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10 reasons to give up ableist language

Linkish1O2
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11/7/2014 5:30:55 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/7/2014 4:41:47 PM, kbub wrote:
10 reasons to give up ableist language:
http://m.huffpost.com...

Oh no not more spam ads!
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kbub
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11/7/2014 6:08:12 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/7/2014 5:30:55 PM, Linkish1O2 wrote:
At 11/7/2014 4:41:47 PM, kbub wrote:
10 reasons to give up ableist language:
http://m.huffpost.com...

Oh no not more spam ads!

Not a spam ad. Just follow-up. And 10 reasons to give up ableist language.
bsh1
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11/7/2014 6:12:31 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I can see the point of all of these reasons, but, at the same time, I am hesitant to proscribe what people ought or ought not to say if no harm is meant.
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thett3
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11/7/2014 6:14:44 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
How about an article titled "Top ten reasons you shouldn't pretend to not be a white male so you can score political points"?
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ESocialBookworm
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11/7/2014 6:16:05 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
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YYW
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11/7/2014 6:36:43 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/7/2014 4:41:47 PM, kbub wrote:
10 reasons to give up ableist language:
http://m.huffpost.com...

"Insanity" is a legal term, not a medical one. The term describes a medical condition, but it is not "ableist" in any meaningful way.

"Moron" was also, historically, more used in law than in the field of mental health. It's also an antiquated term that hasn't really been used since the 60s, with any regularity. I've read some cases from the 70's, but not many, that make use of the word. Again, not ableist. It's a descriptive term of one's mental state, and referring to someone/thing as a moron/moronic isn't "ableist." It's not polite, but it's not discriminatory.

"Retarded" might fall within the category of "ableist" when used in the context to describe those not clinically mentally deficient, but legal terms -though they carry cultural connotative weight- such that the main point of the article doesn't have a whole lot of gravity.

That's not to say that we should be politically incorrect for the sake of doing so, or that we should use words that may be offensive to other people without good cause. But, describing them as "ableist" is a bit of a reach.
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bluesteel
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11/7/2014 6:57:04 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/7/2014 4:41:47 PM, kbub wrote:
10 reasons to give up ableist language:
http://m.huffpost.com...

Despite "10 reasons" sounding better because it makes nice "link bait," this article boils down to one reason: words have power (to reify oppression and cause discomfort among non-able-bodied people).

The article is subject to the same criticisms of your last thread, kbub.

(1) Who the f**k cares?

The article mentions this phrase as being improper: "They're just blind to the suffering of other people." Presumably, this phrase is offensive to blind people. Have you ever seen a blind person get mad when the news say that we are blind to third world suffering? It's a freaking metaphor. Unlike the words that have to do with mental disabilities, the word "blind" was never used by clinicians in a derogatory manner. It just means you can't see something. The article also criticizes people for calling the President's policies "lame," or presumably the term "lame duck Congress," to mean a Congress that can't get anything done.

(2) This is just speaking for others

I have a hard time believing that the majority of blind people would object to the phrase, "We are blind to third world suffering." I have a hard time believing that most people with physical disabilities would object to the term "lame" being used in politics to refer to a do-nothing Congress. I doubt the majority of schizophrenics would object to the phrase, "Wow, Putin was acting really crazy when he decided he was going to threaten to invade Poland." I'm sure it's fun to get outraged on other people's behalf, but the world has enough problems that you don't need to go manufacturing ones that no one really cares about.

Masked somewhere in this article is a potentially more powerful criticism of the words "imbecile" etc. that have their history. The point about the N-word would be a better analogy if the article limited itself to specific words, instead of criticism able-ist language in general. It weakens its own agenda.

(3) Stop manufacturing oppression

Are there still chauvinistic attitudes in society? Yes, among some people. Are there still racists? Definitely. Non-racists who have implicit bias? Yes. Do a lot of people think non-able-bodied people are less capable of doing the same job as an able-bodied person? Yup. Maybe that's the barrier and attitude to break down. But unlike the N-word or the B-word, this able-ist language is *not* a symptom of the bias against non-able-bodied or minded people. People don't say they are "blind to problems in Africa" because they hate blind people. Trying to link ableist language to the N-word is just stupid.

(4) You know an issue is dumb when it's a complain-fest, not a debate.

