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ID: A Grand Idea for the DDO Community

Blade-of-Truth
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9/4/2014 3:39:52 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
The following is meant to be a good intellectual discussion. If you plan on posting on this thread please remember to respect the other users posts, ideas and argument structures. Thoughtful, provoking, constructive questions, comments, ideas and rebuttals are encouraged.

Today, I was pondering some of the "Big Issues" here on DDO. So far, the list of big issues are as follows:

"Abortion
"Affirmative Action
"Animal Rights
"Barack Obama
"Border Fence
"Capitalism
"Civil Unions
"Death Penalty
"Drug Legalization
"Electoral College
"Environmental Protection
"Estate Tax
"European Union
"Euthanasia
"Federal Reserve
"Flat Tax
"Free Trade
"Gay Marriage
"Global Warming Exists
"Globalization
"Gold Standard
"Gun Rights
"Homeschooling
"Internet Censorship
"Iran-Iraq War
"Labor Union
"Legalized Prostitution
"Medicaid & Medicare
"Medical Marijuana
"Military Intervention
"Minimum Wage
"National Health Care
"National Retail Sales Tax
"Occupy Movement
"Progressive Tax
"Racial Profiling
"Redistribution
"Smoking Ban
"Social Programs
"Social Security
"Socialism
"Stimulus Spending
"Term Limits
"Torture
"United Nations
"War in Afghanistan
"War on Terror
"Welfare

While the site itself provides summaries for both sides of these issues, I was thinking it would be great if we, as a community, could compile a list of the strongest arguments ever seen for either side of these big issues here on DDO.

What I mean is that if you are, for example, interested in the Pro side of Welfare, you will have a database of sorts that can refer you to the strongest arguments ever presented for that side by a fellow member. I see both positives and negatives to this:

Negatives:

It would take a great deal of time to find/compile the best arguments ever presented by a fellow debater for the big issue you are curious about.

We would need to create a standard for what is deemed best. A good starting point could be finding arguments that have yet to be defeated on either side of an issue.

Bias. I would imagine certain issues bringing in very biased proponents for either side. We would need to collaborate in finding a method that would weed those arguments out so as to remain as intellectually objective as we can while presenting the "best/strongest" arguments for either side.

Positives:

Challenge. Immediately, members interested in specific topics can see what issues need work on, or what issues present an undefeated argument which you might have the rebuttal for.

Starting off strong. New members would be able to see the strongest arguments that they can then apply in their own debates that are on such issues. Perhaps they have a new perspective on an old argument and will serve to strengthen it in their own way when using it as a contention.

Continuous collaboration. As with all things, arguments change shape over time. We can trace countless arguments which have since been defeated in modern times. It then follows that the arguments deemed by the community as the "strongest/best" would also change with the times. By DDO allowing for the natural flow of continuous input on these issues via debates utilizing strong arguments, it only follows that each and every person debating would in some way be truly contributing to the evolution of arguments presented on either side of these big issues. Of course we are in some way already doing that in the grand scheme of things, but by having such a feature as the one I am proposing, the debaters would literally have something they can look at, measure themselves by, and immediately depend on when creating their own arguments.

So what do you all think about this? Is it an idea worth pursuing as a community of contributors?
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9spaceking
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9/4/2014 3:45:01 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
good idea. We can just use the most voted on debate for gay marriage, IMO that one has the strongest points and most concise ones
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9spaceking
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9/4/2014 3:45:48 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
but I'm surprised God's Existence isn't a "big issue"...scientists are everywhere researching about it, religious people everywhere stand their ground for God...it's debated many many times...it should be considered a "Big Issue".
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Blade-of-Truth
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9/4/2014 3:53:05 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/4/2014 3:45:48 PM, 9spaceking wrote:
but I'm surprised God's Existence isn't a "big issue"...scientists are everywhere researching about it, religious people everywhere stand their ground for God...it's debated many many times...it should be considered a "Big Issue".

I kinda agree and was actually going to make a point about it being included in big issues but I'm sure DDO has its reasons for not including that. Airmax might know, hopefully he'll see this and can enlighten us.
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bossyburrito
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9/4/2014 5:32:30 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/4/2014 3:45:48 PM, 9spaceking wrote:
but I'm surprised God's Existence isn't a "big issue"...scientists are everywhere researching about it, religious people everywhere stand their ground for God...it's debated many many times...it should be considered a "Big Issue".

