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Kleptin
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5/4/2010 7:03:29 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
The Messiah who has appeared recently, saying that his mission was to bring "peace" to DDO made me think of ways to actually make that change, and I came up with the following:

Since the addition of the forums to DDO, exchange between members has shifted greatly from debates to forum discussion. With a debate, there is a mediating factor to the exchange of ideas: the fact that your arguments are judged and scrutinized according to a scale and would eventually have an impact on your rating overall.

This does not exist for the forum, as of yet.

Though some may argue that the forum is a place where one can speak freely about issues without having a voting system or a rubric hanging over one's head, I personally believe that some actions should be drawn out into the light as things that hinder the exchange of ideas on the forum. The following are ones that seem to be the most common, and ones that I myself have performed in the past and will no longer perform in the future.

1. "Fix'd"

There is a relatively new trend in which one person who is part of a discussion decides to quote and rewrite a point in an alternate way. While oftentimes, this can be a humorous and effective way to illustrate a counterpoint, it can cause more confusion and bad blood than actual good. Though the temptation to do so can be great if you notice a point that seems absurd, it illustrates an intense lack of respect. It is patronizing and misintreprets the opponent more often than it elucidates an important contradiction. It can lead to a breeding ground for miscommunication and misunderstanding, and is always done with the assumption that one person understands his opponent's argument more than he does.

I propose that instead of using this tactic, people should actually take the time to quote a section they find contradictory, illogical, or otherwise absurd, and ask their opponent to clarify, while pointing out what they believe the contradiction to be.

2. "Sigged"

This isn't a new phenomenon, but it still should be avoided. Taking an opponent's point out of context and "sigging" it for ridicule probably isn't the most respectful thing to do. Each thread should be considered a closed entity in which a person should be able to freely argue his or her beliefs from a clean slate. Although it is inevitable to assume certain things about each member since we are such a small community, we should at least *try* to treat each new thread as a new debate instead of a continuation of a person's beliefs as a whole. Taking a person's argument out of context is bad enough, but having it advertised as a thing of ridicule is something that is undeserved. Also in this category is the act of using the signature space as direct humiliation of any member, whether something was quoted or not.

3. "Calling out"

Creating thread topics purely to call a specific someone out, to expose them, or to criticize them, is disrespectful. While there may be some exceptions, such as with notable items of news, or things that are pertinent and important in terms of the community, creating a forum post just to insult or criticize a particular person's views should be avoided.

I have been guilty of these things countless times on DDO and promise to refrain from repeating those actions to the best of my ability. I think that by doing so, we can promote more productive discussions and peace between members.
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
belle
Posts: 4,113
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5/4/2010 7:07:41 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/4/2010 7:03:29 PM, Kleptin wrote:
the internet is serious business

uhuh.

on a non douchey note, i find all those things funny and not at all harmful. while its certainly true that people sometimes take things too far, i see no reason we should stop screwing around in a mainly harmless way because a few outliers may get their feelings hurt.
evidently i only come to ddo to avoid doing homework...
Xer
Posts: 7,776
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5/4/2010 7:12:06 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
I have no problem with what Kleptin is suggesting in serious threads, like the thread "Taxing consumption, not income." (Wjm, pay attention.) However, in some non-serious threads, like Mafia games and other random stuff, I think the above can be funny and harmless.
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,926
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5/4/2010 7:12:55 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/4/2010 7:07:41 PM, belle wrote:
At 5/4/2010 7:03:29 PM, Kleptin wrote:
the internet is serious business

uhuh.


10/10

Couldn't pass that one up. XD

I sympathize with you Kleptin...but I think we have a fair balance here.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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5/4/2010 7:12:57 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
I agree Kleptin. Mind you, I don't know how necessary it is. In most actual debates on the forums, people don't actually do these things. It's only when you get the most juvenile and the random, let's call them "outliers," who come in to view the thread and then pick up on one point to be d*cks on, that this really happens.
Messiah
Posts: 88
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5/4/2010 7:30:09 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/4/2010 7:03:29 PM, Kleptin wrote:
The Messiah who has appeared recently, saying that his mission was to bring "peace" to DDO made me think of ways to actually make that change, and I came up with the following:

Since the addition of the forums to DDO, exchange between members has shifted greatly from debates to forum discussion. With a debate, there is a mediating factor to the exchange of ideas: the fact that your arguments are judged and scrutinized according to a scale and would eventually have an impact on your rating overall.

