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Voting Ethics and a Call For Reform.

donald.keller
Posts: 3,709
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2/3/2015 11:31:27 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Regarding this debate:
== Europe is Superior to the U.S ==
http://www.debate.org...

I didn't mind voting. While I knew there were issues, I didn't care about them much. However, this debate has shown both me and Emil just how bad this is.

Yesterday, the score was 8 - 21. Today, after a 10 minute shower, I came back to 25 - 21. Over the course of the last 2 hours, there were hundreds of vote updates, and the score went to 35 - 41. Last 15 seconds saw 10+ voting updates. The debate ended with 44 - 38. If you don't see the issue here, you should probably just check out the debate. To explain this better... In the last two hours, we went from the 15th most commented on debate in DDO history, to the second. We will likely be first place before the day ends. That alone should explain the controversy of the last 2 hours of the debate.

That being said... Voting on this site is in need of immediate reform. An entire PM was made by Airmax just for me and Emil to discuss the voting. This should never have to happen.

This issues with voting here were:
-Last Minute Votes.
-Fabricated RFDs.
-Voting Fraud.


-- Last Minute Votes --

Last minute votes were bad here... 2 hours remaining, and the debate had around 12 votes. Now it has 21. Last minute voting is an attempt at vote bombing that people seem to assume works since they don't think a vote would get deleted after the debate closes. However, it led to counter bombing and a comment/vote war instead.

This kind of thing skews the water. A means of stopping it, in my opinion, would be to set it up so that if someone votes with less with 5 hours left, it extends the voting period back to 5 hours. This stops last minute voting indefinitely. That way, no vote can be cast as the debate ends.

-- Fabricated RFDs --

These RFDs are large enough to cover enough ground that the vote looks valid. However, it's not appropriate. An example here:

"Con thinks low taxes are a plus. I don't think this is the case. Low taxes mean low investment within ones own nation."

This is apart of a 670 character RFD. The RFD is large enough to justify the vote if not examined. However, I did examine it. This part was the main reason to hand Pro arguments. What's the issue? I brought up high taxes as an issue and Pro dropped it in the next round. Pro never brought it back up either. This fact should also explain the next issue... The argument the voter made was never in the debate. It was fabricated to justify his vote.

This issue is the main one... It needs a means of being stopped that goes beyond adding new Voting Systems. Be it 7-points, or WTA, you can rationalize a vote with a large enough RFD. So I think this one needs the most discussing.

-- Voting Fraud --

Voting Fraud here is when someone uses influence to shift a debate. In this case, Mikal. Mikal stated in the beginning that he voted to stop vote bombs. However, every vote bomb so far was in Pro's name. Only afterwards did we see 5+ vote bombs and CVBs. 3 for Pro, and 2 for me. But that aside, Mikal stated that he could get 30+ people to vote for Pro if the CVBs didn't end, despite how they were mostly in Pro's favor. This made worse by the idea of punishing me for what voters did... That's not a fair means of handling the issue.

After the debate, when a mass of new people voted, Mikal said this:
I take full responsibility. I noted if anyone else tried to cvb last min i would have the debate swing. 3 votes came in so, blame me.

its amazing how a 5 point debate swings this hard over this elitism things about votes. I hope every stfus about it now and leaves it alone, because having people throw up 1 second votes to try and offset "bad" votes is just sht

Its always nice to level the playing field


Funny enough, none of the "three votes" weren't votebombs. And it's ironic to say that voting last minute to offset bad votes is bad when that's what he attempted to to do. And most of the last minute votes were in Pro's favor.

This kind of thing... Not just what Mikal did, but popularity in general, is corrupting voting. People will vote for popular members. We saw this in Mikal v Roylatham, and we see it here. When a user just needs to say "Vote Pro" and a herd of members vote pro, there is an issue.

