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Fixing the Damage

Beastt
Posts: 5,135
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12/29/2014 9:14:12 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I think most of those who frequent the Religion Forum are aware of the recent destruction done to what little harmony it may have held. With the recent election has come new challenges and a sadness which should be shared across the site. So the next step is to decide what should be done but I don't wish to try to speak for everyone. Apparently, this is one potential course of action.

THE DDO IMPEACHMENT PROCESS

- airmax1227 wrote:
-- "If a member feels that the current president should be removed from office, they will contact the election moderator who will then investigate the claims and begin the impeachment process if deemed legitimate. This process will involve posting a thread asking members if they support removing the president from office. Members will then vote YES or NO to remove the president from office. Voting requirements will be the same as in presidential elections.

The number of YES votes required to successfully remove the president will be half the number of total votes from the election that put that president into office, rounded down to the nearest whole vote.

For example, the previous election had a total of 49 votes. To remove the current president from office it would require 24 YES votes to successfully do so.

Following a successful removal from office, the election moderator will post a special election to elect a new president one week following the placement of the deciding vote. The vice president (unless implicated as well, and then also removed from office with the president) will automatically be included in this special election unless they explicitly opt out by contacting the election moderator.

This special election will elect a president who will hold that office until the term of the removed president would have ended."

---

I don't wish to initiate a stressful rehashing of all of the events, attacks, and attempts for political conquest but for those unfamiliar, I will paste just a few of the statements which have brought us to this regrettable position.

--- --- ---
A RECAP OF STATEMENTS FROM THE DDO PRESIDENT HIMSELF

"Laws are in place to be obeyed, whether people like them or not is a non factor."
(So in his eyes, rules matter and people don't matter. He doesn't understand that rules are supposed to serve the people.)

"I really don't care if I lost respect for calling someone out on behaving immaturely and to the point of verbally harassing over 10 members."
(The job of the President is to represent the people. This president states that he doesn't care whether or not people respect his actions. He acts for his own benefit, not ours.)

"He broke the rules, and continues to break them without remorse. So no, I have no sympathy or care for what people think about it."
(Once again, he cares about the rules, and couldn't care less about people.)

"Everyone else on the site is held to the same criteria, as he [bulproof] will be"
And yet, we find his #1 supporter and right-hand man (Wylted), flagrantly posting;
- "She has a vagina, I don't refer to her as a vagina. I don't fvck women, I fvck their Vaginas."
- "But I do fvck pvssies. Not as frequently and as many as I'd like but it does happen.")
... as only a small sample.

And I've yet to see Mikal offer a single public recommendation that any action be taken against Wylted while continuing to pursue a campaign directed specifically at other members. This is despite being urged to do so on multiple accounts. So it's quite clear that he considers his friends to be immune to the same TOS rules which he claims are more important than the people of the forum.

http://www.debate.org.........
Post #83

--- --- ---

I'd like to encourge some input in regard to this matter (preferably in a mature and respectful manner), which might shed light on the thoughts and feelings of the members of the forum?

Thank you.
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
bossyburrito
Posts: 14,075
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12/29/2014 9:18:42 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
This is the source for the quote from Airmax: http://www.debate.org...

The system was never implemented, making the quote irrelevant and meaningless.
#UnbanTheMadman

"Some will sell their dreams for small desires
Or lose the race to rats
Get caught in ticking traps
And start to dream of somewhere
To relax their restless flight
Somewhere out of a memory of lighted streets on quiet nights..."

~ Rush
Garbanza
Posts: 1,997
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12/29/2014 9:22:48 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/29/2014 9:18:42 PM, bossyburrito wrote:
This is the source for the quote from Airmax: http://www.debate.org...

The system was never implemented, making the quote irrelevant and meaningless.

