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A response to some issues

Cermank
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12/8/2014 11:08:46 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
I don't think anyone can question the love we all have for the site. We love the site, want it to progress, and that's why our choice of candidate for being a president matters. Who you chose this election is going to have an important impact on 'how' the site runs in the future, the issues in focus and the quality of interactions. Obviously I believe bladerunner administration would be better suited for any presidential role, but it can be argued that I'm biased.

There are some issues that have cropped up in the forums about bladerunner administration, issues I feel are important to be addressed if we are to make a clear decision. I'm going to be brief, but feel free to question any of the assumpions- we need to have a well informed vote if we are to think about whats best for the site.

1. On the office having no power: The office of president has power inasmuch juggle and the mod believe in it. It isn't a set position of with pre defined power inasmuch it is a position with powers that depend on the person occupying the office. If there was a person who either airmax or juggle didn't trust, the position of the president would be marginalised. Bladerunner has been an excellent president, both airmax and juggle trust him. Mikal has accepted that airmax's confidence in him might be hindered by his past exploits, but he promises that would change in the future.

The power of the office literally depends on the person occupying it, it can be a legit voice of the community (by having the mod and juggle listen to/ care about it) or not. I believe that the position is best served by a person who has shown maturity and professionalism in dealing with conflict and authority.

2. On transparency: A lot has been said about this. Some people believe that 100% transparency is the way to go, which is obviously absurd. Something Mikal accepts too, you can't air out user conflicts, for example. What we disagree on, is whether or not we should air juggle correspondence about the projects. Let the community know if juggle isn't invested in the project. Or let it know about the progress made.

Juggle wouldn't like this, for obvious reasons. And if it doesn't trust the president, it just wouldn't take their correspondence seriously, making any of the future updates a definite no. Having maturity and non-impulsiveness while dealing with juggle AND the mod is a pre requisite for the presidential position to be an effective platform over and above a normal user, if one wants to make changes to the site. The only way a president can be a good voice of the community is if it is not marginalized by the 'higher ups' because of their conduct. And I believe Blade has shown that he exemplifies these qualities, not because he's vying for a position, but because of the kind of person he is.

3. On experience: Blade has been a terrific president. He has been accessible for a long time and that isn't changing anytime soon. He's willing to listen to the community, to keep it upto date with the initiatives as much as his position allows. He's been dependable, has good judgement, he knows how to deal with people, with juggle. His platform is THE truth, as true as a platform can be- you will definitely get what's promised. No false hopes. But given his recent connection to juggle, he's definitely in the best position there can be to push for the site updates.

He wouldn't undermine the legitimacy of his position.
YYW
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12/8/2014 11:27:11 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/8/2014 11:08:46 AM, Cermank wrote:
1. On the office having no power: The office of president has power inasmuch juggle and the mod believe in it. It isn't a set position of with pre defined power inasmuch it is a position with powers that depend on the person occupying the office. If there was a person who either airmax or juggle didn't trust, the position of the president would be marginalised. Bladerunner has been an excellent president, both airmax and juggle trust him. Mikal has accepted that airmax's confidence in him might be hindered by his past exploits, but he promises that would change in the future.

The power of the office literally depends on the person occupying it, it can be a legit voice of the community (by having the mod and juggle listen to/ care about it) or not. I believe that the position is best served by a person who has shown maturity and professionalism in dealing with conflict and authority.

Bladerunner has been a good president. Now, to correct some things, there are two reasons that the presidency is important:

1. The president functions as a liaison between the community and Juggle.
2. The president also works with Max on various projects in the forums.

The problem with what you're saying above is that you're more or less implying that Max doesn't have as much confidence in Mikal as he does in Blade, so therefore we should vote for Blade. That is a spectacularly poor reason to vote for a president, because if the standard by which we chose presidents is no more than "who Max approves of" then why even have an election at all? Why not just have Max appoint a president.

I don't think you meant that to come out in the way that you did, but the community has a right to chose who will represent their interests both to Max and Juggle by whatever standard they think is appropriate. I do believe that while some may factor in Max's opinion (which would be reasonable), what you're implying is that we should principally vote for presidents on the basis of who Max approves of... and that's not how democracy works.

I also want to suggest that your subtle implication that the office of the presidency is doomed if Mikal is elected because he is not mature enough to handle the responsibility is misguided. Mikal is a grown man, and a reasonable person whose personality -while different than Blade's- is equally conducive to being an effective president. While when he first joined I might not have been able to say that, the suggestion that Mikal isn't mature or responsible enough to handle the responsibility represents a view that does not reflect who Mikal is.

