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Don't Ban Members just for Being "Toxic"

bsh1
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12/3/2014 7:45:00 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
There. I said it. Now, let the criticisms begin.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

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1harderthanyouthink
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12/3/2014 7:46:03 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/3/2014 7:45:00 PM, bsh1 wrote:
There. I said it. Now, let the criticisms begin.

When do you think members cross the line into ban-worthiness?
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

-Syd Barrett

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Mikal
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12/3/2014 7:46:27 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/3/2014 7:45:00 PM, bsh1 wrote:
There. I said it. Now, let the criticisms begin.

I'd go into detail while we should, but ill save it for the debate when that occurs
bsh1
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12/3/2014 7:47:26 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/3/2014 7:46:03 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 12/3/2014 7:45:00 PM, bsh1 wrote:
There. I said it. Now, let the criticisms begin.

When do you think members cross the line into ban-worthiness?

When they violate the TOS or the moderation policy.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

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bsh1
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12/3/2014 7:48:17 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/3/2014 7:46:27 PM, Mikal wrote:
At 12/3/2014 7:45:00 PM, bsh1 wrote:
There. I said it. Now, let the criticisms begin.

I'd go into detail while we should, but ill save it for the debate when that occurs

Yeah, I cannot do that debate after the election. If Bench is interested, I could debate him on the topic instead. But I want to debate one of the two of you on the topic.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

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1harderthanyouthink
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12/3/2014 7:48:40 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/3/2014 7:47:26 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 12/3/2014 7:46:03 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 12/3/2014 7:45:00 PM, bsh1 wrote:
There. I said it. Now, let the criticisms begin.

When do you think members cross the line into ban-worthiness?

When they violate the TOS or the moderation policy.

Yes, but I've certainly violated rules, so why am I not banned?
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

-Syd Barrett

DDO Risk King
bsh1
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12/3/2014 7:50:02 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/3/2014 7:48:40 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 12/3/2014 7:47:26 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 12/3/2014 7:46:03 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 12/3/2014 7:45:00 PM, bsh1 wrote:
There. I said it. Now, let the criticisms begin.

When do you think members cross the line into ban-worthiness?

When they violate the TOS or the moderation policy.

Yes, but I've certainly violated rules, so why am I not banned?

If it's okay to ask, what rules did you break?

Okay. So, it has to do with the seriousness of the rules you violated, whether your a first time offender or not, etc.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

Follow the DDOlympics
: http://www.debate.org...

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thett3
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12/3/2014 7:50:22 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I'm kind of torn about the whole thing.

Okay, granted, the member in question hasn't done anything necessarily "ban worthy" under the current policy since it's been implemented but that says to me that maybe we need a change in policy. Then again, I don't know.

I know we can't just ban members for being unpopular, but it's worthwhile to consider *why* members are unpopular.

This is a PERFECT case for a trial, and exactly the reason innomen started the izbo one to begin with. Really the parallels are stunning
DDO Vice President

#StandwithBossy

#UnbanTheMadman

#BetOnThett

"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
Mikal
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12/3/2014 7:50:51 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/3/2014 7:48:17 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 12/3/2014 7:46:27 PM, Mikal wrote:
At 12/3/2014 7:45:00 PM, bsh1 wrote:
There. I said it. Now, let the criticisms begin.

I'd go into detail while we should, but ill save it for the debate when that occurs

Yeah, I cannot do that debate after the election. If Bench is interested, I could debate him on the topic instead. But I want to debate one of the two of you on the topic.

I'll take you on it but there is a 0 percent chance I am going to get to do another high quality debate before the election

I just don't have the time

Helping out around my house, my job, my campaign, im in an extremely difficult debate as is with one that is already set up.

I'll be more than happy to take you whenever but I am actually going to have to have the time to sit down and write up stuff

That global warming debate sapped hours of my time and is continuing to do so. I have spent more on that debate than the one I did with roy
1harderthanyouthink
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12/3/2014 7:52:01 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/3/2014 7:50:02 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 12/3/2014 7:48:40 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 12/3/2014 7:47:26 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 12/3/2014 7:46:03 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 12/3/2014 7:45:00 PM, bsh1 wrote:
There. I said it. Now, let the criticisms begin.

When do you think members cross the line into ban-worthiness?

When they violate the TOS or the moderation policy.

