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**Official Conversation: Trials**

bladerunner060
Posts: 7,126
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12/6/2014 11:14:11 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I said I would make a post about trials tonight. I do what I say. That said: My dogs apparently decided "Hey, you were gone a few hours, so let's poop and pee on everything, oh, and dig out the trash. And while we're at it, let's just...tear EVERYTHING APART". Which is actually somewhat unlike them. Usually they just use poop to indicate their displeasure--they don't feel the need to eat everything and then throw it up.

But all of that is neither here nor there.

I said I make a post about trials. This is that post.

BOTH administrations agree that this is a topic that's become important to the community, so both administrations should be taking notice of this thread (even if it's up awful late). So though I'm president, I hope that even if the next administration isn't mine, that they'll find this thread useful.

The first thing this discussion should have, before the mechanics question (which I have a several page document about and, I am CERTAIN, others do as well), is: WHAT should go to trial?

Toxicity has been mentioned. I understand what is often meant by that.

But at the same time, when charges are levied, they should be clear. "Toxicity" has been mighty vague. So rather than any single-word update, I would like folks to weigh in with a concise definition of what the "crime" they'd like to see be "tried" be.

That's what I'd like to start with. I have my own ideas, but I don't want to color the initial response.

I do NOT want any specific members mentioned, please. I understand that there are specific members that people think of when they think of trials. But a system should not be set up solely for single users.

So, to repeat repetitively:

You (indefinite pronoun you) what a trial. What is the charge?
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bladerunner060
Posts: 7,126
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12/7/2014 3:56:44 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/6/2014 11:14:11 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
I said I would make a post about trials tonight. I do what I say. That said: My dogs apparently decided "Hey, you were gone a few hours, so let's poop and pee on everything, oh, and dig out the trash. And while we're at it, let's just...tear EVERYTHING APART". Which is actually somewhat unlike them. Usually they just use poop to indicate their displeasure--they don't feel the need to eat everything and then throw it up.

But all of that is neither here nor there.

I said I make a post about trials. This is that post.

BOTH administrations agree that this is a topic that's become important to the community, so both administrations should be taking notice of this thread (even if it's up awful late). So though I'm president, I hope that even if the next administration isn't mine, that they'll find this thread useful.

The first thing this discussion should have, before the mechanics question (which I have a several page document about and, I am CERTAIN, others do as well), is: WHAT should go to trial?

Toxicity has been mentioned. I understand what is often meant by that.

But at the same time, when charges are levied, they should be clear. "Toxicity" has been mighty vague. So rather than any single-word update, I would like folks to weigh in with a concise definition of what the "crime" they'd like to see be "tried" be.

That's what I'd like to start with. I have my own ideas, but I don't want to color the initial response.

I do NOT want any specific members mentioned, please. I understand that there are specific members that people think of when they think of trials. But a system should not be set up solely for single users.

So, to repeat repetitively:

You (indefinite pronoun you) what a trial. What is the charge?

Bumped to increase participation...
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bladerunner060
Posts: 7,126
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12/7/2014 11:48:52 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
bumped again because I know that the campaigns have been occupying people's attention, but I think this is a valuable discussion to have.
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Mikal
Posts: 11,268
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12/7/2014 11:59:36 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/6/2014 11:14:11 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
I said I would make a post about trials tonight. I do what I say. That said: My dogs apparently decided "Hey, you were gone a few hours, so let's poop and pee on everything, oh, and dig out the trash. And while we're at it, let's just...tear EVERYTHING APART". Which is actually somewhat unlike them. Usually they just use poop to indicate their displeasure--they don't feel the need to eat everything and then throw it up.

But all of that is neither here nor there.

I said I make a post about trials. This is that post.

BOTH administrations agree that this is a topic that's become important to the community, so both administrations should be taking notice of this thread (even if it's up awful late). So though I'm president, I hope that even if the next administration isn't mine, that they'll find this thread useful.

The first thing this discussion should have, before the mechanics question (which I have a several page document about and, I am CERTAIN, others do as well), is: WHAT should go to trial?

Toxicity has been mentioned. I understand what is often meant by that.

But at the same time, when charges are levied, they should be clear. "Toxicity" has been mighty vague. So rather than any single-word update, I would like folks to weigh in with a concise definition of what the "crime" they'd like to see be "tried" be.

That's what I'd like to start with. I have my own ideas, but I don't want to color the initial response.

I do NOT want any specific members mentioned, please. I understand that there are specific members that people think of when they think of trials. But a system should not be set up solely for single users.

So, to repeat repetitively:

You (indefinite pronoun you) what a trial. What is the charge?

I just got home and just read this. I will respond back to this tomorrow as well. Which im sure your ok with

Granted me and bluesteel edited and he may be afk for a few days because of finals but will be back mid week or so
mortsdor
Posts: 1,181
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12/8/2014 12:13:27 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
I think if the system's designed properly, that could be left wholly up to the judge's discretion... (whether or not they'll accept a presented 'case' )

That said,
I'd say it should be limited to repeated, and uncalled for, harassment or repeatedly responding to those genuinely relating their opinions with uncalled for hostility.

