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Question about plagiarizing

dtaylor971
Posts: 1,907
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1/12/2015 9:20:35 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
If you source what you "plagiarize," is it "plagiarizing?" For example, if you post a whole lecture from a Harvard professor as your argument, then source it, is that acceptable? I ask because of this debate:

http://www.debate.org...

VD says it is OK, but I am unsure. Can I have some further insight on this?
"I don't know why gays want to marry, I have spent the last 25 years wishing I wasn't allowed to." -Sadolite
Valar_Dohaeris
Posts: 78
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1/12/2015 9:21:43 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/12/2015 9:20:35 PM, dtaylor971 wrote:
If you source what you "plagiarize," is it "plagiarizing?" For example, if you post a whole lecture from a Harvard professor as your argument, then source it, is that acceptable? I ask because of this debate:

http://www.debate.org...

VD says it is OK, but I am unsure. Can I have some further insight on this?

Its's effectively the same as block text.
TN05
Posts: 4,492
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1/12/2015 9:37:41 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/12/2015 9:20:35 PM, dtaylor971 wrote:
If you source what you "plagiarize," is it "plagiarizing?" For example, if you post a whole lecture from a Harvard professor as your argument, then source it, is that acceptable? I ask because of this debate:

http://www.debate.org...

VD says it is OK, but I am unsure. Can I have some further insight on this?

It's a terrible debate strategy, but it's valid as a block quote.
Valar_Dohaeris
Posts: 78
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1/12/2015 9:39:23 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/12/2015 9:37:41 PM, TN05 wrote:
At 1/12/2015 9:20:35 PM, dtaylor971 wrote:
If you source what you "plagiarize," is it "plagiarizing?" For example, if you post a whole lecture from a Harvard professor as your argument, then source it, is that acceptable? I ask because of this debate:

http://www.debate.org...

VD says it is OK, but I am unsure. Can I have some further insight on this?

It's a terrible debate strategy, but it's valid as a block quote.

This man is wise
bluesteel
Posts: 12,301
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1/12/2015 9:58:45 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/12/2015 9:20:35 PM, dtaylor971 wrote:
If you source what you "plagiarize," is it "plagiarizing?" For example, if you post a whole lecture from a Harvard professor as your argument, then source it, is that acceptable? I ask because of this debate:

http://www.debate.org...

VD says it is OK, but I am unsure. Can I have some further insight on this?

Plagiarism means using someone else's work as your own without attribution. What you described is not plagiarism, although it is heavily frowned upon in the debate community and will win you very few debates.
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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1/12/2015 10:58:38 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/12/2015 9:20:35 PM, dtaylor971 wrote:
If you source what you "plagiarize," is it "plagiarizing?" For example, if you post a whole lecture from a Harvard professor as your argument, then source it, is that acceptable? I ask because of this debate:

http://www.debate.org...

VD says it is OK, but I am unsure. Can I have some further insight on this?

It's not acceptable.
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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1/12/2015 10:59:53 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Is it okay for me to write Moby dik and put my name on it but cite the original author at the end?
numberwang
Posts: 1,917
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1/12/2015 11:06:09 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/12/2015 10:59:53 PM, Wylted wrote:
Is it okay for me to write Moby dik and put my name on it but cite the original author at the end?

yes, if you quoted the entire thing you wrote.
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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1/12/2015 11:08:56 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/12/2015 11:06:09 PM, numberwang wrote:
At 1/12/2015 10:59:53 PM, Wylted wrote:
Is it okay for me to write Moby dik and put my name on it but cite the original author at the end?

yes, if you quoted the entire thing you wrote.

I think the copyright is expired on that but do it with a copyright that's not expired and see where that gets you.
Atheist-Independent
Posts: 776
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1/12/2015 11:09:16 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
This all seems like semantics to me. Copying another authors work and then sighting them at the end does not seem like a legitimate source.
Valar_Dohaeris
Posts: 78
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1/12/2015 11:29:21 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/12/2015 11:08:56 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 1/12/2015 11:06:09 PM, numberwang wrote:
At 1/12/2015 10:59:53 PM, Wylted wrote:
Is it okay for me to write Moby dik and put my name on it but cite the original author at the end?

yes, if you quoted the entire thing you wrote.

