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DDO's rape culture

Garbanza
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9/29/2014 12:40:26 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Kbub has convincingly won the argument that DDO has a rape-friendly culture, demonstrated by Fazz coming out as a rapist and the overwhelming support Wylted got for making fun of rape survivors.

The question I have is can anything be done about it? When you think about it, it's better if rapists like Fazz and rape apologists in general are on their computers talking about stuff rather than out in the world assaulting people. Maybe DDO is the right place for them all to gather and spend their time. Or should we try and fight it?
fazz
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9/29/2014 12:45:15 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/29/2014 12:40:26 AM, Garbanza wrote:
Kbub has convincingly won the argument that DDO has a rape-friendly culture, demonstrated by Fazz coming out as a rapist and the overwhelming support Wylted got for making fun of rape survivors.

The question I have is can anything be done about it? When you think about it, it's better if rapists like Fazz and rape apologists in general are on their computers talking about stuff rather than out in the world assaulting people. Maybe DDO is the right place for them all to gather and spend their time. Or should we try and fight it?

Hey, sorry. I didnt have DDO for the last few days. I dont get connectivity because I am travelling at the moment. What is it that you wanted to know. Didn't mean to keep you hanging. Sorry?
Garbanza
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9/29/2014 12:45:43 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
I don't mean to imply that rape apologists are any more likely commit assault than other types of people. Just in general, though, it's better that people who think that rape is funny and don't really understand the non-consent rule are all in one place online rather than around in the community.
imabench
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9/29/2014 12:46:41 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/29/2014 12:40:26 AM, Garbanza wrote:
Kbub has convincingly won the argument that DDO has a rape-friendly culture,

LOL good one

demonstrated by Fazz coming out as a rapist and the overwhelming support Wylted got for making fun of rape survivors.

People support Wylted's freedom of speech for making the debate, not for being pro rape. Try to get your facts straight.

The question I have is can anything be done about it? When you think about it, it's better if rapists like Fazz and rape apologists in general are on their computers talking about stuff rather than out in the world assaulting people. Maybe DDO is the right place for them all to gather and spend their time. Or should we try and fight it?

You cant fight something that doesnt even exist in the first place
Kevin24018 : "He's just so mean it makes me want to ball up my fists and stamp on the ground"

7/14/16 = The Presidency Dies

DDO: THE MOVIE = http://www.debate.org...
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VP of DDO from Dec 14th 2014 to Jan 1st 2015
Garbanza
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9/29/2014 12:47:19 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/29/2014 12:45:15 AM, fazz wrote:
At 9/29/2014 12:40:26 AM, Garbanza wrote:
Kbub has convincingly won the argument that DDO has a rape-friendly culture, demonstrated by Fazz coming out as a rapist and the overwhelming support Wylted got for making fun of rape survivors.

The question I have is can anything be done about it? When you think about it, it's better if rapists like Fazz and rape apologists in general are on their computers talking about stuff rather than out in the world assaulting people. Maybe DDO is the right place for them all to gather and spend their time. Or should we try and fight it?

Hey, sorry. I didnt have DDO for the last few days. I dont get connectivity because I am travelling at the moment. What is it that you wanted to know. Didn't mean to keep you hanging. Sorry?

http://www.debate.org...
Garbanza
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9/29/2014 12:48:10 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/29/2014 12:46:41 AM, imabench wrote:
At 9/29/2014 12:40:26 AM, Garbanza wrote:
Kbub has convincingly won the argument that DDO has a rape-friendly culture,

LOL good one

demonstrated by Fazz coming out as a rapist and the overwhelming support Wylted got for making fun of rape survivors.

People support Wylted's freedom of speech for making the debate, not for being pro rape. Try to get your facts straight.

The question I have is can anything be done about it? When you think about it, it's better if rapists like Fazz and rape apologists in general are on their computers talking about stuff rather than out in the world assaulting people. Maybe DDO is the right place for them all to gather and spend their time. Or should we try and fight it?

You cant fight something that doesnt even exist in the first place

Hey, you're almost as good at arguing as Mikal! Impressive.
fazz
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9/29/2014 12:52:09 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/29/2014 12:46:41 AM, imabench wrote:
At 9/29/2014 12:40:26 AM, Garbanza wrote:

Hey Imabench let me deal with personally. I think I am the Rapist in question in this forum.
imabench
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9/29/2014 12:52:54 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/29/2014 12:52:09 AM, fazz wrote:
At 9/29/2014 12:46:41 AM, imabench wrote:
At 9/29/2014 12:40:26 AM, Garbanza wrote:


Hey Imabench let me deal with personally. I think I am the Rapist in question in this forum.

alright go for it, I gotta go to sleep anyways its 2 in the damn morning in the east coast right now
Kevin24018 : "He's just so mean it makes me want to ball up my fists and stamp on the ground"

7/14/16 = The Presidency Dies

DDO: THE MOVIE = http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...

VP of DDO from Dec 14th 2014 to Jan 1st 2015
fazz
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9/29/2014 12:53:44 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/29/2014 12:52:54 AM, imabench wrote:
At 9/29/2014 12:52:09 AM, fazz wrote:
At 9/29/2014 12:46:41 AM, imabench wrote:
At 9/29/2014 12:40:26 AM, Garbanza wrote:


Hey Imabench let me deal with personally. I think I am the Rapist in question in this forum.

alright go for it, I gotta go to sleep anyways its 2 in the damn morning in the east coast right now

It's 2pm here. lol
fazz
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9/29/2014 12:55:53 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/29/2014 12:47:19 AM, Garbanza wrote:
At 9/29/2014 12:45:15 AM, fazz wrote:
At 9/29/2014 12:40:26 AM, Garbanza wrote:
Kbub has convincingly won the argument that DDO has a rape-friendly culture, demonstrated by Fazz coming out as a rapist and the overwhelming support Wylted got for making fun of rape survivors.

