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Is it okay to objectify women

Mikal
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12/19/2014 10:40:06 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
http://www.debate.org...

I may actually do a debate about it :)

Zaradi caught some flame in a previous thread for semi defending it (from a moral stance). Anyway thoughts?

Is is alright to objectify women in today's society
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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12/19/2014 10:47:22 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
It is as okay as it is to treat anyone as one-dimensional single purpose objects.
This is not to say that it is okay to harass and cat-call, as that is not objectifying them per se.
My work here is, finally, done.
The_Fool_on_the_hill
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12/19/2014 10:56:11 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/19/2014 10:40:06 AM, Mikal wrote:
http://www.debate.org...


I may actually do a debate about it :)

Zaradi caught some flame in a previous thread for semi defending it (from a moral stance). Anyway thoughts?

Is is alright to objectify women in today's society

The Fool: Because of the propaganda most people are confused on exactly what constitutes objectification. People do not use the term consistently enough to be making sense most of the time.

The very fact that you even saying, should it be okay to objectify women, bleeds misandry. As objectification, properly speaking, is type of exploitation and we shouldn't exploit anybody.

Thus the argument is really are women being exploited when they choose to use their bodies to make money.

The obvious answer is sometimes yes sometimes no. The question becomes a matter of "should be women be allowed to form their own social contracts regarding money and their own bodys", despite the fact that sometimes they may get the short end of the deal. Such social contracts are not particular to women and to deny them of it is to treat them as mindless children who must be protected from their own decisions.

Against The Ideologist
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
Blade-of-Truth
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12/19/2014 11:36:37 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Some women desire objectification. By dressing in tops that reveal the top half of their breasts, or short skirts they are basically begging to be objectified. The funniest is when women get pissed at guys for looking at their chests even though they are wearing shirts that reveal cleavage. What do they expect?

In those cases, I think it's okay to objectify women, for the most part they bring it on themselves. I rarely objectify nuns or women wearing ugly sweaters.
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Vox_Veritas
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12/19/2014 11:43:12 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
If women may dress as they wish, then men may lust as they wish. It's as simple as that.
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

The DDO Blog:
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#drinkthecoffeenotthekoolaid
Genghis_Khan
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12/19/2014 11:53:13 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/19/2014 11:43:12 AM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
If women may dress as they wish, then men may lust as they wish. It's as simple as that.

that's correct.
unless you're implying that sexual harassment/assault is an extension of lust... it's not.
anything your heart desires
Vox_Veritas
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12/19/2014 11:56:37 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/19/2014 11:53:13 AM, Genghis_Khan wrote:
At 12/19/2014 11:43:12 AM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
If women may dress as they wish, then men may lust as they wish. It's as simple as that.

that's correct.
unless you're implying that sexual harassment/assault is an extension of lust... it's not.

I'm not talking about harassment or rape.
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

The DDO Blog:
https://debatedotorg.wordpress.com...

#drinkthecoffeenotthekoolaid
Genghis_Khan
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12/19/2014 11:57:29 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/19/2014 11:56:37 AM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 12/19/2014 11:53:13 AM, Genghis_Khan wrote:
At 12/19/2014 11:43:12 AM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
If women may dress as they wish, then men may lust as they wish. It's as simple as that.

that's correct.
unless you're implying that sexual harassment/assault is an extension of lust... it's not.

I'm not talking about harassment or rape.

k good.
some people use the same logic to engage in victim blaming.
anything your heart desires
Vox_Veritas
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12/19/2014 11:58:28 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/19/2014 11:57:29 AM, Genghis_Khan wrote:
At 12/19/2014 11:56:37 AM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 12/19/2014 11:53:13 AM, Genghis_Khan wrote:
At 12/19/2014 11:43:12 AM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
If women may dress as they wish, then men may lust as they wish. It's as simple as that.

that's correct.
unless you're implying that sexual harassment/assault is an extension of lust... it's not.

I'm not talking about harassment or rape.

k good.
some people use the same logic to engage in victim blaming.

Go Charizard!
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

The DDO Blog:
https://debatedotorg.wordpress.com...

