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How many members have actual debating exp.

Tskuvaliu
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1/6/2015 4:23:47 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Very curious. I do not see much resembling actual life format here? The judgments seem sub par to what you would expect in a debate? Why do people judge by BOP? The word is never mentioned often. Judging is not weighing on a scale. What up with everyone's weird debate style?What happened to speech debate? Why is there no narrative? Why do debates I read like persuasive essays and reports and not like a debate? Where is the formality? Debate terminology? Repetition? Rhetoric? Literary esque faux?

Is this a debate site, because the forum is telling me something completely different? Please help me understand. Is there an expierienced, aspiring, or even enthusiastic community here dedicated to good and what I would title actual debate?

Does not matter that debates are written down , but why do they feel like they are something other than debates?
Ragnar
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1/6/2015 4:46:07 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Didferent medium, thus different form. Link for more information is in my signature.
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Daltonian
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1/6/2015 4:52:36 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I do Model United Nations, which involves (forms of) debating. I guess you could count that as IRL debating experience.

Not very similar to the type of stuff that takes place here, though.
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Tskuvaliu
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1/6/2015 5:29:29 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/6/2015 4:46:07 PM, Ragnar wrote:
Didferent medium, thus different form. Link for more information is in my signature.
I see no reason why it has to be. What incentive do I have to do a debate, if my opponent will respond like it is not an actual debate? Why does judging by bop, something that would never happen in front of any panel take place!? Medium does not matter. This is debate warped into something else.
Tskuvaliu
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1/6/2015 5:38:11 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Debates are treated like a pitting of two intelligent reports and studies. Real debating is done much more like ancient Athenian democracy. The end goal is not to prove you are more right than your opponent. It is to be more persuasive and convincing.

How many people here watch debates? It is not like debate.org where people have written debates. Many forums also organize them, and stay true to the concept. I have not seen really any debaters thats argument could stand against a trained opponent.

Who are the people considered good here?
Tskuvaliu
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1/6/2015 5:42:45 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/6/2015 4:52:36 PM, Daltonian wrote:
I do Model United Nations, which involves (forms of) debating. I guess you could count that as IRL debating experience.

Not very similar to the type of stuff that takes place here, though.
Aye, UN model debate would be an intresting format to replicate online. Do they have Lincoin-Douglas, Policy, or AP capabilities here
thett3
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1/6/2015 5:48:42 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
If I had to guess, I'd say no more than 10%
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: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
Tskuvaliu
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1/6/2015 5:52:46 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/6/2015 5:48:42 PM, thett3 wrote:
If I had to guess, I'd say no more than 10%
Do they have no weight in this sites debating meta?
Blade-of-Truth
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1/6/2015 5:56:33 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I don't have much formal experience, but I did win a few local tournaments in highschool while on the debate team for Student Congress. It's a lazier branch of debating when compared to PF, LD, or Policy but one that I found extremely fun!
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Raisor
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1/6/2015 5:59:28 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/6/2015 5:52:46 PM, Tskuvaliu wrote:
At 1/6/2015 5:48:42 PM, thett3 wrote:
If I had to guess, I'd say no more than 10%
Do they have no weight in this sites debating meta?

We try but so much of the site is dominated by people without experience.

Recently there was a high profile debate that involved theory/topicality over a term in the resolution, most of the ballots said they didn't get it or ignored it.

Worse is the tendency for judges to ignore arguments they don't personally agree with. One side will drop a major argument that outweighs everything in round and the judges will either not notice or decide to ignore it. Then there are judges who will make up their own arguments against debaters in the rfd.

It's gotten a little better where there are high profile users that are sought out for their good judging ability. These tend to have formal debate background.
Tskuvaliu
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1/6/2015 6:01:59 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/6/2015 5:53:52 PM, Unitomic wrote:
Is it lonely, TSkuvaliu, up on your pedastal?