Yes, but I've certainly violated rules, so why am I not banned?

If it's okay to ask, what rules did you break?

I publicly called for vwv's banning, and was warned for escalating a flame war with wrich and for a comment I made about Adam2.

Okay. So, it has to do with the seriousness of the rules you violated, whether your a first time offender or not, etc.
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

-Syd Barrett

DDO Risk King
Mikal
Posts: 11,268
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12/3/2014 7:52:44 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/3/2014 7:50:22 PM, thett3 wrote:
I'm kind of torn about the whole thing.

Okay, granted, the member in question hasn't done anything necessarily "ban worthy" under the current policy since it's been implemented but that says to me that maybe we need a change in policy. Then again, I don't know.

I know we can't just ban members for being unpopular, but it's worthwhile to consider *why* members are unpopular.

This is a PERFECT case for a trial, and exactly the reason innomen started the izbo one to begin with. Really the parallels are stunning

That is my platform to a t. JS

Granted we can agree to disagree on wrichi
bsh1
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12/3/2014 7:53:13 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/3/2014 7:50:51 PM, Mikal wrote:
At 12/3/2014 7:48:17 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 12/3/2014 7:46:27 PM, Mikal wrote:
At 12/3/2014 7:45:00 PM, bsh1 wrote:
There. I said it. Now, let the criticisms begin.

I'd go into detail while we should, but ill save it for the debate when that occurs

Yeah, I cannot do that debate after the election. If Bench is interested, I could debate him on the topic instead. But I want to debate one of the two of you on the topic.

I'll take you on it but there is a 0 percent chance I am going to get to do another high quality debate before the election

I just don't have the time

I'll ask Bench, in that case.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

Follow the DDOlympics
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Mikal
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12/3/2014 7:54:29 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/3/2014 7:53:13 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 12/3/2014 7:50:51 PM, Mikal wrote:
At 12/3/2014 7:48:17 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 12/3/2014 7:46:27 PM, Mikal wrote:
At 12/3/2014 7:45:00 PM, bsh1 wrote:
There. I said it. Now, let the criticisms begin.

I'd go into detail while we should, but ill save it for the debate when that occurs

Yeah, I cannot do that debate after the election. If Bench is interested, I could debate him on the topic instead. But I want to debate one of the two of you on the topic.

I'll take you on it but there is a 0 percent chance I am going to get to do another high quality debate before the election

I just don't have the time

I'll ask Bench, in that case.

Or make it a site debate and take bluesteel on it if he has the time. Everyone is in finals and pressed for time though
bsh1
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12/3/2014 7:58:03 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/3/2014 7:52:01 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 12/3/2014 7:50:02 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 12/3/2014 7:48:40 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 12/3/2014 7:47:26 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 12/3/2014 7:46:03 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 12/3/2014 7:45:00 PM, bsh1 wrote:
There. I said it. Now, let the criticisms begin.

When do you think members cross the line into ban-worthiness?

When they violate the TOS or the moderation policy.

Yes, but I've certainly violated rules, so why am I not banned?

If it's okay to ask, what rules did you break?

I publicly called for vwv's banning, and was warned for escalating a flame war with wrich and for a comment I made about Adam2.

Okay, so you've received warnings. I've received warnings too. But, I wouldn't say any of those things are banworthy.

Think of it like this. The TOS and moderation policy are DDO's laws. DDO has a variety of penalties in place that it can issue: restraining orders, warnings, temp bans, and bans. These are analogous to real-life penalties for breaking the law, such as fines, jail time, and the death penalty.

You don't start out, in most cases, with the death penalty. You normally start with restraining orders or fines, and gradually work your way up. What I am trying to say though is that if someone is going to be officially sanctioned by DDO, they need to have actually broken the law, not just been "toxic." I mean, I think Dick Cheney is "toxic," but I am not going to fine him, jail him, or kill him for it.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

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bsh1
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12/3/2014 7:59:13 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/3/2014 7:54:29 PM, Mikal wrote:

You object to the current moderation policy because it is too strict, right?
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

Follow the DDOlympics
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Mikal
Posts: 11,268
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12/3/2014 8:01:11 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/3/2014 7:59:13 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 12/3/2014 7:54:29 PM, Mikal wrote:

You object to the current moderation policy because it is too strict, right?