#drinkthecoffeenotthekoolaid
The_Fool_on_the_hill
Posts: 6,071
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12/19/2014 12:00:55 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/19/2014 11:36:37 AM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
Some women desire objectification. By dressing in tops that reveal the top half of their breasts, or short skirts they are basically begging to be objectified. The funniest is when women get pissed at guys for looking at their chests even though they are wearing shirts that reveal cleavage. What do they expect?

Blade-of-Truth: In those cases, I think it's okay to objectify women, for the most part they bring it on themselves. I rarely objectify nuns or women wearing ugly sweaters.

The Fool: Yes but this is an equivocation of the term "object", as in "that" which is acted upon, as opposed to "subject" as an agent. Many of us enjoy being the "object of desire" and that is the sense in which many women enjoy being objectified. But most don"t want to be seen as merely objects; the second equivocation of the term "objectification" which Kage is making. But objectification in the immoral sense is exploitation. That is, to be used only as a means/tool/object to their own disenfranchisement.

Against The Ideologist

Objectification as in acting upon something. Blade
Objectification as in merely that which is acted upon. Kage.
Objectification as in exploitation. Kant
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
mishapqueen
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12/19/2014 12:01:12 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/19/2014 11:43:12 AM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
If women may dress as they wish, then men may lust as they wish. It's as simple as that.

I agree! I like how you put that.
You cannot choose whether or not you will live by rules, but you can choose which rules you will live by. --Me

"I was wrong. Squirrels are objectively superior to bunnies in every conceivable dimension."
--Joey

"Silence is golden, duct tape is silver" --PetersSmith

Nunc aut Numquam
Genghis_Khan
Posts: 480
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12/19/2014 12:01:39 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/19/2014 11:58:28 AM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 12/19/2014 11:57:29 AM, Genghis_Khan wrote:
At 12/19/2014 11:56:37 AM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 12/19/2014 11:53:13 AM, Genghis_Khan wrote:
At 12/19/2014 11:43:12 AM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
If women may dress as they wish, then men may lust as they wish. It's as simple as that.

that's correct.
unless you're implying that sexual harassment/assault is an extension of lust... it's not.

I'm not talking about harassment or rape.

k good.
some people use the same logic to engage in victim blaming.

Go Charizard!

no can do. you didn't say "I choose you". how can I do what you say if you didn't choose me!!?
anything your heart desires
Vox_Veritas
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12/19/2014 12:03:17 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/19/2014 12:01:12 PM, mishapqueen wrote:
At 12/19/2014 11:43:12 AM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
If women may dress as they wish, then men may lust as they wish. It's as simple as that.

I agree! I like how you put that.

If men have to show restraint and not lust, then women also need to restrain themselves from dressing in a provocative manner. Anything less is misandry.
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

The DDO Blog:
https://debatedotorg.wordpress.com...

#drinkthecoffeenotthekoolaid
The_Fool_on_the_hill
Posts: 6,071
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12/19/2014 12:03:45 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
" Because of the propaganda most people are confused on exactly what constitutes objectification. People do not use the term consistently enough to be making sense most of the time."

From
http://www.debate.org...
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
mishapqueen
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12/19/2014 12:03:59 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/19/2014 12:03:17 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 12/19/2014 12:01:12 PM, mishapqueen wrote:
At 12/19/2014 11:43:12 AM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
If women may dress as they wish, then men may lust as they wish. It's as simple as that.

I agree! I like how you put that.

If men have to show restraint and not lust, then women also need to restrain themselves from dressing in a provocative manner. Anything less is misandry.

Exactly. I agree with you completely.
You cannot choose whether or not you will live by rules, but you can choose which rules you will live by. --Me

"I was wrong. Squirrels are objectively superior to bunnies in every conceivable dimension."
--Joey

"Silence is golden, duct tape is silver" --PetersSmith

Nunc aut Numquam
Vox_Veritas
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12/19/2014 12:24:43 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/19/2014 12:01:39 PM, Genghis_Khan wrote:
At 12/19/2014 11:58:28 AM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 12/19/2014 11:57:29 AM, Genghis_Khan wrote:
At 12/19/2014 11:56:37 AM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 12/19/2014 11:53:13 AM, Genghis_Khan wrote:
At 12/19/2014 11:43:12 AM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
If women may dress as they wish, then men may lust as they wish. It's as simple as that.

that's correct.
unless you're implying that sexual harassment/assault is an extension of lust... it's not.