This does not exist for the forum, as of yet.

Though some may argue that the forum is a place where one can speak freely about issues without having a voting system or a rubric hanging over one's head, I personally believe that some actions should be drawn out into the light as things that hinder the exchange of ideas on the forum. The following are ones that seem to be the most common, and ones that I myself have performed in the past and will no longer perform in the future.

1. "Fix'd"

There is a relatively new trend in which one person who is part of a discussion decides to quote and rewrite a point in an alternate way. While oftentimes, this can be a humorous and effective way to illustrate a counterpoint, it can cause more confusion and bad blood than actual good. Though the temptation to do so can be great if you notice a point that seems absurd, it illustrates an intense lack of respect. It is patronizing and misintreprets the opponent more often than it elucidates an important contradiction. It can lead to a breeding ground for miscommunication and misunderstanding, and is always done with the assumption that one person understands his opponent's argument more than he does.

I propose that instead of using this tactic, people should actually take the time to quote a section they find contradictory, illogical, or otherwise absurd, and ask their opponent to clarify, while pointing out what they believe the contradiction to be.

2. "Sigged"

This isn't a new phenomenon, but it still should be avoided. Taking an opponent's point out of context and "sigging" it for ridicule probably isn't the most respectful thing to do. Each thread should be considered a closed entity in which a person should be able to freely argue his or her beliefs from a clean slate. Although it is inevitable to assume certain things about each member since we are such a small community, we should at least *try* to treat each new thread as a new debate instead of a continuation of a person's beliefs as a whole. Taking a person's argument out of context is bad enough, but having it advertised as a thing of ridicule is something that is undeserved. Also in this category is the act of using the signature space as direct humiliation of any member, whether something was quoted or not.

3. "Calling out"

Creating thread topics purely to call a specific someone out, to expose them, or to criticize them, is disrespectful. While there may be some exceptions, such as with notable items of news, or things that are pertinent and important in terms of the community, creating a forum post just to insult or criticize a particular person's views should be avoided.

I have been guilty of these things countless times on DDO and promise to refrain from repeating those actions to the best of my ability. I think that by doing so, we can promote more productive discussions and peace between members.

A lot of those things are new to me since I haven't been here long (before this I read debates not forums), but from what I'm understanding those do have a potential to cause issues. I respect that you are noting this now before it get's out of hand, and I will follow these guidlines
Xer
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5/4/2010 7:30:40 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/4/2010 7:27:05 PM, wjmelements wrote:
Hypocrisy ftw

How so? Show me the serious threads where I have ad hominem'd or appealed to ridicule as much as you, or at all. I can be harsh on non-serious forums, but I don't wreck serious forums like you.

Seriously, if you're going to debate economics, take a course first.

Okay, thanks wjm. This quote was almost as good as you re-quoting all of my arguments. Well done.
wjmelements
Posts: 8,206
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5/4/2010 7:36:57 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Just clicking on a random page.

At 2/25/2010 6:19:57 PM, Nags wrote:
At 2/25/2010 6:15:55 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 2/25/2010 6:14:44 PM, Reasoning wrote:
Speak for yourself.

Do you have an economics degree, Reasoning? Or have you worked as an accountant, in an accountant's office, or done anything in relation to this sort of thing?

I suggest you shut up about this.

Otherwise, you should shut up about politics because you don't have a degree in political science.

You should also shut up about health care and the economy because you don't have a degree in economics.

See how stupid that sounds?
in the blink of an eye you finally see the light
Xer
Posts: 7,776
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5/4/2010 7:39:28 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/4/2010 7:36:57 PM, wjmelements wrote:
Just clicking on a random page.

At 2/25/2010 6:19:57 PM, Nags wrote:
At 2/25/2010 6:15:55 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 2/25/2010 6:14:44 PM, Reasoning wrote:
Speak for yourself.

Do you have an economics degree, Reasoning? Or have you worked as an accountant, in an accountant's office, or done anything in relation to this sort of thing?

I suggest you shut up about this.

Otherwise, you should shut up about politics because you don't have a degree in political science.

You should also shut up about health care and the economy because you don't have a degree in economics.

See how stupid that sounds?

Volkov was telling Reasoning that his opinion was invalid because he didn't have a degree in economics. I used Volkov's logic against him. It's a shame you didn't read the thread in context.
Xer
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5/4/2010 7:42:33 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/4/2010 7:36:57 PM, wjmelements wrote:
Just clicking on a random page.