You keep making these threads kbub, but you won't actually respond to anyone's criticisms in them. It's the same with your beloved article and the people who whine about able-ist language in Vlogs. They can't seriously contend with the objectors, and if you really want to make any headway, you're going to have to convince the naysayers. I can be hardheaded, but if good enough points are made against me, I will eventually rethink my position. Personally, I think that puts me in the top 10% in this country as far as being able to critically evaluate my own positions. Most people cling to their beliefs like they will go to Hell if they change their minds. So if you can't even engage seriously with someone like me, forget the struggle because the cause is really just a group therapy session for people to complain to other people who already agree with them.

(5) What you're missing is someone who is disabled actually saying how this makes them feel.

The article hints that the author is not able bodied, but she never expresses her own personal reaction to these type of words. Same with the Vlogs you linked before: they were able bodied people complaining. I assume you are also able bodied, based on seeing your video debate, but who knows. Point being, if you have a legitimate critique, people are only going to listen if you actually prove it has an impact on someone's psyche.

Take for example the criticisms that Stage 4 cancer victims have of the "survivor" language and culture. The idea that cancer is a "battle" can be very defeating to someone with stage 4 cancer because it's like you're telling them they lost the battle. Like they had any hand in it. For those who only found out when they were already stage 4, there was nothing they could do. It's not like they declined chemo or surgery. And organizations like Susan B. Kolmein who tout all these feel good "survivor" stories do nothing to help the large number of people who are not going to survive cope with the disease. It makes cancer only about surviving it, and if you've been given a death sentence, people want to shuttle you into the back corner so you don't bum everyone else out. Given that these women express their *personal experiences* with organizations like Susan B. Kolmein and with the "survivor" and "battle" terminology, I can actually see where they are coming from. But someone who is in a wheelchair telling me that the phrase "blind to suffering" is offensive to blind people is just stupid, frankly.

Pick your battles. This is not the right one.
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)
YYW
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11/7/2014 7:09:07 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/7/2014 6:57:04 PM, bluesteel wrote:
At 11/7/2014 4:41:47 PM, kbub wrote:
10 reasons to give up ableist language:
http://m.huffpost.com...

Despite "10 reasons" sounding better because it makes nice "link bait," this article boils down to one reason: words have power (to reify oppression and cause discomfort among non-able-bodied people).

The article is subject to the same criticisms of your last thread, kbub.

(1) Who the f**k cares?

The article mentions this phrase as being improper: "They're just blind to the suffering of other people." Presumably, this phrase is offensive to blind people. Have you ever seen a blind person get mad when the news say that we are blind to third world suffering? It's a freaking metaphor. Unlike the words that have to do with mental disabilities, the word "blind" was never used by clinicians in a derogatory manner. It just means you can't see something. The article also criticizes people for calling the President's policies "lame," or presumably the term "lame duck Congress," to mean a Congress that can't get anything done.

(2) This is just speaking for others

I have a hard time believing that the majority of blind people would object to the phrase, "We are blind to third world suffering." I have a hard time believing that most people with physical disabilities would object to the term "lame" being used in politics to refer to a do-nothing Congress. I doubt the majority of schizophrenics would object to the phrase, "Wow, Putin was acting really crazy when he decided he was going to threaten to invade Poland." I'm sure it's fun to get outraged on other people's behalf, but the world has enough problems that you don't need to go manufacturing ones that no one really cares about.

Masked somewhere in this article is a potentially more powerful criticism of the words "imbecile" etc. that have their history. The point about the N-word would be a better analogy if the article limited itself to specific words, instead of criticism able-ist language in general. It weakens its own agenda.

(3) Stop manufacturing oppression

Are there still chauvinistic attitudes in society? Yes, among some people. Are there still racists? Definitely. Non-racists who have implicit bias? Yes. Do a lot of people think non-able-bodied people are less capable of doing the same job as an able-bodied person? Yup. Maybe that's the barrier and attitude to break down. But unlike the N-word or the B-word, this able-ist language is *not* a symptom of the bias against non-able-bodied or minded people. People don't say they are "blind to problems in Africa" because they hate blind people. Trying to link ableist language to the N-word is just stupid.

(4) You know an issue is dumb when it's a complain-fest, not a debate.

You keep making these threads kbub, but you won't actually respond to anyone's criticisms in them. It's the same with your beloved article and the people who whine about able-ist language in Vlogs. They can't seriously contend with the objectors, and if you really want to make any headway, you're going to have to convince the naysayers. I can be hardheaded, but if good enough points are made against me, I will eventually rethink my position. Personally, I think that puts me in the top 10% in this country as far as being able to critically evaluate my own positions. Most people cling to their beliefs like they will go to Hell if they change their minds. So if you can't even engage seriously with someone like me, forget the struggle because the cause is really just a group therapy session for people to complain to other people who already agree with them.

(5) What you're missing is someone who is disabled actually saying how this makes them feel.

