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Anyone want to debate in favor of torture?

YYW
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12/15/2014 3:48:29 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I'm interested in someone willing to defend the CIA's methods, assuming all facts in the recent congressional report (which I will be happy to furnish you with a link to, but which I'm not going to post on the general forums) are true.

Anyone game?
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Wylted
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12/15/2014 3:49:51 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/15/2014 3:48:29 PM, YYW wrote:
I'm interested in someone willing to defend the CIA's methods, assuming all facts in the recent congressional report (which I will be happy to furnish you with a link to, but which I'm not going to post on the general forums) are true.

Anyone game?

You had to post this when I have like 6 debates going.
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YYW
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12/15/2014 3:50:25 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/15/2014 3:49:51 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 12/15/2014 3:48:29 PM, YYW wrote:
I'm interested in someone willing to defend the CIA's methods, assuming all facts in the recent congressional report (which I will be happy to furnish you with a link to, but which I'm not going to post on the general forums) are true.

Anyone game?

You had to post this when I have like 6 debates going.

lol sorry dude
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Envisage
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12/15/2014 4:18:16 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/15/2014 3:48:29 PM, YYW wrote:
I'm interested in someone willing to defend the CIA's methods, assuming all facts in the recent congressional report (which I will be happy to furnish you with a link to, but which I'm not going to post on the general forums) are true.

Anyone game?

Fashion a debate with the rules and full resolution and I might be tempted. I want to know exactly what I am defending though.
YYW
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12/15/2014 4:20:30 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/15/2014 4:18:16 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 12/15/2014 3:48:29 PM, YYW wrote:
I'm interested in someone willing to defend the CIA's methods, assuming all facts in the recent congressional report (which I will be happy to furnish you with a link to, but which I'm not going to post on the general forums) are true.

Anyone game?

Fashion a debate with the rules and full resolution and I might be tempted. I want to know exactly what I am defending though.

Fair point... maybe I should just post the link.

http://www.nytimes.com...

Have a look. Let me know what you think.

I'm going to use standard debate rules.
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bluesteel
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12/15/2014 4:22:24 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/15/2014 3:48:29 PM, YYW wrote:
I'm interested in someone willing to defend the CIA's methods, assuming all facts in the recent congressional report (which I will be happy to furnish you with a link to, but which I'm not going to post on the general forums) are true.

Anyone game?

lol, I'd only debate that it is an effective method of getting reliable information under certain circumstances (e.g. when the Nazis tortured people to force them to name co-conspirators), but probably almost completely ineffective in the War on Terror (cuz you have to be pretty sure the person *has* the knowledge you want before torturing) and that it's not moral. lol, so since i know you don't want to debate that, I'm out.

Can I get a tl;dr on the torture report? I saw something about it on Reddit, but was in finals mode and couldn't really read up.
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)
Envisage
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12/15/2014 4:22:55 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/15/2014 4:20:30 PM, YYW wrote:
At 12/15/2014 4:18:16 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 12/15/2014 3:48:29 PM, YYW wrote:
I'm interested in someone willing to defend the CIA's methods, assuming all facts in the recent congressional report (which I will be happy to furnish you with a link to, but which I'm not going to post on the general forums) are true.

Anyone game?

Fashion a debate with the rules and full resolution and I might be tempted. I want to know exactly what I am defending though.

Fair point... maybe I should just post the link.

http://www.nytimes.com...

Have a look. Let me know what you think.

I'm going to use standard debate rules.

I mean, I don't want to debate whether or not the article is true, so a debate on the priori assumption that they are true is preferable. If so then listing the techniques in the resolution (whatever they are) and their purposes is necessary.

E.g.

The Torture Techniques XYZ were sufficiently justified/permissible/whatever
Envisage
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12/15/2014 4:24:24 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/15/2014 4:20:30 PM, YYW wrote:
At 12/15/2014 4:18:16 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 12/15/2014 3:48:29 PM, YYW wrote:
I'm interested in someone willing to defend the CIA's methods, assuming all facts in the recent congressional report (which I will be happy to furnish you with a link to, but which I'm not going to post on the general forums) are true.

Anyone game?

Fashion a debate with the rules and full resolution and I might be tempted. I want to know exactly what I am defending though.

Fair point... maybe I should just post the link.

http://www.nytimes.com...

Have a look. Let me know what you think.

I'm going to use standard debate rules.

Holy f*ck. I am not reading a 500 page report just to find out what I am debating (!).
YYW
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12/15/2014 4:25:20 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/15/2014 4:22:55 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 12/15/2014 4:20:30 PM, YYW wrote:
At 12/15/2014 4:18:16 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 12/15/2014 3:48:29 PM, YYW wrote:
I'm interested in someone willing to defend the CIA's methods, assuming all facts in the recent congressional report (which I will be happy to furnish you with a link to, but which I'm not going to post on the general forums) are true.

