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Debating For Wins

ConservativePolitico
Posts: 8,210
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10/22/2014 8:08:24 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Debating for wins instead of for the mere enjoyment and virtue of debate has severely degraded this sites ability to function properly. How many times have you challenged someone to a debate in the forums and then they refuse to take it after they had just vehemently defended their position on the forums but then won't bring it to formal debate because they're scared of losing? It's pathetic. If you want wins we should just make a button that adds a win to your column whenever you want it because people do that anyways with noob sniping and troll debating.

This mentality has shredded the ability for people to debate because they're more worried about their ELO and win ratio than actual debate. Who cares if you're 0-20 if you gave each debate a good fight? It's damned deplorable.
9spaceking
Posts: 4,213
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10/22/2014 9:14:14 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/22/2014 8:57:12 AM, UchihaMadara wrote:
Ha! Like what anything you say matters! Your win ratio isn't even 75%! XD

please, please. CP is a mighty debater, able to compete to the likes of ClassicRobert. You're good, but you're not THAT good.
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Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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10/22/2014 10:09:24 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
I try to win every debate, but clearly I'm not scared of losing. I'll defend anything I argue in the forums.

I think you can care about winning without also being a pvssy. I don't think caring about winning and being a pvssy necessarily go hand in hand.
kbub
Posts: 1,377
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10/22/2014 10:14:31 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/22/2014 10:09:24 AM, Wylted wrote:
I try to win every debate, but clearly I'm not scared of losing. I'll defend anything I argue in the forums.

I think you can care about winning without also being a pvssy. I don't think caring about winning and being a pvssy necessarily go hand in hand.

I don't think having a vagina or the characteristics of a vagina makes one cowardly.
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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10/22/2014 10:18:10 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/22/2014 10:14:31 AM, kbub wrote:
At 10/22/2014 10:09:24 AM, Wylted wrote:
I try to win every debate, but clearly I'm not scared of losing. I'll defend anything I argue in the forums.

I think you can care about winning without also being a pvssy. I don't think caring about winning and being a pvssy necessarily go hand in hand.

I don't think having a vagina or the characteristics of a vagina makes one cowardly.

Me either. Hey we have something in common. We're like twins :)
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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10/22/2014 10:18:10 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/22/2014 10:14:31 AM, kbub wrote:
At 10/22/2014 10:09:24 AM, Wylted wrote:
I try to win every debate, but clearly I'm not scared of losing. I'll defend anything I argue in the forums.

I think you can care about winning without also being a pvssy. I don't think caring about winning and being a pvssy necessarily go hand in hand.

I don't think having a vagina or the characteristics of a vagina makes one cowardly.

Me either. Hey we have something in common. We're like twins :)
Ragnar
Posts: 1,658
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10/22/2014 10:50:45 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
I agree with the gist of what the OP said. I also second what kbub said, in that we really should never be degrading to women in an attempt to insult people (why would comparing someone to a woman, be bad in the first place? 'hey, I think you'd made a really good mother; and you probably have higher pain tolerance than me too!')

My second stalker on here refused to actually debate, while spamming accusations about drug abuse into debate comments for having any opinion other than his in the opinion section.

My third stalker was torn up to no ends for losing a debate to me, since he thought it was a truism, and that anyone who voted against him (or just not enough in his favor) is a cheater since the content of the debate didn't matter when he was clearly right.

Someone like me, the vast majority of the time when I see a flawed debate setup from a new member, I post a comment telling them how to improve it. Than there are users like Stalin, who do as the OP said, seek out wins that are so meaningless they might as well click "a button that adds a win." It's a deplorable behavior.
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imabench
Posts: 21,230
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10/22/2014 10:53:07 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
400+ wins ftw ;D

nah im just kidding, I only debated so much because for the first 2 years of my existence on here I was super-ultra-mega addicted to debating, whether it be serious topics or just troll debates.

I must say though that it is hysterical to be in the top 5 in both wins AND losses XD
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Zaradi
Posts: 14,127
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10/22/2014 1:39:14 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/22/2014 8:08:24 AM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
Debating for wins instead of for the mere enjoyment and virtue of debate has severely degraded this sites ability to function properly. How many times have you challenged someone to a debate in the forums and then they refuse to take it after they had just vehemently defended their position on the forums but then won't bring it to formal debate because they're scared of losing? It's pathetic. If you want wins we should just make a button that adds a win to your column whenever you want it because people do that anyways with noob sniping and troll debating.

This mentality has shredded the ability for people to debate because they're more worried about their ELO and win ratio than actual debate. Who cares if you're 0-20 if you gave each debate a good fight? It's damned deplorable.

Y'know, there are other factors that go into accepting a debate challenge than "do I think I'll win", right?
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philochristos
Posts: 2,614
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10/22/2014 1:53:16 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I wish I didn't care about winning, but I do. Even when I think the votes that caused me to lose were bad and ill-informed votes, I still don't like to lose. I guess my ego gets in the way of me enjoying this site as much as I could if I didn't feel like I had to protect it.
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Zaradi
Posts: 14,127
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10/22/2014 2:00:51 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/22/2014 1:57:00 PM, Maikuru wrote:
It sucks to lose...or so I'm told.

Fite me b*tch
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1harderthanyouthink
Posts: 13,102
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10/22/2014 2:05:09 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Stop trying to call out kbub.
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Maikuru
Posts: 9,112
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10/22/2014 2:09:03 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/22/2014 2:00:51 PM, Zaradi wrote:
At 10/22/2014 1:57:00 PM, Maikuru wrote:
It sucks to lose...or so I'm told.