Not to strict, I think the lines should be drawn differently. So in a sense yes, I think instead of focusing on members that call someone an idiot or dofus once in a while you should catch the people that are actually breaking the site apart. People that are posting and spamming polls, comments, instigating countless flame wars, harassing people to the point they want to commit suicide. That's the people you should focus on, not the people that make the brush of the shoulder comments.
Mikal
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12/3/2014 8:01:51 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/3/2014 7:59:13 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 12/3/2014 7:54:29 PM, Mikal wrote:

You object to the current moderation policy because it is too strict, right?

ps : I may not get to respond to anything after that for a tad bit, going in to watch a movie with the family. If i dont get it tonight, ill get it tomorrow or in the questions
bsh1
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12/3/2014 8:02:30 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/3/2014 7:50:22 PM, thett3 wrote:
I'm kind of torn about the whole thing.

Okay, granted, the member in question hasn't done anything necessarily "ban worthy" under the current policy since it's been implemented but that says to me that maybe we need a change in policy. Then again, I don't know.

I know we can't just ban members for being unpopular, but it's worthwhile to consider *why* members are unpopular.

This is a PERFECT case for a trial, and exactly the reason innomen started the izbo one to begin with. Really the parallels are stunning

Even in the Izbo case, there were clear violations of what we know to be the TOS. Let's say member X is toxic--they troll and stir up controversy, but they don't actually breach the TOS. How can we punish them. The TOS is there to provide a clear set of rules so that people know where they stand in relation to the moderation on the site. Making things even more subjective only makes it easier to abuse power. You would undermine the very reason for having a TOS, and create, potentially, a slipperly slope that would censure members merely for being disliked. That goes to the heart of protecting free speech on DDO.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

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bsh1
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12/3/2014 8:05:03 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/3/2014 8:01:11 PM, Mikal wrote:
At 12/3/2014 7:59:13 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 12/3/2014 7:54:29 PM, Mikal wrote:

You object to the current moderation policy because it is too strict, right?

Not to strict, I think the lines should be drawn differently. So in a sense yes, I think instead of focusing on members that call someone an idiot or dofus once in a while you should catch the people that are actually breaking the site apart. People that are posting and spamming polls, comments, instigating countless flame wars, harassing people to the point they want to commit suicide. That's the people you should focus on, not the people that make the brush of the shoulder comments.

I have never seen moderation not act when any of those types of events occurred. Maybe they could have acted faster, but changing the rules isn't going to achieve that objective. Max will mod how he mods--and he's done a good job at modding. Changing the rules won't change the way he goes about his job, and so, to actually do what you're proposing, you would have to replace Max, which is a step too far (though, frankly, the whole idea of banning toxic members is a step too far).
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

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thett3
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12/3/2014 8:06:47 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/3/2014 8:02:30 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 12/3/2014 7:50:22 PM, thett3 wrote:
I'm kind of torn about the whole thing.

Okay, granted, the member in question hasn't done anything necessarily "ban worthy" under the current policy since it's been implemented but that says to me that maybe we need a change in policy. Then again, I don't know.

I know we can't just ban members for being unpopular, but it's worthwhile to consider *why* members are unpopular.

This is a PERFECT case for a trial, and exactly the reason innomen started the izbo one to begin with. Really the parallels are stunning

Even in the Izbo case, there were clear violations of what we know to be the TOS. Let's say member X is toxic--they troll and stir up controversy, but they don't actually breach the TOS. How can we punish them. The TOS is there to provide a clear set of rules so that people know where they stand in relation to the moderation on the site. Making things even more subjective only makes it easier to abuse power. You would undermine the very reason for having a TOS, and create, potentially, a slipperly slope that would censure members merely for being disliked. That goes to the heart of protecting free speech on DDO.

Honestly, I think you're putting way too much stock in the TOS which maybe 1% of the site has ever read. There are community standards that evolve and change over time, and those are much more relevant than the TOS. They're probably about the same level of toxicity, given the standards of conduct on the site when Izbo was around which were obviously less stringent because there wasn't even a moderator. Moreover Wrich *has* violated the TOS on tons of occasions, so it would be incredibly easy to find a justification there--but doing so would be hypocritical, because we've all broken it at some point. At the end of the day, he's a really really toxic member who brings down the quality of the site. The only question is if that justifies banning and I can see both sides.

There is a potential slippery slope. That's why I think if there's any action to be taken it should be after a trial.