The question I have is can anything be done about it? When you think about it, it's better if rapists like Fazz and rape apologists in general are on their computers talking about stuff rather than out in the world assaulting people. Maybe DDO is the right place for them all to gather and spend their time. Or should we try and fight it?

Hey, sorry. I didnt have DDO for the last few days. I dont get connectivity because I am travelling at the moment. What is it that you wanted to know. Didn't mean to keep you hanging. Sorry?

http://www.debate.org...

At 9/26/2014 11:45:27 PM, Garbanza wrote:

Maybe you should explain what you mean. It sounds pretty bad, but I keep having this nagging feeling that I've misunderstood something.

Are you really saying that you've raped people, that it was great sex and that you're proud of it?

Well, no I think I was indicating that i was saying that we should look at rape and sexual violence as two different categories. If rape is simply based on spoken consent then yes I am a rapist.
Garbanza
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9/29/2014 1:05:18 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/29/2014 12:55:53 AM, fazz wrote:
At 9/29/2014 12:47:19 AM, Garbanza wrote:
At 9/29/2014 12:45:15 AM, fazz wrote:
At 9/29/2014 12:40:26 AM, Garbanza wrote:
Kbub has convincingly won the argument that DDO has a rape-friendly culture, demonstrated by Fazz coming out as a rapist and the overwhelming support Wylted got for making fun of rape survivors.

The question I have is can anything be done about it? When you think about it, it's better if rapists like Fazz and rape apologists in general are on their computers talking about stuff rather than out in the world assaulting people. Maybe DDO is the right place for them all to gather and spend their time. Or should we try and fight it?

Hey, sorry. I didnt have DDO for the last few days. I dont get connectivity because I am travelling at the moment. What is it that you wanted to know. Didn't mean to keep you hanging. Sorry?

http://www.debate.org...

At 9/26/2014 11:45:27 PM, Garbanza wrote:

Maybe you should explain what you mean. It sounds pretty bad, but I keep having this nagging feeling that I've misunderstood something.

Are you really saying that you've raped people, that it was great sex and that you're proud of it?

Well, no I think I was indicating that i was saying that we should look at rape and sexual violence as two different categories. If rape is simply based on spoken consent then yes I am a rapist.

So khaos_mage and wylted were right about you. At least that's cleared up. The OP stands though. I still think kbub won the argument.
bsh1
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9/29/2014 1:05:46 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/29/2014 12:40:26 AM, Garbanza wrote:
Kbub has convincingly won the argument that DDO has a rape-friendly culture, demonstrated by Fazz coming out as a rapist and the overwhelming support Wylted got for making fun of rape survivors.

I sincerely hope, and suspect, that Fazz is trolling, though, since I didn't see his initial comment about this, I can't say with any surety.

I believe Wylted's debate was in extremely poor taste and that prudence and good judgment should have advised Wylted to not start that particular debate. Regardless, as long as he does not use a debate to attack other members or to violate the TOS in other ways his right to have that debate is protected.

The issue at stake on Wylted's side of things is the right to freedom of speech. To quote Voltaire: "I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it." This encapsulates the issue at hand. Many of us, including myself, feel that what Wylted did was in poor taste (or feel more strongly); but that does not change the fact that Wylted has a right to say what he said.

The fact that DDO recognizes Wylted's right does not mean that DDO has a "rape friendly culture." Several users visceral negative reactions to the content of that debate seem to show that DDO is not as permissive of rape and rape-related discourse as you appear to suggest. Rather, DDO's defense of Wylted on the grounds of free speech exemplify what a debating site is allow about--and open exchange of ideas and thoughts, even if we find some of those ideas and thoughts repulsive, vulgar, or inappropriate.

You are therefore conflating DDO's pro-free speech stance with a pro-rape stance. That is not the case. DDO is not endorsing rape, and many of us have, do, and will continue to denounce rape IRL and online. DDO is instead endorsing a culture of free expression and communication, and that is something we should pride ourselves on. That we could air our disagreements on this issue is a testimony to the vibrancy of free discourse and discussion on this site.

TL;DR


DDO does not have a "rape-friendly culture;" DDO has a "free speech-friendly culture."
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

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fazz
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9/29/2014 1:07:18 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/29/2014 1:05:18 AM, Garbanza wrote:
At 9/29/2014 12:55:53 AM, fazz wrote:
At 9/29/2014 12:47:19 AM, Garbanza wrote:
At 9/29/2014 12:45:15 AM, fazz wrote:
At 9/29/2014 12:40:26 AM, Garbanza wrote:
Kbub has convincingly won the argument that DDO has a rape-friendly culture, demonstrated by Fazz coming out as a rapist and the overwhelming support Wylted got for making fun of rape survivors.

The question I have is can anything be done about it? When you think about it, it's better if rapists like Fazz and rape apologists in general are on their computers talking about stuff rather than out in the world assaulting people. Maybe DDO is the right place for them all to gather and spend their time. Or should we try and fight it?