I make do. Care to join me?
Tskuvaliu
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1/6/2015 6:04:13 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/6/2015 5:56:33 PM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
I don't have much formal experience, but I did win a few local tournaments in highschool while on the debate team for Student Congress. It's a lazier branch of debating when compared to PF, LD, or Policy but one that I found extremely fun!

That is the spirit I hoped to discover here!
Tskuvaliu
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1/6/2015 6:07:09 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/6/2015 5:59:28 PM, Raisor wrote:
At 1/6/2015 5:52:46 PM, Tskuvaliu wrote:
At 1/6/2015 5:48:42 PM, thett3 wrote:
If I had to guess, I'd say no more than 10%
Do they have no weight in this sites debating meta?

We try but so much of the site is dominated by people without experience.

Recently there was a high profile debate that involved theory/topicality over a term in the resolution, most of the ballots said they didn't get it or ignored it.

Worse is the tendency for judges to ignore arguments they don't personally agree with. One side will drop a major argument that outweighs everything in round and the judges will either not notice or decide to ignore it. Then there are judges who will make up their own arguments against debaters in the rfd.

It's gotten a little better where there are high profile users that are sought out for their good judging ability. These tend to have formal debate background.

Aye! I also took notice how one can lose a debate here without a tidy list of rebuttals. Goes back to this obcession with bop that is brutally annoying me about this site
Unitomic
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1/6/2015 6:07:49 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/6/2015 6:01:59 PM, Tskuvaliu wrote:
At 1/6/2015 5:53:52 PM, Unitomic wrote:
Is it lonely, TSkuvaliu, up on your pedastal?

I make do. Care to join me?

I have my own pedastal to tend to. quite high up. I'm clearly the best debater here
Tskuvaliu
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1/6/2015 6:09:29 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/6/2015 6:07:49 PM, Unitomic wrote:
At 1/6/2015 6:01:59 PM, Tskuvaliu wrote:
At 1/6/2015 5:53:52 PM, Unitomic wrote:
Is it lonely, TSkuvaliu, up on your pedastal?

I make do. Care to join me?

I have my own pedastal to tend to. quite high up. I'm clearly the best debater here

Really now. Maybe I can test the water with you some other time.
bsh1
Posts: 27,503
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1/6/2015 6:38:51 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I know I do and a few others do as well...but I am not sure what portion of active users they comprise. Perhaps 15-20%...
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Raisor
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1/6/2015 6:52:29 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/6/2015 6:38:51 PM, bsh1 wrote:
I know I do and a few others do as well...but I am not sure what portion of active users they comprise. Perhaps 15-20%...

I'd guess with thett less than 10 percent. Consider the non forum users espeially
bsh1
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1/6/2015 7:01:20 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/6/2015 6:52:29 PM, Raisor wrote:
At 1/6/2015 6:38:51 PM, bsh1 wrote:
I know I do and a few others do as well...but I am not sure what portion of active users they comprise. Perhaps 15-20%...

I'd guess with thett less than 10 percent. Consider the non forum users espeially

I guess that's a fair estimate. It would be cool to know exactly.
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bluesteel
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1/6/2015 10:38:54 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/6/2015 5:38:11 PM, Tskuvaliu wrote:
Debates are treated like a pitting of two intelligent reports and studies. Real debating is done much more like ancient Athenian democracy. The end goal is not to prove you are more right than your opponent. It is to be more persuasive and convincing.

How many people here watch debates? It is not like debate.org where people have written debates. Many forums also organize them, and stay true to the concept. I have not seen really any debaters thats argument could stand against a trained opponent.

Who are the people considered good here?

Estimating a percentage isn't worthwhile because it depends on how you define the "membership" of DDO, which is in dispute. We have about 10 users with formal debate training in LD, policy, PF, or parli. There are about 200 unique users per day. So that's 5%.

I assume what you really want to know is who has formal debate training on here:

me (bluesteel)
raisor
thett3
debatability
zaradi
whiteflame
larztheloser
YYW
bsh1

I think bladerunner060 does as well, but I'm not sure.