That said, the Presidency only came into significance recently. Innomen was the first president to actually make the presidency something meaningful, and while the presidency's influence was at an all time high when Max was in office -the reason was both because it was Max who was in office, and because Juggle was at that time very interested in developing the site. So, it should not be lost upon you that the real measure of the potential influence that a president is going to have is how interested Juggle is interested in developing the site.

2. On transparency: A lot has been said about this. Some people believe that 100% transparency is the way to go, which is obviously absurd. Something Mikal accepts too, you can't air out user conflicts, for example. What we disagree on, is whether or not we should air juggle correspondence about the projects. Let the community know if juggle isn't invested in the project. Or let it know about the progress made.

There is a general perception that if people aren't being told things, that stuff is being hidden from them. This isn't really a reasonable belief. I also think Blade's administration has been transparent enough, but a lot of the transparency issues have less to do with presidential stuff and more to do with moderator stuff. So... insofar as the president is not a moderator, that discussion is pretty much moot.

3. On experience: Blade has been a terrific president....He wouldn't undermine the legitimacy of his position.

And your belief that Mikal, if elected, would I think is the crux of why you wrote this thread. Here's why that's not a reason not to vote for Mikal:

For all practical purposes, Mikal is the contemporary equivalent of TUF. When TUF ran for office I had similar fears about TUF's presidency, and that he would do some of the things that you're suggesting Mikal would. While Mikal is not TUF, their personalities are a lot alike. And let's be clear about something: TUF was a fantastic president. While TUF's personality is a bit different than Blade's or Max's, TUF more than sufficiently represented the community to Juggle, and worked with Max to accomplish a number of important things. I think Mikal will do the same.

The fact that Mikal has had some history on DDO of member conflicts shows a few things, though, that you're totally ignoring. Mikal is passionate about what he does, and he'll vigorously advocate for what he believes is right. While in the past that may have manifested in some public, but relatively minor problems, that does not mean that he can not or will not conduct himself professionally with Juggle or with Max. I think a healthy working relationship is more than possible.

The measure of people as candidates is who they are as a person, and your suggestions that Mikal "lacks the maturity" to do the job is very disappointing -especially given recent events. This should be a campaign about ideas, and who has the best ones, and who is most likely to execute them -not subtle attacks on the other side that create a sense of malaise among the electorate. Threads like this are just disheartening, to that end.
Tsar of DDO
Cermank
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12/8/2014 12:18:43 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/8/2014 11:27:11 AM, YYW wrote:
At 12/8/2014 11:08:46 AM, Cermank wrote:

Bladerunner has been a good president. Now, to correct some things, there are two reasons that the presidency is important:

1. The president functions as a liaison between the community and Juggle.
2. The president also works with Max on various projects in the forums.

The problem with what you're saying above is that you're more or less implying that Max doesn't have as much confidence in Mikal as he does in Blade, so therefore we should vote for Blade. That is a spectacularly poor reason to vote for a president, because if the standard by which we chose presidents is no more than "who Max approves of" then why even have an election at all? Why not just have Max appoint a president.

I don't think you meant that to come out in the way that you did, but the community has a right to chose who will represent their interests both to Max and Juggle by whatever standard they think is appropriate. I do believe that while some may factor in Max's opinion (which would be reasonable), what you're implying is that we should principally vote for presidents on the basis of who Max approves of... and that's not how democracy works.

If it came off that way, it definitely wasn't my intention. These are just two planks of what a presidency *implies*, you need to interact with juggle, and you need to interact with Max. The election isn't about personalities, its about chosing the candidate you believe has the best chance of representing your interests.

It *shouldn't* matter what juggle thinks of our choice, they should be fair and listen to us regardless of who the person is.Like it shouldn't matter how you come off during an interview, you should be judged solely on the content of your answers, but we chose the best outfit that we have to represent the best we can be during an interview. Because it does matter.

We can't demand anyone to listen to us no matter how we present our case. Obviously the community is free is decide the standard they deem fit for the election, that's why there is a choice. But *I* believe the standard blade represents is the best bet for the site, which is why I became his VP, and which is why I made this thread. Why I believe the standard blade represents is the best bet in getting the updates we are vying for.