How do you mean? Airmax said it did.

http://www.debate.org...
wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
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12/29/2014 9:25:20 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/29/2014 9:14:12 PM, Beastt wrote:

THE DDO IMPEACHMENT PROCESS

- airmax1227 wrote:
-- "If a member feels that the current president should be removed from office,

I'm much more for removing the office itself. It's meaningless and gives a false impression of empowerment.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
Garbanza
Posts: 1,997
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12/29/2014 9:25:29 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I think it would be better to just try and ignore Mikal and wylted. Before the election they were just a pair of trolls and they still are. I don't think we can get the votes to remove him from office because there were a LOT of votes, but the presidency only has the power we let it.
dtaylor971
Posts: 1,907
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12/29/2014 9:26:37 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
The election is over. Stop being butthurt. Mikal has not downgraded the quality of the site in any way via his presidential powers.
"I don't know why gays want to marry, I have spent the last 25 years wishing I wasn't allowed to." -Sadolite
Beastt
Posts: 5,135
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12/29/2014 9:27:09 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/29/2014 9:25:20 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 12/29/2014 9:14:12 PM, Beastt wrote:

THE DDO IMPEACHMENT PROCESS

- airmax1227 wrote:
-- "If a member feels that the current president should be removed from office,

I'm much more for removing the office itself. It's meaningless and gives a false impression of empowerment.

If there is a way to do that, I'm not at all opposed to exploring that as a potentially better option. That said, I'm not aware of any such turmoil in regard to the former president so I'm not sure which option would be best.
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
Beastt
Posts: 5,135
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12/29/2014 9:30:28 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/29/2014 9:18:42 PM, bossyburrito wrote:
This is the source for the quote from Airmax: http://www.debate.org...

The system was never implemented, making the quote irrelevant and meaningless.

My impression (and I may be wrong), is that it's still in the process of being implemented. If I'm in error, I apologize. But that doesn't fix the problem. And fixing the problem is the only goal. But first I want to assure that this represents the majority of the members (preferably, a vast majority). The fewer feathers ruffled, the better.
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
DarthVitiosus
Posts: 624
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12/29/2014 9:30:54 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I disagree. Most of people commenting don't like Mikal clearly. Sure some may dislike the president's actions but I don't think the president violated the Terms of Use from what I observed.

I find what the president has been doing to be highly entertaining but it certainly is not productive. There are better ways to go about doing things but I don't get paid anything so I have no intention on elaborating on those.
WILL NOT BE REMOVED UNTIL:
#1. I have met 10 people worth discussing with on DDO who are not interested in ideological or romantic visions of the world we all live in.
#2. 10 people admit they have no interest in any one else's opinion other than their own.
#3. 10 people admit they are products of their environment and their ideas derive from said environment rather than doing any serious critical thinking and search for answers themselves.
16kadams
Posts: 10,497
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12/29/2014 9:31:04 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/29/2014 9:26:37 PM, dtaylor971 wrote:
The election is over. Stop being butthurt. Mikal has not downgraded the quality of the site in any way via his presidential powers.

^^^^^^

Seriously everyone get the fvck over it who cares anyway
https://www.youtube.com...
https://rekonomics.wordpress.com...
"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
headphonegut
Posts: 4,122
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12/29/2014 9:32:00 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/29/2014 9:26:37 PM, dtaylor971 wrote:
The election is over. Stop being butthurt. Mikal has not downgraded the quality of the site in any way via his presidential powers.

His point was not that Mikal was president, but that as president he is giving favor to those he deems worthy. favor being unwillingness to hold friends to some standard under the tos. It's all rather silly since Mikal has no say in who gets banned tho. I reported the thread and encourage all to do the same. Since the point is moot.
crying to soldiers coming home to their dogs why do I torment myself with these videos?
bossyburrito
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12/29/2014 9:32:02 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/29/2014 9:22:48 PM, Garbanza wrote:
At 12/29/2014 9:18:42 PM, bossyburrito wrote:
This is the source for the quote from Airmax: http://www.debate.org...

The system was never implemented, making the quote irrelevant and meaningless.

How do you mean? Airmax said it did.

http://www.debate.org...

My bad, you're right - though the exact quote used is still outdated - things have changed since then, Ore_Ele is no longer a moderator, etc, and I would much prefer Max issue an official updated statement rather than using something he said two years ago as law.
#UnbanTheMadman

"Some will sell their dreams for small desires
Or lose the race to rats
Get caught in ticking traps
And start to dream of somewhere
To relax their restless flight
Somewhere out of a memory of lighted streets on quiet nights..."

~ Rush
wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
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12/29/2014 9:32:08 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/29/2014 9:27:09 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 12/29/2014 9:25:20 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 12/29/2014 9:14:12 PM, Beastt wrote:

THE DDO IMPEACHMENT PROCESS

- airmax1227 wrote:
-- "If a member feels that the current president should be removed from office,

I'm much more for removing the office itself. It's meaningless and gives a false impression of empowerment.