You can set all your debates to be judge voting so that only people you think are good judges can vote on your debates. I recommend you do that.

I also think that Maikuru and Danielle are amazing debaters and good judges, even though they were not formally trained. Their abilities are the same as top notch people with formal training.
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donald.keller
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1/6/2015 10:50:21 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/6/2015 5:29:29 PM, Tskuvaliu wrote:
At 1/6/2015 4:46:07 PM, Ragnar wrote:
Didferent medium, thus different form. Link for more information is in my signature.
I see no reason why it has to be. What incentive do I have to do a debate, if my opponent will respond like it is not an actual debate? Why does judging by bop, something that would never happen in front of any panel take place!? Medium does not matter. This is debate warped into something else.

A few reasons: Character limit. You can't fit a whole speech in there, so you fit an essay instead.

BOP is important. If we are discussing a toaster in space, I need not prove it doesn't exists. Only the person claiming it exist needs to prove anything. I just need to make sure the prove doesn't stand to scrutiny. I'm not sure what debates you watch, but Burden of Prove is vital, but not every side has the same amount of it.

And I'm sorry.... I don't recall only you got to decide what counts as normal debate. Last I checked, there are many types of debates, and ours is just one of those many. Even real life debates have many different forms.
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thett3
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1/6/2015 10:52:23 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/6/2015 10:50:21 PM, donald.keller wrote:
At 1/6/2015 5:29:29 PM, Tskuvaliu wrote:
At 1/6/2015 4:46:07 PM, Ragnar wrote:
Didferent medium, thus different form. Link for more information is in my signature.
I see no reason why it has to be. What incentive do I have to do a debate, if my opponent will respond like it is not an actual debate? Why does judging by bop, something that would never happen in front of any panel take place!? Medium does not matter. This is debate warped into something else.

A few reasons: Character limit. You can't fit a whole speech in there, so you fit an essay instead.

LOL, RL debate speeches have limited time too. And unlike DDO the speeches decrease in length so the debater is forced to choose which arguments to prioritize....that's the biggest problem with the DDO debating system.

BOP is important. If we are discussing a toaster in space, I need not prove it doesn't exists. Only the person claiming it exist needs to prove anything. I just need to make sure the prove doesn't stand to scrutiny. I'm not sure what debates you watch, but Burden of Prove is vital, but not every side has the same amount of it.

And I'm sorry.... I don't recall only you got to decide what counts as normal debate. Last I checked, there are many types of debates, and ours is just one of those many. Even real life debates have many different forms.
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: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
donald.keller
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1/6/2015 11:03:04 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/6/2015 10:52:23 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 1/6/2015 10:50:21 PM, donald.keller wrote:
At 1/6/2015 5:29:29 PM, Tskuvaliu wrote:
At 1/6/2015 4:46:07 PM, Ragnar wrote:
Didferent medium, thus different form. Link for more information is in my signature.
I see no reason why it has to be. What incentive do I have to do a debate, if my opponent will respond like it is not an actual debate? Why does judging by bop, something that would never happen in front of any panel take place!? Medium does not matter. This is debate warped into something else.

A few reasons: Character limit. You can't fit a whole speech in there, so you fit an essay instead.

LOL, RL debate speeches have limited time too. And unlike DDO the speeches decrease in length so the debater is forced to choose which arguments to prioritize....that's the biggest problem with the DDO debating system.

Character limits work the same way, since as the debate goes on, more arguments are put in to need refuting. What started as 5k characters in R1, becomes 7k in R2, 10k in R3... and so on. You have more the fit in as you keep adding new things to your side and your opponent does the same. And here, you have a chance to add to a round over time. How many times do you find yourself looking over the debate, and adding a lot of stuff you didn't think to add the first time around? This increases the size of an Argument by quite a bit. I usually add around 1k in stuff while proofreading.