I'm not talking about harassment or rape.

k good.
some people use the same logic to engage in victim blaming.

Go Charizard!

no can do. you didn't say "I choose you". how can I do what you say if you didn't choose me!!?

I choose you Charizard! Use Self-Destruct!
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

The DDO Blog:
https://debatedotorg.wordpress.com...

#drinkthecoffeenotthekoolaid
The_Fool_on_the_hill
Posts: 6,071
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12/19/2014 12:36:23 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/19/2014 11:57:29 AM, Genghis_Khan wrote:
At 12/19/2014 11:56:37 AM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 12/19/2014 11:53:13 AM, Genghis_Khan wrote:
At 12/19/2014 11:43:12 AM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
If women may dress as they wish, then men may lust as they wish. It's as simple as that.

that's correct.
unless you're implying that sexual harassment/assault is an extension of lust... it's not.

I'm not talking about harassment or rape.

k good.
some people use the same logic to engage in victim blaming.

The Fool:. People who speak like this, usually know nothing about logic. As somebody has to be a victim, before there can be victim blaming.
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
Genghis_Khan
Posts: 480
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12/19/2014 12:40:08 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/19/2014 12:36:23 PM, The_Fool_on_the_hill wrote:
At 12/19/2014 11:57:29 AM, Genghis_Khan wrote:
At 12/19/2014 11:56:37 AM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 12/19/2014 11:53:13 AM, Genghis_Khan wrote:
At 12/19/2014 11:43:12 AM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
If women may dress as they wish, then men may lust as they wish. It's as simple as that.

that's correct.
unless you're implying that sexual harassment/assault is an extension of lust... it's not.

I'm not talking about harassment or rape.

k good.
some people use the same logic to engage in victim blaming.

The Fool:. People who speak like this, usually know nothing about logic. As somebody has to be a victim, before there can be victim blaming.

are you implying that there is no victim in sexual assault?
anything your heart desires
Genghis_Khan
Posts: 480
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12/19/2014 12:40:27 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/19/2014 12:24:43 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 12/19/2014 12:01:39 PM, Genghis_Khan wrote:
At 12/19/2014 11:58:28 AM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 12/19/2014 11:57:29 AM, Genghis_Khan wrote:
At 12/19/2014 11:56:37 AM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 12/19/2014 11:53:13 AM, Genghis_Khan wrote:
At 12/19/2014 11:43:12 AM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
If women may dress as they wish, then men may lust as they wish. It's as simple as that.

that's correct.
unless you're implying that sexual harassment/assault is an extension of lust... it's not.

I'm not talking about harassment or rape.

k good.
some people use the same logic to engage in victim blaming.

Go Charizard!

no can do. you didn't say "I choose you". how can I do what you say if you didn't choose me!!?

I choose you Charizard! Use Self-Destruct!

Use veto!
anything your heart desires
The_Fool_on_the_hill
Posts: 6,071
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12/19/2014 1:04:12 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/19/2014 12:40:08 PM, Genghis_Khan wrote:
At 12/19/2014 12:36:23 PM, The_Fool_on_the_hill wrote:
At 12/19/2014 11:57:29 AM, Genghis_Khan wrote:
At 12/19/2014 11:56:37 AM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 12/19/2014 11:53:13 AM, Genghis_Khan wrote:
At 12/19/2014 11:43:12 AM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
If women may dress as they wish, then men may lust as they wish. It's as simple as that.

that's correct.
unless you're implying that sexual harassment/assault is an extension of lust... it's not.

I'm not talking about harassment or rape.

k good.
some people use the same logic to engage in victim blaming.

The Fool:. People who speak like this, usually know nothing about logic. As somebody has to be a victim, before there can be victim blaming.

Genghis_Khan: are you implying that there is no victim in sexual assault?

The Fool: Victimizing is inherent in the concept of sexual assault, by virtue of what means to assault.. Therefore it is not possible to imply that.. What are you implying?

Against The Ideologist
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
The_Fool_on_the_hill
Posts: 6,071
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12/19/2014 1:07:11 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
*by virtue of what [it] means to assault.
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
zmikecuber
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12/19/2014 1:07:21 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/19/2014 10:40:06 AM, Mikal wrote:
http://www.debate.org...