If there is a way to do that, I'm not at all opposed to exploring that as a potentially better option. That said, I'm not aware of any such turmoil in regard to the former president so I'm not sure which option would be best.

From what I know, bladerunner said his term as president was ineffectual as the job entails liaising with Juggle, and Juggle has ceased development of this website "until further notice" or some similar statement. IMHO such a job should be something handled by Juggle corporate by a qualified customer service rep. In that sense, such informal positions signal that this website has been a bad investment of resources on their part.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
YYW
Posts: 36,282
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12/29/2014 9:33:18 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/29/2014 9:14:12 PM, Beastt wrote:
I think most of those who frequent the Religion Forum are aware of the recent destruction done to what little harmony it may have held. With the recent election has come new challenges and a sadness which should be shared across the site. So the next step is to decide what should be done but I don't wish to try to speak for everyone. Apparently, this is one potential course of action.

This might be an interesting thread, if it were contextually appropriate. the problem is that it's not. We know that Mikal is not a member with a spotless past. With the possible exception of Whiteflame and Cermank, I don't think there is a single member on DDO who has never had a conflict with another member where moderator action would have been justified. That's not to say that I agree with everything that Mikal's ever done, so much as it is to emphasize that your concerns here are misplaced and your efforts are misguided.

Right now, what DDO needs is people who are going to be leaders. Leadership isn't a position, it's an activity -and what I'm seeing here is not leadership. It's antagonism wearing a mask of feigned concern for the site's wellbeing. If you believe that there is something wrong with DDO, then being the change you want to see in DDO will get you a lot further than complaining about what you cannot change.
Tsar of DDO
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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12/29/2014 9:34:04 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
So how many votes to impeach Mikal? Like 100 at least?

screw it

Vote to Impeach MIkal and make Imabench the president
1harderthanyouthink
Posts: 13,102
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12/29/2014 9:35:08 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
You're pissing into the wind for a non-problem (the President).
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

-Syd Barrett

DDO Risk King
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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12/29/2014 9:37:26 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/29/2014 9:14:12 PM, Beastt wrote:
I think most of those who frequent the Religion Forum are aware of the recent destruction done to what little harmony it may have held. With the recent election has come new challenges and a sadness which should be shared across the site. So the next step is to decide what should be done but I don't wish to try to speak for everyone. Apparently, this is one potential course of action.

THE DDO IMPEACHMENT PROCESS

- airmax1227 wrote:
-- "If a member feels that the current president should be removed from office, they will contact the election moderator who will then investigate the claims and begin the impeachment process if deemed legitimate. This process will involve posting a thread asking members if they support removing the president from office. Members will then vote YES or NO to remove the president from office. Voting requirements will be the same as in presidential elections.

The number of YES votes required to successfully remove the president will be half the number of total votes from the election that put that president into office, rounded down to the nearest whole vote.

For example, the previous election had a total of 49 votes. To remove the current president from office it would require 24 YES votes to successfully do so.

Following a successful removal from office, the election moderator will post a special election to elect a new president one week following the placement of the deciding vote. The vice president (unless implicated as well, and then also removed from office with the president) will automatically be included in this special election unless they explicitly opt out by contacting the election moderator.

This special election will elect a president who will hold that office until the term of the removed president would have ended."

---

I don't wish to initiate a stressful rehashing of all of the events, attacks, and attempts for political conquest but for those unfamiliar, I will paste just a few of the statements which have brought us to this regrettable position.

--- --- ---
A RECAP OF STATEMENTS FROM THE DDO PRESIDENT HIMSELF

"Laws are in place to be obeyed, whether people like them or not is a non factor."
(So in his eyes, rules matter and people don't matter. He doesn't understand that rules are supposed to serve the people.)


"I really don't care if I lost respect for calling someone out on behaving immaturely and to the point of verbally harassing over 10 members."
(The job of the President is to represent the people. This president states that he doesn't care whether or not people respect his actions. He acts for his own benefit, not ours.)

"He broke the rules, and continues to break them without remorse. So no, I have no sympathy or care for what people think about it."
(Once again, he cares about the rules, and couldn't care less about people.)