BOP is important. If we are discussing a toaster in space, I need not prove it doesn't exists. Only the person claiming it exist needs to prove anything. I just need to make sure the prove doesn't stand to scrutiny. I'm not sure what debates you watch, but Burden of Prove is vital, but not every side has the same amount of it.

And I'm sorry.... I don't recall only you got to decide what counts as normal debate. Last I checked, there are many types of debates, and ours is just one of those many. Even real life debates have many different forms.
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That1User
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1/6/2015 11:06:14 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/6/2015 4:23:47 PM, Tskuvaliu wrote:
Very curious. I do not see much resembling actual life format here? The judgments seem sub par to what you would expect in a debate? Why do people judge by BOP? The word is never mentioned often. Judging is not weighing on a scale. What up with everyone's weird debate style?What happened to speech debate? Why is there no narrative? Why do debates I read like persuasive essays and reports and not like a debate? Where is the formality? Debate terminology? Repetition? Rhetoric? Literary esque faux?

Is this a debate site, because the forum is telling me something completely different? Please help me understand. Is there an expierienced, aspiring, or even enthusiastic community here dedicated to good and what I would title actual debate?

Does not matter that debates are written down , but why do they feel like they are something other than debates?

Does one debate regarding the NSA (I was assigned pro) in AP English class count as formal debate? I think it would be semi-formal, since the rules were not strictly followed. I was assigned rebuttals, and I pointed out a slippery slope fallacy from con, which made con lose and pro win. If anything, spending so much time on DDO helped me with that debate. If only we had more debate assignments...
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thett3
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1/6/2015 11:06:40 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/6/2015 11:03:04 PM, donald.keller wrote:
At 1/6/2015 10:52:23 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 1/6/2015 10:50:21 PM, donald.keller wrote:
At 1/6/2015 5:29:29 PM, Tskuvaliu wrote:
At 1/6/2015 4:46:07 PM, Ragnar wrote:
Didferent medium, thus different form. Link for more information is in my signature.
I see no reason why it has to be. What incentive do I have to do a debate, if my opponent will respond like it is not an actual debate? Why does judging by bop, something that would never happen in front of any panel take place!? Medium does not matter. This is debate warped into something else.

A few reasons: Character limit. You can't fit a whole speech in there, so you fit an essay instead.

LOL, RL debate speeches have limited time too. And unlike DDO the speeches decrease in length so the debater is forced to choose which arguments to prioritize....that's the biggest problem with the DDO debating system.

Character limits work the same way, since as the debate goes on, more arguments are put in to need refuting. What started as 5k characters in R1, becomes 7k in R2, 10k in R3... and so on. You have more the fit in as you keep adding new things to your side and your opponent does the same. And here, you have a chance to add to a round over time. How many times do you find yourself looking over the debate, and adding a lot of stuff you didn't think to add the first time around? This increases the size of an Argument by quite a bit. I usually add around 1k in stuff while proofreading.

Literally everything except the proofreading part happens in real world debate too--you just have to deal with it, and deal with shrinking speeches. Not knowing how to weigh arguments is the #1 flaw with the judging on DDO, and it's just not a skill the medium teaches. The last round is the same size as every other round.


BOP is important. If we are discussing a toaster in space, I need not prove it doesn't exists. Only the person claiming it exist needs to prove anything. I just need to make sure the prove doesn't stand to scrutiny. I'm not sure what debates you watch, but Burden of Prove is vital, but not every side has the same amount of it.

And I'm sorry.... I don't recall only you got to decide what counts as normal debate. Last I checked, there are many types of debates, and ours is just one of those many. Even real life debates have many different forms.
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"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
16kadams
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1/6/2015 11:10:57 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I never have debated, done model UN, or mock trial in real life. Only this.
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1/6/2015 11:11:26 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/6/2015 10:38:54 PM, bluesteel wrote:
At 1/6/2015 5:38:11 PM, Tskuvaliu wrote:
Debates are treated like a pitting of two intelligent reports and studies. Real debating is done much more like ancient Athenian democracy. The end goal is not to prove you are more right than your opponent. It is to be more persuasive and convincing.