I may actually do a debate about it :)

Zaradi caught some flame in a previous thread for semi defending it (from a moral stance). Anyway thoughts?

Is is alright to objectify women in today's society

I don't think so. But it depends on your definition of "objectifying."

Some people are pointing out that some girls are asking for it by the way they dress... well yes and no.

While I think there are some ways that women dress that DO ask for objectification (for example... wearing a bikini) there's also many different ways men can objectify women who are dressed modestly... simply because they're perverts.

I guess what I'm saying is that there has to be a happy medium in what constitutes modest dress; that is, you have to dress in a way that doesn't invite objectification, but you can't dress in a way that makes objectification impossible... Because that would like, be like... wearing a cardboard box so you can't see any shape of your body at all.

Anyways, I think that there *is* a way we can morally admire the human body; the human body isn't immoral to look at per se. However, when it comes down to it, I think most of the time when guys look at women who are not wearing many clothes... they're not admiring the beauty of the human body, but rather thinking about how much they would love to motorboat her boobs, or eat pancakes off her butt, etc. etc. You get the point.

And I'm completely off topic.

No, it's not okay to lust after women.
"Delete your fvcking sig" -1hard

"primal man had the habit, when he came into contact with fire, of satisfying the infantile desire connected with it, by putting it out with a stream of his urine... Putting out the fire by micturating was therefore a kind of sexual act with a male, an enjoyment of sexual potency in a homosexual competition."
zmikecuber
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12/19/2014 1:13:34 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/19/2014 11:36:37 AM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
Some women desire objectification. By dressing in tops that reveal the top half of their breasts, or short skirts they are basically begging to be objectified. The funniest is when women get pissed at guys for looking at their chests even though they are wearing shirts that reveal cleavage. What do they expect?


Here's a question for you... nearly every top for women out there reveal the shape of their breasts to some degree. Does this mean those women are asking for it too?

What if I were to wear pants that show off the general shape of my junk, even if it doesn't actually show it... is that inviting people to stare at my junk?

Modesty and what constitutes objectification and everything has LOTS of grey areas. We all know what a skankily dressed woman is... but it's hard to define exactly what makes it slutty, and what doesn't... and whether or not it's completely the woman's fault, or partly also the man's fault for having a strong sex drive.

A very very very confusing topic.

At the end of the day, I just encourage women to dress nicely. Don't be ashamed of your body, since the female body IS beautiful, but don't go flaunting it with super low tops or yoga pants that show the shape of your entire bottom half.

Imagine if yoga pants were skin colored.... Yeah. I think we can all agree that if a woman were to walk around without her pants on, she'd be asking for objectification... so why does it make a difference when her skin is black?

In those cases, I think it's okay to objectify women, for the most part they bring it on themselves. I rarely objectify nuns or women wearing ugly sweaters.
"Delete your fvcking sig" -1hard

"primal man had the habit, when he came into contact with fire, of satisfying the infantile desire connected with it, by putting it out with a stream of his urine... Putting out the fire by micturating was therefore a kind of sexual act with a male, an enjoyment of sexual potency in a homosexual competition."
zmikecuber
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12/19/2014 1:17:48 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/19/2014 10:40:06 AM, Mikal wrote:
http://www.debate.org...


I may actually do a debate about it :)

Zaradi caught some flame in a previous thread for semi defending it (from a moral stance). Anyway thoughts?

Is is alright to objectify women in today's society

https://www.youtube.com...
"Delete your fvcking sig" -1hard

"primal man had the habit, when he came into contact with fire, of satisfying the infantile desire connected with it, by putting it out with a stream of his urine... Putting out the fire by micturating was therefore a kind of sexual act with a male, an enjoyment of sexual potency in a homosexual competition."
The_Fool_on_the_hill
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12/19/2014 1:18:11 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Genghis_Khan: unless you're implying that sexual harassment/assault is an extension of lust... it's not.

Vox_Veritas: I'm not talking about harassment or rape.

Genghis_Khan: k good.

Black Knight: Or else WHAT Genghis? Shaming tactics?
http://stream1.gifsoup.com...
<(8O)

Against The Ideologist
<(8D)
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
Blade-of-Truth
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12/19/2014 1:44:57 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/19/2014 1:13:34 PM, zmikecuber wrote:
At 12/19/2014 11:36:37 AM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
Some women desire objectification. By dressing in tops that reveal the top half of their breasts, or short skirts they are basically begging to be objectified. The funniest is when women get pissed at guys for looking at their chests even though they are wearing shirts that reveal cleavage. What do they expect?