I also want to suggest that your subtle implication that the office of the presidency is doomed if Mikal is elected because he is not mature enough to handle the responsibility is misguided. Mikal is a grown man, and a reasonable person whose personality -while different than Blade's- is equally conducive to being an effective president. While when he first joined I might not have been able to say that, the suggestion that Mikal isn't mature or responsible enough to handle the responsibility represents a view that does not reflect who Mikal is.

That said, the Presidency only came into significance recently. Innomen was the first president to actually make the presidency something meaningful, and while the presidency's influence was at an all time high when Max was in office -the reason was both because it was Max who was in office, and because Juggle was at that time very interested in developing the site. So, it should not be lost upon you that the real measure of the potential influence that a president is going to have is how interested Juggle is interested in developing the site.

Of course, that is something I think we all have been contending. But the position of a president is a position that voices the concerns / demands of a community to juggle. Interactions would have an important impact on how/ whether juggle choses to invest their resources on the site.

There is a general perception that if people aren't being told things, that stuff is being hidden from them. This isn't really a reasonable belief. I also think Blade's administration has been transparent enough, but a lot of the transparency issues have less to do with presidential stuff and more to do with moderator stuff. So... insofar as the president is not a moderator, that discussion is pretty much moot.

I agree. There, however, has been a demand for 100% transparency, so this was one issue that had to be addressed. It isn't possible, and it isn't conductive.

3. On experience: Blade has been a terrific president....He wouldn't undermine the legitimacy of his position.

And your belief that Mikal, if elected, would I think is the crux of why you wrote this thread. Here's why that's not a reason not to vote for Mikal:

Trust me when I say I am not talking about Mikal in this thread. Obviously I have opinions about that, as I'm sure mikal has opinions on blade- but I have been very careful on making this about *blade* and why his characteristics would be the perfect fit for a president, as a representative of the people of the community.

For all practical purposes, Mikal is the contemporary equivalent of TUF. When TUF ran for office I had similar fears about TUF's presidency, and that he would do some of the things that you're suggesting Mikal would. While Mikal is not TUF, their personalities are a lot alike. And let's be clear about something: TUF was a fantastic president. While TUF's personality is a bit different than Blade's or Max's, TUF more than sufficiently represented the community to Juggle, and worked with Max to accomplish a number of important things. I think Mikal will do the same.

The fact that Mikal has had some history on DDO of member conflicts shows a few things, though, that you're totally ignoring. Mikal is passionate about what he does, and he'll vigorously advocate for what he believes is right. While in the past that may have manifested in some public, but relatively minor problems, that does not mean that he can not or will not conduct himself professionally with Juggle or with Max. I think a healthy working relationship is more than possible.

I don't doubt Mikal has the drive to achieve what he wants to. He has the enthusiasm, drive, and passion. But given that this is an *election*, people have to chose between candidates. I believe blade's advocation, in case juggle is interested in the site updates (which it is, given that blade has their word) would be superior to mikal's. We get nothing if juggle isn't interested. IF it is, what we get out of them depends on *how* we advocate for changes. If we have a president who isn't professional, they are not gonna want to deal with us, because they have a lot of projects that require their attention. DDO is but one of their income stream.

The measure of people as candidates is who they are as a person, and your suggestions that Mikal "lacks the maturity" to do the job is very disappointing -especially given recent events. This should be a campaign about ideas, and who has the best ones, and who is most likely to execute them -not subtle attacks on the other side that create a sense of malaise among the electorate. Threads like this are just disheartening, to that end.

I'm sorry you feel that way, but these were some issues that had been cropping up in the forums a *lot*, and I believe we should have addressed them properly. When I chose my prime minister, I care about who he is- as a person. What kind of interactions he would have with other nations, I care about him as much I care about his platform. I can like a person as a person, and *still* not think he is fit for a candidate position. It isn't attacking him as a person, its questioning whether or not he is fit for a specific job.

Regardless, I thought I was pretty on point on keeping this about blade.
cybertron1998
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12/8/2014 12:35:52 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I was going to argue you're biased but you already said it could.
Epsilon: There are so many stories where some brave hero decides to give their life to save the day, and because of their sacrifice, the good guys win, the survivors all cheer, and everybody lives happily ever after. But the hero... never gets to see that ending. They'll never know if their sacrifice actually made a difference. They'll never know if the day was really saved. In the end, they just have to have faith.
Wylted
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12/8/2014 12:37:46 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I don't understand your deal with transparency. Clearly 100% transparency doesn't mean releasing confidential material.

Bladerunner for example stated that Juggle wasn't invested in the site as much right now in some recent threads.

