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Hypocrisy

bsh1
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12/7/2014 1:12:26 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
It is absolutely hypocritical for Mikal's campaign (through Bluesteel) to critique Mirza for past transgressions, when Mikal's VP is Bench. Isn't Mikal's campaign insisting that Bench can improve and change? Why is the same untrue of Mirza...? This is just ridiculous.

Unlike Bench, Mirza has shown himself capable of acting decorously and responsibly when dealing with conflicts. As a forum ambassador, he helped to reduce conflicts and resolve them diplomatically. As for Bench, his ability to do the same is an open question.

Personally, whatever your opinion of Bench or Mirza, I think you should at least grant that they have an equal chance of improvement, though I think Mirza has demonstrated more concrete progress. It is just hypocritical to make the attacks Bluesteel is making.
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imabench
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12/7/2014 1:14:49 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Wait, Mirza has a history of past controversial transgressions?
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Mirza
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12/7/2014 1:24:06 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
I have had my moments of flame wars, many years ago. I have, most notably, insulted some members in a way that violates the rules, and this, too I regret. I never claimed to be perfect. There is also the fact that I caused controversy when I ruined the result of bluesteel's debate. Expressions of regret are hard to display by mere digital words; but I always regret every part of my past here that I find to be of a vile nature; at least, vile for my standards. I have changed, but not in a sense that I am completely different; I have matured, and let go of nonsensical acts like insulting people severely [which was something I did at a later point of my history here, not early]. That's it.

Perhaps it sounds too bad, or just something innumerable members have done over time here; one can see it as one wishes to. I am disappointed, however, to have been dragged into something I thought was years past me. All for a few small mistakes that brought no real harm and could be corrected.
bsh1
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12/7/2014 1:26:09 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/7/2014 1:24:06 AM, Mirza wrote:
I have had my moments of flame wars, many years ago. I have, most notably, insulted some members in a way that violates the rules, and this, too I regret. I never claimed to be perfect.

Everyone has made mistakes in the past.

There is also the fact that I caused controversy when I ruined the result of bluesteel's debate. Expressions of regret are hard to display by mere digital words; but I always regret every part of my past here that I find to be of a vile nature; at least, vile for my standards. I have changed, but not in a sense that I am completely different; I have matured, and let go of nonsensical acts like insulting people severely [which was something I did at a later point of my history here, not early]. That's it.

I think you have matured--you're role in the religion forum certainly attests to that. When I first had a lengthy talk with you, you struck me as a very mature, conscientious, and thoughtful individual.
Live Long and Prosper

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bluesteel
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12/7/2014 1:27:31 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/7/2014 1:12:26 AM, bsh1 wrote:
It is absolutely hypocritical for Mikal's campaign (through Bluesteel) to critique Mirza for past transgressions, when Mikal's VP is Bench. Isn't Mikal's campaign insisting that Bench can improve and change? Why is the same untrue of Mirza...? This is just ridiculous.

Unlike Bench, Mirza has shown himself capable of acting decorously and responsibly when dealing with conflicts. As a forum ambassador, he helped to reduce conflicts and resolve them diplomatically. As for Bench, his ability to do the same is an open question.

Personally, whatever your opinion of Bench or Mirza, I think you should at least grant that they have an equal chance of improvement, though I think Mirza has demonstrated more concrete progress. It is just hypocritical to make the attacks Bluesteel is making.

If anything, your post proves why it was necessary for me to bring up mirza's past as an extremely controversial member. As your post makes clear, now both campaigns have someone in them who has been an extremely controversial member in their time. Eddie's campaign team and Eddie himself have tried to play up imabench as being too controversial to hold the VP position. You yourself bsh have been one of the primary attackers of imabench. But I guess now it's even; both campaigns contain controversial members.