Hey, sorry. I didnt have DDO for the last few days. I dont get connectivity because I am travelling at the moment. What is it that you wanted to know. Didn't mean to keep you hanging. Sorry?

http://www.debate.org...

At 9/26/2014 11:45:27 PM, Garbanza wrote:

Maybe you should explain what you mean. It sounds pretty bad, but I keep having this nagging feeling that I've misunderstood something.

Are you really saying that you've raped people, that it was great sex and that you're proud of it?

Well, no I think I was indicating that i was saying that we should look at rape and sexual violence as two different categories. If rape is simply based on spoken consent then yes I am a rapist.

So khaos_mage and wylted were right about you.

Well, Khaos was right. I dont know Wylted. Not personally.

I still think kbub won the argument.

I am still a rapist. I am on the lose.
Garbanza
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9/29/2014 1:13:40 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/29/2014 1:05:46 AM, bsh1 wrote:
At 9/29/2014 12:40:26 AM, Garbanza wrote:
Kbub has convincingly won the argument that DDO has a rape-friendly culture, demonstrated by Fazz coming out as a rapist and the overwhelming support Wylted got for making fun of rape survivors.

I sincerely hope, and suspect, that Fazz is trolling, though, since I didn't see his initial comment about this, I can't say with any surety.

Yes was but it makes no difference. A joke that rape is the best shag of his life is still consistent with kbub's argument that this site is too appreciative of sexual violence.

I believe Wylted's debate was in extremely poor taste and that prudence and good judgment should have advised Wylted to not start that particular debate. Regardless, as long as he does not use a debate to attack other members or to violate the TOS in other ways his right to have that debate is protected.

The issue at stake on Wylted's side of things is the right to freedom of speech. To quote Voltaire: "I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it." This encapsulates the issue at hand. Many of us, including myself, feel that what Wylted did was in poor taste (or feel more strongly); but that does not change the fact that Wylted has a right to say what he said.

The fact that DDO recognizes Wylted's right does not mean that DDO has a "rape friendly culture." Several users visceral negative reactions to the content of that debate seem to show that DDO is not as permissive of rape and rape-related discourse as you appear to suggest. Rather, DDO's defense of Wylted on the grounds of free speech exemplify what a debating site is allow about--and open exchange of ideas and thoughts, even if we find some of those ideas and thoughts repulsive, vulgar, or inappropriate.

You are therefore conflating DDO's pro-free speech stance with a pro-rape stance. That is not the case. DDO is not endorsing rape, and many of us have, do, and will continue to denounce rape IRL and online. DDO is instead endorsing a culture of free expression and communication, and that is something we should pride ourselves on. That we could air our disagreements on this issue is a testimony to the vibrancy of free discourse and discussion on this site.

TL;DR


DDO does not have a "rape-friendly culture;" DDO has a "free speech-friendly culture."

When I first saw the debate it was on the first page of this site and it ONLY had appreciative comments - there were two pages of them. There was not a single negative comment until kbub started that thread, and then some people protested. That's not free speech or discussion - that's a bunch of boys joking about rape and making fun of actual rape victims. That's stifling discussion rather than anything else. Those comments were not about how much they appreciated wylted's free speech, they were comments about how much they enjoyed the true rape stories and, in Mikal's case, how much he was turned on by them.

Have you actually read the arguments that kbub presented in the other thread? Because s/he argued it a lot better than I'm doing here.
bsh1
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9/29/2014 1:14:49 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/29/2014 12:55:53 AM, fazz wrote:

If rape is simply based on spoken consent then yes I am a rapist.

It's not rape is explicit or implicit consent is obtained.

If I am making out with YYW and literally tear his clothes off in lustful desire, I do NOT want him to kill the mood by confirming that I give my explicit consent to what is about to go down. I think my lack of objection and my actions give him implicit consent enough that we can have sex without it being rape.
Live Long and Prosper

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"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

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bsh1
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9/29/2014 1:22:24 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/29/2014 1:13:40 AM, Garbanza wrote:
At 9/29/2014 1:05:46 AM, bsh1 wrote:
At 9/29/2014 12:40:26 AM, Garbanza wrote:
Kbub has convincingly won the argument that DDO has a rape-friendly culture, demonstrated by Fazz coming out as a rapist and the overwhelming support Wylted got for making fun of rape survivors.

I sincerely hope, and suspect, that Fazz is trolling, though, since I didn't see his initial comment about this, I can't say with any surety.

Yes was but it makes no difference. A joke that rape is the best shag of his life is still consistent with kbub's argument that this site is too appreciative of sexual violence.

I believe Wylted's debate was in extremely poor taste and that prudence and good judgment should have advised Wylted to not start that particular debate. Regardless, as long as he does not use a debate to attack other members or to violate the TOS in other ways his right to have that debate is protected.

The issue at stake on Wylted's side of things is the right to freedom of speech. To quote Voltaire: "I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it." This encapsulates the issue at hand. Many of us, including myself, feel that what Wylted did was in poor taste (or feel more strongly); but that does not change the fact that Wylted has a right to say what he said.

The fact that DDO recognizes Wylted's right does not mean that DDO has a "rape friendly culture." Several users visceral negative reactions to the content of that debate seem to show that DDO is not as permissive of rape and rape-related discourse as you appear to suggest. Rather, DDO's defense of Wylted on the grounds of free speech exemplify what a debating site is allow about--and open exchange of ideas and thoughts, even if we find some of those ideas and thoughts repulsive, vulgar, or inappropriate.

