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the market and DDO

brittwaller
Posts: 331
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5/8/2010 10:39:33 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
If DDO isn't living proof that the market does NOT always provide what is wanted by the user/consumer... what is it?
Don't I take care of them all?
PoeJoe
Posts: 3,822
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5/8/2010 10:44:37 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/8/2010 10:39:33 AM, brittwaller wrote:
If DDO isn't living proof that the market does NOT always provide what is wanted by the user/consumer... what is it?

Well, DDO is providing for its market...I mean, you and I are still here, aren't we?

Yeah, we're ignored, often abused, and looked at as nobodies...but hey, the community and aesthetic more than makes up for it...at least to us, anyway. (:
Television Rot: http://tvrot.com...
PoeJoe
Posts: 3,822
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5/8/2010 10:46:50 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Besides, if DDO doesn't provide for its market, there are always different debate web sites. It's just that DDO is currently the best.

If you're an Internet entrepreneur, then by all means go ahead...create a better site and compete. (:
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brittwaller
Posts: 331
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5/8/2010 11:11:55 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Thanks for the great example: the inability to edit posts, although a slight deficiency among many.
Don't I take care of them all?
PoeJoe
Posts: 3,822
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5/8/2010 11:19:44 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/8/2010 11:11:55 AM, brittwaller wrote:
Thanks for the great example: the inability to edit posts, although a slight deficiency among many.

Well, I'd actually be against the ability to edit posts...

The point is, if this is not the best debate web site for you (after you've contemplated all factors involved), then you can always leave. But you don't leave. So, this must be the best out there.

Hopefully, as more people who use the Internet get interested in politics and debate, the market will grow larger, and more people will be interested in said market. Then, you'll get more competition, which means more diversity and better quality. (:
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PoeJoe
Posts: 3,822
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5/8/2010 11:27:29 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/8/2010 11:21:16 AM, Nags wrote:
OhEmGee, I'm so proud of you PoeJoe.

My need to defend DDO overcame my need to p1ss on capitalism. >_>
Television Rot: http://tvrot.com...
Xer
Posts: 7,776
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5/8/2010 11:28:51 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/8/2010 11:27:29 AM, PoeJoe wrote:
My need to defend DDO overcame my need to p1ss on capitalism. >_>

Haha. Maybe you should start applying this same logic to everything else. :)
brittwaller
Posts: 331
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5/8/2010 11:36:12 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/8/2010 11:19:44 AM, PoeJoe wrote:
At 5/8/2010 11:11:55 AM, brittwaller wrote:
Thanks for the great example: the inability to edit posts, although a slight deficiency among many.

Well, I'd actually be against the ability to edit posts...

The point is, if this is not the best debate web site for you (after you've contemplated all factors involved), then you can always leave. But you don't leave. So, this must be the best out there.


The point is, this is indeed the best debate site on the web. However, it could be *better*

Hopefully, as more people who use the Internet get interested in politics and debate, the market will grow larger, and more people will be interested in said market. Then, you'll get more competition, which means more diversity and better quality. (:

I disagree. Apparently, there isn't a lot of money to be made from people that just want to debate each other... meaning the market will not grow, etc.

I'm just saying this: The site could be better, and I know there are members that wouldn't mind putting the time in -- at least as much time as is put in by our current admin/mods.

I take it you would be against a user-controlled site, though.

As a sidenote, can you make a list of things you are for? Sounds like that would be the shorter list :P
Don't I take care of them all?
PoeJoe
Posts: 3,822
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5/8/2010 11:37:29 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/8/2010 11:28:51 AM, Nags wrote:
At 5/8/2010 11:27:29 AM, PoeJoe wrote:
My need to defend DDO overcame my need to p1ss on capitalism. >_>

Haha. Maybe you should start applying this same logic to everything else. :)

...not really...

Some things are just too important to let Big Corporations take over.

Education, for example. Your education effects your entire life--indeed, even how you PERCEIVE life. And given that we're ultimately all inter-dependent, and given that the stupidity of a nation will seriously harm you individually, and given that EVERYONE wants an education, and given that the demand is practically infinite (thus allowing Big Corporations to manipulate pplz), it would be absolutely stupid to completely privatize education and it would be absolutely stupid not to regulate it.