Seriously, this is a perfect case to go to trial.
DDO Vice President

#StandwithBossy

#UnbanTheMadman

#BetOnThett

"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
dtaylor971
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12/3/2014 8:10:59 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/3/2014 7:45:00 PM, bsh1 wrote:
There. I said it. Now, let the criticisms begin.

"Let the criticisms begin." Well spoken, counterpart.
"I don't know why gays want to marry, I have spent the last 25 years wishing I wasn't allowed to." -Sadolite
bsh1
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12/3/2014 8:12:20 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/3/2014 8:06:47 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 12/3/2014 8:02:30 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 12/3/2014 7:50:22 PM, thett3 wrote:
I'm kind of torn about the whole thing.

Okay, granted, the member in question hasn't done anything necessarily "ban worthy" under the current policy since it's been implemented but that says to me that maybe we need a change in policy. Then again, I don't know.

I know we can't just ban members for being unpopular, but it's worthwhile to consider *why* members are unpopular.

This is a PERFECT case for a trial, and exactly the reason innomen started the izbo one to begin with. Really the parallels are stunning

Even in the Izbo case, there were clear violations of what we know to be the TOS. Let's say member X is toxic--they troll and stir up controversy, but they don't actually breach the TOS. How can we punish them. The TOS is there to provide a clear set of rules so that people know where they stand in relation to the moderation on the site. Making things even more subjective only makes it easier to abuse power. You would undermine the very reason for having a TOS, and create, potentially, a slipperly slope that would censure members merely for being disliked. That goes to the heart of protecting free speech on DDO.

Honestly, I think you're putting way too much stock in the TOS which maybe 1% of the site has ever read.

At least there is some spelled out standard that can be easily referenced, whereas what is "toxic" is far to nebulous and gives too much discretionary power, IMO.

Moreover Wrich *has* violated the TOS on tons of occasions, so it would be incredibly easy to find a justification there--but doing so would be hypocritical, because we've all broken it at some point.

Then punish him for breaking the TOS, not for being toxic. And, frankly, it's not hypocritical, because I am fairly confident that wrich has committed more serious violations than most DDO members.

Seriously, this is a perfect case to go to trial.

Maybe, but frankly I am genuinely concerned that anyone put to trial would be condemned before it began.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

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bsh1
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12/3/2014 8:13:41 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/3/2014 8:10:59 PM, dtaylor971 wrote:
At 12/3/2014 7:45:00 PM, bsh1 wrote:
There. I said it. Now, let the criticisms begin.

"Let the criticisms begin." Well spoken, counterpart.

Ummm...thanks.
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"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

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bsh1
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12/3/2014 8:14:39 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
What I find really confusing is that, on the one hand, people dislike the new site moderation policy because it stifles free speech and so on, but then they want to make it easier to ban people for being "toxic." That strikes me as contradictory.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

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thett3
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12/3/2014 8:16:13 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/3/2014 8:12:20 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 12/3/2014 8:06:47 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 12/3/2014 8:02:30 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 12/3/2014 7:50:22 PM, thett3 wrote:
I'm kind of torn about the whole thing.

Okay, granted, the member in question hasn't done anything necessarily "ban worthy" under the current policy since it's been implemented but that says to me that maybe we need a change in policy. Then again, I don't know.

I know we can't just ban members for being unpopular, but it's worthwhile to consider *why* members are unpopular.

This is a PERFECT case for a trial, and exactly the reason innomen started the izbo one to begin with. Really the parallels are stunning

Even in the Izbo case, there were clear violations of what we know to be the TOS. Let's say member X is toxic--they troll and stir up controversy, but they don't actually breach the TOS. How can we punish them. The TOS is there to provide a clear set of rules so that people know where they stand in relation to the moderation on the site. Making things even more subjective only makes it easier to abuse power. You would undermine the very reason for having a TOS, and create, potentially, a slipperly slope that would censure members merely for being disliked. That goes to the heart of protecting free speech on DDO.

Honestly, I think you're putting way too much stock in the TOS which maybe 1% of the site has ever read.

At least there is some spelled out standard that can be easily referenced, whereas what is "toxic" is far to nebulous and gives too much discretionary power, IMO.

Moreover Wrich *has* violated the TOS on tons of occasions, so it would be incredibly easy to find a justification there--but doing so would be hypocritical, because we've all broken it at some point.

