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7-point voting system

TN05
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2/4/2015 10:01:52 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
DK was the sole recipient of 11 of 21 votes (52%), while Emilrose was the sole recipient of 8 of 21 votes (38%). Two votes were split, each giving DK 3 points and Emilrose 1 vote. That means 13 of 21 voters (62%) gave DK a majority of their vote. Discounting the split votes, DK averaged 3 points per vote, while Emilrose averaged 5 points per vote. Emilrose won 44-38.

There is no defense for a system that allows a scenario where, with over 20 voters, you can receive only 38% of the votes and still win. If you want to factor spelling or conduct into your voting, fine. Factor it as part of your overall vote. The 7-point system needs to be abolished immediately.
dtaylor971
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2/4/2015 10:09:31 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
A lot of the better voters (bsh1, B_O_T, myself) only gave D.K two or three points, though we all could have easily given him five or six. The 7-point system is just a way to mask a votebomb, for the spelling and grammar point can be decided due to a simple typo, conduct due to a single insult, etc.

Also, I'm not humble today.
"I don't know why gays want to marry, I have spent the last 25 years wishing I wasn't allowed to." -Sadolite
RevNge
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2/4/2015 10:52:03 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/4/2015 10:09:31 AM, dtaylor971 wrote:
A lot of the better voters (bsh1, B_O_T, myself) only gave D.K two or three points, though we all could have easily given him five or six. The 7-point system is just a way to mask a votebomb, for the spelling and grammar point can be decided due to a simple typo, conduct due to a single insult, etc.

Also, I'm not humble today.

Since when were you? ;P
bsh1
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2/4/2015 11:44:18 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
TN05, I think the issue is less with the system and more with how it is used. See: http://www.debate.org...
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donald.keller
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2/4/2015 1:55:39 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/4/2015 11:44:18 AM, bsh1 wrote:
TN05, I think the issue is less with the system and more with how it is used. See: http://www.debate.org...

My thread brought up the same issue. The system isn't the problem. The ease of fabricating an rfd is the issue. That issue will exist in any voting system.
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bsh1
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2/4/2015 2:04:32 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/4/2015 1:55:39 PM, donald.keller wrote:
At 2/4/2015 11:44:18 AM, bsh1 wrote:
TN05, I think the issue is less with the system and more with how it is used. See: http://www.debate.org...

My thread brought up the same issue. The system isn't the problem. The ease of fabricating an rfd is the issue. That issue will exist in any voting system.

Agreed. I am not sure I agree with time requirements and your solution to last minute voting, but my thread is sort of an expanded discussion of the issue of fabricated RFDs that you bring up.
Live Long and Prosper

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donald.keller
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2/4/2015 2:29:08 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/4/2015 2:04:32 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 2/4/2015 1:55:39 PM, donald.keller wrote:
At 2/4/2015 11:44:18 AM, bsh1 wrote:
TN05, I think the issue is less with the system and more with how it is used. See: http://www.debate.org...

My thread brought up the same issue. The system isn't the problem. The ease of fabricating an rfd is the issue. That issue will exist in any voting system.

Agreed. I am not sure I agree with time requirements and your solution to last minute voting, but my thread is sort of an expanded discussion of the issue of fabricated RFDs that you bring up.

I can't imagine a better solution to last minute voting, though. There isn't many options there. As for the time requirements, only members should vote... but doing 3 debates and having an account doesn't really make you a member or ensure you have real experience with voting and what counts as standard quality.
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bsh1
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2/4/2015 2:31:55 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/4/2015 2:29:08 PM, donald.keller wrote:
At 2/4/2015 2:04:32 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 2/4/2015 1:55:39 PM, donald.keller wrote:
At 2/4/2015 11:44:18 AM, bsh1 wrote:
TN05, I think the issue is less with the system and more with how it is used. See: http://www.debate.org...

My thread brought up the same issue. The system isn't the problem. The ease of fabricating an rfd is the issue. That issue will exist in any voting system.

Agreed. I am not sure I agree with time requirements and your solution to last minute voting, but my thread is sort of an expanded discussion of the issue of fabricated RFDs that you bring up.

I can't imagine a better solution to last minute voting, though. There isn't many options there.

Last minute voting isn't the same as bad voting. I think the goal should be to limit bad voting.

As for the time requirements, only members should vote... but doing 3 debates and having an account doesn't really make you a member or ensure you have real experience with voting and what counts as standard quality.

IDK...there are tons of different solutions to that. I mean, you could have members read a voting guide before they can vote, or even test them to ensure they read it (though that seems to go too far.) IDK. I think that making what counts as an acceptable RFD stricter is a good place to start though.
Live Long and Prosper

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donald.keller
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2/4/2015 2:43:02 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/4/2015 2:31:55 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 2/4/2015 2:29:08 PM, donald.keller wrote:
At 2/4/2015 2:04:32 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 2/4/2015 1:55:39 PM, donald.keller wrote:
At 2/4/2015 11:44:18 AM, bsh1 wrote:
TN05, I think the issue is less with the system and more with how it is used. See: http://www.debate.org...