Anyone game?

Fashion a debate with the rules and full resolution and I might be tempted. I want to know exactly what I am defending though.

Fair point... maybe I should just post the link.

http://www.nytimes.com...

Have a look. Let me know what you think.

I'm going to use standard debate rules.

I mean, I don't want to debate whether or not the article is true, so a debate on the priori assumption that they are true is preferable. If so then listing the techniques in the resolution (whatever they are) and their purposes is necessary.

E.g.

The Torture Techniques XYZ were sufficiently justified/permissible/whatever

So, maybe I wasn't clear....

assuming that the report is true, I want someone to defend what the CIA did.
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YYW
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12/15/2014 4:29:00 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/15/2014 4:22:24 PM, bluesteel wrote:
At 12/15/2014 3:48:29 PM, YYW wrote:
I'm interested in someone willing to defend the CIA's methods, assuming all facts in the recent congressional report (which I will be happy to furnish you with a link to, but which I'm not going to post on the general forums) are true.

Anyone game?

lol, I'd only debate that it is an effective method of getting reliable information under certain circumstances (e.g. when the Nazis tortured people to force them to name co-conspirators), but probably almost completely ineffective in the War on Terror (cuz you have to be pretty sure the person *has* the knowledge you want before torturing) and that it's not moral. lol, so since i know you don't want to debate that, I'm out.

Can I get a tl;dr on the torture report? I saw something about it on Reddit, but was in finals mode and couldn't really read up.

The US Government did some really fvcked up sh!t to people. Methods were purposed to dehumanize, inflict pain, cause psychological trauma and the like. I haven't read the report, but what I've seen is horrendous.
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bluesteel
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12/15/2014 4:32:09 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/15/2014 4:29:00 PM, YYW wrote:
At 12/15/2014 4:22:24 PM, bluesteel wrote:
At 12/15/2014 3:48:29 PM, YYW wrote:
I'm interested in someone willing to defend the CIA's methods, assuming all facts in the recent congressional report (which I will be happy to furnish you with a link to, but which I'm not going to post on the general forums) are true.

Anyone game?

lol, I'd only debate that it is an effective method of getting reliable information under certain circumstances (e.g. when the Nazis tortured people to force them to name co-conspirators), but probably almost completely ineffective in the War on Terror (cuz you have to be pretty sure the person *has* the knowledge you want before torturing) and that it's not moral. lol, so since i know you don't want to debate that, I'm out.

Can I get a tl;dr on the torture report? I saw something about it on Reddit, but was in finals mode and couldn't really read up.

The US Government did some really fvcked up sh!t to people. Methods were purposed to dehumanize, inflict pain, cause psychological trauma and the like. I haven't read the report, but what I've seen is horrendous.

I'm not remotely surprised. Have you seen the Abu Graib photos? Why would the CIA be any more humane to suspected Al Qaeda operatives than our military was to suspected Iraqi insurgents? We've also known for a long time that both waterboarding and sleep deprivation were approved methods they used. The humiliation stuff gets more of a visceral reaction from people, but if you ask special forces people who have to go through interrogation training, sleep deprivation and waterboarding are way worse than the humiliation-based techniques (in terms of their effects on your psyche).
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)
bluesteel
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12/15/2014 4:33:09 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
*interrogation training as in they are essentially subjected to mild torture to learn to stand up to it.
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)
YYW
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12/15/2014 4:44:09 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/15/2014 4:32:09 PM, bluesteel wrote:
At 12/15/2014 4:29:00 PM, YYW wrote:
At 12/15/2014 4:22:24 PM, bluesteel wrote:
At 12/15/2014 3:48:29 PM, YYW wrote:
I'm interested in someone willing to defend the CIA's methods, assuming all facts in the recent congressional report (which I will be happy to furnish you with a link to, but which I'm not going to post on the general forums) are true.

Anyone game?

lol, I'd only debate that it is an effective method of getting reliable information under certain circumstances (e.g. when the Nazis tortured people to force them to name co-conspirators), but probably almost completely ineffective in the War on Terror (cuz you have to be pretty sure the person *has* the knowledge you want before torturing) and that it's not moral. lol, so since i know you don't want to debate that, I'm out.

Can I get a tl;dr on the torture report? I saw something about it on Reddit, but was in finals mode and couldn't really read up.

The US Government did some really fvcked up sh!t to people. Methods were purposed to dehumanize, inflict pain, cause psychological trauma and the like. I haven't read the report, but what I've seen is horrendous.

I'm not remotely surprised.

I'm not either, but it's one thing to "know" that it might be out there, whereas it's another thing entirely to be actually confronted with it.

Have you seen the Abu Graib photos?

Yes.