You are therefore conflating DDO's pro-free speech stance with a pro-rape stance. That is not the case. DDO is not endorsing rape, and many of us have, do, and will continue to denounce rape IRL and online. DDO is instead endorsing a culture of free expression and communication, and that is something we should pride ourselves on. That we could air our disagreements on this issue is a testimony to the vibrancy of free discourse and discussion on this site.

TL;DR


DDO does not have a "rape-friendly culture;" DDO has a "free speech-friendly culture."

When I first saw the debate it was on the first page of this site and it ONLY had appreciative comments - there were two pages of them. There was not a single negative comment until kbub started that thread, and then some people protested.

You are forgetting the fact that YaHey's whole argument was a critique (albeit not a well constructed one) of the appropriateness of the topic. Isn't that an unappreciative comment. He also got 37 points, so clearly not everyone agree with Wylted.

That's not free speech or discussion - that's a bunch of boys joking about rape and making fun of actual rape victims.

Which they still have every right to do, however coarse and tasteless it is.

That's stifling discussion rather than anything else. Those comments were not about how much they appreciated wylted's free speech, they were comments about how much they enjoyed the true rape stories and, in Mikal's case, how much he was turned on by them.

I'm not going to go into the fact that I find some of those comments creepy and disturbing (at least, I'm not going to say more than that), but many people who might have objected to the debate--like me--didn't bother to read it because we found it coarse and tasteless. I felt it was better to make a comment in the forums than to get embroiled in the comments section of the debate. The forums are the exact place where discussions like that are most productive, since more members are inclined to participate. I am certain kbub's castigation of those who approved of the debate reminded all of us that rape is never okay under any set of circumstances.

Have you actually read the arguments that kbub presented in the other thread? Because s/he argued it a lot better than I'm doing here.

I glanced over some of them, but I can get the gist of her argument from a cursory glance. It does not change the fact that Wylted has a right to say--or type--whatever he wants on DDO as long as it doesn't violate TOS.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

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bsh1
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9/29/2014 1:27:14 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
For the record, the first post by someone other than the debaters was by DDD, and they said: "Yahay, i agree with you on this debate part."

To me, this sounds like an endorsement of YaHey's critique of the topic--definitely not a thumbs up to Wylted.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

Follow the DDOlympics
: http://www.debate.org...

Open Debate Topics Project: http://www.debate.org...
Garbanza
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9/29/2014 1:28:01 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/29/2014 1:22:24 AM, bsh1 wrote:
At 9/29/2014 1:13:40 AM, Garbanza wrote:
At 9/29/2014 1:05:46 AM, bsh1 wrote:
At 9/29/2014 12:40:26 AM, Garbanza wrote:
Kbub has convincingly won the argument that DDO has a rape-friendly culture, demonstrated by Fazz coming out as a rapist and the overwhelming support Wylted got for making fun of rape survivors.

I sincerely hope, and suspect, that Fazz is trolling, though, since I didn't see his initial comment about this, I can't say with any surety.

Yes was but it makes no difference. A joke that rape is the best shag of his life is still consistent with kbub's argument that this site is too appreciative of sexual violence.

I believe Wylted's debate was in extremely poor taste and that prudence and good judgment should have advised Wylted to not start that particular debate. Regardless, as long as he does not use a debate to attack other members or to violate the TOS in other ways his right to have that debate is protected.

The issue at stake on Wylted's side of things is the right to freedom of speech. To quote Voltaire: "I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it." This encapsulates the issue at hand. Many of us, including myself, feel that what Wylted did was in poor taste (or feel more strongly); but that does not change the fact that Wylted has a right to say what he said.

The fact that DDO recognizes Wylted's right does not mean that DDO has a "rape friendly culture." Several users visceral negative reactions to the content of that debate seem to show that DDO is not as permissive of rape and rape-related discourse as you appear to suggest. Rather, DDO's defense of Wylted on the grounds of free speech exemplify what a debating site is allow about--and open exchange of ideas and thoughts, even if we find some of those ideas and thoughts repulsive, vulgar, or inappropriate.

You are therefore conflating DDO's pro-free speech stance with a pro-rape stance. That is not the case. DDO is not endorsing rape, and many of us have, do, and will continue to denounce rape IRL and online. DDO is instead endorsing a culture of free expression and communication, and that is something we should pride ourselves on. That we could air our disagreements on this issue is a testimony to the vibrancy of free discourse and discussion on this site.

TL;DR


DDO does not have a "rape-friendly culture;" DDO has a "free speech-friendly culture."

When I first saw the debate it was on the first page of this site and it ONLY had appreciative comments - there were two pages of them. There was not a single negative comment until kbub started that thread, and then some people protested.

You are forgetting the fact that YaHey's whole argument was a critique (albeit not a well constructed one) of the appropriateness of the topic. Isn't that an unappreciative comment. He also got 37 points, so clearly not everyone agree with Wylted.

That's not free speech or discussion - that's a bunch of boys joking about rape and making fun of actual rape victims.

Which they still have every right to do, however coarse and tasteless it is.

That's stifling discussion rather than anything else. Those comments were not about how much they appreciated wylted's free speech, they were comments about how much they enjoyed the true rape stories and, in Mikal's case, how much he was turned on by them.

I'm not going to go into the fact that I find some of those comments creepy and disturbing (at least, I'm not going to say more than that), but many people who might have objected to the debate--like me--didn't bother to read it because we found it coarse and tasteless. I felt it was better to make a comment in the forums than to get embroiled in the comments section of the debate. The forums are the exact place where discussions like that are most productive, since more members are inclined to participate. I am certain kbub's castigation of those who approved of the debate reminded all of us that rape is never okay under any set of circumstances.