Fite me b*tch

Debate me once, shame on me. Debate me three times...
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user_name
Posts: 120
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10/22/2014 2:09:47 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/22/2014 8:08:24 AM, ConservativePolitico wrote:

I totally disagree with you and would be willing to debate you on this, ironically.
Best wishes,
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YYW
Posts: 36,391
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10/22/2014 2:13:29 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/22/2014 8:08:24 AM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
Debating for wins instead of for the mere enjoyment and virtue of debate has severely degraded this sites ability to function properly. How many times have you challenged someone to a debate in the forums and then they refuse to take it after they had just vehemently defended their position on the forums but then won't bring it to formal debate because they're scared of losing? It's pathetic. If you want wins we should just make a button that adds a win to your column whenever you want it because people do that anyways with noob sniping and troll debating.

This mentality has shredded the ability for people to debate because they're more worried about their ELO and win ratio than actual debate. Who cares if you're 0-20 if you gave each debate a good fight? It's damned deplorable.

I don't think so. As Zaradi mentioned, there's a whole lot going on in the decision process to have a debate, or not. Generally with me, I like to discuss things in a non-adversarial setting (like the forums) where (1) there is no substantive limit on how much can be said, such that the conversation can continue for the life of unresolved issues, (2) other people have the opportunity to weigh in in a capacity that's more than just voting and (3) there are no strict time limits to when I can respond and the responses that are required in the forums generally take less time than posting rounds in debates.

That said, there are problems with debating as well: (1) length - I think that debates of five rounds with ten thousand characters of space allocated to each debater per round is overboard. (2) degree of controversy - while I think that some debaters are more or less able to remove themselves and evaluate rounds from a perspective where they are not measuring the "strength" of arguments by "conformity" to the judges subjective belief, there are many more yet that do not have that ability, and render subtly, though demonstrably biased RFD's.

The impact of the first is that long debates are more likely to be judged by people who have defined views on those subjects, and those who have defined views on those subjects tend to evaluate the relative strength and weakness of arguments based on what their own beliefs. This is a phenomenon that is more pronounced with some than others, but it's still an issue that I think we're all more or less aware of, and it's the reason that I think many (even some of our best debaters) don't really debate anymore.

But, returning more directly to the OP's point, winning is fun and losing sucks. That's kind of a universal thing. When was the last time that you ever heard anyone say (and mean) that they enjoyed doing something even though they lost -especially where they thought they deserved to win? I know it's the "sportsman like" thing to do after a debate is over to say "good game" or "nice debate" or whatever, but just as lawyers only take cases that they are at least reasonably sure they can win, so too to debaters on DDO only defend resolutions they are confident about and generally against debaters that they are more than reasonably sure they can beat. I don't think that's a bad thing.
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philochristos
Posts: 2,614
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10/22/2014 2:48:35 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/22/2014 2:13:29 PM, YYW wrote:
Generally with me, I like to discuss things in a non-adversarial setting (like the forums) where (1) there is no substantive limit on how much can be said, such that the conversation can continue for the life of unresolved issues,

Wow, you and I are opposites. I like for discussions/debates to have a stopping place. I haven't always been this way, though.

(2) other people have the opportunity to weigh in in a capacity that's more than just voting

Well, there's the comment section of debates.

When was the last time that you ever heard anyone say (and mean) that they enjoyed doing something even though they lost -especially where they thought they deserved to win?

I can say that in one case. My debate with Heineken on Star Trek technology was one of my most enjoyable debates since I've been here even though I lost and I think I deserved to win. Of course the loss bothered me, especially because Heineken had a perfect win record, and I wanted to dethrone him, and because I was winning up until the last few hours before voting ended. But my disappointment at having lost the debate didn't take away from how much I enjoyed it, and I have no regrets.
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thett3
Posts: 14,378
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10/22/2014 4:04:56 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/22/2014 10:14:31 AM, kbub wrote:
At 10/22/2014 10:09:24 AM, Wylted wrote:
I try to win every debate, but clearly I'm not scared of losing. I'll defend anything I argue in the forums.

I think you can care about winning without also being a pvssy. I don't think caring about winning and being a pvssy necessarily go hand in hand.

I don't think having a vagina or the characteristics of a vagina makes one cowardly.

Don't worry, he texted me and told me he meant to say weenie
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UchihaMadara
Posts: 1,049
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10/22/2014 4:49:50 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/22/2014 9:14:14 AM, 9spaceking wrote:
At 10/22/2014 8:57:12 AM, UchihaMadara wrote:
Ha! Like what anything you say matters! Your win ratio isn't even 75%! XD

please, please. CP is a mighty debater, able to compete to the likes of ClassicRobert. You're good, but you're not THAT good.

I was kidding... -_-

I do want to debate CP at some point, though. Looks like we disagree on plenty.
UchihaMadara
Posts: 1,049
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10/22/2014 4:52:00 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/22/2014 10:14:31 AM, kbub wrote:
At 10/22/2014 10:09:24 AM, Wylted wrote:
I try to win every debate, but clearly I'm not scared of losing. I'll defend anything I argue in the forums.

I think you can care about winning without also being a pvssy. I don't think caring about winning and being a pvssy necessarily go hand in hand.

I don't think having a vagina or the characteristics of a vagina makes one cowardly.

kbub, have you ever heard about how words and phrases can mean different things in different contexts?
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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10/22/2014 6:14:21 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/22/2014 4:04:56 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 10/22/2014 10:14:31 AM, kbub wrote:
At 10/22/2014 10:09:24 AM, Wylted wrote:
I try to win every debate, but clearly I'm not scared of losing. I'll defend anything I argue in the forums.

I think you can care about winning without also being a pvssy. I don't think caring about winning and being a pvssy necessarily go hand in hand.

I don't think having a vagina or the characteristics of a vagina makes one cowardly.

Don't worry, he texted me and told me he meant to say weenie

weenie, vagina same thing.