Why wouldn't he state this in the weekly updates so we can know the state of DDO. Keeping that secret serves no purpose. I feel he only released that info because I've been complaining about transparency lately and a few different people carried that torch. I have the feeling that if an issue of transparency didn't come up, it wouldn't even have been mentioned.

Did Juggle directly tell Bladerunner not to mention they aren't invested much in the site right now? Or is this something that Bladerunner just felt like we shouldn't know?

I asked Bladerunner about front page debates right after he got elected and pressed him to advocate for a change to that algorithm.

Why hasn't he discussed the fruits of that conversation, if it was even had. He doesn't have to tell me exactly what's going on but he could at least tell me whether Juggle was receptive to the ideal or not.
Wylted
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12/8/2014 12:40:50 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Why is Mikal's persuasiveness being questioned anyway. He clearly wouldn't have 9,000 ELO if he wasn't extremely good at being persuasive.
YYW
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12/8/2014 12:58:41 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/8/2014 12:18:43 PM, Cermank wrote:
At 12/8/2014 11:27:11 AM, YYW wrote:
At 12/8/2014 11:08:46 AM, Cermank wrote:
Bladerunner has been a good president. Now, to correct some things, there are two reasons that the presidency is important:

1. The president functions as a liaison between the community and Juggle.
2. The president also works with Max on various projects in the forums.

The problem with what you're saying above is that you're more or less implying that Max doesn't have as much confidence in Mikal as he does in Blade, so therefore we should vote for Blade. That is a spectacularly poor reason to vote for a president, because if the standard by which we chose presidents is no more than "who Max approves of" then why even have an election at all? Why not just have Max appoint a president.

I don't think you meant that to come out in the way that you did, but the community has a right to chose who will represent their interests both to Max and Juggle by whatever standard they think is appropriate. I do believe that while some may factor in Max's opinion (which would be reasonable), what you're implying is that we should principally vote for presidents on the basis of who Max approves of... and that's not how democracy works.

If it came off that way, it definitely wasn't my intention. These are just two planks of what a presidency *implies*, you need to interact with juggle, and you need to interact with Max. The election isn't about personalities, its about chosing the candidate you believe has the best chance of representing your interests.

I think that what you're doing here is because you believe it's what's in the best interest of the community, but I know you are vastly overestimating the extent to which who a president is will affect Juggle's interest in anything.

Juggle is a corporation, and what interests them is making money. The personality is important, but it's secondary. Even still, your suggestion that somehow Juggle will reject Mikal because of who he is is warrantless. The fact that Mikal has had some minor disputes with people in the past doesn't mean that he's going to screw things up with Juggle, and it's important for the community to realize that (at the considerable risk of being blunt) that's the beginning and end of your argument here. So, I'm going to suggest that you not speak of it again. As I think you agree, (and if you don't then I have serious qualms about your understanding of what this election means) his is not an election about who Juggle likes the most.

It should also be noted that Juggle, as a corporation, does not allocate resources based on who they like or don't like -and there is ample evidence to support that. Juggle allocates resources based on what it perceives is in its interest -the challenge for any president is to connect Juggle's interests with the community's interests and that is something that I think both Mikal and Blade are equally capable of doing.

3. On experience: Blade has been a terrific president....He wouldn't undermine the legitimacy of his position.

And your belief that Mikal, if elected, would I think is the crux of why you wrote this thread. Here's why that's not a reason not to vote for Mikal:

Trust me when I say I am not talking about Mikal in this thread. Obviously I have opinions about that, as I'm sure mikal has opinions on blade- but I have been very careful on making this about *blade* and why his characteristics would be the perfect fit for a president, as a representative of the people of the community.

That's highly disingenuous, Cermank. What you're doing is setting up a contrast between Mikal and blade and the thru-lines of your post are these:

(1) Blade is mature unlike other people (read: Mikal) so vote for him.
(2) Blade won't screw things up with Juggle because reasons (unlike Mikal).
(3) Max likes Blade more, so voting for Mikal is a bad idea.

If you didn't intend for those to be the takeaway's from this thread, then you seriously need to consider running stuff by Bladerunner before positing it. The problem is that those thru-lines, however important you may or may not feel them to be are the literal takeaway from your OP (in addition to a point about transparency) and they are in no way what this election is about. It's about ideas. I'll encourage you to, rather than doing what you did here, to actually respond to the substance of Mikal's ideas rather than make another thread like this. I don't mean to be terse, but this thread is really disappointing. Even though you probably didn't intend for it to be of the kind that would contribute to the general sense of malaise that has characterized the most recent part of this election, it is and expect more from you guys.