Have you actually read the arguments that kbub presented in the other thread? Because s/he argued it a lot better than I'm doing here.

I glanced over some of them, but I can get the gist of her argument from a cursory glance. It does not change the fact that Wylted has a right to say--or type--whatever he wants on DDO as long as it doesn't violate TOS.

Perhaps if you had read it, you would see that kbub never once said that wylted or anyone should be censored or that they don't have the right to free speech. That's why I asked you to read it, because you're trying to reframe the discussion into something it isn't.

Kbub's comments were about the culture of the site, that it is not very inviting to women particularly, and I agree. I think it would be hard to read that thread and not agree. You've been on this site for a while, so maybe you can draw your own conclusions.

This thread is about whether or not we should try changing the culture to something more inclusive. You seem to be saying no.
bsh1
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9/29/2014 1:30:43 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Also in the first 3 pages of comments, a user wrote: "This debate is f*c*ed up." Esocial, in the first 5 pages, wrote "No. Just no." Furthermore, the debate has a net 32 "dislikes"--meaning that, of all people that "liked" or "disliked" the page, 32 more people "disliked" it. Surely, this is a mere snapshot of some of DDO's objections to this debate and its subject matter.
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"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

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bsh1
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9/29/2014 1:41:25 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/29/2014 1:28:01 AM, Garbanza wrote:
At 9/29/2014 1:22:24 AM, bsh1 wrote:
At 9/29/2014 1:13:40 AM, Garbanza wrote:
At 9/29/2014 1:05:46 AM, bsh1 wrote:
TL;DR

DDO does not have a "rape-friendly culture;" DDO has a "free speech-friendly culture."

When I first saw the debate it was on the first page of this site and it ONLY had appreciative comments - there were two pages of them. There was not a single negative comment until kbub started that thread, and then some people protested.

You are forgetting the fact that YaHey's whole argument was a critique (albeit not a well constructed one) of the appropriateness of the topic. Isn't that an unappreciative comment. He also got 37 points, so clearly not everyone agree with Wylted.

That's not free speech or discussion - that's a bunch of boys joking about rape and making fun of actual rape victims.

Which they still have every right to do, however coarse and tasteless it is.

That's stifling discussion rather than anything else. Those comments were not about how much they appreciated wylted's free speech, they were comments about how much they enjoyed the true rape stories and, in Mikal's case, how much he was turned on by them.

I'm not going to go into the fact that I find some of those comments creepy and disturbing (at least, I'm not going to say more than that), but many people who might have objected to the debate--like me--didn't bother to read it because we found it coarse and tasteless. I felt it was better to make a comment in the forums than to get embroiled in the comments section of the debate. The forums are the exact place where discussions like that are most productive, since more members are inclined to participate. I am certain kbub's castigation of those who approved of the debate reminded all of us that rape is never okay under any set of circumstances.

Have you actually read the arguments that kbub presented in the other thread? Because s/he argued it a lot better than I'm doing here.

I glanced over some of them, but I can get the gist of her argument from a cursory glance. It does not change the fact that Wylted has a right to say--or type--whatever he wants on DDO as long as it doesn't violate TOS.

Perhaps if you had read it, you would see that kbub never once said that wylted or anyone should be censored or that they don't have the right to free speech. That's why I asked you to read it, because you're trying to reframe the discussion into something it isn't.

That's not what I am saying--you are strawmanning my argument. You said in your OP that DDO has a "rape-friendly culture." I am countering that by saying that DDO's defense of Wylted is not based on approval or friendliness towards rape, but due to our belief in freedom of speech.

I never claimed you or kbub were proponents of censorship. I am addressing the "cultural" argument you made.

Kbub's comments were about the culture of the site, that it is not very inviting to women particularly, and I agree. I think it would be hard to read that thread and not agree. You've been on this site for a while, so maybe you can draw your own conclusions.

I think that some debates and some users might not be friendly to minority groups, but I don't think there is a pervasive culture of such enmity or disdain. I see, for instance, tons of homophobic comments, debates, polls, etc. on DDO on a regular basis, but because I know so many people on DDO don't share those beliefs, I don't think the myriad examples of homophobia on the site mean that the site has a homophobic culture. I think the same applies here--sure, we can cherry-pick examples of misogynistic comments, but that doesn't mean DDO has an anti-woman culture.

This thread is about whether or not we should try changing the culture to something more inclusive. You seem to be saying no.

I am saying that the culture already is inclusive. In a way, if taken to a high enough levels, your argument could make DDO more exclusive.

Consider the following hypothetical: we agree DDO has a culture permissive of homophobia. We decide to reverse this by taking action against homophobes. Eventually, we evict all homophobes from the site--excluding them entirely. Surely, this is a highly undesirable outcome on many levels: (1) it stifles freedom of speech, (2) it creates a morals police of sorts on DDO--a litmus test for who can and cannot be on the site that could be a dangerous precedent, and (3) it ends DDO's culture of inclusiveness.

I worry that if we decide to take some sort of ill-defined action against people who express misogynistic beliefs, that they could be chased off the site, effectively leading to the same outcomes as I just described. I am not sure what action you would support specifically, so maybe you could suggest some ideas, but there is a risk that such an outcome could occur.
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Garbanza
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9/29/2014 1:43:21 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/29/2014 1:27:14 AM, bsh1 wrote:
For the record, the first post by someone other than the debaters was by DDD, and they said: "Yahay, i agree with you on this debate part."