At 2/25/2010 6:19:57 PM, Nags wrote:

Random? It's so random the thread is from three months ago? Lol. Link please.
wjmelements
Posts: 8,206
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5/4/2010 7:43:43 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/26/2010 2:50:33 PM, Nags wrote:
At 1/26/2010 2:43:15 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Those two contradict each other. But I'm pretty sure most IEP writers aren't libertarians, and surer yet that, as I said, THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS AN EXPERT IN PHILOSOPHY.

Lol. But you're an expert though? It's funny, all these people say the same thing on a very basic simple concept and you just keep saying no no no no no no no. It's comical, really.

http://plato.stanford.edu...

And the SEP is also wrong? It's funny, they don't mention the NAP once in that article.
It's funny, that url has Plato in it. Plato was a proto-commie :)

Not an argument.

You're wrong, just wrong, and you can't argue otherwise, that's just the way it is.

See how stupid that sounds? It accomplishes nothing. It's like you're waving a pen and hoping it's a magic wand that releases you from the responsibility of making a case.

No, not at this point in time. YOU AREN'T MAKING A CASE LMFAO. You haven't made a case the entire argument. It feels like I'm talking to a wall. Skeptic was clearly confused with your otherwise good knowledge of libertarianism. You're saying that ALL libertarians must believe in the NAP BECAUSE YOU SAY SO. Legit, that's your argument, and nothing else.
in the blink of an eye you finally see the light
wjmelements
Posts: 8,206
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5/4/2010 7:44:19 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/4/2010 7:42:33 PM, Nags wrote:
At 5/4/2010 7:36:57 PM, wjmelements wrote:
Just clicking on a random page.

At 2/25/2010 6:19:57 PM, Nags wrote:

Random? It's so random the thread is from three months ago? Lol. Link please.
in the blink of an eye you finally see the light
Kleptin
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5/4/2010 7:45:01 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/4/2010 7:12:06 PM, Nags wrote:
I have no problem with what Kleptin is suggesting in serious threads, like the thread "Taxing consumption, not income." (Wjm, pay attention.) However, in some non-serious threads, like Mafia games and other random stuff, I think the above can be funny and harmless.

^This.

I didn't think anyone would interpret what I proposed as some sort of ban or general policy to be applied to all topics, that would hurt the forum. The vast majority of threads created on this site are casual discussion, but some aren't, and we can get some gems there. I think it's plain to see which threads are "serious business" and which aren't :P
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
wjmelements
Posts: 8,206
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5/4/2010 7:45:31 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
My bad, meant to respond.

At 5/4/2010 7:44:19 PM, wjmelements wrote:
At 5/4/2010 7:42:33 PM, Nags wrote:
At 5/4/2010 7:36:57 PM, wjmelements wrote:
Just clicking on a random page.

At 2/25/2010 6:19:57 PM, Nags wrote:

Random? It's so random the thread is from three months ago? Lol. Link please.

Forums ==> Poltiics ==> Page X ==> Topic ==> Page X
in the blink of an eye you finally see the light
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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5/4/2010 7:45:54 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Am I the only one who finds it ironic that this thread turned into a fight between wjm and Nags over ad hominems which will most likely end up in producing them?
Kleptin
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5/4/2010 7:47:41 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/4/2010 7:45:54 PM, Volkov wrote:
Am I the only one who finds it ironic that this thread turned into a fight between wjm and Nags over ad hominems which will most likely end up in producing them?

Ironic, yes. But it illustrates my point.
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
wjmelements
Posts: 8,206
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5/4/2010 7:47:46 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/4/2010 7:45:54 PM, Volkov wrote:
Am I the only one who finds it ironic that this thread turned into a fight between wjm and Nags over ad hominems which will most likely end up in producing them?

Indeed. Ceasing fire.
in the blink of an eye you finally see the light
belle
Posts: 4,113
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5/4/2010 7:48:08 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/4/2010 7:45:54 PM, Volkov wrote:
Am I the only one who finds it ironic that this thread turned into a fight between wjm and Nags over ad hominems which will most likely end up in producing them?

nope!
evidently i only come to ddo to avoid doing homework...
Xer
Posts: 7,776
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5/4/2010 7:50:51 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/4/2010 7:43:43 PM, wjmelements wrote:
At 1/26/2010 2:50:33 PM, Nags wrote:

Four months back? Another random click of the page? How many pages and threads have you gone through? You're really digging deep, wjm.