DDO is but one of their income stream.

Indeed. But, the implication to what you're saying is that DDO is so insignificant that Juggle isn't going to care -which is pretty much the last kind of mentality we need in a vice president. Regardless of how insignificant DDO may or may not be on Juggle's holdings, one of the principal responsibilities that a president has is bridging the gap between DDO's interests and Juggle's interests. It's sounding like, right now, you don't think that gap can be bridged. You may be right, but an attitude of defeatism is in no way what the community needs to represent them in any capacity.

When I chose my prime minister, I care about who he is- as a person.

Firstly, even though the DDO president is called "president" he or she (a girl could be elected) isn't really a president or a prime minister. He's an ambassador between different camps: DDO and Juggle. Secondly, this is why your post about keeping this only about Blade is disingenuous -because by implication you're trashing Mikal, and that's an incredibly bad way to campaign. The whole notion of "Vote for us because the other guy's horrible!" is the kind of campaign that results from a perspective of cynicism that should give voters serious pause about voting for someone who is saying those things.
Tsar of DDO
bsh1
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12/8/2014 1:40:36 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/8/2014 11:17:25 AM, Mirza wrote:
Well said.
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bluesteel
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12/8/2014 5:09:17 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Given that the president is not another moderator and that Eddie has stated he expects very little action on Juggle's part even if he is elected (or at least he's said he wants to focus on achievable goals that don't rely on Juggle so you can intuit that from what he said), I think it's important to point out a third thing the president is supposed to do, which is to increase community engagement and get people excited about the site.
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)
bsh1
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12/8/2014 6:02:55 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/8/2014 12:37:46 PM, Wylted wrote:
I don't understand your deal with transparency. Clearly 100% transparency doesn't mean releasing confidential material.

Bladerunner for example stated that Juggle wasn't invested in the site as much right now in some recent threads.

I am pretty sure Blade has either said that directly or intimated it publically before, Wylted. That's not a fair criticism.
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bsh1
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12/8/2014 10:41:23 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/8/2014 11:08:46 AM, Cermank wrote:
I don't think anyone can question the love we all have for the site. We love the site, want it to progress, and that's why our choice of candidate for being a president matters. Who you chose this election is going to have an important impact on 'how' the site runs in the future, the issues in focus and the quality of interactions. Obviously I believe bladerunner administration would be better suited for any presidential role, but it can be argued that I'm biased.

2. On transparency: A lot has been said about this. Some people believe that 100% transparency is the way to go, which is obviously absurd. Something Mikal accepts too, you can't air out user conflicts, for example. What we disagree on, is whether or not we should air juggle correspondence about the projects. Let the community know if juggle isn't invested in the project. Or let it know about the progress made.

Juggle wouldn't like this, for obvious reasons. And if it doesn't trust the president, it just wouldn't take their correspondence seriously, making any of the future updates a definite no. Having maturity and non-impulsiveness while dealing with juggle AND the mod is a pre requisite for the presidential position to be an effective platform over and above a normal user, if one wants to make changes to the site. The only way a president can be a good voice of the community is if it is not marginalized by the 'higher ups' because of their conduct. And I believe Blade has shown that he exemplifies these qualities, not because he's vying for a position, but because of the kind of person he is.

3. On experience: Blade has been a terrific president. He has been accessible for a long time and that isn't changing anytime soon. He's willing to listen to the community, to keep it upto date with the initiatives as much as his position allows. He's been dependable, has good judgement, he knows how to deal with people, with juggle. His platform is THE truth, as true as a platform can be- you will definitely get what's promised. No false hopes. But given his recent connection to juggle, he's definitely in the best position there can be to push for the site updates.

I think these two points in particular are really great.
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Cermank
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12/8/2014 10:46:55 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/8/2014 5:09:17 PM, bluesteel wrote:
Given that the president is not another moderator and that Eddie has stated he expects very little action on Juggle's part even if he is elected (or at least he's said he wants to focus on achievable goals that don't rely on Juggle so you can intuit that from what he said), I think it's important to point out a third thing the president is supposed to do, which is to increase community engagement and get people excited about the site.

I agree, which is why it is the crux of our platform. Voting initiatives, tournaments, user engagement is really what we *would* focus on, 100%, because that is what we know we can definitely achieve.