We already have a religion setting on our profiles, though.
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UchihaMadara
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9/4/2014 6:02:06 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/4/2014 3:39:52 PM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:

one other potential negative i can see is all debates starting to look identical because everyone is referring to the "database" and using the exact same arguments every time.
Blade-of-Truth
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9/4/2014 8:25:09 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/4/2014 5:10:49 PM, UchihaMadara wrote:
in other words, we select one or two of the best debates on each of those topics?

Kinda, I mean best debate doesn't necessarily imply the best arguments but that would definitely be a way to narrow down the search for best arguments.
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Blade-of-Truth
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9/4/2014 8:27:26 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/4/2014 6:02:06 PM, UchihaMadara wrote:
At 9/4/2014 3:39:52 PM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:

one other potential negative i can see is all debates starting to look identical because everyone is referring to the "database" and using the exact same arguments every time.

That's true. It's my hope that they wouldn't stay the same arguments every time though. That's to say, I wouldn't expect undefeated arguments or the such to remain so for long.
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bluesteel
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9/4/2014 9:43:32 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/4/2014 3:39:52 PM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
The following is meant to be a good intellectual discussion. If you plan on posting on this thread please remember to respect the other users posts, ideas and argument structures. Thoughtful, provoking, constructive questions, comments, ideas and rebuttals are encouraged.

Today, I was pondering some of the "Big Issues" here on DDO. So far, the list of big issues are as follows:

"Abortion
"Affirmative Action
"Animal Rights
"Barack Obama
"Border Fence
"Capitalism
"Civil Unions
"Death Penalty
"Drug Legalization
"Electoral College
"Environmental Protection
"Estate Tax
"European Union
"Euthanasia
"Federal Reserve
"Flat Tax
"Free Trade
"Gay Marriage
"Global Warming Exists
"Globalization
"Gold Standard
"Gun Rights
"Homeschooling
"Internet Censorship
"Iran-Iraq War
"Labor Union
"Legalized Prostitution
"Medicaid & Medicare
"Medical Marijuana
"Military Intervention
"Minimum Wage
"National Health Care
"National Retail Sales Tax
"Occupy Movement
"Progressive Tax
"Racial Profiling
"Redistribution
"Smoking Ban
"Social Programs
"Social Security
"Socialism
"Stimulus Spending
"Term Limits
"Torture
"United Nations
"War in Afghanistan
"War on Terror
"Welfare

While the site itself provides summaries for both sides of these issues, I was thinking it would be great if we, as a community, could compile a list of the strongest arguments ever seen for either side of these big issues here on DDO.

What I mean is that if you are, for example, interested in the Pro side of Welfare, you will have a database of sorts that can refer you to the strongest arguments ever presented for that side by a fellow member. I see both positives and negatives to this:

Negatives:

It would take a great deal of time to find/compile the best arguments ever presented by a fellow debater for the big issue you are curious about.

We would need to create a standard for what is deemed best. A good starting point could be finding arguments that have yet to be defeated on either side of an issue.

Bias. I would imagine certain issues bringing in very biased proponents for either side. We would need to collaborate in finding a method that would weed those arguments out so as to remain as intellectually objective as we can while presenting the "best/strongest" arguments for either side.

Positives:

Challenge. Immediately, members interested in specific topics can see what issues need work on, or what issues present an undefeated argument which you might have the rebuttal for.

Starting off strong. New members would be able to see the strongest arguments that they can then apply in their own debates that are on such issues. Perhaps they have a new perspective on an old argument and will serve to strengthen it in their own way when using it as a contention.

Continuous collaboration. As with all things, arguments change shape over time. We can trace countless arguments which have since been defeated in modern times. It then follows that the arguments deemed by the community as the "strongest/best" would also change with the times. By DDO allowing for the natural flow of continuous input on these issues via debates utilizing strong arguments, it only follows that each and every person debating would in some way be truly contributing to the evolution of arguments presented on either side of these big issues. Of course we are in some way already doing that in the grand scheme of things, but by having such a feature as the one I am proposing, the debaters would literally have something they can look at, measure themselves by, and immediately depend on when creating their own arguments.



So what do you all think about this? Is it an idea worth pursuing as a community of contributors?

I like the idea a lot. I think you should focus the discussion on only one topic per week so it can get rather in-depth. And that it be limited only to "discussion" (i.e. people summarizing the best arguments in their own words) and not posting links to other people's arguments or their own debates, since outside reading assignments are not a discussion. You don't want to turn this into just another "post your favorite debates" thread.