How many people here watch debates? It is not like debate.org where people have written debates. Many forums also organize them, and stay true to the concept. I have not seen really any debaters thats argument could stand against a trained opponent.

Who are the people considered good here?

Estimating a percentage isn't worthwhile because it depends on how you define the "membership" of DDO, which is in dispute. We have about 10 users with formal debate training in LD, policy, PF, or parli. There are about 200 unique users per day. So that's 5%.

I assume what you really want to know is who has formal debate training on here:

me (bluesteel)
raisor
thett3
debatability
zaradi
whiteflame
larztheloser
YYW
bsh1

I think bladerunner060 does as well, but I'm not sure.

You can set all your debates to be judge voting so that only people you think are good judges can vote on your debates. I recommend you do that.

I also think that Maikuru and Danielle are amazing debaters and good judges, even though they were not formally trained. Their abilities are the same as top notch people with formal training.

Bruh I debate parli varsity on my circuit how can you leave me out? T_T
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donald.keller
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1/6/2015 11:25:51 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/6/2015 11:06:40 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 1/6/2015 11:03:04 PM, donald.keller wrote:
At 1/6/2015 10:52:23 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 1/6/2015 10:50:21 PM, donald.keller wrote:
At 1/6/2015 5:29:29 PM, Tskuvaliu wrote:
At 1/6/2015 4:46:07 PM, Ragnar wrote:
Didferent medium, thus different form. Link for more information is in my signature.
I see no reason why it has to be. What incentive do I have to do a debate, if my opponent will respond like it is not an actual debate? Why does judging by bop, something that would never happen in front of any panel take place!? Medium does not matter. This is debate warped into something else.

A few reasons: Character limit. You can't fit a whole speech in there, so you fit an essay instead.

LOL, RL debate speeches have limited time too. And unlike DDO the speeches decrease in length so the debater is forced to choose which arguments to prioritize....that's the biggest problem with the DDO debating system.

Character limits work the same way, since as the debate goes on, more arguments are put in to need refuting. What started as 5k characters in R1, becomes 7k in R2, 10k in R3... and so on. You have more the fit in as you keep adding new things to your side and your opponent does the same. And here, you have a chance to add to a round over time. How many times do you find yourself looking over the debate, and adding a lot of stuff you didn't think to add the first time around? This increases the size of an Argument by quite a bit. I usually add around 1k in stuff while proofreading.

Literally everything except the proofreading part happens in real world debate too--you just have to deal with it, and deal with shrinking speeches. Not knowing how to weigh arguments is the #1 flaw with the judging on DDO, and it's just not a skill the medium teaches. The last round is the same size as every other round.

The last round is the same size by force. So I'm not sure what your point is. The point is that you have limited room to give a narrative and a speech, more so than a real life debate, because of proofreading. An argument of a thousand words in a RL debate will have a thousand and a half here because of the ability to add more before submitting. Written arguments will always allow you to review, and add things you didn't think to at first, inflating the size of one's case. And RL debates are judged by people who listen because you are talking to them. Written work doesn't get that benefit. Readers won't read through an opening speech and extra content they don't care about. In a rl debate, the judges are still there after you end your narrative. Online though, if you waste character on all the stuff the OP mentioned, you'll waste the readers interest, and they will leave. Written and Spoken arguments are not the same in that aspect.

BOP is important. If we are discussing a toaster in space, I need not prove it doesn't exists. Only the person claiming it exist needs to prove anything. I just need to make sure the prove doesn't stand to scrutiny. I'm not sure what debates you watch, but Burden of Prove is vital, but not every side has the same amount of it.