Yeah, the market can work for trivial stuff like debate websites, but not for the important stuff.
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PoeJoe
Posts: 3,822
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5/8/2010 11:41:51 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/8/2010 11:36:12 AM, brittwaller wrote:
At 5/8/2010 11:19:44 AM, PoeJoe wrote:
Hopefully, as more people who use the Internet get interested in politics and debate, the market will grow larger, and more people will be interested in said market. Then, you'll get more competition, which means more diversity and better quality. (:

I disagree. Apparently, there isn't a lot of money to be made from people that just want to debate each other... meaning the market will not grow, etc.

...so you advocate forcing WebCorp to reallocate its resources?! That would just leave shortages elsewhere--for example, in the Online Video Game industry, or in the Car Buying industry.

WebCorp knows best what is in its self-interests. Let the market handle it.

I'm just saying this: The site could be better, and I know there are members that wouldn't mind putting the time in -- at least as much time as is put in by our current admin/mods.

I take it you would be against a user-controlled site, though.

What? When did I say this?

As a sidenote, can you make a list of things you are for? Sounds like that would be the shorter list :P

- User mods
- More WebCorp interaction

The rest would follow after that.

But I wouldn't *force* WebCorp to do anything.
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Xer
Posts: 7,776
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5/8/2010 11:42:01 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/8/2010 11:37:29 AM, PoeJoe wrote:
Education, for example. Your education effects your entire life--indeed, even how you PERCEIVE life. And given that we're ultimately all inter-dependent, and given that the stupidity of a nation will seriously harm you individually, and given that EVERYONE wants an education, and given that the demand is practically infinite (thus allowing Big Corporations to manipulate pplz), it would be absolutely stupid to completely privatize education and it would be absolutely stupid not to regulate it.

Mhm. Can you name any reputable private educational institutions run by big corporations? For-profit institutions like the University of Phoenix exist, but the vast majority are not run by corporations. Like Harvard, Yale, Princeton, MIT, my high school, my friends' high school, etc.
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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5/8/2010 11:42:57 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/8/2010 11:36:12 AM, brittwaller wrote:
At 5/8/2010 11:19:44 AM, PoeJoe wrote:
At 5/8/2010 11:11:55 AM, brittwaller wrote:
Thanks for the great example: the inability to edit posts, although a slight deficiency among many.

Well, I'd actually be against the ability to edit posts...

The point is, if this is not the best debate web site for you (after you've contemplated all factors involved), then you can always leave. But you don't leave. So, this must be the best out there.


The point is, this is indeed the best debate site on the web. However, it could be *better*

Hopefully, as more people who use the Internet get interested in politics and debate, the market will grow larger, and more people will be interested in said market. Then, you'll get more competition, which means more diversity and better quality. (:

I disagree. Apparently, there isn't a lot of money to be made from people that just want to debate each other... meaning the market will not grow, etc.

I'm just saying this: The site could be better, and I know there are members that wouldn't mind putting the time in -- at least as much time as is put in by our current admin/mods.

I take it you would be against a user-controlled site, though.

As a sidenote, can you make a list of things you are for? Sounds like that would be the shorter list :P

Of course the site could be better, name one thing in the world that could not be better in some way, shape or form.

You could stay with your first arguement, that this is one of the products of a "semi-free" market (though our complaits with the site are free-market issues). The limitations that we experience are the choice of the owner, not government regulation (example, it isn't government regulation that is preventing an "edit" button). And that from all the pressures from the free market are not doing a whole lot to make it better.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
PoeJoe
Posts: 3,822
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5/8/2010 11:45:43 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/8/2010 11:42:01 AM, Nags wrote:
Mhm. Can you name any reputable private educational institutions run by big corporations?

I can't. But that's because of government intervention. (:
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Xer
Posts: 7,776
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5/8/2010 11:48:23 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/8/2010 11:45:43 AM, PoeJoe wrote:
I can't. But that's because of government intervention. (:

How so? For-profit companies run by corporations exist and the government doesn't do anything to harm their reputation. Rather, the government basically allows these corporations to exist, by supplying their students with financial aid. These for-profit educational institutions run by corporations probably wouldn't exist if it weren't for government.
PoeJoe
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5/8/2010 11:55:53 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/8/2010 11:48:23 AM, Nags wrote:
At 5/8/2010 11:45:43 AM, PoeJoe wrote:
I can't. But that's because of government intervention. (:

How so? For-profit companies run by corporations exist and the government doesn't do anything to harm their reputation.