I think the copyright is expired on that but do it with a copyright that's not expired and see where that gets you.

http://www.plagiarism.org...
Bennett91
Posts: 4,201
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1/12/2015 11:29:35 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/12/2015 9:20:35 PM, dtaylor971 wrote:
If you source what you "plagiarize," is it "plagiarizing?" For example, if you post a whole lecture from a Harvard professor as your argument, then source it, is that acceptable? I ask because of this debate:

http://www.debate.org...

VD says it is OK, but I am unsure. Can I have some further insight on this?

I don't think this debate in particular is ok. He didn't cite a source, he cited Envisage. As if just Envies name on the argument gives it validity.
Valar_Dohaeris
Posts: 78
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1/13/2015 12:12:09 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/12/2015 11:29:35 PM, Bennett91 wrote:
At 1/12/2015 9:20:35 PM, dtaylor971 wrote:
If you source what you "plagiarize," is it "plagiarizing?" For example, if you post a whole lecture from a Harvard professor as your argument, then source it, is that acceptable? I ask because of this debate:

http://www.debate.org...

VD says it is OK, but I am unsure. Can I have some further insight on this?

I don't think this debate in particular is ok. He didn't cite a source, he cited Envisage. As if just Envies name on the argument gives it validity.

https://www.youtube.com...
Valar_Dohaeris
Posts: 78
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1/13/2015 12:21:21 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/13/2015 12:15:09 AM, TUF wrote:
Let it go, TUF. Let it go...

I'm expecting you to break out in song here at some point soon mate. Anyway its after 6, Im passing out. Been up all night as is. Get a grip though chap, I'm starting to think you are delusional wanting to sing frozen that much
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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1/13/2015 1:11:59 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/12/2015 11:29:21 PM, Valar_Dohaeris wrote:
At 1/12/2015 11:08:56 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 1/12/2015 11:06:09 PM, numberwang wrote:
At 1/12/2015 10:59:53 PM, Wylted wrote:
Is it okay for me to write Moby dik and put my name on it but cite the original author at the end?

yes, if you quoted the entire thing you wrote.

I think the copyright is expired on that but do it with a copyright that's not expired and see where that gets you.

http://www.plagiarism.org...

From the same source in describing what plagiarism is

"copying so many words or ideas from a source that it makes up the majority of your work, whether you give credit or not (see our section on "fair use" rules)"
TUF
Posts: 21,297
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1/13/2015 1:29:16 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/13/2015 12:21:21 AM, Valar_Dohaeris wrote:
At 1/13/2015 12:15:09 AM, TUF wrote:
Let it go, TUF. Let it go...

I'm expecting you to break out in song here at some point soon mate. Anyway its after 6, Im passing out. Been up all night as is. Get a grip though chap, I'm starting to think you are delusional wanting to sing frozen that much

You know I love my frozen.
"I've got to go and grab a shirt" ~ Airmax1227
Ragnar
Posts: 1,658
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1/13/2015 2:37:43 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/12/2015 9:20:35 PM, dtaylor971 wrote:
If you post a whole lecture from a Harvard professor as your argument, then source it, is that acceptable?
It's a source, not an argument. Arguments > Sources.
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Valar_Dohaeris
Posts: 78
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1/13/2015 8:33:42 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/13/2015 1:11:59 AM, Wylted wrote:
At 1/12/2015 11:29:21 PM, Valar_Dohaeris wrote:
At 1/12/2015 11:08:56 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 1/12/2015 11:06:09 PM, numberwang wrote:
At 1/12/2015 10:59:53 PM, Wylted wrote:
Is it okay for me to write Moby dik and put my name on it but cite the original author at the end?

yes, if you quoted the entire thing you wrote.

I think the copyright is expired on that but do it with a copyright that's not expired and see where that gets you.

http://www.plagiarism.org...

From the same source in describing what plagiarism is

"copying so many words or ideas from a source that it makes up the majority of your work, whether you give credit or not (see our section on "fair use" rules)"

That is used for research papers. A majority of words generally is an entire book and passing it off as an essay. Not 500 words and passing it off as a defense.
Valkrin
Posts: 2,046
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1/13/2015 9:13:04 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/13/2015 8:33:42 AM, Valar_Dohaeris wrote:
At 1/13/2015 1:11:59 AM, Wylted wrote:
At 1/12/2015 11:29:21 PM, Valar_Dohaeris wrote:
At 1/12/2015 11:08:56 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 1/12/2015 11:06:09 PM, numberwang wrote:
At 1/12/2015 10:59:53 PM, Wylted wrote:
Is it okay for me to write Moby dik and put my name on it but cite the original author at the end?

yes, if you quoted the entire thing you wrote.