To me, this sounds like an endorsement of YaHey's critique of the topic--definitely not a thumbs up to Wylted.

So we have a debate celebrating rape and two pages of congratulatory votes, not a single vote against, and the site's top debater saying he's turned on. But then, deep in the comments a single user says "Yahay, I agree with you on this debate part."

That's your evidence of a balanced discussion. Lol. And then, a user starts a protest and gets some people to disagree and you falsely reframe it as an attack on free speech.

Aren't you one of the site's presidents?
thett3
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9/29/2014 1:44:57 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
SHAMELESS PLUG

http://www.debate.org...
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#StandwithBossy

#UnbanTheMadman

#BetOnThett

"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
Garbanza
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9/29/2014 1:49:54 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/29/2014 1:41:25 AM, bsh1 wrote:
At 9/29/2014 1:28:01 AM, Garbanza wrote:
At 9/29/2014 1:22:24 AM, bsh1 wrote:
At 9/29/2014 1:13:40 AM, Garbanza wrote:
At 9/29/2014 1:05:46 AM, bsh1 wrote:
TL;DR

DDO does not have a "rape-friendly culture;" DDO has a "free speech-friendly culture."

When I first saw the debate it was on the first page of this site and it ONLY had appreciative comments - there were two pages of them. There was not a single negative comment until kbub started that thread, and then some people protested.

You are forgetting the fact that YaHey's whole argument was a critique (albeit not a well constructed one) of the appropriateness of the topic. Isn't that an unappreciative comment. He also got 37 points, so clearly not everyone agree with Wylted.

That's not free speech or discussion - that's a bunch of boys joking about rape and making fun of actual rape victims.

Which they still have every right to do, however coarse and tasteless it is.

That's stifling discussion rather than anything else. Those comments were not about how much they appreciated wylted's free speech, they were comments about how much they enjoyed the true rape stories and, in Mikal's case, how much he was turned on by them.

I'm not going to go into the fact that I find some of those comments creepy and disturbing (at least, I'm not going to say more than that), but many people who might have objected to the debate--like me--didn't bother to read it because we found it coarse and tasteless. I felt it was better to make a comment in the forums than to get embroiled in the comments section of the debate. The forums are the exact place where discussions like that are most productive, since more members are inclined to participate. I am certain kbub's castigation of those who approved of the debate reminded all of us that rape is never okay under any set of circumstances.

Have you actually read the arguments that kbub presented in the other thread? Because s/he argued it a lot better than I'm doing here.

I glanced over some of them, but I can get the gist of her argument from a cursory glance. It does not change the fact that Wylted has a right to say--or type--whatever he wants on DDO as long as it doesn't violate TOS.

Perhaps if you had read it, you would see that kbub never once said that wylted or anyone should be censored or that they don't have the right to free speech. That's why I asked you to read it, because you're trying to reframe the discussion into something it isn't.

That's not what I am saying--you are strawmanning my argument. You said in your OP that DDO has a "rape-friendly culture." I am countering that by saying that DDO's defense of Wylted is not based on approval or friendliness towards rape, but due to our belief in freedom of speech.

You can't possibly know that. There was talk of free speech but very little because the conversation has never been about that. Blade_of_truth's comment that kbub should get the sand out of his vagina, for example, had little to do with free speech. Fazz's comment that rape could be the best shag of your life, has little to do with free speech. But hey, why not just think the best of all your buddies here rather than actually examine the thread in question.

I never claimed you or kbub were proponents of censorship. I am addressing the "cultural" argument you made.

Kbub's comments were about the culture of the site, that it is not very inviting to women particularly, and I agree. I think it would be hard to read that thread and not agree. You've been on this site for a while, so maybe you can draw your own conclusions.

I think that some debates and some users might not be friendly to minority groups, but I don't think there is a pervasive culture of such enmity or disdain. I see, for instance, tons of homophobic comments, debates, polls, etc. on DDO on a regular basis, but because I know so many people on DDO don't share those beliefs, I don't think the myriad examples of homophobia on the site mean that the site has a homophobic culture. I think the same applies here--sure, we can cherry-pick examples of misogynistic comments, but that doesn't mean DDO has an anti-woman culture.

And yet kbub has argued that it does, on the basis that a lot of women start here but very few stick around for long. It really is annoying that you dismiss kbub's arguments without even reading them.

This thread is about whether or not we should try changing the culture to something more inclusive. You seem to be saying no.

I am saying that the culture already is inclusive.

Prove it then.

Consider the following hypothetical: we agree DDO has a culture permissive of homophobia. We decide to reverse this by taking action against homophobes. Eventually, we evict all homophobes from the site--excluding them entirely. Surely, this is a highly undesirable outcome on many levels: (1) it stifles freedom of speech, (2) it creates a morals police of sorts on DDO--a litmus test for who can and cannot be on the site that could be a dangerous precedent, and (3) it ends DDO's culture of inclusiveness.

I worry that if we decide to take some sort of ill-defined action against people who express misogynistic beliefs, that they could be chased off the site, effectively leading to the same outcomes as I just described. I am not sure what action you would support specifically, so maybe you could suggest some ideas, but there is a risk that such an outcome could occur.