Your school and your friend's school are regulated like crazy to make sure they are meeting quality standards, to make sure money isn't being wasted, to makes sure illegal stuffs aren't happening, et cetera...

Just imagine what would happen if it weren't for all these regulations.

Rather, the government basically allows these corporations to exist, by supplying their students with financial aid.

Thank God the government intervenes here by subsidizing education! :D
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Xer
Posts: 7,776
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5/8/2010 11:57:29 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/8/2010 11:55:53 AM, PoeJoe wrote:
Your school and your friend's school are regulated like crazy to make sure they are meeting quality standards, to make sure money isn't being wasted, to makes sure illegal stuffs aren't happening, et cetera...

Just imagine what would happen if it weren't for all these regulations.

Lol. I would choose not to go to the school if the quality wasn't what I wanted.

Thank God the government intervenes here by subsidizing education! :D

No.
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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5/8/2010 12:01:52 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/8/2010 11:57:29 AM, Nags wrote:
Lol. I would choose not to go to the school if the quality wasn't what I wanted.

I'm curious. What if none of the schools within your price range fell within the "quality" you wanted, and the only way for you to get an education you feel is "worthy" of your attention is to go broke and into debt? What would you do then?
PoeJoe
Posts: 3,822
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5/8/2010 12:02:27 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/8/2010 11:57:29 AM, Nags wrote:
At 5/8/2010 11:55:53 AM, PoeJoe wrote:
Your school and your friend's school are regulated like crazy to make sure they are meeting quality standards, to make sure money isn't being wasted, to makes sure illegal stuffs aren't happening, et cetera...

Just imagine what would happen if it weren't for all these regulations.

Lol. I would choose not to go to the school if the quality wasn't what I wanted.

Let's say you're stupid. Let's say your parents are stupid, too.

Looks like you're going to be manipulated into staying at that school through underhand tactics and convoluted contracts!

The government has to protect stupid people. It's only fair.

In fact, the only way to not be manipulated in the first place is to...guess what? Get a good education!
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PoeJoe
Posts: 3,822
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5/8/2010 12:04:18 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/8/2010 12:01:52 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 5/8/2010 11:57:29 AM, Nags wrote:
Lol. I would choose not to go to the school if the quality wasn't what I wanted.

I'm curious. What if none of the schools within your price range fell within the "quality" you wanted, and the only way for you to get an education you feel is "worthy" of your attention is to go broke and into debt? What would you do then?

Assuming Nags is smart, he'll just go into debt, because obviously his superior education will pay him back multifold. So, it's still in his self-interest to get a good education. (:
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Xer
Posts: 7,776
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5/8/2010 12:14:37 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/8/2010 12:01:52 PM, Volkov wrote:
I'm curious. What if none of the schools within your price range fell within the "quality" you wanted, and the only way for you to get an education you feel is "worthy" of your attention is to go broke and into debt? What would you do then?

Not enough information. In how many years could I repay the debt because of my education? I need to know if this decision could be in my self-interest.

Do you buy cars out of your price range?

At 5/8/2010 12:02:27 PM, PoeJoe wrote:
Let's say you're stupid. Let's say your parents are stupid, too.

Looks like you're going to be manipulated into staying at that school through underhand tactics and convoluted contracts!

The government has to protect stupid people. It's only fair.

No. Does not follow.

1. X is stupid.
2. X must be protected by the government.

So much fail.

In fact, the only way to not be manipulated in the first place is to...guess what? Get a good education!

Lol. In the United States, public schools manipulate YOU!
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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5/8/2010 12:25:33 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/8/2010 11:57:29 AM, Nags wrote:
At 5/8/2010 11:55:53 AM, PoeJoe wrote:
Your school and your friend's school are regulated like crazy to make sure they are meeting quality standards, to make sure money isn't being wasted, to makes sure illegal stuffs aren't happening, et cetera...

Just imagine what would happen if it weren't for all these regulations.

Lol. I would choose not to go to the school if the quality wasn't what I wanted.

Right, because it is the students that choose what school they go to, not their parents. And we know that the parents have total choice over any school in the nation, becuase if there isn't a good school in the local area, they can so easily pick up everything, quit their job, move across the country and settle in with a new, just-as-good job in about a week or so.

in reality, you yourself have no choice in your school (though if you have really nice parents, they may be willing to listen to you concerns and take those into account when making their final decision).
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Xer
Posts: 7,776
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5/8/2010 12:32:15 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/8/2010 12:25:33 PM, OreEle wrote:
Right, because it is the students that choose what school they go to, not their parents.