Straight-up spammers can just be Mod-banned.

- - -

MY proposal:

There should be 6 judges who are voted in
These judges will be open to taking complaints, and considering the Detailed complaints of Accusers.
(people should only go to a judge with a Detailed and Evidenced complaint... The judge will not Make your case for you, but will consider what evidence you provide)

If one judge you approach thinks the complaint has potential merit, they bring it before the others.
(If any judge is particularly close to an aggrieved/accused party, they should recuse themselves and ask the mod to find a temporary replacement for the case.)

The judges consider the complaint/evidence of the aggrieved and vote as to whether the aggrieved has provided evidence that a violation occurred that is worthy of being addressed in a trial.
If the judges Unanimously agree that the evidence/case presented by the Accuser demands some kind of explanation/response then the trial ensues.

Trial is a thread in which the accuser's case is posted, the Judges weigh in on what they think is relevant and needs addressing. Then the defendant gets to post his defense.

The judges again weigh in... Then the accuser responds Once more, and then the defendant has the chance to do so again.

At this point the debate becomes open to public comment.

Then the judges vote, and only upon Unanimous decision can a guilty verdict be levied.

If they find someone guilty there should be a few different options for punishments...
I'd say that 4/6 of the judges would have to come to agreement as to the punishment levied.
I'd say punishments should be restricted to bannings ('restraining orders' are silly IMO)
a) Ban of a Week
b) Ban of a Month
c) Ban of a Month & Lobby Airmax for a Permanent Ban

- - -

To start it all off, if such a system were to be approved, I'd suggest
We create a thread where people propose and vote on potential judges..

Proposed Qualifications
to be a Voter or to be a Judge one must Both:
1. have been a member for a year or more
2. have at least 2,000 Posts... without being a spammer (subject to Airmaxx's discretion)..

This is not so much to discount new people... but to ensure that it's people who Kind of care about the site a little bit... and are well enough acquainted with it.

- - -

As to how the voting takes place, I'd suggest qualified voters should be able to pick 6 judges they'd like to see... Filling out a ballot with 6 slots.

Those members found to be Most submitted, Pending the approval of the mod, are the judges.. I'd say the mod should have explicit veto power.. since his respecting their decisions is the only way they're going to have any say anyhow.
bladerunner060
Posts: 7,126
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12/8/2014 12:27:58 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/8/2014 12:13:27 AM, mortsdor wrote:

I'd say it should be limited to repeated, and uncalled for, harassment or repeatedly responding to those genuinely relating their opinions with uncalled for hostility.

I'd like to keep this to one step at a time if possible. If everybody posts their entire proposal, we're going to have walls of neverending text as people quibble about each element of everybody's idea. If we do each section one bit at a time, we are more likely to have a coherent and readable discussion.
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mortsdor
Posts: 1,181
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12/8/2014 7:51:45 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/8/2014 12:27:58 AM, bladerunner060 wrote:
I'd like to keep this to one step at a time if possible. If everybody posts their entire proposal, we're going to have walls of neverending text as people quibble about each element of everybody's idea. If we do each section one bit at a time, we are more likely to have a coherent and readable discussion.

A plan is more than the sum of it's parts.

Considered Individually it may be difficult to see the importance a component may play in the system... Thus it's best to judge each component of a person's plan in the context in which it would be implemented.

- - -

also though, there's not been much response suggestive that people at large are going to pick up this discussion without prodding.

Your Campaign, and Mikal's campaign Posting your detailed, full Proposals would encourage discussion on this matter.

And start off some useful conversation.
mortsdor
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12/8/2014 9:11:07 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/8/2014 7:51:45 AM, mortsdor wrote:
Considered Individually it may be difficult to see the importance a component may play in the system... Thus it's best to judge each component of a person's plan in the context in which it would be implemented.

I think my answer that "That could be left Wholly up to the Judge's discretion" is only really comprehensible at all in the context of the system I have in mind.
I wouldn't support it as a general statement.

is Utterly Dependent upon the nature of those judges, how many there are, how they were chosen, and the manner (unanimity) in which those judges should be allowed to call a trial...

and If I'm going to explain WHY I'd say that, I'd basically have to address my conception of the kind of system I'd support At Large... So I might as well just post What I'd support.

I think it will be more straightforward and we'll actually get somewhere quicker if people who have substantial ideas just relate their ideas, allowing others to see the total context of what they'd suggest, and get a feel for the totality of each plan before they begin arguing over specifics.
bladerunner060
Posts: 7,126
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12/8/2014 10:46:47 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/8/2014 9:11:07 AM, mortsdor wrote:

Discussing the mechanism of the trial without actually knowing what the "charge" is seems like putting the cart before the horse, don't you think?
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mortsdor
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12/8/2014 10:55:01 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/8/2014 10:46:47 AM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 12/8/2014 9:11:07 AM, mortsdor wrote:
Discussing the mechanism of the trial without actually knowing what the "charge" is seems like putting the cart before the horse, don't you think?

