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Debate Tourney Idea

Kleptin
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4/13/2010 4:33:05 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
With the semester at a close, I was thinking of starting a tourney with a twist. The details are yet to come, but here's the main gist:

I want to choose a good collection of debaters and from each of them, select one of their past debates, one they did spectacularly on, one that they argued with fervor, and definitely one that they won by a landslide.

I will then assign them to debate that topic from the opposite side.

No debater entering the tournament will know what debate I pick for them beforehand, and I will also impose certain rules that will make things more interesting by far.

Each round, I will do the same thing, pitting people against their own arguments. That's the general premise. The details and technicalities will be planned out later on after my finals, but what do you guys think?
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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4/13/2010 4:36:09 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Not a bad idea, Kleptin. It'll give people a chance to argue against themselves, and play devil's advocate, since few do. I'm supportive.
Kleptin
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4/13/2010 4:40:12 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Great :)

What I'm hoping is that by putting the idea out there, some people might be interested enough to take it up even if I won't be able to manage the tourney myself. I'd really like to see this come to fruition and I'm sure that people would enjoy the novelty :P
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
SportsGuru
Posts: 1,648
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4/13/2010 5:40:52 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/13/2010 5:33:10 PM, PoeJoe wrote:
I dunno if I've done enough slam dunk debates to qualify...but I'd like to be apart if this becomes a reality.

Same here, I have a few I guess, but there mostly semantic based because of the nature of the topic.
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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4/14/2010 8:16:32 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
I love doing devil's advocate. I do it for fun. I've done anti-marijuana debates, anti-feminist debates, anti-gay debates, anti-abortion debates, etc. I've also debated (and won in Johnicle's tourney) a debate with the resolution, "War Memorials Do More Harm Than God" as Pro and won! That always impresses me *brushes shoulders off* because that's got to be one of the most ridiculous topics I've ever heard lol (out of the serious ones anyway) so after being assigned that topic, I'm pretty sure I can debate almost anything. Bring it, Kleptin! :)
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MTGandP
Posts: 702
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4/14/2010 2:41:52 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
If you start this after May 8th, I would definitely be interested. (My AP tests are over by May 8th, but before then I will be way too busy.) This is a great idea to get people arguing against themselves; it will be a challenge, but I think we'll see some really interesting arguments.
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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4/14/2010 2:45:56 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/14/2010 2:41:52 PM, MTGandP wrote:
If you start this after May 8th, I would definitely be interested. (My AP tests are over by May 8th, but before then I will be way too busy.) This is a great idea to get people arguing against themselves; it will be a challenge, but I think we'll see some really interesting arguments.

Well, they won't actually be arguing against THEMSELVES but rather against a position they took in the past. Which reminds me, Kleptin, of one possible flaw. Suppose I debated Person X and took the opposite position from a former debate of mine, but they used all of my old arguments against me. I guess MTGandP is right in saying that in a way we will then be debating against ourselves; however, why should Person X win if all they do is use my old arguments? That wouldn't be THEM beating me, that would be ME beating me.
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Puck
Posts: 6,457
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4/14/2010 5:06:52 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/14/2010 2:45:56 PM, theLwerd wrote:
At 4/14/2010 2:41:52 PM, MTGandP wrote:
If you start this after May 8th, I would definitely be interested. (My AP tests are over by May 8th, but before then I will be way too busy.) This is a great idea to get people arguing against themselves; it will be a challenge, but I think we'll see some really interesting arguments.

Well, they won't actually be arguing against THEMSELVES but rather against a position they took in the past. Which reminds me, Kleptin, of one possible flaw. Suppose I debated Person X and took the opposite position from a former debate of mine, but they used all of my old arguments against me. I guess MTGandP is right in saying that in a way we will then be debating against ourselves; however, why should Person X win if all they do is use my old arguments? That wouldn't be THEM beating me, that would be ME beating me.

You can either bar your old arguments or link each debate as a basis for judging originality. Neither really solve the issue very well..
mongeese
Posts: 5,387
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4/14/2010 5:18:37 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Man, I just realized, I have a whole lot of debates in which my arguments are logically unbreakable, which means that there's really no way to win against myself as long as my pseudo-opponent has any competence.
PoeJoe
Posts: 3,822
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4/14/2010 5:38:33 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/14/2010 5:18:37 PM, mongeese wrote:
Man, I just realized, I have a whole lot of debates in which my arguments are logically unbreakable, which means that there's really no way to win against myself as long as my pseudo-opponent has any competence.

Examples?

I'm sure some in this community would love the chance to break the "impossibly" strong.
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Puck
Posts: 6,457
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4/14/2010 6:12:57 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/14/2010 5:38:33 PM, PoeJoe wrote:
At 4/14/2010 5:18:37 PM, mongeese wrote:
Man, I just realized, I have a whole lot of debates in which my arguments are logically unbreakable, which means that there's really no way to win against myself as long as my pseudo-opponent has any competence.

Examples?

I'm sure some in this community would love the chance to break the "impossibly" strong.

Yup. Still waiting.
Kleptin
Posts: 5,095
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4/14/2010 9:31:29 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
This is how it would go:

ROUND ONE: Split the group into pairs of two. Designate one partner A and the other partner B.

ROUND ONE *A*
Debates from partners A will be chosen, and they will argue their opposite stances. Partners B will be free to use old arguments against them.

Voting will be done by the 16 participants and the 16 participants only. Voting rubric will be slightly adjusted. I will tally "wins" for those in group A. Group B will not be penalized, but they should try especially hard to beat their partner because it still counts towards their win/loss.