The article hints that the author is not able bodied, but she never expresses her own personal reaction to these type of words. Same with the Vlogs you linked before: they were able bodied people complaining. I assume you are also able bodied, based on seeing your video debate, but who knows. Point being, if you have a legitimate critique, people are only going to listen if you actually prove it has an impact on someone's psyche.

Take for example the criticisms that Stage 4 cancer victims have of the "survivor" language and culture. The idea that cancer is a "battle" can be very defeating to someone with stage 4 cancer because it's like you're telling them they lost the battle. Like they had any hand in it. For those who only found out when they were already stage 4, there was nothing they could do. It's not like they declined chemo or surgery. And organizations like Susan B. Kolmein who tout all these feel good "survivor" stories do nothing to help the large number of people who are not going to survive cope with the disease. It makes cancer only about surviving it, and if you've been given a death sentence, people want to shuttle you into the back corner so you don't bum everyone else out. Given that these women express their *personal experiences* with organizations like Susan B. Kolmein and with the "survivor" and "battle" terminology, I can actually see where they are coming from. But someone who is in a wheelchair telling me that the phrase "blind to suffering" is offensive to blind people is just stupid, frankly.

Pick your battles. This is not the right one.

I pretty much agree with all of this, but I didn't want to take the time to write anything like it out.

I applaud kbub's concern for the less fortunate, but this might be a bit over the line.
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Vox_Veritas
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11/7/2014 7:12:01 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/7/2014 6:16:05 PM, ESocialBookworm wrote:
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Well played.
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mortsdor
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11/7/2014 7:21:22 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/7/2014 4:41:47 PM, kbub wrote:
10 reasons to give up ableist language:
http://m.huffpost.com...

lol,

someone who's blind is blind

blind is just a word to describe being blind.

the word dis-abled is kind of maybe more depressing I suppose... and unnecessary to use in reference to particular people (unlike the word blind)

For example if there's a blind guy, and your telling someone about them it might be relevant to say "He's Blind... blah blah blah.."
You don't really have to say "He's disabled.." though I'm not sure that's necessarily a bad thing if you do.

However, the word disabled can be useful in describing various conditions like handing out passes to people who have one of a variety of issues..

Should we instead dance around the fact that they have issues that make things more difficult/ make them less capable than they otherwise would be?

How should we describe a blind guys condition if not by saying he's blind.. would it be better if we said "He can't see at all" rather than "he's blind" how's that better or gentler or more respectful?

it doesn't seem like that would be better or gentler or more respectful... it seems stupid.
mortsdor
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11/7/2014 7:25:18 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/7/2014 6:57:04 PM, bluesteel wrote:
"They're just blind to the suffering of other people." Presumably, this phrase is offensive to blind people.

Ah, is that what it's about..

got it.. still dumb, lol.... but got it.

- - -

(ok, I can kind of see dumb being offensive for being used as meaning stupid, lol)
jh1234lnew
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11/7/2014 7:43:25 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/7/2014 4:41:47 PM, kbub wrote:
10 reasons to give up ableist language:
http://m.huffpost.com...

The problem is that going on an euphemism treadmill ends up making the euphemism acquire the same negative connotations as the original word, while actually removing the negative social stigma around existing words through proper education solves the entire problem.
jh1234lnew
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11/7/2014 7:45:30 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/7/2014 4:41:47 PM, kbub wrote:
10 reasons to give up ableist language:
http://m.huffpost.com...

Also, just because one word has an insulting meaning in one context doesn't mean that it can't be used in an alternative context meaning something else.

Crippled and other similar words may be insulting in one context, but going on an euphemism treadmill and claiming that it is also still insulting in other contexts does not accurately represent what the word actually means.
bluesteel
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11/7/2014 7:48:06 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/7/2014 7:25:18 PM, mortsdor wrote:
At 11/7/2014 6:57:04 PM, bluesteel wrote:
"They're just blind to the suffering of other people." Presumably, this phrase is offensive to blind people.

Ah, is that what it's about..

got it.. still dumb, lol.... but got it.

- - -

(ok, I can kind of see dumb being offensive for being used as meaning stupid, lol)

You have a point though. Without quote unquote "ableist" language, it'd be really hard to express some points. Is there really a better way to say, "that's a dumb argument." My English teacher would have a knipshin fit if I said, "that argument is ... not good." Saying something is "not good" is not very descriptive. Likewise, there's no better way to express people being "blind" to a certain problem. You can say people "ignore" it, but that doesn't invoke the same kind of invisibility of certain problems. People "ignore" most of the political decisions that are made in the US, whereas they are completely blind to third world problems. It's a different level of ignoring.