If you forgive bench and stop the attacks on him, I'll stop questioning Eddie's judgement for choosing Mirza. It's reciprocal; *you're* the one who claimed imabench couldn't change, and now you're saying we should all assume -- at all times -- that all members have changed. If you're willing to admit that imabench has changed and to stop attacking his character during the election, I will stop going after Mirza as a form of detente (not because I suddenly trust his judgment, but just to bring peace to DDO). But if you have trouble getting past your bad blood with imabench, it's hypocritical to tell me to just get over it with someone who has wronged me twice in the past in major ways. I'll trust mirza in a position of authority only when he proves to me that his *judgment* has improved (not merely that he hasn't done anything super bad for a year). As YYW said in the thread where you wouldn't forgive bench, if often takes 10 good acts towards someone to overcome 1 bad act. I haven't had enough good interactions with mirza since the events in question to trust him in a leadership position, but if you (bsh) really want us to all stop talking about member's pasts, I'm willing to put a pin in it.
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)
dtaylor971
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12/7/2014 1:29:24 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/7/2014 1:12:26 AM, bsh1 wrote:
It is absolutely hypocritical for Mikal's campaign (through Bluesteel) to critique Mirza for past transgressions, when Mikal's VP is Bench. Isn't Mikal's campaign insisting that Bench can improve and change? Why is the same untrue of Mirza...? This is just ridiculous.

Unlike Bench, Mirza has shown himself capable of acting decorously and responsibly when dealing with conflicts. As a forum ambassador, he helped to reduce conflicts and resolve them diplomatically. As for Bench, his ability to do the same is an open question.

Personally, whatever your opinion of Bench or Mirza, I think you should at least grant that they have an equal chance of improvement, though I think Mirza has demonstrated more concrete progress. It is just hypocritical to make the attacks Bluesteel is making.

Well... imabench has never votebombed, never insulted another member, and never started a flame war.

I hope you realize I'm being sarcastic. I think both of them can definitely change. If Mirza can, then imabench will.
"I don't know why gays want to marry, I have spent the last 25 years wishing I wasn't allowed to." -Sadolite
bsh1
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12/7/2014 1:31:44 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/7/2014 1:27:31 AM, bluesteel wrote:
At 12/7/2014 1:12:26 AM, bsh1 wrote:
It is absolutely hypocritical for Mikal's campaign (through Bluesteel) to critique Mirza for past transgressions, when Mikal's VP is Bench. Isn't Mikal's campaign insisting that Bench can improve and change? Why is the same untrue of Mirza...? This is just ridiculous.

Unlike Bench, Mirza has shown himself capable of acting decorously and responsibly when dealing with conflicts. As a forum ambassador, he helped to reduce conflicts and resolve them diplomatically. As for Bench, his ability to do the same is an open question.

Personally, whatever your opinion of Bench or Mirza, I think you should at least grant that they have an equal chance of improvement, though I think Mirza has demonstrated more concrete progress. It is just hypocritical to make the attacks Bluesteel is making.

If anything, your post proves why it was necessary for me to bring up mirza's past as an extremely controversial member. As your post makes clear, now both campaigns have someone in them who has been an extremely controversial member in their time.

Frankly, I disagree. Mirza's transgressions are very much in the past. The same isn't true of Bench. Mirza has, as I pointed out, shown himself to be responsible. Bench has yet to do so. Mirza has shown dedication to the site by working tirelessly in the religion forum to peaceably resolve conflicts. Bench has said he will leave if Mikal doesn't win--not exactly a testament to his love of DDO.
Live Long and Prosper

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"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

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Raisor
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12/7/2014 1:33:43 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Mirza isn't running for VP. Imabench is. I don't understand why Mirza's votebomb from 3 ear ago is relevant to this election.
thett3
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12/7/2014 1:34:43 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/7/2014 1:33:43 AM, Raisor wrote:
Mirza isn't running for VP. Imabench is. I don't understand why Mirza's votebomb from 3 ear ago is relevant to this election.

^^^

Seriously, it was 2011. Let that sink in, guys.
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: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
bsh1
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12/7/2014 1:36:57 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/7/2014 1:33:43 AM, Raisor wrote:
Mirza isn't running for VP. Imabench is. I don't understand why Mirza's votebomb from 3 ear ago is relevant to this election.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

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1harderthanyouthink
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12/7/2014 1:39:09 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/7/2014 1:33:43 AM, Raisor wrote:
Mirza isn't running for VP. Imabench is. I don't understand why Mirza's votebomb from 3 ear ago is relevant to this election.