"some sort of ill-defined action"? Our only actions so far have been to invite discussion on the issue. I don't think it's chased any misogynists off the site yet and even if it has, you shouldn't forget your beloved free speech.
bsh1
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9/29/2014 1:50:11 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/29/2014 1:43:21 AM, Garbanza wrote:
At 9/29/2014 1:27:14 AM, bsh1 wrote:
For the record, the first post by someone other than the debaters was by DDD, and they said: "Yahay, i agree with you on this debate part."

To me, this sounds like an endorsement of YaHey's critique of the topic--definitely not a thumbs up to Wylted.

So we have a debate celebrating rape and two pages of congratulatory votes, not a single vote against, and the site's top debater saying he's turned on. But then, deep in the comments a single user says "Yahay, I agree with you on this debate part."

My point was to demonstrate that early on, not everyone was in agreement with the permissibility of the debate. Sure, the discussion in the debate wasn't balanced, namely because Wylted ALWAYS does controversial, trollish debates, and no one really took it seriously. That they should have taken it seriously doesn't mean that everyone who voted for Wylted condones or supports rape.

That's your evidence of a balanced discussion. Lol. And then, a user starts a protest and gets some people to disagree and you falsely reframe it as an attack on free speech.

I am not framing what Kbub said as an attack on free speech; never did I suggest Kbub denied that Wylted had a free speech right to say what he said. I am saying that Kbub said "X is wrong," and then many others said "sure, but he has a right to say X." I am saying that DDO's response to Kbub's reaction was not one that affirmed rape, but one that affirmed the right to free speech.

Aren't you one of the site's presidents?

I am the site's Vice-President. Why?
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

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Garbanza
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9/29/2014 1:55:54 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/29/2014 1:50:11 AM, bsh1 wrote:
At 9/29/2014 1:43:21 AM, Garbanza wrote:
At 9/29/2014 1:27:14 AM, bsh1 wrote:
For the record, the first post by someone other than the debaters was by DDD, and they said: "Yahay, i agree with you on this debate part."

To me, this sounds like an endorsement of YaHey's critique of the topic--definitely not a thumbs up to Wylted.

So we have a debate celebrating rape and two pages of congratulatory votes, not a single vote against, and the site's top debater saying he's turned on. But then, deep in the comments a single user says "Yahay, I agree with you on this debate part."

My point was to demonstrate that early on, not everyone was in agreement with the permissibility of the debate. Sure, the discussion in the debate wasn't balanced, namely because Wylted ALWAYS does controversial, trollish debates, and no one really took it seriously. That they should have taken it seriously doesn't mean that everyone who voted for Wylted condones or supports rape.

This is not and has never been about Wylted. It's about how the site has responded to wylted.

That's your evidence of a balanced discussion. Lol. And then, a user starts a protest and gets some people to disagree and you falsely reframe it as an attack on free speech.

I am not framing what Kbub said as an attack on free speech; never did I suggest Kbub denied that Wylted had a free speech right to say what he said. I am saying that Kbub said "X is wrong," and then many others said "sure, but he has a right to say X." I am saying that DDO's response to Kbub's reaction was not one that affirmed rape, but one that affirmed the right to free speech.

I disagree. I don't think it's reflected in the discussion so far except in a very minor way.

Aren't you one of the site's presidents?

I am the site's Vice-President. Why?

Because you have people arguing that the culture is oppressive to women and you're not even bothering to read the argument or consider it properly. Without even thinking, you're dismissing it. As the elected representative of this site, if that's your attitude, then that's the official attitude of the site.
bsh1
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9/29/2014 1:57:53 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/29/2014 1:49:54 AM, Garbanza wrote:
At 9/29/2014 1:41:25 AM, bsh1 wrote:
At 9/29/2014 1:28:01 AM, Garbanza wrote:
At 9/29/2014 1:22:24 AM, bsh1 wrote:
At 9/29/2014 1:13:40 AM, Garbanza wrote:
At 9/29/2014 1:05:46 AM, bsh1 wrote:
Perhaps if you had read it, you would see that kbub never once said that wylted or anyone should be censored or that they don't have the right to free speech. That's why I asked you to read it, because you're trying to reframe the discussion into something it isn't.

That's not what I am saying--you are strawmanning my argument. You said in your OP that DDO has a "rape-friendly culture." I am countering that by saying that DDO's defense of Wylted is not based on approval or friendliness towards rape, but due to our belief in freedom of speech.

You can't possibly know that.

I can infer it from what I saw and heard and talked about with others.

Blade_of_truth's comment that kbub should get the sand out of his vagina, for example, had little to do with free speech. Fazz's comment that rape could be the best shag of your life, has little to do with free speech. But hey, why not just think the best of all your buddies here rather than actually examine the thread in question.

BOT's comment was totally out of line, and I generally have issues with the way he views and talks about women. Fazz, I am 99% sure, was not being serious--but still, the comment wasn't appropriate. But, regardless, as long as nothing they said was expressly illegal or in violation of the TOS, they had a right to say it. Free speech does not protect only speech that is constructive, edifying, purposeful, or appropriate--it protects all speech, even tasteless, vulgar, offhand jokes.

I think that some debates and some users might not be friendly to minority groups, but I don't think there is a pervasive culture of such enmity or disdain. I see, for instance, tons of homophobic comments, debates, polls, etc. on DDO on a regular basis, but because I know so many people on DDO don't share those beliefs, I don't think the myriad examples of homophobia on the site mean that the site has a homophobic culture. I think the same applies here--sure, we can cherry-pick examples of misogynistic comments, but that doesn't mean DDO has an anti-woman culture.