And I'm sorry.... I don't recall only you got to decide what counts as normal debate. Last I checked, there are many types of debates, and ours is just one of those many. Even real life debates have many different forms.
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thett3
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1/6/2015 11:42:39 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/6/2015 11:25:51 PM, donald.keller wrote:
At 1/6/2015 11:06:40 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 1/6/2015 11:03:04 PM, donald.keller wrote:
At 1/6/2015 10:52:23 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 1/6/2015 10:50:21 PM, donald.keller wrote:
At 1/6/2015 5:29:29 PM, Tskuvaliu wrote:
At 1/6/2015 4:46:07 PM, Ragnar wrote:
Didferent medium, thus different form. Link for more information is in my signature.
I see no reason why it has to be. What incentive do I have to do a debate, if my opponent will respond like it is not an actual debate? Why does judging by bop, something that would never happen in front of any panel take place!? Medium does not matter. This is debate warped into something else.

A few reasons: Character limit. You can't fit a whole speech in there, so you fit an essay instead.

LOL, RL debate speeches have limited time too. And unlike DDO the speeches decrease in length so the debater is forced to choose which arguments to prioritize....that's the biggest problem with the DDO debating system.

Character limits work the same way, since as the debate goes on, more arguments are put in to need refuting. What started as 5k characters in R1, becomes 7k in R2, 10k in R3... and so on. You have more the fit in as you keep adding new things to your side and your opponent does the same. And here, you have a chance to add to a round over time. How many times do you find yourself looking over the debate, and adding a lot of stuff you didn't think to add the first time around? This increases the size of an Argument by quite a bit. I usually add around 1k in stuff while proofreading.

Literally everything except the proofreading part happens in real world debate too--you just have to deal with it, and deal with shrinking speeches. Not knowing how to weigh arguments is the #1 flaw with the judging on DDO, and it's just not a skill the medium teaches. The last round is the same size as every other round.

The last round is the same size by force. So I'm not sure what your point is. The point is that you have limited room to give a narrative and a speech, more so than a real life debate, because of proofreading. An argument of a thousand words in a RL debate will have a thousand and a half here because of the ability to add more before submitting. Written arguments will always allow you to review, and add things you didn't think to at first, inflating the size of one's case. And RL debates are judged by people who listen because you are talking to them. Written work doesn't get that benefit. Readers won't read through an opening speech and extra content they don't care about. In a rl debate, the judges are still there after you end your narrative. Online though, if you waste character on all the stuff the OP mentioned, you'll waste the readers interest, and they will leave. Written and Spoken arguments are not the same in that aspect.

Umm...I don't think you really get what the OP is talking about

BOP is important. If we are discussing a toaster in space, I need not prove it doesn't exists. Only the person claiming it exist needs to prove anything. I just need to make sure the prove doesn't stand to scrutiny. I'm not sure what debates you watch, but Burden of Prove is vital, but not every side has the same amount of it.

And I'm sorry.... I don't recall only you got to decide what counts as normal debate. Last I checked, there are many types of debates, and ours is just one of those many. Even real life debates have many different forms.
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: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
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1/7/2015 12:11:15 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/6/2015 5:29:29 PM, Tskuvaliu wrote:
At 1/6/2015 4:46:07 PM, Ragnar wrote:
[Different] medium, thus different form. Link for more information is in my signature.
I see no reason why it has to be. What incentive do I have to do a debate, if my opponent will respond like it is not an actual debate?
It is an actual debate, just in a different form than you are accustomed. For example, conduct is weighted separate from arguments, as are sources. When is the last time during a live debate you were able to get the judges to cross reference any sources?

Why does judging by bop, something that would never happen in front of any panel take place!?
If BoP is not a factor in the live debates you've been in, than people can ignore the topic wholly and still win against someone who stays on topic. But yes, I do see BoP misused, as mentioned in my previous source... Or for a direct link to the second BoP section of it: https://docs.google.com...

Medium does not matter. This is debate warped into something else.
Please provide a dictionary link for which definition of debate you are using.
Unofficial DDO Guide: http://goo.gl...
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