I actually forgot that Cermank was Blade's VP due to all the posts I've read about Mirza...
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

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ConservativePolitico
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12/7/2014 1:40:33 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/7/2014 1:39:09 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 12/7/2014 1:33:43 AM, Raisor wrote:
Mirza isn't running for VP. Imabench is. I don't understand why Mirza's votebomb from 3 ear ago is relevant to this election.

I actually forgot that Cermank was Blade's VP due to all the posts I've read about Mirza...

It's deception by the [Censored by the DDO Elite].
tylergraham95
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12/7/2014 1:43:57 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Real talk: Mikal and Imabench (ima especially) are actual 13 year olds. No way they should be anywhere near a position of actual power.
"we dig" - Jeanette Runquist (1943 - 2015)
bsh1
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12/7/2014 1:45:02 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/7/2014 1:43:57 AM, tylergraham95 wrote:

OMG...You're online! What's up, man?
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

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Mirza
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12/7/2014 1:46:25 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/7/2014 1:39:09 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
I actually forgot that Cermank was Blade's VP due to all the posts I've read about Mirza...
On a scale of 1-5, how much has your view on me improved after reading all the comments?
tylergraham95
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12/7/2014 1:46:47 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/7/2014 1:45:02 AM, bsh1 wrote:
At 12/7/2014 1:43:57 AM, tylergraham95 wrote:

OMG...You're online! What's up, man?

I am doing most excellent man. What about you?
"we dig" - Jeanette Runquist (1943 - 2015)
1harderthanyouthink
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12/7/2014 1:47:18 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/7/2014 1:46:25 AM, Mirza wrote:
At 12/7/2014 1:39:09 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
I actually forgot that Cermank was Blade's VP due to all the posts I've read about Mirza...
On a scale of 1-5, how much has your view on me improved after reading all the comments?

I had a positive view of you before today, and I still have the same view.
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

-Syd Barrett

DDO Risk King
tylergraham95
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12/7/2014 1:47:43 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/7/2014 1:45:02 AM, bsh1 wrote:
At 12/7/2014 1:43:57 AM, tylergraham95 wrote:

OMG...You're online! What's up, man?

Dude get on the hangout.
"we dig" - Jeanette Runquist (1943 - 2015)
bsh1
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12/7/2014 1:49:03 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/7/2014 1:46:47 AM, tylergraham95 wrote:
At 12/7/2014 1:45:02 AM, bsh1 wrote:
At 12/7/2014 1:43:57 AM, tylergraham95 wrote:

OMG...You're online! What's up, man?

I am doing most excellent man. What about you?

That's good :) I am doing fine...enjoying the Christmas season (or, at least, I am trying to amidst finals).
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

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bluesteel
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12/7/2014 1:49:24 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/7/2014 1:31:44 AM, bsh1 wrote:
At 12/7/2014 1:27:31 AM, bluesteel wrote:
At 12/7/2014 1:12:26 AM, bsh1 wrote:
It is absolutely hypocritical for Mikal's campaign (through Bluesteel) to critique Mirza for past transgressions, when Mikal's VP is Bench. Isn't Mikal's campaign insisting that Bench can improve and change? Why is the same untrue of Mirza...? This is just ridiculous.

Unlike Bench, Mirza has shown himself capable of acting decorously and responsibly when dealing with conflicts. As a forum ambassador, he helped to reduce conflicts and resolve them diplomatically. As for Bench, his ability to do the same is an open question.

Personally, whatever your opinion of Bench or Mirza, I think you should at least grant that they have an equal chance of improvement, though I think Mirza has demonstrated more concrete progress. It is just hypocritical to make the attacks Bluesteel is making.

If anything, your post proves why it was necessary for me to bring up mirza's past as an extremely controversial member. As your post makes clear, now both campaigns have someone in them who has been an extremely controversial member in their time.

