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Truth or persuasion

innomen
Posts: 10,052
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5/27/2010 1:38:52 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
I saw on one of these threads that debate is an exercise at finding the truth.

I really don't see that at all. Debate is about superior skills in persuasion and resource utilization. If you have a crappy debater that has truth on their side, and a truly superior debater in opposition, truth is fairly irrelevant in the entire exercise. Those things that we think are true, are usually more the things that make us feel most comfortable, or even superior, whether or not they really are true. We often go to battle when what we hold to be true is challenged because our comfort is being challenged.

hmm?
Rezzealaux
Posts: 2,251
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5/27/2010 1:48:11 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Persuasion. The notion that debate gets to truth is, at least for me, ridiculously naive. Perhaps debate can lead to creative use of or the creation of new logical tools that can be used to get to truth, but those who come to debate mainly because of a search for truth are marching the wrong way. At least, that's my opinion - as a person who came to debate for that very reason.

It's kind of like how war is the mother of invention. "War" is debate. "Invention" is logical tools. Does war lead to invention? Sure. Is war a good way to get inventions?

I would disagree.
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Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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5/27/2010 2:37:15 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Persuasion. You can pursue the truth in debates, but you only do so in order to show your opponent how they're wrong. You want to persuade them, the audience, voters and yourself about the validity of your position - truth or not.
feverish
Posts: 2,716
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5/27/2010 3:11:58 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
A debate is like a game of chess, or a swordfight and I agree that truth is often imaterial to the outcome.

I am however usually much more engaged in a debate and probably argue more persuasively when I am upholding a position I believe is the truth.
innomen
Posts: 10,052
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5/28/2010 8:27:39 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/27/2010 3:11:58 PM, feverish wrote:
A debate is like a game of chess, or a swordfight and I agree that truth is often imaterial to the outcome.

I am however usually much more engaged in a debate and probably argue more persuasively when I am upholding a position I believe is the truth.

How many people would be arguing for something that they believe is not the truth?
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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5/28/2010 8:44:47 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/28/2010 8:27:39 AM, innomen wrote:
How many people would be arguing for something that they believe is not the truth?

People who use mistruths to persuade and lead others astray. Like Satan. Or the GOP leadership.
Marauder
Posts: 3,271
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5/28/2010 10:03:56 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
with an objective mind it is a pursuit of truth. How does one pursue truth among thousands of different opinions? by debate. it is the only way if you ever want to get past the point in a conversation were someone tells you 'that's just your opinion' or 'that's just your garbage two cents'

yes debate can be used for no purpose other than to sharpen your wit and persuasion skills, but it is the sole tool for digging for truth among diverse and contradictory ideas. odds are most people have one thing right in there opinion about truth that you don't. that is the golden two cents you want to collect.
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feverish
Posts: 2,716
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5/28/2010 10:44:46 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/28/2010 8:27:39 AM, innomen wrote:

How many people would be arguing for something that they believe is not the truth?

Quite a few people do it actually. Kleptin recently started a tournament on here where people have to argue the opposite side to a previous debate they performed well in.
DontBeRacist
Posts: 584
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5/28/2010 11:09:59 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/27/2010 1:48:11 PM, Rezzealaux wrote:
Persuasion. The notion that debate gets to truth is, at least for me, ridiculously naive. Perhaps debate can lead to creative use of or the creation of new logical tools that can be used to get to truth, but those who come to debate mainly because of a search for truth are marching the wrong way. At least, that's my opinion - as a person who came to debate for that very reason.

It's kind of like how war is the mother of invention. "War" is debate. "Invention" is logical tools. Does war lead to invention? Sure. Is war a good way to get inventions?

I would disagree.

I like that.
innomen
Posts: 10,052
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5/28/2010 12:50:12 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/28/2010 10:44:46 AM, feverish wrote:
At 5/28/2010 8:27:39 AM, innomen wrote:

How many people would be arguing for something that they believe is not the truth?

Quite a few people do it actually. Kleptin recently started a tournament on here where people have to argue the opposite side to a previous debate they performed well in.

Devil's advocate, that's more of a game, and really helpful when you are working on skills, but that is an exception.
TheSkeptic
Posts: 1,362
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5/28/2010 10:40:10 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
The entire process of academic philosophy centers on debating. Of course, there's other aspects such as peer review and what not, but ultimately the point of a paper is to argue in favor of a thesis. Undoubtedly, someone will come along and disagree with this thesis with probably another paper. You then have a debate.

You guys may come to DDO for other purposes, like simply having fun. I don't see how having fun and finding the truth are mutually exclusive, as that is my main goal for being here :)
Korashk
Posts: 4,597
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6/9/2010 9:12:29 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Bump.......
When large numbers of otherwise-law abiding people break specific laws en masse, it's usually a fault that lies with the law. - Unknown
Truth_seeker
Posts: 1,811
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8/4/2014 9:46:39 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/27/2010 1:38:52 PM, innomen wrote:
I saw on one of these threads that debate is an exercise at finding the truth.

I really don't see that at all. Debate is about superior skills in persuasion and resource utilization. If you have a crappy debater that has truth on their side, and a truly superior debater in opposition, truth is fairly irrelevant in the entire exercise. Those things that we think are true, are usually more the things that make us feel most comfortable, or even superior, whether or not they really are true. We often go to battle when what we hold to be true is challenged because our comfort is being challenged.

hmm?

I think Truth is more important. While i do use logic and creative reason, i think the power comes from posting the undeniable truth. With logic, you can just keep arguing, but Truth settles everything.
PotBelliedGeek
Posts: 4,298
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8/4/2014 9:49:20 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/4/2014 9:46:39 AM, Truth_seeker wrote:
At 5/27/2010 1:38:52 PM, innomen wrote:
I saw on one of these threads that debate is an exercise at finding the truth.

I really don't see that at all. Debate is about superior skills in persuasion and resource utilization. If you have a crappy debater that has truth on their side, and a truly superior debater in opposition, truth is fairly irrelevant in the entire exercise. Those things that we think are true, are usually more the things that make us feel most comfortable, or even superior, whether or not they really are true. We often go to battle when what we hold to be true is challenged because our comfort is being challenged.

hmm?

I think Truth is more important. While i do use logic and creative reason, i think the power comes from posting the undeniable truth. With logic, you can just keep arguing, but Truth settles everything.

Seriously, you need to stop necroposting.
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thett3
Posts: 14,344
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8/4/2014 9:51:14 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/4/2014 9:49:20 AM, PotBelliedGeek wrote:
At 8/4/2014 9:46:39 AM, Truth_seeker wrote:
At 5/27/2010 1:38:52 PM, innomen wrote:
I saw on one of these threads that debate is an exercise at finding the truth.

I really don't see that at all. Debate is about superior skills in persuasion and resource utilization. If you have a crappy debater that has truth on their side, and a truly superior debater in opposition, truth is fairly irrelevant in the entire exercise. Those things that we think are true, are usually more the things that make us feel most comfortable, or even superior, whether or not they really are true. We often go to battle when what we hold to be true is challenged because our comfort is being challenged.

hmm?

I think Truth is more important. While i do use logic and creative reason, i think the power comes from posting the undeniable truth. With logic, you can just keep arguing, but Truth settles everything.

Seriously, you need to stop necroposting.
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