Why would the CIA be any more humane to suspected Al Qaeda operatives than our military was to suspected Iraqi insurgents? We've also known for a long time that both waterboarding and sleep deprivation were approved methods they used. The humiliation stuff gets more of a visceral reaction from people, but if you ask special forces people who have to go through interrogation training, sleep deprivation and waterboarding are way worse than the humiliation-based techniques (in terms of their effects on your psyche).

A lot of the stuff they did makes Abu Ghraib look tame.
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SamStevens
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12/15/2014 4:44:33 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/15/2014 4:24:24 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 12/15/2014 4:20:30 PM, YYW wrote:
At 12/15/2014 4:18:16 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 12/15/2014 3:48:29 PM, YYW wrote:
I'm interested in someone willing to defend the CIA's methods, assuming all facts in the recent congressional report (which I will be happy to furnish you with a link to, but which I'm not going to post on the general forums) are true.

Anyone game?

Fashion a debate with the rules and full resolution and I might be tempted. I want to know exactly what I am defending though.

Fair point... maybe I should just post the link.

http://www.nytimes.com...

Have a look. Let me know what you think.

I'm going to use standard debate rules.

Holy f*ck. I am not reading a 500 page report just to find out what I am debating (!).

It's actually 528 pages. You ought to get the ball rolling because that seems like a lot of reading.
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bluesteel
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12/15/2014 4:50:12 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/15/2014 4:44:09 PM, YYW wrote:

A lot of the stuff they did makes Abu Ghraib look tame.

e.g.?

(sorry, I'm not normally this lazy and would go research myself, but just finished my last final and my brain is fried, and you seem to have a good handle on this, so.... easier to get a recap from you than read 10 news articles).
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)
YYW
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12/15/2014 4:53:49 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/15/2014 4:50:12 PM, bluesteel wrote:
At 12/15/2014 4:44:09 PM, YYW wrote:

A lot of the stuff they did makes Abu Ghraib look tame.

e.g.?

(sorry, I'm not normally this lazy and would go research myself, but just finished my last final and my brain is fried, and you seem to have a good handle on this, so.... easier to get a recap from you than read 10 news articles).

I just did the same and mine is too.

http://www.vice.com...
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bluesteel
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12/15/2014 4:56:06 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/15/2014 4:53:49 PM, YYW wrote:
At 12/15/2014 4:50:12 PM, bluesteel wrote:
At 12/15/2014 4:44:09 PM, YYW wrote:

A lot of the stuff they did makes Abu Ghraib look tame.

e.g.?

(sorry, I'm not normally this lazy and would go research myself, but just finished my last final and my brain is fried, and you seem to have a good handle on this, so.... easier to get a recap from you than read 10 news articles).

I just did the same and mine is too.

http://www.vice.com...

lol ... fair.

YAY PICTURES. That I can handle.
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)
YYW
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12/15/2014 4:57:40 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/15/2014 4:56:06 PM, bluesteel wrote:
At 12/15/2014 4:53:49 PM, YYW wrote:
At 12/15/2014 4:50:12 PM, bluesteel wrote:
At 12/15/2014 4:44:09 PM, YYW wrote:

A lot of the stuff they did makes Abu Ghraib look tame.

e.g.?

(sorry, I'm not normally this lazy and would go research myself, but just finished my last final and my brain is fried, and you seem to have a good handle on this, so.... easier to get a recap from you than read 10 news articles).

I just did the same and mine is too.

http://www.vice.com...

lol ... fair.

YAY PICTURES. That I can handle.

Illustrations do have a way of getting the point across... but yeah... I think this is probably worse than Abu Gr.
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Romanii
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12/15/2014 5:08:03 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/15/2014 4:57:40 PM, YYW wrote:
At 12/15/2014 4:56:06 PM, bluesteel wrote:
At 12/15/2014 4:53:49 PM, YYW wrote:
At 12/15/2014 4:50:12 PM, bluesteel wrote:
At 12/15/2014 4:44:09 PM, YYW wrote:

A lot of the stuff they did makes Abu Ghraib look tame.

e.g.?

(sorry, I'm not normally this lazy and would go research myself, but just finished my last final and my brain is fried, and you seem to have a good handle on this, so.... easier to get a recap from you than read 10 news articles).

I just did the same and mine is too.

http://www.vice.com...

lol ... fair.

YAY PICTURES. That I can handle.

Illustrations do have a way of getting the point across... but yeah... I think this is probably worse than Abu Gr.

It got blocked by my web filter.... not a good sign O_o
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12/15/2014 5:15:54 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/15/2014 3:48:29 PM, YYW wrote:
I'm interested in someone willing to defend the CIA's methods, assuming all facts in the recent congressional report (which I will be happy to furnish you with a link to, but which I'm not going to post on the general forums) are true.

Anyone game?

I'm not interested in debating you on this, but I'm definitely interested in reading the report. Would you mind sharing it with me in a PM?