Here's a question for you... nearly every top for women out there reveal the shape of their breasts to some degree. Does this mean those women are asking for it too?

Well, there's a difference between revealing the shape of the breasts compared to shirts that reveal the breasts themselves by having cleavage. I don't think necessarily wearing a shirt that reveals the shape is asking for it, but those who wear shirts where there is a good amount of cleavage revealed are.

What if I were to wear pants that show off the general shape of my junk, even if it doesn't actually show it... is that inviting people to stare at my junk?

Depends on the intent. I wear basketball shorts with no underwear which makes the shape and length of my penis pretty visible. I don't mind because I'm good size-wise, but I'm fully aware that if I wore boxers it'd be less revealing. I'm pretty confident that most girls know what they are doing when they wear shirts with large amounts of cleavage or short skirts which leave little to the imagination.

Modesty and what constitutes objectification and everything has LOTS of grey areas. We all know what a skankily dressed woman is... but it's hard to define exactly what makes it slutty, and what doesn't... and whether or not it's completely the woman's fault, or partly also the man's fault for having a strong sex drive.

I'd say both. It's the woman's fault for tempting us, and the man's fault for being so easily tempted to look. For me, breasts are beautiful, I love them, so when I see a girl wearing a shirt that is very revealing of course I'm going to look. I think intent is the dividing line. Although I'm fully aware it's hard to determine someone's intent when you aren't the person yourself.

A very very very confusing topic.

Indubitably.

At the end of the day, I just encourage women to dress nicely. Don't be ashamed of your body, since the female body IS beautiful, but don't go flaunting it with super low tops or yoga pants that show the shape of your entire bottom half.

Yoga pants = camel toe. Another thing I'm highly curious if women are aware of or not. At my college campus, a majority of the lean girls wear them and nearly all of them have camel toe. I find it really hot, but I'm a very sexual being so it might not be the same for everyone else. Above all else though, I appreciate modesty and would choose a woman who dresses nicely over one who dresses in revealing clothing. There needs to be a fine balance where the woman can show off her body without dressing in revealing attire. A nice sun-dress for instance, or even a t-shirt with jeans. Women who have nice bodies don't really need revealing clothing to show it off, I just wish more woman realized this. I definitely have a double-standard between women who are girlfriend material and those who are just simply eye-candy from a distance.

Imagine if yoga pants were skin colored.... Yeah. I think we can all agree that if a woman were to walk around without her pants on, she'd be asking for objectification... so why does it make a difference when her skin is black?

For me it doesn't make a difference with skin color, the camel is revealed no matter what. I think that if a girl puts on yoga pants, she's asking for it unless she wears padding or something. It's the same for guys who free-ball in basketball pants. They're open game for girls to stare at and I can personally attest that girls do so when a guy walks by wearing that. At-least, they do at my university.
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Vox_Veritas
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12/19/2014 2:14:31 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I'd say that in this matter it's more of a woman's fault that she wore the revealing clothing than the man's fault that he had such strong desire.
I mean, men cannot simply snap their fingers and no longer feel sexual desire. Sorry feminists, but it simply doesn't work that way. Men have an inclination towards lust in certain situations, and it takes much self-control to not feel lust. They technically can help it, but it's not easy.
Meanwhile, very little self-control would normally be involved in choosing to not wear a certain kind of clothing. For women it's just what they decided to wear that way. I cannot imagine it being such a big struggle for women to dress modestly. Common sense says it should be easy as pie.
Now, if a woman dresses modestly, and a dude lusts after her anyway, she did nothing (or almost nothing) wrong, but men still did not choose to be that way, so it still isn't really their fault, unless it's hard for them to feel lust for a woman with a certain appearance but they try real hard and manage to feel lust anyway.
My point is, it is a fact of life that men feel lust, and women should not expect to not be objectified if they are wearing whatever the heck they want. Judge both groups, not just men. And please don't revert to accusing me of "blaming the victim", because I am not talking about rape or sexual harassment, but rather sexual thoughts, which is a bleep of a lot harder to deal with than choosing not to rape somebody.
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