I'll also say I don't think some of the big issues are debate resolutions, so you can't really pick those. Like, is it really as simple as being "pro" or "con" animal rights? Most anti-PETA people wouldn't argue that animals rights should be non-existent. Torturing pets is seen as cruel and inhumane by pretty much everyone. Also, the War in Afghanistan is a pretty moot point. It's hard to say you are for or against it. What are you for or against? The initial invasion? Kicking out the Taliban? What we did subsequently? How long we stayed there? If "Con" is against having gone in at all and Pro can argue that we should have had "a" war, just not the one we actually had, that's a really Pro-biased topic.

I guess you could still pick those Big Issues and for the bad ones, just do some resolutional analysis about it to see why it's a bad debate topic and doesn't belong as a Big Issue. Maybe that will even get Juggle to rethink the Big Issues and change a few things.
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)
UchihaMadara
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9/4/2014 9:57:47 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/4/2014 9:43:32 PM, bluesteel wrote:

I like the idea a lot. I think you should focus the discussion on only one topic per week so it can get rather in-depth. And that it be limited only to "discussion" (i.e. people summarizing the best arguments in their own words) and not posting links to other people's arguments or their own debates, since outside reading assignments are not a discussion. You don't want to turn this into just another "post your favorite debates" thread.

I'll also say I don't think some of the big issues are debate resolutions, so you can't really pick those. Like, is it really as simple as being "pro" or "con" animal rights? Most anti-PETA people wouldn't argue that animals rights should be non-existent. Torturing pets is seen as cruel and inhumane by pretty much everyone. Also, the War in Afghanistan is a pretty moot point. It's hard to say you are for or against it. What are you for or against? The initial invasion? Kicking out the Taliban? What we did subsequently? How long we stayed there? If "Con" is against having gone in at all and Pro can argue that we should have had "a" war, just not the one we actually had, that's a really Pro-biased topic.

I guess you could still pick those Big Issues and for the bad ones, just do some resolutional analysis about it to see why it's a bad debate topic and doesn't belong as a Big Issue. Maybe that will even get Juggle to rethink the Big Issues and change a few things.

as expected from bluesteel...
this would be perfect if implemented.
Blade-of-Truth
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9/5/2014 3:53:37 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/4/2014 9:43:32 PM, bluesteel wrote:
At 9/4/2014 3:39:52 PM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
The following is meant to be a good intellectual discussion. If you plan on posting on this thread please remember to respect the other users posts, ideas and argument structures. Thoughtful, provoking, constructive questions, comments, ideas and rebuttals are encouraged.

Today, I was pondering some of the "Big Issues" here on DDO. So far, the list of big issues are as follows:

"Abortion
"Affirmative Action
"Animal Rights
"Barack Obama
"Border Fence
"Capitalism
"Civil Unions
"Death Penalty
"Drug Legalization
"Electoral College
"Environmental Protection
"Estate Tax
"European Union
"Euthanasia
"Federal Reserve
"Flat Tax
"Free Trade
"Gay Marriage
"Global Warming Exists
"Globalization
"Gold Standard
"Gun Rights
"Homeschooling
"Internet Censorship
"Iran-Iraq War
"Labor Union
"Legalized Prostitution
"Medicaid & Medicare
"Medical Marijuana
"Military Intervention
"Minimum Wage
"National Health Care
"National Retail Sales Tax
"Occupy Movement
"Progressive Tax
"Racial Profiling
"Redistribution
"Smoking Ban
"Social Programs
"Social Security
"Socialism
"Stimulus Spending
"Term Limits
"Torture
"United Nations
"War in Afghanistan
"War on Terror
"Welfare

While the site itself provides summaries for both sides of these issues, I was thinking it would be great if we, as a community, could compile a list of the strongest arguments ever seen for either side of these big issues here on DDO.

What I mean is that if you are, for example, interested in the Pro side of Welfare, you will have a database of sorts that can refer you to the strongest arguments ever presented for that side by a fellow member. I see both positives and negatives to this:

Negatives:

It would take a great deal of time to find/compile the best arguments ever presented by a fellow debater for the big issue you are curious about.

We would need to create a standard for what is deemed best. A good starting point could be finding arguments that have yet to be defeated on either side of an issue.

Bias. I would imagine certain issues bringing in very biased proponents for either side. We would need to collaborate in finding a method that would weed those arguments out so as to remain as intellectually objective as we can while presenting the "best/strongest" arguments for either side.

Positives:

Challenge. Immediately, members interested in specific topics can see what issues need work on, or what issues present an undefeated argument which you might have the rebuttal for.