Now I don't know of many good answers to this one, but increased voting requires is the best. Not added new objectives (more debates, X number of post, etc...), but adding Time Requirements. The biggest cause of popularity is new members. Noobs attach to popular members. The concept of Seniority... That being said, a time requirement should be posted to stop new members from vote bombing for their idols. This also stops issues like multi-account voting, and people with lacking experience from voting. 3 Debates isn't experience... Experience is earned by actually being on the site for some time.

========

Some other issues exists. Not just corrupt voting issues,but issues like Unvoted Debates. This issue can be solved by making every debate's voting period stop at 5 hours (I'm using 5 hours as the generic example, it could change) until a vote is counted. That way, debates can't end with zero votes. This should, however, be reserved for debates that have no FF's. Debates that are, from R2 to the last round, FF's, should be deleted. These wasteful debates take up space on the voting page and muddies the water, ensuring voters don't find good debates.

========

Overall, though, these are just hypothetical. Here, we should discuss and debate methods of fixing the issue. It's not just a 7-point / WTA problem.
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bsh1
Posts: 27,503
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2/3/2015 11:36:44 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I agree with the problems you identify, though not necessarily with the solutions you propose. I can talk more about this tomorrow.
Live Long and Prosper

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imabench
Posts: 21,206
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2/3/2015 11:47:25 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/3/2015 11:36:44 PM, bsh1 wrote:
I agree with the problems you identify, though not necessarily with the solutions you propose. I can talk more about this tomorrow.

I agree with bsh that a lynch mob would be a better system of solutions to these problems.

Ill get the pitchforks, someone else will have to get torches, we will also need the following

20 other people
A megaphone or two
A bucket of old tuna
Tabasco sauce
A Cambodian prostitute with a missing nipple
A parent who doesnt vaccinate
And a dog that is losing sight in one of its eyes but it can still sort of see out of it
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donald.keller
Posts: 3,709
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2/4/2015 12:03:04 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/3/2015 11:47:25 PM, imabench wrote:
At 2/3/2015 11:36:44 PM, bsh1 wrote:
I agree with the problems you identify, though not necessarily with the solutions you propose. I can talk more about this tomorrow.

I agree with bsh that a lynch mob would be a better system of solutions to these problems.

Ill get the pitchforks, someone else will have to get torches, we will also need the following

20 other people
A megaphone or two
A bucket of old tuna
Tabasco sauce
A Cambodian prostitute with a missing nipple
A parent who doesnt vaccinate
And a dog that is losing sight in one of its eyes but it can still sort of see out of it

I'm in. Let's do this.
-- Don't forget to submit your unvoted debates to the Voter's Union --

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Zaradi
Posts: 14,124
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2/4/2015 12:18:01 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/3/2015 11:47:25 PM, imabench wrote:
At 2/3/2015 11:36:44 PM, bsh1 wrote:
I agree with the problems you identify, though not necessarily with the solutions you propose. I can talk more about this tomorrow.

I agree with bsh that a lynch mob would be a better system of solutions to these problems.

Ill get the pitchforks, someone else will have to get torches, we will also need the following

20 other people
A megaphone or two
: A bucket of old tuna
Tabasco sauce
A Cambodian prostitute with a missing nipple
A parent who doesnt vaccinate
And a dog that is losing sight in one of its eyes but it can still sort of see out of it


Rocket is that you?

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Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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2/4/2015 10:20:38 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
There is nothing wrong with last minute voting. I procrastinate and often don't vote until the last minute. I do give a warning that I'm voting last minute if I think it will be the deciding vote but the warning is just a courtesy. Last minute votes don't indicate anything nefarious.
bsh1
Posts: 27,503
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2/4/2015 11:38:12 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
@DK

Thoughts on this: http://www.debate.org...
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

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donald.keller
Posts: 3,709
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2/4/2015 10:55:09 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/4/2015 10:20:38 AM, Wylted wrote:
There is nothing wrong with last minute voting. I procrastinate and often don't vote until the last minute. I do give a warning that I'm voting last minute if I think it will be the deciding vote but the warning is just a courtesy. Last minute votes don't indicate anything nefarious.

This doesn't stop you from voting... It just resets the timer to 5 hours, so it's not really last minute.
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