I think the copyright is expired on that but do it with a copyright that's not expired and see where that gets you.

http://www.plagiarism.org...

From the same source in describing what plagiarism is

"copying so many words or ideas from a source that it makes up the majority of your work, whether you give credit or not (see our section on "fair use" rules)"

That is used for research papers. A majority of words generally is an entire book and passing it off as an essay. Not 500 words and passing it off as a defense.

In a way it's the same thing.
You're researching a topic and making an argument out of it. As the one excerpt was a major part of your argument, another person could have long blocks of text for his essay. There's near little difference.
"So, to start off, I've never committed suicide." - Vaarka
KhaosMage
Posts: 1,475
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1/13/2015 9:38:14 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/13/2015 2:37:43 AM, Ragnar wrote:
At 1/12/2015 9:20:35 PM, dtaylor971 wrote:
If you post a whole lecture from a Harvard professor as your argument, then source it, is that acceptable?
It's a source, not an argument. Arguments > Sources.

Why can't you use that as an argument?
If I paraphrase it, is it any less illegitimate?
Ragnar
Posts: 1,658
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1/13/2015 10:20:25 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/13/2015 9:38:14 AM, KhaosMage wrote:
At 1/13/2015 2:37:43 AM, Ragnar wrote:
At 1/12/2015 9:20:35 PM, dtaylor971 wrote:
If you post a whole lecture from a Harvard professor as your argument, then source it, is that acceptable?
It's a source, not an argument. Arguments > Sources.
Why can't you use that as an argument?
If I paraphrase it, is it any less illegitimate?
You can, but when that is your entire round I will treat that as a source. We are debating each other, not a Harvard Professor (unless one of us happens to be that).
Paraphrased into your own words, is your own words, to which you had to put your own thought into, and displays your understanding of the material.
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Valkrin
Posts: 2,046
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1/13/2015 10:26:42 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Either way, he's quoting it in his argument and using another person's words and thought as his argument. Even if it isn't plagiarism it's a cheap excuse for an argument that shows he didn't have the effort to at least put it in his own words, using his words as an argument instead of the primary source.
"So, to start off, I've never committed suicide." - Vaarka
KhaosMage
Posts: 1,475
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1/13/2015 10:26:53 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/13/2015 10:20:25 AM, Ragnar wrote:
At 1/13/2015 9:38:14 AM, KhaosMage wrote:
At 1/13/2015 2:37:43 AM, Ragnar wrote:
At 1/12/2015 9:20:35 PM, dtaylor971 wrote:
If you post a whole lecture from a Harvard professor as your argument, then source it, is that acceptable?
It's a source, not an argument. Arguments > Sources.
Why can't you use that as an argument?
If I paraphrase it, is it any less illegitimate?
You can, but when that is your entire round I will treat that as a source. We are debating each other, not a Harvard Professor (unless one of us happens to be that).
Paraphrased into your own words, is your own words, to which you had to put your own thought into, and displays your understanding of the material.

I get that, but isn't the purpose of debate to debate arguments, not speakers?
This isn't a test being graded.

What is the point of debate, then?
To present the best arguments and let the best arguments win, or to pit the speaker against speaker?
The former is about truth, while the latter is about competition. I guess I am just confused about the value of debate, since it isn't about finding the truth, just who can argue/exploit rules better. It seems that debates on DDO are just a sort of game, then.
Valkrin
Posts: 2,046
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1/13/2015 10:28:11 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/13/2015 10:26:53 AM, KhaosMage wrote:
At 1/13/2015 10:20:25 AM, Ragnar wrote:
At 1/13/2015 9:38:14 AM, KhaosMage wrote:
At 1/13/2015 2:37:43 AM, Ragnar wrote:
At 1/12/2015 9:20:35 PM, dtaylor971 wrote:
If you post a whole lecture from a Harvard professor as your argument, then source it, is that acceptable?
It's a source, not an argument. Arguments > Sources.
Why can't you use that as an argument?
If I paraphrase it, is it any less illegitimate?
You can, but when that is your entire round I will treat that as a source. We are debating each other, not a Harvard Professor (unless one of us happens to be that).
Paraphrased into your own words, is your own words, to which you had to put your own thought into, and displays your understanding of the material.