And yet kbub has argued that it does, on the basis that a lot of women start here but very few stick around for long. It really is annoying that you dismiss kbub's arguments without even reading them.

I will read them tomorrow and I'll keep an open mind, but cherry-picking arguments doth not a trend--or culture--prove. Would you say DDO had a culture of homophobia?

Consider the following hypothetical: we agree DDO has a culture permissive of homophobia. We decide to reverse this by taking action against homophobes. Eventually, we evict all homophobes from the site--excluding them entirely. Surely, this is a highly undesirable outcome on many levels: (1) it stifles freedom of speech, (2) it creates a morals police of sorts on DDO--a litmus test for who can and cannot be on the site that could be a dangerous precedent, and (3) it ends DDO's culture of inclusiveness.

I worry that if we decide to take some sort of ill-defined action against people who express misogynistic beliefs, that they could be chased off the site, effectively leading to the same outcomes as I just described. I am not sure what action you would support specifically, so maybe you could suggest some ideas, but there is a risk that such an outcome could occur.

"some sort of ill-defined action"? Our only actions so far have been to invite discussion on the issue. I don't think it's chased any misogynists off the site yet and even if it has, you shouldn't forget your beloved free speech.

There's absolutely no need to get snarky. My fear is if we go down the road of demanding more firm action, it will become a slippery slope. Please answer this question: what, if any, additional steps would you take regarding this issue if you had all the power?
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

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Garbanza
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9/29/2014 2:02:18 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/29/2014 1:57:53 AM, bsh1 wrote:

I worry that if we decide to take some sort of ill-defined action against people who express misogynistic beliefs, that they could be chased off the site, effectively leading to the same outcomes as I just described. I am not sure what action you would support specifically, so maybe you could suggest some ideas, but there is a risk that such an outcome could occur.

"some sort of ill-defined action"? Our only actions so far have been to invite discussion on the issue. I don't think it's chased any misogynists off the site yet and even if it has, you shouldn't forget your beloved free speech.

There's absolutely no need to get snarky. My fear is if we go down the road of demanding more firm action, it will become a slippery slope. Please answer this question: what, if any, additional steps would you take regarding this issue if you had all the power?

I'm snarky because you keep straw-manning. It's irritating. You talk about demanding more firm action when nobody has demanded ANY firm action.

If I had the power, i would do exactly what i'm doing. I would start a thread to discuss it and I would talk to the site's president about it, preferably in public. I would get a sense of what the site was about, I would decide if I could tolerate it or not, I would argue for a bit until I got bored, and then I would fvck off somewhere else.
bsh1
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9/29/2014 2:04:39 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/29/2014 1:55:54 AM, Garbanza wrote:
At 9/29/2014 1:50:11 AM, bsh1 wrote:
At 9/29/2014 1:43:21 AM, Garbanza wrote:
At 9/29/2014 1:27:14 AM, bsh1 wrote:
For the record, the first post by someone other than the debaters was by DDD, and they said: "Yahay, i agree with you on this debate part."

To me, this sounds like an endorsement of YaHey's critique of the topic--definitely not a thumbs up to Wylted.

So we have a debate celebrating rape and two pages of congratulatory votes, not a single vote against, and the site's top debater saying he's turned on. But then, deep in the comments a single user says "Yahay, I agree with you on this debate part."

My point was to demonstrate that early on, not everyone was in agreement with the permissibility of the debate. Sure, the discussion in the debate wasn't balanced, namely because Wylted ALWAYS does controversial, trollish debates, and no one really took it seriously. That they should have taken it seriously doesn't mean that everyone who voted for Wylted condones or supports rape.

This is not and has never been about Wylted. It's about how the site has responded to wylted.

I agree. But, to understand that response, we have to evaluate that in the context of who Wylted is and the types of debates he engages in.

That's your evidence of a balanced discussion. Lol. And then, a user starts a protest and gets some people to disagree and you falsely reframe it as an attack on free speech.

I am not framing what Kbub said as an attack on free speech; never did I suggest Kbub denied that Wylted had a free speech right to say what he said. I am saying that Kbub said "X is wrong," and then many others said "sure, but he has a right to say X." I am saying that DDO's response to Kbub's reaction was not one that affirmed rape, but one that affirmed the right to free speech.

I disagree. I don't think it's reflected in the discussion so far except in a very minor way.

We'll have to disagree then.

Aren't you one of the site's presidents?

I am the site's Vice-President. Why?

Because you have people arguing that the culture is oppressive to women and you're not even bothering to read the argument or consider it properly. Without even thinking, you're dismissing it. As the elected representative of this site, if that's your attitude, then that's the official attitude of the site.

I am not the president, nor am I speaking in an official capacity. And, I doubt Blade will have the same opinion on this that I do--we're unique individuals with unique perspectives.

What I am saying is that, as someone who has been on this site for a year or so now, I haven't seen much to convince me the site is actively hostile to women. Sure, we can cherry-pick a few examples, but that would be a logically fallacious approach. I would be more interested to hear directly from many women on this site about their thoughts on this issue and on their reaction to things like Wylted's debate, and to take that and look at it in light of my own experiences on the site. As yet, I haven't heard that many complaints--but if anyone does have complaints or recommendations, I am ALWAYS open to listening to them and discussing them.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

Follow the DDOlympics
: http://www.debate.org...

Open Debate Topics Project: http://www.debate.org...