Frankly, I disagree. Mirza's transgressions are very much in the past. The same isn't true of Bench. Mirza has, as I pointed out, shown himself to be responsible. Bench has yet to do so. Mirza has shown dedication to the site by working tirelessly in the religion forum to peaceably resolve conflicts. Bench has said he will leave if Mikal doesn't win--not exactly a testament to his love of DDO.

Who is being hypocritical now? One side of your mouth is saying, "we should give people a chance; people can change," the other says, "but not imabench." This thread isn't to call me out for being hypocritical so we can have peace on the site; it's just a campaign thread to show why mirza isn't as bad as imabench.

I trust Dan to answer your accusations himself. As to Mirza, what you're saying is nothing more than your personal impression of him. He hasn't really been active enough for me to fairly assess whether he's changed. He's only voted like one time in the past year. There's not even a big enough dataset to see if he still has questionable RFD's. What does "conflict resolution" on the religious forums even mean? That forum is filled with Christians who mostly just agree with each other. You've basically said to mirza that he made a good first impression on you, and that's all your going off of. I'll note that imabench was one of the people who *defended* me when mirza vote bombed me. He was the first one to vote on my debate proving that mirza had vote bombed. Bench has a long history on this site where he *didn't* cause any problems. You're unfairly judging him on one interaction you had with him, not on his more distant past or his promises to change in the future.
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)
bsh1
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12/7/2014 1:49:40 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/7/2014 1:47:43 AM, tylergraham95 wrote:
At 12/7/2014 1:45:02 AM, bsh1 wrote:
At 12/7/2014 1:43:57 AM, tylergraham95 wrote:

OMG...You're online! What's up, man?

Dude get on the hangout.

Sorry...but it's like 3:00am here...I'm going to sleep soon before I drop dead.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

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bluesteel
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12/7/2014 1:52:29 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/7/2014 1:33:43 AM, Raisor wrote:
Mirza isn't running for VP. Imabench is. I don't understand why Mirza's votebomb from 3 ear ago is relevant to this election.

Eddie has a VP and a COS, but has assigned all of his initiatives from his campaign promise to lannan and mirza. Mirza's judgment is relevant because -- based on the assignment of responsibilities -- he is de facto VP.
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)
bsh1
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12/7/2014 1:57:52 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/7/2014 1:49:24 AM, bluesteel wrote:
At 12/7/2014 1:31:44 AM, bsh1 wrote:

Frankly, I disagree. Mirza's transgressions are very much in the past. The same isn't true of Bench. Mirza has, as I pointed out, shown himself to be responsible. Bench has yet to do so. Mirza has shown dedication to the site by working tirelessly in the religion forum to peaceably resolve conflicts. Bench has said he will leave if Mikal doesn't win--not exactly a testament to his love of DDO.

Who is being hypocritical now? One side of your mouth is saying, "we should give people a chance; people can change," the other says, "but not imabench." This thread isn't to call me out for being hypocritical so we can have peace on the site; it's just a campaign thread to show why mirza isn't as bad as imabench.

I am rather disappointed that you've just strawmaned what I've said. Imabench can change, sure. But, I have seen evidence of Mirza's change re: his ability to handle conflicts. I have not seen that same change from Bench. Therefore, I invest more confidence in the former.

As for the last portion, it is pointing out your hypocrisy. I am not part of Blade's campaign. That I intend to vote for him does not mean I speak on behalf of his campaign.

I trust Dan to answer your accusations himself.

Very well.

As to Mirza, what you're saying is nothing more than your personal impression of him.

Sure, but they are impressions informed through working with him directly on the religion forum issue. My firsthand interactions with him show me he is someone who can handle the responsibility with decorum and skill.

What does "conflict resolution" on the religious forums even mean? That forum is filled with Christians who mostly just agree with each other.

It means getting people to disagree civilly. It means preventing, blunting, or curtailing flamewars. It means working as a mediator to produce some kind of resolution.

Bench has a long history on this site where he *didn't* cause any problems. You're unfairly judging him on one interaction you had with him, not on his more distant past or his promises to change in the future.