"Everyone else on the site is held to the same criteria, as he [bulproof] will be"
And yet, we find his #1 supporter and right-hand man (Wylted), flagrantly posting;
- "She has a vagina, I don't refer to her as a vagina. I don't fvck women, I fvck their Vaginas."
- "But I do fvck pvssies. Not as frequently and as many as I'd like but it does happen.")
... as only a small sample.

And I've yet to see Mikal offer a single public recommendation that any action be taken against Wylted while continuing to pursue a campaign directed specifically at other members. This is despite being urged to do so on multiple accounts. So it's quite clear that he considers his friends to be immune to the same TOS rules which he claims are more important than the people of the forum.

http://www.debate.org.........
Post #83

--- --- ---

I'd like to encourge some input in regard to this matter (preferably in a mature and respectful manner), which might shed light on the thoughts and feelings of the members of the forum?

Thank you.

Congrats on having a thread inducted into the next Hall Of Fame.
Beastt
Posts: 5,135
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12/29/2014 9:47:50 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/29/2014 9:30:54 PM, DarthVitiosus wrote:
I disagree. Most of people commenting don't like Mikal clearly. Sure some may dislike the president's actions but I don't think the president violated the Terms of Use from what I observed.

I find what the president has been doing to be highly entertaining but it certainly is not productive. There are better ways to go about doing things but I don't get paid anything so I have no intention on elaborating on those.

I don't think TOU violations by Mikal are at issue here and I've not alleged any such misconduct. I agree that his actions have caused an undue degree of stress, anxiety and difficulty, especially in the Religion Forum. I would go so far as to suggest that it has been counter-productive.

The question would be; is that the position of the majority, or just the vocal majority? And if it is (as I suspect), the majority opinion, what action is deemed to be best?
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
jodybirdy
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12/29/2014 9:52:25 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I've watched this entire thing from the beginning. It was childish and it was executed in a very unprofessional way. And not at all what I would expect from the president of a forum. It was done with utter disregard and complete disrespect for our moderators as well.

I believe something needs to happen to right these wrongs, but I'm torn as to what should happen that would be best for DDO.
A rock pile ceases to be a rock pile the moment a single man contemplates it, bearing within him the image of a cathedral."
PetersSmith
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12/29/2014 9:54:51 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I think we need to create some sort of a bureaucracy where there are multiple moderators for each section of this site, rather than a president and one main mod (who has apparently appointed two other mods since the election). Thus, it would be easier to crack down and keep order and listen to people's complaints to specific topics.
Empress of DDO (also Poll and Forum "Maintenance" Moderator)

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Guide to the Polls Section: http://www.debate.org...
DarthVitiosus
Posts: 624
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12/29/2014 10:03:06 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/29/2014 9:47:50 PM, Beastt wrote:

I don't think TOU violations by Mikal are at issue here and I've not alleged any such misconduct. I agree that his actions have caused an undue degree of stress, anxiety and difficulty, especially in the Religion Forum. I would go so far as to suggest that it has been counter-productive.

The question would be; is that the position of the majority, or just the vocal majority? And if it is (as I suspect), the majority opinion, what action is deemed to be best?

I don't believe majority agree with impeachment. It is a certain type of person that is attracted to reading this type of thread. Very few of the posters are neutral on the president.
WILL NOT BE REMOVED UNTIL:
#1. I have met 10 people worth discussing with on DDO who are not interested in ideological or romantic visions of the world we all live in.
#2. 10 people admit they have no interest in any one else's opinion other than their own.
#3. 10 people admit they are products of their environment and their ideas derive from said environment rather than doing any serious critical thinking and search for answers themselves.
airmax1227
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12/29/2014 10:03:51 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
This was a proposed system that was never implemented. It didn't gain any traction since most didn't seem to see the point.

I did believe the idea had merit at the time and I still do. However, there still remains no impeachment process - and this was certainly not a perfect system.

I am continuing to work with others on general election reform that revolve mostly on election voting criteria, but much of that has branched into other areas and I do see value in making a system that eventually takes into account all possibilities and allows flexibility and legitimacy in making future changes. This is however a major project and will take some time.

In the meantime, I am sympathetic to those who have an issue significant enough that makes them want such a system to exists. I'm also sympathetic to those who just want to see all the drama of this type go away. I hope I can do what I can to better make that happen, and that all of the relevant individuals will understand that and do so as well.
Debate.org Moderator
TUF
Posts: 21,309
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12/29/2014 10:15:38 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Many of Mikal's voters were aware of how he was before voting for him. Not sure you could get the votes to impeach him, even despite the outrage at his behavior.