So long as there are multiple judges picked in a good manner (see my suggestions as to qualifications) and decisions are balanced between several independent judges who need to decide unanimously..

I think we can trust the judges to decide what complaints are worthy of addressing.

There may be things that pop up that are worth addressing that we don't consider beforehand.

Similar situation with the Moderation generally, Airmaxx addresses things as they come... There may be a TOS and general provisions for what is not allowed, but it's best that he takes each situation as they come, independently.

If we expand moderation with a trial system that is appropriately balanced, and well constructed, I think we can allow it to exercise discretion in a manner similar to that which Airmaxx already brings to things.
imabench
Posts: 21,204
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12/8/2014 10:57:55 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/8/2014 10:46:47 AM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 12/8/2014 9:11:07 AM, mortsdor wrote:

Discussing the mechanism of the trial without actually knowing what the "charge" is seems like putting the cart before the horse, don't you think?

I would start to watch the Kentucky Derby if they started doing that though :P
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Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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12/8/2014 1:50:20 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I'm against the a trial system. An open discussion where the final decision is made by the moderator, sure. But not a trial system that is made by a popularity vote.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
mortsdor
Posts: 1,181
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12/8/2014 2:01:19 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/8/2014 1:50:20 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
I'm against the a trial system. An open discussion where the final decision is made by the moderator, sure. But not a trial system that is made by a popularity vote.

You don't think a panel of long-term regular users could possibly help deal with moderation?

It would seem that Airmaxx is a bit overwhelmed with the task, since he clearly supports some kind of expanded role for users combating the problem.

I would propose a list of judges that goes something like this

1. RoyLatham
2. PCP
3. Yourself you dirty fascist
4. Bluesteel
5. Bladerunner I guess
6. someone else.

Granted, such a thing would require people to step up and help out.. But I don't think it'd be too much... The burden would be spread about, and Most cases would end up being filtered out before going to trial and involving everyone.

As I'd suggested, I'd think it good if the accuser had to present a case to a single judge first, and if that judge thinks it's good, then he presents it to all the judges to decide if it goes to a trial (which would require Unanimity).

Basically it should allow some means of giving answers to the complainers without Airmaxx having to handle everything...
AND those people who have legitimate complaints would have a greater chance of them being Openly addressed.
Ore_Ele
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12/8/2014 2:32:24 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/8/2014 2:01:19 PM, mortsdor wrote:
At 12/8/2014 1:50:20 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
I'm against the a trial system. An open discussion where the final decision is made by the moderator, sure. But not a trial system that is made by a popularity vote.

You don't think a panel of long-term regular users could possibly help deal with moderation?

It would seem that Airmaxx is a bit overwhelmed with the task, since he clearly supports some kind of expanded role for users combating the problem.


I would propose a list of judges that goes something like this

1. RoyLatham
2. PCP
3. Yourself you dirty fascist
4. Bluesteel
5. Bladerunner I guess
6. someone else.


Granted, such a thing would require people to step up and help out.. But I don't think it'd be too much... The burden would be spread about, and Most cases would end up being filtered out before going to trial and involving everyone.

As I'd suggested, I'd think it good if the accuser had to present a case to a single judge first, and if that judge thinks it's good, then he presents it to all the judges to decide if it goes to a trial (which would require Unanimity).

Basically it should allow some means of giving answers to the complainers without Airmaxx having to handle everything...
AND those people who have legitimate complaints would have a greater chance of them being Openly addressed.

Yes, I support that, but that isn't a trial system, that is just expanded moderation, which I strongly support.
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mortsdor
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12/8/2014 2:36:51 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/8/2014 2:32:24 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
Yes, I support that, but that isn't a trial system, that is just expanded moderation, which I strongly support.

If you look at my OP in this thread you'll see that I propose a trial system based upon having 6 judges that are long-term respected users.

They would hear both sides, and judge.
that's kind of what a trial is, no?

I definitely also Would Not support a trial system based on a simple popular vote.

I did suggest that the judges get voted for, but I tried to set controlling limits on just who can vote, and who they can vote for.
thehumanistpreacher
Posts: 252
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12/12/2014 6:14:00 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/8/2014 10:46:47 AM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 12/8/2014 9:11:07 AM, mortsdor wrote:

Discussing the mechanism of the trial without actually knowing what the "charge" is seems like putting the cart before the horse, don't you think?

What is the proposed definition of a 'Toxic Member'?

It would be unfortunate if someone was being branded a 'Toxic Member' for having strong, passionate opinions or having a general big personality.

It would also be unfortunate if a court was cherry picking an unfortunate members history and putting him on trial for speaking on an isolated occasion out of turn.

I propose four standard rules in whatever form.

A statute of limitation so someone cannot be punished for something that happened years ago for example so the timing would have to be recent and within reason.

No one can have a vested interest against the member such as having negative past encounters to guarantee neutrality, impartiality and fairness.

No one can be tried for the same crime twice so which means the first ruling is final for consistency in the system.

One should have the right to appeal if they believe they have been treated unfairly by the process or the judgement that was carried out.