Bench's whole history is riddled with problems, Blusteel, and not just with me. This isn't just about Bench's and my dynamic, and you that. I am not going to deny that he has done good things for the site. My issue is with his potential role as an elected representative of the site.
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"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

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imabench
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12/7/2014 2:01:08 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/7/2014 1:24:06 AM, Mirza wrote:

I am disappointed, however, to have been dragged into something I thought was years past me. All for a few small mistakes that brought no real harm and could be corrected.

Welcome to the hell I have to put up with
Kevin24018 : "He's just so mean it makes me want to ball up my fists and stamp on the ground"
Geogeer: "Nobody is dumb enough to become my protege."

7/14/16 = The Presidency Dies

DDO: THE MOVIE = http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...

VP of DDO from Dec 14th 2014 to Jan 1st 2015
bsh1
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12/7/2014 2:03:01 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/7/2014 1:52:29 AM, bluesteel wrote:
At 12/7/2014 1:33:43 AM, Raisor wrote:
Mirza isn't running for VP. Imabench is. I don't understand why Mirza's votebomb from 3 ear ago is relevant to this election.

Eddie has a VP and a COS, but has assigned all of his initiatives from his campaign promise to lannan and mirza. Mirza's judgment is relevant because -- based on the assignment of responsibilities -- he is de facto VP.

That's just not the case. Because Mirza will be working on a specific issue doesn't mean other people won't be playing supervisory roles or won't be involved. The VP and the COS will definitely have more authority.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

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bluesteel
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12/7/2014 2:03:14 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/7/2014 1:34:43 AM, thett3 wrote:
At 12/7/2014 1:33:43 AM, Raisor wrote:
Mirza isn't running for VP. Imabench is. I don't understand why Mirza's votebomb from 3 ear ago is relevant to this election.

^^^

Seriously, it was 2011. Let that sink in, guys.

And he continued to lie about what he did until 2013.... It's still fresh to me, given he only recently even conceded that he did what he did. And it wasn't a simple votebomb like raisor is making it out to be. I think it's fair for me to still not trust him.

Serious question to you thett: if cleaning up the forums is important to the blade administration, why aren't you running point on it?
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)
Raisor
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12/7/2014 2:03:35 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/7/2014 1:52:29 AM, bluesteel wrote:
At 12/7/2014 1:33:43 AM, Raisor wrote:
Mirza isn't running for VP. Imabench is. I don't understand why Mirza's votebomb from 3 ear ago is relevant to this election.

Eddie has a VP and a COS, but has assigned all of his initiatives from his campaign promise to lannan and mirza. Mirza's judgment is relevant because -- based on the assignment of responsibilities -- he is de facto VP.

What? This isn't even close to true.

He specifically mentioned two people in his platform because they weren't listed on the ballot. How you make the leap that this makes them "de facto VP" is beyond me.

How is a votebomb from 3 years ago relevant to Mirza acting as forum ambassador?

Ima left the site VERY recently. He has only been back for about a week and has explicitly said he will leave if he loses the election. He has made his participation in the site contingent on the campaign, and so it is relevant to the campaign.

I don't get why you're turning Mikal's campaign into a weird smear campaign.
Mirza
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12/7/2014 2:03:42 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/7/2014 2:01:08 AM, imabench wrote:
At 12/7/2014 1:24:06 AM, Mirza wrote:

I am disappointed, however, to have been dragged into something I thought was years past me. All for a few small mistakes that brought no real harm and could be corrected.

Welcome to the hell I have to put up with
Thanks!

Well, this is not exactly new for me. I didn't expect it at this time, however, as I strongly believed things changed for me. That's why I find it regrettable that some past mistakes are taken to this level. I am also sensitive, and all this attention bothers the introvert in me.
Raisor
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12/7/2014 2:05:46 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/7/2014 2:01:08 AM, imabench wrote:
At 12/7/2014 1:24:06 AM, Mirza wrote:

I am disappointed, however, to have been dragged into something I thought was years past me. All for a few small mistakes that brought no real harm and could be corrected.

Welcome to the hell I have to put up with

You came back just this week. How is that years past you?