The N-word doesn't serve a valid rhetorical purpose in society, whereas so-called "ableist" language does, so it's kinda of stupid to argue we should remove it from our lexicon. You're seriously limiting how well people can express themselves.
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)
thett3
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11/7/2014 8:22:39 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I'd like to hear an explanation from kbub as to why he twice pretended to be a minority in jimtimmys thread, and what language we are supposed to use to describe stupid things if we are denied these words.
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: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
Envisage
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11/7/2014 8:24:48 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/7/2014 8:22:39 PM, thett3 wrote:
I'd like to hear an explanation from kbub as to why he twice pretended to be a minority in jimtimmys thread, and what language we are supposed to use to describe stupid things if we are denied these words.

You used 'stupid', that's offensive and hence you should be banned.
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11/7/2014 8:26:34 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/7/2014 8:24:48 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 11/7/2014 8:22:39 PM, thett3 wrote:
I'd like to hear an explanation from kbub as to why he twice pretended to be a minority in jimtimmys thread, and what language we are supposed to use to describe stupid things if we are denied these words.

You used 'stupid', that's offensive and hence you should be banned.

How dare you use the word "ban" when you know it comes from the term banished? As someone who's ancestors were banished from the Scottish border, I am deeply offended by your insensitive word choice.
DDO Vice President

#StandwithBossy

#UnbanTheMadman

#BetOnThett

"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
Khaos_Mage
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11/7/2014 8:29:18 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/7/2014 7:48:06 PM, bluesteel wrote:

The N-word doesn't serve a valid rhetorical purpose in society, whereas so-called "ableist" language does, so it's kinda of stupid to argue we should remove it from our lexicon. You're seriously limiting how well people can express themselves.

Have you ever considered that is the goal?
My work here is, finally, done.
Cermank
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11/7/2014 8:40:01 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/7/2014 7:48:06 PM, bluesteel wrote:
At 11/7/2014 7:25:18 PM, mortsdor wrote:
At 11/7/2014 6:57:04 PM, bluesteel wrote:
"They're just blind to the suffering of other people." Presumably, this phrase is offensive to blind people.

Ah, is that what it's about..

got it.. still dumb, lol.... but got it.

- - -

(ok, I can kind of see dumb being offensive for being used as meaning stupid, lol)

You have a point though. Without quote unquote "ableist" language, it'd be really hard to express some points. Is there really a better way to say, "that's a dumb argument." My English teacher would have a knipshin fit if I said, "that argument is ... not good." Saying something is "not good" is not very descriptive. Likewise, there's no better way to express people being "blind" to a certain problem. You can say people "ignore" it, but that doesn't invoke the same kind of invisibility of certain problems. People "ignore" most of the political decisions that are made in the US, whereas they are completely blind to third world problems. It's a different level of ignoring.

The N-word doesn't serve a valid rhetorical purpose in society, whereas so-called "ableist" language does, so it's kinda of stupid to argue we should remove it from our lexicon. You're seriously limiting how well people can express themselves.

I'm not sure how much I agree with this. Even though I'm probably not the best person to argue for the OP, given that my own RL english vocabulary is pretty 'offensive', if we're using the OP terminology.

But I'm working at censoring myself, and mainly because sometimes, the context does make it offensive. 'This is a dumb argument', for example. Literally means that the argument doesn't say anything, it's void. But then in status quo, the word dumb is used to mean stupid. If I were dumb, I would find the equivocation sad and alienating.

Its more of a context, I would say. I was at this deaf people meetup with my sister a while back, and there was this discussion. The general consensus there was that usage of 'ableist' words isn't offensive if its literal. If you can't hear something and you use the word 'deaf' to describe the situation (gd you're deaf!), that's literal. Its what it is. But using the word deaf to imply non normalcy, or inability to understand normal stuff, that's offensive to them.

Plus, restricting usage of certain words motivates me to broaden my vocabulary, so there's that of course. But yeah, I don't think the OP is completely unworthy of consideration.
sadolite
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11/7/2014 8:49:25 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Lets all just stop talking to each other. I am so sick of political correctness I could vomit.
It's not your views that divide us, it's what you think my views should be that divides us.

If you think I will give up my rights and forsake social etiquette to make you "FEEL" better you are sadly mistaken

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11/7/2014 8:52:14 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
http://www.returnofkings.com...
404 coherent debate topic not found. Please restart the debate with clear resolution.