Another quote taking out of context as well. Notice both Ragnar and I are using caps lock, lol, smilies, and other non-serious talk. The first two quotes of the above are fine. The last quote would be not so ok if you didn't understand the context. The conversation wasn't completely serious. And Kleptin, I, and everyone else has already agreed that joking around on non-serious threads is OK. The thread "Taxing consumption, not income" has been completely serious. You have derailed it into ad hominems, insults, and appeals to ridicule.

At 5/4/2010 7:45:54 PM, Volkov wrote:
Am I the only one who finds it ironic that this thread turned into a fight between wjm and Nags over ad hominems which will most likely end up in producing them?

I don't find it ironic. An episode like this is to be expected for DDO. :)
PoeJoe
Posts: 3,822
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5/4/2010 8:30:45 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Without administrative or moderator interaction, I very much doubt such a social change can occur consciously.

I, for example, have never done those three things, and do not see myself doing so in the future. The User Formerly Known As Askbob, however, probably would, and there's nothing he could do to change my actions regarding these three points. Similarly, there is nothing I could do to change his actions regarding these three points.

If social change is going to happen on this site, it's going to be very slow. In addition, it will be unconscious, and we'll probably never notice it.
Television Rot: http://tvrot.com...
Xer
Posts: 7,776
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5/4/2010 8:33:17 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/4/2010 8:30:45 PM, PoeJoe wrote:
Without administrative or moderator interaction, I very much doubt such a social change can occur consciously.

OK, Mussolini.
Kleptin
Posts: 5,095
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5/4/2010 8:36:08 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/4/2010 8:30:45 PM, PoeJoe wrote:
Without administrative or moderator interaction, I very much doubt such a social change can occur consciously.

I, for example, have never done those three things, and do not see myself doing so in the future. The User Formerly Known As Askbob, however, probably would, and there's nothing he could do to change my actions regarding these three points. Similarly, there is nothing I could do to change his actions regarding these three points.

If social change is going to happen on this site, it's going to be very slow. In addition, it will be unconscious, and we'll probably never notice it.

This is a negative proposal. Getting people *not* to do something tends to be simpler than getting people to start doing something. But slow as it may be, I'm hoping it'll start somewhere...
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
Rezzealaux
Posts: 2,251
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5/4/2010 8:39:17 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/4/2010 8:30:45 PM, PoeJoe wrote:
If social change is going to happen on this site, it's going to be very slow. In addition, it will be unconscious, and we'll probably never notice it.

Well then that's good, right? Unconscious social change is stable :D
: If you weren't new here, you'd know not to feed me such attention. This is like an orgasm in my brain right now. *hehe, my name is in a title, hehe* (http://www.debate.org...)

Just in case I get into some BS with FREEDO again about how he's NOT a narcissist.

"The law is there to destroy evil under the constitutional government."
So... what's there to destroy evil inside of and above the constitutional government?
Kleptin
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5/4/2010 9:00:58 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/4/2010 8:39:17 PM, Rezzealaux wrote:
Unconscious social change is stable :D

^This is very true
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
mongoose
Posts: 3,500
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5/4/2010 9:19:31 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
I don't think my sig has anything out of context.
It is odd when one's capacity for compassion is measured not in what he is willing to do by his own time, effort, and property, but what he will force others to do with their own property instead.
JBlake
Posts: 4,634
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5/4/2010 10:32:23 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/4/2010 7:07:41 PM, belle wrote:
At 5/4/2010 7:03:29 PM, Kleptin wrote:
the internet is serious business

uhuh.

on a non douchey note, i find all those things funny and not at all harmful. while its certainly true that people sometimes take things too far, i see no reason we should stop screwing around in a mainly harmless way because a few outliers may get their feelings hurt.

Marry me?
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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5/4/2010 10:53:50 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
The manners and etiquette forums are thataway Kleptin:

http://www.theforumsite.com...

This is a debate site. Ridicule, so long as it doesn't obscure logic, is healthy.

Taking things out of context is not harmful unless the context they are removed from changes their meaning significantly (and it's usually hilariously obvious when a quote has to have been taken out of a context that changes its meaning significantly).

Confusion is part of the fun.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Kleptin
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5/5/2010 12:07:10 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/4/2010 10:53:50 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Ridicule, so long as it doesn't obscure logic, is healthy.

Taking things out of context is not harmful unless the context they are removed from changes their meaning significantly

These things were obviously what I was talking about.
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.