I've always been on the fence when it comes to torture, it's hard to see the results when I've never been exposed to it myself, aside from Hollywood films or Liveleak.
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Blade-of-Truth
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12/15/2014 5:16:37 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/15/2014 4:20:30 PM, YYW wrote:
At 12/15/2014 4:18:16 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 12/15/2014 3:48:29 PM, YYW wrote:
I'm interested in someone willing to defend the CIA's methods, assuming all facts in the recent congressional report (which I will be happy to furnish you with a link to, but which I'm not going to post on the general forums) are true.

Anyone game?

Fashion a debate with the rules and full resolution and I might be tempted. I want to know exactly what I am defending though.

Fair point... maybe I should just post the link.

http://www.nytimes.com...

Have a look. Let me know what you think.

I'm going to use standard debate rules.

Oops, you can ignore the last comment asking if you'd send it to me via PM, lol.
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lannan13
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12/15/2014 5:42:58 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/15/2014 3:48:29 PM, YYW wrote:
I'm interested in someone willing to defend the CIA's methods, assuming all facts in the recent congressional report (which I will be happy to furnish you with a link to, but which I'm not going to post on the general forums) are true.

Anyone game?

I'm up for it.
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dtaylor971
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12/15/2014 5:47:11 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/15/2014 3:48:29 PM, YYW wrote:
I'm interested in someone willing to defend the CIA's methods, assuming all facts in the recent congressional report (which I will be happy to furnish you with a link to, but which I'm not going to post on the general forums) are true.

Anyone game?

Ok... let's see here.

In light of the shocking CIA report (which Dick Cheney defended) we see that...

-Torture did not work/was not needed in various cases
-Innocent people have died/ are at risk of dying due to torture
-The manner of torture is absolutely horrific- it goes against the constitution in pretty much every way
-There was no evidence that torture helped unlock vital secrets
-Dick Cheney said the report was "full of crap."

You have five very solid reasons against torture, all stemming from the official CIA report.
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thett3
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12/15/2014 5:49:41 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I'm not really interested, but if I took this debate I would argue extraordinary rendition. If the CIA doesn't torture, we just send the captives off to other countries to be tortured.
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: thett was right
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12/15/2014 6:08:42 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/15/2014 3:48:29 PM, YYW wrote:
I'm interested in someone willing to defend the CIA's methods, assuming all facts in the recent congressional report (which I will be happy to furnish you with a link to, but which I'm not going to post on the general forums) are true.

Anyone game?

Your premise is a little skewed in your favor bc most of the people defending the CIA claim many of the facts in the report regarding efficacy are untrue.

I would take this debate but probably not with the handicap of having to concede the reports conclusion that torture is not a useful way of obtaining intelligence.
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YYW
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12/15/2014 8:17:22 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/15/2014 5:49:41 PM, thett3 wrote:
I'm not really interested, but if I took this debate I would argue extraordinary rendition. If the CIA doesn't torture, we just send the captives off to other countries to be tortured.

You're in favor of ex. rendition?
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thett3
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12/15/2014 8:18:27 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/15/2014 8:17:22 PM, YYW wrote:
At 12/15/2014 5:49:41 PM, thett3 wrote:
I'm not really interested, but if I took this debate I would argue extraordinary rendition. If the CIA doesn't torture, we just send the captives off to other countries to be tortured.

You're in favor of ex. rendition?

No. I would argue it's worse than the CIA torture, so having the CIA do it is overall better.

But that's not an argument I believe in or want to make
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: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
YYW
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12/15/2014 8:20:06 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/15/2014 8:18:27 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 12/15/2014 8:17:22 PM, YYW wrote:
At 12/15/2014 5:49:41 PM, thett3 wrote:
I'm not really interested, but if I took this debate I would argue extraordinary rendition. If the CIA doesn't torture, we just send the captives off to other countries to be tortured.

You're in favor of ex. rendition?

No. I would argue it's worse than the CIA torture, so having the CIA do it is overall better.

But that's not an argument I believe in or want to make

I can understand that... at some point we can chat via PM about how I think the CIA should have operated, but that's not the kind of thing I want to talk about in the forums.

Although as between torture and rendition, I generally agree with you.
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donald.keller
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12/15/2014 8:23:35 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/15/2014 3:48:29 PM, YYW wrote:
I'm interested in someone willing to defend the CIA's methods, assuming all facts in the recent congressional report (which I will be happy to furnish you with a link to, but which I'm not going to post on the general forums) are true.

Anyone game?

I'm okay with psychological torture... Things don't don't leave scars or permanent physical damage or disability. Anything that physically harms someone is out of the picture. I can't justify a world where we let our people get hurt or endanger our citizens and soldiers because we don't think hurting the bad guy is very nice, though.
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