Uphold Marxist-Leninist-Maoist-Sargonist-n7ism.
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11/7/2014 9:18:05 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/7/2014 9:05:04 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 11/7/2014 8:52:14 PM, n7 wrote:
http://www.returnofkings.com...

http://s.quickmeme.com...

Op is a SJW
404 coherent debate topic not found. Please restart the debate with clear resolution.


Uphold Marxist-Leninist-Maoist-Sargonist-n7ism.
donald.keller
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11/7/2014 11:26:11 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/7/2014 4:41:47 PM, kbub wrote:
10 reasons to give up ableist language:
http://m.huffpost.com...

If saying "President X crippled the economy" offends a crippled person, that person should f*ck off and stop acting like a baby.

If you get offended that easily, than you are one step away from (if not already) the tyrant the First Amendment was made to protect people from.
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donald.keller
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11/7/2014 11:36:44 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/7/2014 8:26:34 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 11/7/2014 8:24:48 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 11/7/2014 8:22:39 PM, thett3 wrote:
I'd like to hear an explanation from kbub as to why he twice pretended to be a minority in jimtimmys thread, and what language we are supposed to use to describe stupid things if we are denied these words.

You used 'stupid', that's offensive and hence you should be banned.

How dare you use the word "ban" when you know it comes from the term banished? As someone who's ancestors were banished from the Scottish border, I am deeply offended by your insensitive word choice.

How dare you use the word "insensitive"! As someone who is insensitive, I take great offense to your use of that word as an insult. I hope you feel good about yourself!

D,:
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Unitomic
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11/7/2014 11:39:17 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/7/2014 11:36:44 PM, donald.keller wrote:
At 11/7/2014 8:26:34 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 11/7/2014 8:24:48 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 11/7/2014 8:22:39 PM, thett3 wrote:
I'd like to hear an explanation from kbub as to why he twice pretended to be a minority in jimtimmys thread, and what language we are supposed to use to describe stupid things if we are denied these words.

You used 'stupid', that's offensive and hence you should be banned.

How dare you use the word "ban" when you know it comes from the term banished? As someone who's ancestors were banished from the Scottish border, I am deeply offended by your insensitive word choice.

How dare you use the word "insensitive"! As someone who is insensitive, I take great offense to your use of that word as an insult. I hope you feel good about yourself!

D,:

How dare you use the word great. As a man who knows a man with a small penis, I take great offense to your talking of great things in him place!
donald.keller
Posts: 3,709
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11/7/2014 11:41:07 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/7/2014 11:39:17 PM, Unitomic wrote:
At 11/7/2014 11:36:44 PM, donald.keller wrote:
At 11/7/2014 8:26:34 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 11/7/2014 8:24:48 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 11/7/2014 8:22:39 PM, thett3 wrote:
I'd like to hear an explanation from kbub as to why he twice pretended to be a minority in jimtimmys thread, and what language we are supposed to use to describe stupid things if we are denied these words.

You used 'stupid', that's offensive and hence you should be banned.

How dare you use the word "ban" when you know it comes from the term banished? As someone who's ancestors were banished from the Scottish border, I am deeply offended by your insensitive word choice.

How dare you use the word "insensitive"! As someone who is insensitive, I take great offense to your use of that word as an insult. I hope you feel good about yourself!

D,:

How dare you use the word great. As a man who knows a man with a small penis, I take great offense to your talking of great things in him place!

How dare you use the word penis! As a man with a penis, I take great offense to the use of that term!
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Unitomic
Posts: 591
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11/7/2014 11:42:25 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/7/2014 11:41:07 PM, donald.keller wrote:
At 11/7/2014 11:39:17 PM, Unitomic wrote:
At 11/7/2014 11:36:44 PM, donald.keller wrote:
At 11/7/2014 8:26:34 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 11/7/2014 8:24:48 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 11/7/2014 8:22:39 PM, thett3 wrote:
I'd like to hear an explanation from kbub as to why he twice pretended to be a minority in jimtimmys thread, and what language we are supposed to use to describe stupid things if we are denied these words.

You used 'stupid', that's offensive and hence you should be banned.

How dare you use the word "ban" when you know it comes from the term banished? As someone who's ancestors were banished from the Scottish border, I am deeply offended by your insensitive word choice.

How dare you use the word "insensitive"! As someone who is insensitive, I take great offense to your use of that word as an insult. I hope you feel good about yourself!

D,:

How dare you use the word great. As a man who knows a man with a small penis, I take great offense to your talking of great things in him place!

How dare you use the word penis! As a man with a penis, I take great offense to the use of that term!

Oh, so now your sexist as well?!?!?!! You should be ashamed of that penis!