But to those of you saying that the presidency doesn't matter, or should be revoked, you may have the answer. Just treat him as a normal member, if he has the same user powers as one. A title is just a title, and as long as Juggle isn't present, the only power a president holds is the power you give him over your experience on the site.

That said, I don't know why there was any shock over anything that has happened since he gained office.

I don't think mikal has actually done anything to harm the site yet. If he wasn't the president, I am not sure some of the events concerning things that have happened in the last few weeks wouldn't be an issue. This just shows that perception really is everything. Perception about what a president should be doing, and drawing assumptions about what is actually happening out of that perception. It's easy to complain and find someone to blame. That's what real life presidents are for too. It feels better to point the finger and be angry, rather than try to understand something from a different perspective.

That perspective should be, if you don't think there is need for a president, act as if one doesn't exist. Or at the very least, don't let it ruin your perception of the site. Or be the president yourself, and take steps to fix it yourself. You have just as much user ability as he does.
"I've got to go and grab a shirt" ~ Airmax1227
Beastt
Posts: 5,135
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12/29/2014 10:26:00 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/29/2014 9:32:00 PM, headphonegut wrote:
At 12/29/2014 9:26:37 PM, dtaylor971 wrote:
The election is over. Stop being butthurt. Mikal has not downgraded the quality of the site in any way via his presidential powers.

His point was not that Mikal was president, but that as president he is giving favor to those he deems worthy. favor being unwillingness to hold friends to some standard under the tos. It's all rather silly since Mikal has no say in who gets banned tho. I reported the thread and encourage all to do the same. Since the point is moot.

Thank you for clarifying my point concerning the behaviors I'm referencing. It has been confirmed that the impeachment process was never implemented so, I contacted a Mod myself and asked that they delete this thread IF they believe it to be - in any way - problematic.

I don't think it does any harm to seek a broad spectrum of opinions.
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
Bullish
Posts: 3,527
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12/29/2014 10:27:51 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
The problem is that the Religion Forum has been chosen for the selective enforcement of the easily-abused TOU. The reason for this choice is due in part to the volatility of the Forum itself, but is also not possible without the public mandate given to Mikal, and the legitimacy Mikal's words give to non-basic moderator action.

So, TOU, public mandate, presidential mandate, and moderator discretion are the chain of factors here.

I want the TOU to be addressed.
0x5f3759df
lannan13
Posts: 23,029
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12/29/2014 10:31:35 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/29/2014 9:25:05 PM, Wylted wrote:
sig change

What sig?
-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-Lannan13'S SIGNATURE-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-

If the sky's the limit then why do we have footprints on the Moon? I'm shooting my aspirations for the stars.

"If you are going through hell, keep going." "Sir Winston Churchill

"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." "Eleanor Roosevelt

Topics I want to debate. (http://tinyurl.com...)
-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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12/29/2014 10:33:10 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/29/2014 10:31:35 PM, lannan13 wrote:
At 12/29/2014 9:25:05 PM, Wylted wrote:
sig change

What sig?

My quotes in the op, but then I changed my mind because it seems egotistical to put my own quotes in my sig.
YamaVonKarma
Posts: 7,570
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12/29/2014 10:42:23 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Jesus. You people need to calm the f**k down, and get laid.

Mikal, I appreciate you at least trying to keep your promise and follow through with it. And I think you'll make a swell president. But the amount of immaturity on this site proves that it cannot handle a president. Frankly, I do not think you or anyone needs this stress in their lives and to serve these unworthy people.

I move that after Mikal's term is up, the DDO presidency be abolished.

Let's see them argue with someone who actually has power here, Juggle and the Mods. Oh and regarding the mods. You can all b***h about the forum and changes all you like but at the end of the day, it really doesn't matter what you think. The Mods can do what they want. You do not have "rights" here, you are a guest and if you do not like how the site is changing, leave. I can guarantee that I will not weep from you leaving and the site likely will be better as a whole.
People who I've called as mafia DP1:
TUF, and YYW
YamaVonKarma
Posts: 7,570
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12/29/2014 10:43:56 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Man, I hate going into stereotypical German yelling mode.

Rant, end.
People who I've called as mafia DP1:
TUF, and YYW