I don't see how this is relevant.

And we know that the parents have total choice over any school in the nation, becuase if there isn't a good school in the local area, they can so easily pick up everything, quit their job, move across the country and settle in with a new, just-as-good job in about a week or so.

Mhm. And if Mall X is better than Mall Y, but Person X can't reach Mall X because of geographic location, I assume you'd apply your same logic and say that the government should regulate malls and declare malls a right to everyone. Another tip- people choose where they work and live, not schools.

in reality, you yourself have no choice in your school (though if you have really nice parents, they may be willing to listen to you concerns and take those into account when making their final decision).

I don't see how this is relevant.
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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5/8/2010 12:35:44 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/8/2010 11:27:29 AM, PoeJoe wrote:
At 5/8/2010 11:21:16 AM, Nags wrote:
OhEmGee, I'm so proud of you PoeJoe.

My need to defend DDO overcame my need to p1ss on capitalism. >_>

I'm pretty sure you can say piss.
President of DDO
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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5/8/2010 12:38:51 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
There are websites where the moderation is active and provides basic forum technology. In which you can debate politics even. We aren't on them. Why? Moderators paying attention tends to result in other costs apparently. Or something else.

Paying too much attention and it starts to be a pay-to-enter website, which this market DEFINITELY wants no part of.

There are millions of websites. Your being here is proof that you view this one as the optimum use of that time. Are you a moron? possibly.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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5/8/2010 12:39:37 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/8/2010 11:45:43 AM, PoeJoe wrote:
At 5/8/2010 11:42:01 AM, Nags wrote:
Mhm. Can you name any reputable private educational institutions run by big corporations?

... They're pretty much corporations in themselves.
President of DDO
Xer
Posts: 7,776
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5/8/2010 12:43:50 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/8/2010 12:39:37 PM, theLwerd wrote:
... They're pretty much corporations in themselves.

I guess. Then just don't go the schools (supposedly run by corporations). Though, employers are probably going to look more favorably upon a "corporate run educational institution" than self-education. Make your choice.
Ore_Ele
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5/8/2010 12:44:48 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/8/2010 12:32:15 PM, Nags wrote:
At 5/8/2010 12:25:33 PM, OreEle wrote:
Right, because it is the students that choose what school they go to, not their parents.

I don't see how this is relevant.

You said you'd choose to go to a different school, the choice is not yours to make. That kinda kicks in the butt the whole "choice" argument.


And we know that the parents have total choice over any school in the nation, becuase if there isn't a good school in the local area, they can so easily pick up everything, quit their job, move across the country and settle in with a new, just-as-good job in about a week or so.

Mhm. And if Mall X is better than Mall Y, but Person X can't reach Mall X because of geographic location, I assume you'd apply your same logic and say that the government should regulate malls and declare malls a right to everyone. Another tip- people choose where they work and live, not schools.

fail. school =/= mall, so a direct comparison cannot be made, and also with the strawman, that makes fail^2.

Tip - People do not have total choice over where they live, they have a limited choice, and that it limited by their job. Sure, they can pick from this house or that house, do we want the north side or west side of town.


in reality, you yourself have no choice in your school (though if you have really nice parents, they may be willing to listen to you concerns and take those into account when making their final decision).

I don't see how this is relevant.

Maybe your school isn't as good as you think
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Xer
Posts: 7,776
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5/8/2010 12:48:40 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/8/2010 12:44:48 PM, OreEle wrote:
You said you'd choose to go to a different school, the choice is not yours to make. That kinda kicks in the butt the whole "choice" argument.

Volkov posed the question to me as if I had the choice. ...And it is completely and utterly irrelevant to the choice argument.

fail. school =/= mall, so a direct comparison cannot be made, and also with the strawman, that makes fail^2.

Same logic and principles, analogy stands. No straw man. And no refutation by you. My point stands.

Tip - People do not have total choice over where they live, they have a limited choice, and that it limited by their job. Sure, they can pick from this house or that house, do we want the north side or west side of town.

Do jobs choose their employees or vice-versa? You're making it seem like the former.

Maybe your school isn't as good as you think

I don't see how this is relevant either.