strip, we're talking about RFD's. What's amusing is your attempting to draw an analogy between the two. I don't mean that in a demeaning way, even though that is probably unavoidably the tone of my comment.
You insist that nothing is a problem, unless a solution is offered. Problems are not defined by their solutions. Lets say you lose a leg, and I say 'It's not a problem unless you've got a solution... You don't have a solution, so the missing leg isn't a problem' I would be a greatly lacking in intelligence. Even in the realm of RFDs this holds, it's problematic that many users vote based on their bias regardless of how weak a case one side makes; it's problematic that many users show no signs of having read DDO's How To Vote article; RFDs that are too short are often a problem... Problems clearly exist before solutions are found.

The principle that "it's not a problem unless you've got a solution" is a pretty standard way of dealing with things in businesses and organizations. It's basically a way to keep people from complaining about stuff that they don't know how to solve, and to encourage people to find creative solutions before they talk about problems. You may have your disagreement with that, which is fine, but it's still how things generally are.

I'm guessing based on your two (rather absurd -at the risk of being curt) analogies you've made so far is enough to indicate that you've never been exposed to that before -which tells me you've never taken any course ever in business management, or anything like that. That's fine, but discussing things like losing legs and the Gaza strip doesn't get us closer to figuring out how to solve the voting problem which is going on now. That's why I've dismissed them, because it's irrelevant.

You're more than welcome to continue to litigate that issue to any extent you like (on the level of whether 'it's not a problem unless you've got a solution' is a good principle to follow) or whether it was correctly applied here. While you're welcome to embrace opinions which are just wrong, that is not going to mitigate the fact that in the case presently before us, the problem you cited does not have a solution that I'm aware of.

If you have a solution to the problem you cited, please, avail yourself to share it now rather than drag the conversation from something that's productive to an exercise in futility.
Tsar of DDO
debatability
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8/30/2014 9:05:04 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/29/2014 4:35:06 PM, MysticEgg wrote:

DO NOT allow people - save the debaters - to see who's winning in the voting period, until after they have voted OR until the voting period is over.

I love the idea, but I feel like it could easily be abused if the debaters were able to see the votes as well. I'm sure many debaters would tell potential voters what various RFD's have said. Also, what about voters who take the comment section into account? Even if there are no RFD's in the comments section, there will still be discussion pertaining to the debate.
Really, the only way to eliminate bias would be to block the votes / comments / and who is winning from both the voters and the debaters... which is a bit silly because even then (especially with somewhat popular debates) discussion over various debates outside the debate itself is inevitable.
Also, this idea doesn't even begin to tackle bias pertaining to the debater the voter likes more and the specific position on the topic that the voter likes more.

If this were to be an potential plan of action, I think it should be optional because I know that many people would abuse it if such a system were mandatory, making it (in many cases) counterproductive. I'm not fully against it and I feel like if this were a legitimate option, I might utilize it. However, I definitely have reservations.
Ragnar
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8/30/2014 9:44:57 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/30/2014 2:55:29 PM, YYW wrote:
@Ragnr

You've never taken, like, any business class ever, have you? lol
Nice Ad Hominem attack. The laughter, and intentional misspelling of my name really helps.
Unofficial DDO Guide: http://goo.gl...
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And please disable Smart-Quotes: https://goo.gl...
YYW
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8/30/2014 10:02:40 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/30/2014 9:44:57 PM, Ragnar wrote:
At 8/30/2014 2:55:29 PM, YYW wrote:
@Ragnr

You've never taken, like, any business class ever, have you? lol
Nice Ad Hominem attack. The laughter, and intentional misspelling of my name really helps.

Perhaps I was a bit cheeky, but actually, that's not an ad hom. It's an inference drawn from observable fact. Thought once more, we're talking about stuff that doesn't have a whole lot to do with the voting situation, meaning we're off topic, which is irksome.
Tsar of DDO
airmax1227
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8/31/2014 6:12:53 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/29/2014 4:51:26 PM, ESocialBookworm wrote:
At 8/29/2014 4:50:23 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 8/29/2014 4:41:11 PM, ESocialBookworm wrote:
At 8/29/2014 4:37:16 PM, YYW wrote:
At 8/29/2014 4:35:06 PM, MysticEgg wrote:
DO NOT allow people - save the debaters - to see who's winning in the voting period, until after they have voted OR until the voting period is over.

I don't see how anyone could argue against this. It's a fantastic idea, and one which has needed to be implemented for some time.

I thought about it once as well... the problem- votebombing won't be seen till the last minute.