Then punish him for breaking the TOS, not for being toxic. And, frankly, it's not hypocritical, because I am fairly confident that wrich has committed more serious violations than most DDO members.

Seriously, this is a perfect case to go to trial.

Maybe, but frankly I am genuinely concerned that anyone put to trial would be condemned before it began.

In the Izbo trial, anyone could vote but the only votes that mattered were the votes of a selected jury. There are enough people neutral about him to cobble together a jury I imagine--and if there aren't, what does that say about the member?
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#StandwithBossy

#UnbanTheMadman

#BetOnThett

"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
bsh1
Posts: 27,503
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12/3/2014 8:18:04 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/3/2014 8:16:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 12/3/2014 8:12:20 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 12/3/2014 8:06:47 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 12/3/2014 8:02:30 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 12/3/2014 7:50:22 PM, thett3 wrote:
I'm kind of torn about the whole thing.

Okay, granted, the member in question hasn't done anything necessarily "ban worthy" under the current policy since it's been implemented but that says to me that maybe we need a change in policy. Then again, I don't know.

I know we can't just ban members for being unpopular, but it's worthwhile to consider *why* members are unpopular.

This is a PERFECT case for a trial, and exactly the reason innomen started the izbo one to begin with. Really the parallels are stunning

Even in the Izbo case, there were clear violations of what we know to be the TOS. Let's say member X is toxic--they troll and stir up controversy, but they don't actually breach the TOS. How can we punish them. The TOS is there to provide a clear set of rules so that people know where they stand in relation to the moderation on the site. Making things even more subjective only makes it easier to abuse power. You would undermine the very reason for having a TOS, and create, potentially, a slipperly slope that would censure members merely for being disliked. That goes to the heart of protecting free speech on DDO.

Honestly, I think you're putting way too much stock in the TOS which maybe 1% of the site has ever read.

At least there is some spelled out standard that can be easily referenced, whereas what is "toxic" is far to nebulous and gives too much discretionary power, IMO.

Moreover Wrich *has* violated the TOS on tons of occasions, so it would be incredibly easy to find a justification there--but doing so would be hypocritical, because we've all broken it at some point.

Then punish him for breaking the TOS, not for being toxic. And, frankly, it's not hypocritical, because I am fairly confident that wrich has committed more serious violations than most DDO members.

Seriously, this is a perfect case to go to trial.

Maybe, but frankly I am genuinely concerned that anyone put to trial would be condemned before it began.

In the Izbo trial, anyone could vote but the only votes that mattered were the votes of a selected jury. There are enough people neutral about him to cobble together a jury I imagine--and if there aren't, what does that say about the member?

It says nothing about the member, in my opinion. And I am sure you could maybe cobble together a neutral jury, but I don't think DDO would accept a verdict it didn't want, esp. if the member was truly as reviled as wrich.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

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thett3
Posts: 14,334
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12/3/2014 8:22:54 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/3/2014 8:18:04 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 12/3/2014 8:16:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 12/3/2014 8:12:20 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 12/3/2014 8:06:47 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 12/3/2014 8:02:30 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 12/3/2014 7:50:22 PM, thett3 wrote:
I'm kind of torn about the whole thing.

Okay, granted, the member in question hasn't done anything necessarily "ban worthy" under the current policy since it's been implemented but that says to me that maybe we need a change in policy. Then again, I don't know.

I know we can't just ban members for being unpopular, but it's worthwhile to consider *why* members are unpopular.

This is a PERFECT case for a trial, and exactly the reason innomen started the izbo one to begin with. Really the parallels are stunning

Even in the Izbo case, there were clear violations of what we know to be the TOS. Let's say member X is toxic--they troll and stir up controversy, but they don't actually breach the TOS. How can we punish them. The TOS is there to provide a clear set of rules so that people know where they stand in relation to the moderation on the site. Making things even more subjective only makes it easier to abuse power. You would undermine the very reason for having a TOS, and create, potentially, a slipperly slope that would censure members merely for being disliked. That goes to the heart of protecting free speech on DDO.

Honestly, I think you're putting way too much stock in the TOS which maybe 1% of the site has ever read.

At least there is some spelled out standard that can be easily referenced, whereas what is "toxic" is far to nebulous and gives too much discretionary power, IMO.