Starting off strong. New members would be able to see the strongest arguments that they can then apply in their own debates that are on such issues. Perhaps they have a new perspective on an old argument and will serve to strengthen it in their own way when using it as a contention.

Continuous collaboration. As with all things, arguments change shape over time. We can trace countless arguments which have since been defeated in modern times. It then follows that the arguments deemed by the community as the "strongest/best" would also change with the times. By DDO allowing for the natural flow of continuous input on these issues via debates utilizing strong arguments, it only follows that each and every person debating would in some way be truly contributing to the evolution of arguments presented on either side of these big issues. Of course we are in some way already doing that in the grand scheme of things, but by having such a feature as the one I am proposing, the debaters would literally have something they can look at, measure themselves by, and immediately depend on when creating their own arguments.



So what do you all think about this? Is it an idea worth pursuing as a community of contributors?

I like the idea a lot. I think you should focus the discussion on only one topic per week so it can get rather in-depth. And that it be limited only to "discussion" (i.e. people summarizing the best arguments in their own words) and not posting links to other people's arguments or their own debates, since outside reading assignments are not a discussion. You don't want to turn this into just another "post your favorite debates" thread.

I'll also say I don't think some of the big issues are debate resolutions, so you can't really pick those. Like, is it really as simple as being "pro" or "con" animal rights? Most anti-PETA people wouldn't argue that animals rights should be non-existent. Torturing pets is seen as cruel and inhumane by pretty much everyone. Also, the War in Afghanistan is a pretty moot point. It's hard to say you are for or against it. What are you for or against? The initial invasion? Kicking out the Taliban? What we did subsequently? How long we stayed there? If "Con" is against having gone in at all and Pro can argue that we should have had "a" war, just not the one we actually had, that's a really Pro-biased topic.

I guess you could still pick those Big Issues and for the bad ones, just do some resolutional analysis about it to see why it's a bad debate topic and doesn't belong as a Big Issue. Maybe that will even get Juggle to rethink the Big Issues and change a few things.

You raise some great points that would be ideal if we pursued this. Unfortunately, this didn't garner as much community support as I had hoped it would. I don't know why either because I really feel like this would be a great idea, but I guess no-one wants to put in the time to make this a reality with me so I'm not going to pursue this for now.

At a later time, if I can find the freedom to do so, I'll re-present this and hopefully garner some more support. Ideally I'd have a rough draft list pre-made for people to work with as well.
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whiteflame
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9/5/2014 6:17:27 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Sorry I didn't post on this earlier, been pretty busy. I'd be interested in participating in this, and I like bluesteel's suggestions.
Khaos_Mage
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9/6/2014 6:55:08 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/4/2014 3:53:05 PM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
At 9/4/2014 3:45:48 PM, 9spaceking wrote:
but I'm surprised God's Existence isn't a "big issue"...scientists are everywhere researching about it, religious people everywhere stand their ground for God...it's debated many many times...it should be considered a "Big Issue".

I kinda agree and was actually going to make a point about it being included in big issues but I'm sure DDO has its reasons for not including that. Airmax might know, hopefully he'll see this and can enlighten us.

I'd assume because there is a selection for religious following.
If you follow a religion, then you probably believe in its deity.
If not, then you don't.
If not answered, then it's the same as not answering the big question.
Ergo, it is not needed.
My work here is, finally, done.
Blade-of-Truth
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9/6/2014 5:11:48 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/5/2014 6:17:27 PM, whiteflame wrote:
Sorry I didn't post on this earlier, been pretty busy.

It's all good, I know you're busy with your qualifying exam. I'm gonna re-present this idea in about a month when I have more free-time.

I'd be interested in participating in this, and I like bluesteel's suggestions.

Yeah, his suggestions were spot on. I appreciate you showing support and will definitely let you know via PM's when I plan to bring this to the table again.
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Blade-of-Truth
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9/6/2014 5:12:49 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/6/2014 6:55:08 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 9/4/2014 3:53:05 PM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
At 9/4/2014 3:45:48 PM, 9spaceking wrote:
but I'm surprised God's Existence isn't a "big issue"...scientists are everywhere researching about it, religious people everywhere stand their ground for God...it's debated many many times...it should be considered a "Big Issue".

I kinda agree and was actually going to make a point about it being included in big issues but I'm sure DDO has its reasons for not including that. Airmax might know, hopefully he'll see this and can enlighten us.

I'd assume because there is a selection for religious following.
If you follow a religion, then you probably believe in its deity.
If not, then you don't.
If not answered, then it's the same as not answering the big question.
Ergo, it is not needed.

True.
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