ROUND ONE *B*
The tables turn. Partner B now has his time to shine. After voting, Round one ends. I will tally the marks for B.

At the end of round one, we will have a set of scores as to whether or not you have adequately beat your own argument. From there, we implement things such as elimination, tournament ladder, finalists, etc.

I have a lot of things in mind, but most will be revealed at the start of the tournament. Since a lot of people seem ready for it now, can I get an official head count as to who can participate?
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
Puck
Posts: 6,457
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4/14/2010 9:46:35 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/14/2010 9:43:56 PM, theLwerd wrote:
I still don't see how my problem is answered lol but okay, I'll do it.

I think Kleptin's intent is that he wants specifically the possibility of people defeating their own awesome arguments. :P
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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4/14/2010 9:47:59 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/14/2010 9:43:56 PM, theLwerd wrote:
I still don't see how my problem is answered lol but okay, I'll do it.

I didn't see your problem.

Thing is, L, you get the chance to improve on the other person's argument in order to beat your own argument. Have you never wanted to insert a point or two into your opponent's argument before, points you think would be more relevant or effective? Now is your chance.
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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4/14/2010 9:48:41 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/14/2010 9:46:35 PM, Puck wrote:
At 4/14/2010 9:43:56 PM, theLwerd wrote:
I still don't see how my problem is answered lol but okay, I'll do it.

I think Kleptin's intent is that he wants specifically the possibility of people defeating their own awesome arguments. :P

Which I get, but if they fail, then they didn't lose to their opponent - they lose to themselves. So basically, all of my right-ness will be used against me ;P
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Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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4/14/2010 9:51:21 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/14/2010 9:47:59 PM, Volkov wrote:

Thing is, L, you get the chance to improve on the other person's argument in order to beat your own argument. Have you never wanted to insert a point or two into your opponent's argument before, points you think would be more relevant or effective? Now is your chance.

I get his intentions. I don't mind doing devil's advocate. I just think it's pretty obvious that if someone did a good enough job of debating it the first time, and someone else uses those same arguments to defeat the other person, then really the other person won lol so this is a tourney that really celebrates the losers! Haha jk. I get it :P
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Puck
Posts: 6,457
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4/14/2010 9:54:12 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
One could weigh each round separately. A win against your position counts for 2 pts, vs 1 pt for defeating another who is debating against their original position. Something like that.
Kleptin
Posts: 5,095
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4/14/2010 10:30:44 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Let me clarify on the structure:

Let's say that L-M and I are participants that are assigned as a pair.

L-M is assigned a debate where he argued that Batman can beat Superman.
I am assigned a debate where I argue that Intelligent Design is a fraud.

In the first part of the first round, I argue PRO for Intelligent Design and L-M argues CON. Let's assume that I lose, and L-M wins.

In the second part of the first round, I argue for Batman and L-M argues for Superman. Let's assume L-M wins.

At the end of round one, the scores look like this:

L-M: 1
Kleptin: 0

Scoring only counts when you argue against your position. The person serving as your partner gets no TOURNAMENT points for winning. However, the motivation for your opponent is that a win is still a win for DDO.
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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4/14/2010 11:25:35 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Kleptin, to be honest it's 1:25 am and I have no idea how you want to set it up (lulz too tired to pay attention to your explanation... mayhaps I'll try again tomorrow) but I trust your judgment and structure entirely. I'm in.
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mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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4/15/2010 2:48:46 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/14/2010 10:30:44 PM, Kleptin wrote:
Let me clarify on the structure:

Let's say that L-M and I are participants that are assigned as a pair.

L-M is assigned a debate where he argued that Batman can beat Superman.
I am assigned a debate where I argue that Intelligent Design is a fraud.

In the first part of the first round, I argue PRO for Intelligent Design and L-M argues CON. Let's assume that I lose, and L-M wins.

In the second part of the first round, I argue for Batman and L-M argues for Superman. Let's assume L-M wins.

At the end of round one, the scores look like this:

L-M: 1
Kleptin: 0

Scoring only counts when you argue against your position. The person serving as your partner gets no TOURNAMENT points for winning. However, the motivation for your opponent is that a win is still a win for DDO.

mmm... so, for the tournament... BOTH people can win or lose any given 'debate'...

If you beat your old arguments you win, if you don't you lose.

OR is it just that the person who beats their old arguments Best ,out of the two, wins the 'debate'
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
Puck
Posts: 6,457
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4/15/2010 3:04:13 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/15/2010 2:48:46 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 4/14/2010 10:30:44 PM, Kleptin wrote:
Let me clarify on the structure:

Let's say that L-M and I are participants that are assigned as a pair.

L-M is assigned a debate where he argued that Batman can beat Superman.
I am assigned a debate where I argue that Intelligent Design is a fraud.

In the first part of the first round, I argue PRO for Intelligent Design and L-M argues CON. Let's assume that I lose, and L-M wins.

In the second part of the first round, I argue for Batman and L-M argues for Superman. Let's assume L-M wins.

At the end of round one, the scores look like this:

L-M: 1
Kleptin: 0

Scoring only counts when you argue against your position. The person serving as your partner gets no TOURNAMENT points for winning. However, the motivation for your opponent is that a win is still a win for DDO.

mmm... so, for the tournament... BOTH people can win or lose any given 'debate'...

If you beat your old arguments you win, if you don't you lose.

OR is it just that the person who beats their old arguments Best ,out of the two, wins the 'debate'

You beat your debate you win. You beat your non debate it doesn't count. Each person is paired.