Moreover Wrich *has* violated the TOS on tons of occasions, so it would be incredibly easy to find a justification there--but doing so would be hypocritical, because we've all broken it at some point.

Then punish him for breaking the TOS, not for being toxic. And, frankly, it's not hypocritical, because I am fairly confident that wrich has committed more serious violations than most DDO members.

Seriously, this is a perfect case to go to trial.

Maybe, but frankly I am genuinely concerned that anyone put to trial would be condemned before it began.

In the Izbo trial, anyone could vote but the only votes that mattered were the votes of a selected jury. There are enough people neutral about him to cobble together a jury I imagine--and if there aren't, what does that say about the member?

It says nothing about the member, in my opinion. And I am sure you could maybe cobble together a neutral jury, but I don't think DDO would accept a verdict it didn't want, esp. if the member was truly as reviled as wrich.

What could they do other than accept it?

The reason innomen decided to put Izbo on trial was, as far as I understood it, for two reasons: The first was he wanted to air out all of the evidence in public, and give Izbo the opportunity to rebut it. This way, the community gets to see everything from both sides because nothing is ever truly completely one sided--even wrich's behavior. The second was to establish a precedent and see what the standards for conduct should actually be, and the best way to do that was to allow the community to have somewhat of a say. Believe it or not, there was serious opposition to banning izbo, me included. I was actually on his defense team, but he rejected us, stubborn and arrogant to the last.
DDO Vice President

#StandwithBossy

#UnbanTheMadman

#BetOnThett

"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
bsh1
Posts: 27,503
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12/3/2014 8:26:16 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/3/2014 8:22:54 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 12/3/2014 8:18:04 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 12/3/2014 8:16:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 12/3/2014 8:12:20 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 12/3/2014 8:06:47 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 12/3/2014 8:02:30 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 12/3/2014 7:50:22 PM, thett3 wrote:
I'm kind of torn about the whole thing.

Okay, granted, the member in question hasn't done anything necessarily "ban worthy" under the current policy since it's been implemented but that says to me that maybe we need a change in policy. Then again, I don't know.

I know we can't just ban members for being unpopular, but it's worthwhile to consider *why* members are unpopular.

This is a PERFECT case for a trial, and exactly the reason innomen started the izbo one to begin with. Really the parallels are stunning

Even in the Izbo case, there were clear violations of what we know to be the TOS. Let's say member X is toxic--they troll and stir up controversy, but they don't actually breach the TOS. How can we punish them. The TOS is there to provide a clear set of rules so that people know where they stand in relation to the moderation on the site. Making things even more subjective only makes it easier to abuse power. You would undermine the very reason for having a TOS, and create, potentially, a slipperly slope that would censure members merely for being disliked. That goes to the heart of protecting free speech on DDO.

Honestly, I think you're putting way too much stock in the TOS which maybe 1% of the site has ever read.

At least there is some spelled out standard that can be easily referenced, whereas what is "toxic" is far to nebulous and gives too much discretionary power, IMO.

Moreover Wrich *has* violated the TOS on tons of occasions, so it would be incredibly easy to find a justification there--but doing so would be hypocritical, because we've all broken it at some point.

Then punish him for breaking the TOS, not for being toxic. And, frankly, it's not hypocritical, because I am fairly confident that wrich has committed more serious violations than most DDO members.

Seriously, this is a perfect case to go to trial.

Maybe, but frankly I am genuinely concerned that anyone put to trial would be condemned before it began.

In the Izbo trial, anyone could vote but the only votes that mattered were the votes of a selected jury. There are enough people neutral about him to cobble together a jury I imagine--and if there aren't, what does that say about the member?

It says nothing about the member, in my opinion. And I am sure you could maybe cobble together a neutral jury, but I don't think DDO would accept a verdict it didn't want, esp. if the member was truly as reviled as wrich.

What could they do other than accept it?

A trial is meant to provide finality. If the verdict is not what DDO wants, then people will complain, they will continue to label the user as toxic, etc., and there is no finality.

The reason innomen decided to put Izbo on trial was...

At what point should a member stand trial?
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

Follow the DDOlympics
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bsh1
Posts: 27,503
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12/3/2014 8:26:43 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/3/2014 8:13:25 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
Your leniency is your weakness.

And your faith in your friends is yours.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

Follow the DDOlympics
: http://www.debate.org...

Open Debate Topics Project: http://www.debate.org...