I get that, but isn't the purpose of debate to debate arguments, not speakers?
This isn't a test being graded.

What is the point of debate, then?
To present the best arguments and let the best arguments win, or to pit the speaker against speaker?
The former is about truth, while the latter is about competition. I guess I am just confused about the value of debate, since it isn't about finding the truth, just who can argue/exploit rules better. It seems that debates on DDO are just a sort of game, then.

I sort of see your point here, but it's still highly frowned upon to use another person's words and effort as your entire argument, even if it is sourced and is factual.
"So, to start off, I've never committed suicide." - Vaarka
KhaosMage
Posts: 1,475
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1/13/2015 10:41:40 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/13/2015 10:28:11 AM, Valkrin wrote:

I sort of see your point here, but it's still highly frowned upon to use another person's words and effort as your entire argument, even if it is sourced and is factual.

Don't get me wrong, I agree it ought to be frowned upon.
But, debate IRL is about speakers, about competition, not so much finding the truth. If that is the case, then obviously, it should not be allowed to C/P someone's argument.

But, I thought DDO's debates (or at least the reason for valuing them over the forums) was for a grand reason. Keeping in mind, that I've been told to ignore misstated facts when judging. It is evident that truth is not sought via debates on DDO.
Ragnar
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1/13/2015 11:30:54 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/13/2015 10:41:40 AM, KhaosMage wrote:
At 1/13/2015 10:28:11 AM, Valkrin wrote:
I sort of see your point here, but it's still highly frowned upon to use another person's words and effort as your entire argument, even if it is sourced and is factual.
Don't get me wrong, I agree it ought to be frowned upon.
But, debate IRL is about speakers, about competition, not so much finding the truth. If that is the case, then obviously, it should not be allowed to C/P someone's argument.

But, I thought DDO's debates (or at least the reason for valuing them over the forums) was for a grand reason. Keeping in mind, that I've been told to ignore misstated facts when judging. It is evident that truth is not sought via debates on DDO.
I will wholly agree with your statement "it is evident that truth is not sought via debates on DDO." Debating here is competitive. There are debates here on truisms all the time, and it would be incredibly lame if it was an automatic win.

On voting, there are zero points awarded for whom each of us "agree with before/after." You can start disagreeing with a motion, and in the end agree with it, yet have that person have put forward clearly inferior arguments such that unless you are an intentional votebomber you have to vote against them.
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Valar_Dohaeris
Posts: 78
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1/13/2015 6:40:49 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/13/2015 10:26:42 AM, Valkrin wrote:
Either way, he's quoting it in his argument and using another person's words and thought as his argument. Even if it isn't plagiarism it's a cheap excuse for an argument that shows he didn't have the effort to at least put it in his own words, using his words as an argument instead of the primary source.

Thats the point of this. Whether it's moral or not is really not applicable. The question is about plagiarism. It's not
Valkrin
Posts: 2,046
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1/13/2015 6:51:13 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/13/2015 6:40:49 PM, Valar_Dohaeris wrote:
At 1/13/2015 10:26:42 AM, Valkrin wrote:
Either way, he's quoting it in his argument and using another person's words and thought as his argument. Even if it isn't plagiarism it's a cheap excuse for an argument that shows he didn't have the effort to at least put it in his own words, using his words as an argument instead of the primary source.

Thats the point of this. Whether it's moral or not is really not applicable. The question is about plagiarism. It's not

It technically is, under the cite you quoted.
"So, to start off, I've never committed suicide." - Vaarka
Valar_Dohaeris
Posts: 78
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1/13/2015 7:03:51 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/13/2015 6:51:13 PM, Valkrin wrote:
At 1/13/2015 6:40:49 PM, Valar_Dohaeris wrote:
At 1/13/2015 10:26:42 AM, Valkrin wrote:
Either way, he's quoting it in his argument and using another person's words and thought as his argument. Even if it isn't plagiarism it's a cheap excuse for an argument that shows he didn't have the effort to at least put it in his own words, using his words as an argument instead of the primary source.

Thats the point of this. Whether it's moral or not is really not applicable. The question is about plagiarism. It's not

It technically is, under the cite you quoted.

Again that is in regards to citing entire works. Not block quoting an argument, where credit was given. There is literally no different in other block quotes used in arguments, except there was only one block quote.