If there is a Votebomb, airmax can remove it after the end of the voting period as much as before the voting period.

It would mean, though, that those accused of/committing a VB accidentally (if we assume some measure of good faith) wouldn't have a chance to fix them, since they'd only be removed after the voting period was over.

I think Max said before that even if he removes the votebomb off a debate, that once the winner is decided it wouldn't change though. I could be wrong tho...

There must have been a misunderstanding regarding what I said. If I remove a vote on a debate after the voting period ends, it will change the result of the debate if the removal of that vote changes who has accumulated the most points. So ultimately, a debater is never at risk of losing a debate due to a last second votebomb since it can always be removed, and the results of the debate changed to reflect that removal.
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MysticEgg
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8/31/2014 12:59:45 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/30/2014 1:02:45 PM, 9spaceking wrote:
is this named after Bladerunner? XD

Haha, no, although I can see your point. No, Bladerunner's certainly not passive. I was just thinking of "cool" words when used as a juxtaposition.
MysticEgg
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8/31/2014 1:03:50 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/30/2014 9:05:04 PM, debatability wrote:
At 8/29/2014 4:35:06 PM, MysticEgg wrote:

DO NOT allow people - save the debaters - to see who's winning in the voting period, until after they have voted OR until the voting period is over.

I love the idea, but I feel like it could easily be abused if the debaters were able to see the votes as well. I'm sure many debaters would tell potential voters what various RFD's have said. Also, what about voters who take the comment section into account? Even if there are no RFD's in the comments section, there will still be discussion pertaining to the debate.
Really, the only way to eliminate bias would be to block the votes / comments / and who is winning from both the voters and the debaters... which is a bit silly because even then (especially with somewhat popular debates) discussion over various debates outside the debate itself is inevitable.
Also, this idea doesn't even begin to tackle bias pertaining to the debater the voter likes more and the specific position on the topic that the voter likes more.

If this were to be an potential plan of action, I think it should be optional because I know that many people would abuse it if such a system were mandatory, making it (in many cases) counterproductive. I'm not fully against it and I feel like if this were a legitimate option, I might utilize it. However, I definitely have reservations.

I understand your counters, although I do not see how it will become counter-productive. At least, not more so than it already has the potential to be.
MysticEgg
Posts: 524
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8/31/2014 1:13:28 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
UPDATE:

-All agree changes should be made.
--Most agree that the basis of OPB will improve it, or shows potential.

I think blocking the comment system won't be "confusing", per se, but we shouldn't need to if we just make the character limit 10k!

Furthermore, stopping the debaters themselves from seeing the debates will solve many potential problems, such as:

-PM-ing friends and explaining RDFs that they cannot see.
--Posting updates to their debate's voting period.
--Generally by-passing the system.

I maintain the stance that moderators should access all debates, even their own. If a mod' violates the system, well, not really a good mod', huh?

So, current proposal:

-Block all persons' access to all votes during the voting period.
--Mods' are the exception the person rule.
--One's own vote is the exception to which votes are blocked from view.

Comments should not be blocked, but to solve the RDF in comments problem, make the voting character limit 10k.

This is how Operation: Passive Blade stands. Are there any objections or suggestions?

P.S. Thanks for the overwhelmingly positive feedback, guys!
debatability
Posts: 1,160
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8/31/2014 2:10:26 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/31/2014 1:13:28 PM, MysticEgg wrote:

-Block all persons' access to all votes during the voting period.
--Mods' are the exception the person rule.
--One's own vote is the exception to which votes are blocked from view.

I think that would be much more effective; however, we only have a couple mods, right? It would be really hard for them to go through every debate and make sure that each vote is appropriate. The reasons mods are able to catch vote bombs is because people report them, if no one sees votes... how will bad votes be reported? Obviously, this solution wouldn't eliminate bad voting.

To elaborate on the idea of this being counterproductive, I'm thinking that people cheating the system will cause a lot of unnecessary drama. Also, this system could make it less likely for mods to catch bad votes as I noted above. I feel like either this website would need moderaters there for the purpose of looking through votes, or else it would be really hard for the current mods to look through every vote on every debate.

I still think this is a really good idea, and though there are some flaws.... I would probably support this because in the long run (as long as the debaters dont see the votes / dont see who is winning) I think it could be very effective. In fact, I think my favorite part about this plan is that the debaters wouldn't see who is winning.... because I know many debaters contact judges that they know will vote for them when they start to lose. Hopefully, this would minimize this very real issue.