My thread brought up the same issue. The system isn't the problem. The ease of fabricating an rfd is the issue. That issue will exist in any voting system.

Agreed. I am not sure I agree with time requirements and your solution to last minute voting, but my thread is sort of an expanded discussion of the issue of fabricated RFDs that you bring up.

I can't imagine a better solution to last minute voting, though. There isn't many options there.

Last minute voting isn't the same as bad voting. I think the goal should be to limit bad voting.

The idea was really about limiting bad votes. Just last minute votes, which usually are bad votes. Few last minute votes are made with good intentions.

As for the time requirements, only members should vote... but doing 3 debates and having an account doesn't really make you a member or ensure you have real experience with voting and what counts as standard quality.

IDK...there are tons of different solutions to that. I mean, you could have members read a voting guide before they can vote, or even test them to ensure they read it (though that seems to go too far.) IDK. I think that making what counts as an acceptable RFD stricter is a good place to start though.

They would probably fail to read the guideline, and if they did read it, it wouldn'tvhelp much simce most bad votes aren't caused by lacking knowledge of good voting. They are usually the product of curropt voters. Most curropt voters are new members who care little for the sites integrity. We can implemant a time requirement and a stricter guideline both.
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bsh1
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2/4/2015 4:46:46 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/4/2015 2:43:02 PM, donald.keller wrote:
At 2/4/2015 2:31:55 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 2/4/2015 2:29:08 PM, donald.keller wrote:
At 2/4/2015 2:04:32 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 2/4/2015 1:55:39 PM, donald.keller wrote:
At 2/4/2015 11:44:18 AM, bsh1 wrote:
TN05, I think the issue is less with the system and more with how it is used. See: http://www.debate.org...

My thread brought up the same issue. The system isn't the problem. The ease of fabricating an rfd is the issue. That issue will exist in any voting system.

Agreed. I am not sure I agree with time requirements and your solution to last minute voting, but my thread is sort of an expanded discussion of the issue of fabricated RFDs that you bring up.

I can't imagine a better solution to last minute voting, though. There isn't many options there.

Last minute voting isn't the same as bad voting. I think the goal should be to limit bad voting.

The idea was really about limiting bad votes. Just last minute votes, which usually are bad votes. Few last minute votes are made with good intentions.

I would rather just delete votes that are actually bad rather than delete a class of votes which is "usually" bad. Last minute votes can be good, and there is no reason to exclude them so long as moderation is willing to delete bad ones after the voting period ends.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

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donald.keller
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2/4/2015 6:32:57 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/4/2015 4:46:46 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 2/4/2015 2:43:02 PM, donald.keller wrote:
At 2/4/2015 2:31:55 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 2/4/2015 2:29:08 PM, donald.keller wrote:
At 2/4/2015 2:04:32 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 2/4/2015 1:55:39 PM, donald.keller wrote:
At 2/4/2015 11:44:18 AM, bsh1 wrote:
TN05, I think the issue is less with the system and more with how it is used. See: http://www.debate.org...

My thread brought up the same issue. The system isn't the problem. The ease of fabricating an rfd is the issue. That issue will exist in any voting system.

Agreed. I am not sure I agree with time requirements and your solution to last minute voting, but my thread is sort of an expanded discussion of the issue of fabricated RFDs that you bring up.

I can't imagine a better solution to last minute voting, though. There isn't many options there.

Last minute voting isn't the same as bad voting. I think the goal should be to limit bad voting.

The idea was really about limiting bad votes. Just last minute votes, which usually are bad votes. Few last minute votes are made with good intentions.

I would rather just delete votes that are actually bad rather than delete a class of votes which is "usually" bad. Last minute votes can be good, and there is no reason to exclude them so long as moderation is willing to delete bad ones after the voting period ends.

lol it doesn't delete the vote... The idea was that when you voted with less than 5 hours left, the timer would refresh to 5 hours, so last minute votes can happen still, but can't. See?
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bsh1
Posts: 27,504
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2/4/2015 6:35:30 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/4/2015 6:32:57 PM, donald.keller wrote:
At 2/4/2015 4:46:46 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 2/4/2015 2:43:02 PM, donald.keller wrote:
At 2/4/2015 2:31:55 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 2/4/2015 2:29:08 PM, donald.keller wrote:
At 2/4/2015 2:04:32 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 2/4/2015 1:55:39 PM, donald.keller wrote:
At 2/4/2015 11:44:18 AM, bsh1 wrote:
TN05, I think the issue is less with the system and more with how it is used. See: http://www.debate.org...

My thread brought up the same issue. The system isn't the problem. The ease of fabricating an rfd is the issue. That issue will exist in any voting system.

Agreed. I am not sure I agree with time requirements and your solution to last minute voting, but my thread is sort of an expanded discussion of the issue of fabricated RFDs that you bring up.

I can't imagine a better solution to last minute voting, though. There isn't many options there.

Last minute voting isn't the same as bad voting. I think the goal should be to limit bad voting.

The idea was really about limiting bad votes. Just last minute votes, which usually are bad votes. Few last minute votes are made with good intentions.

I would rather just delete votes that are actually bad rather than delete a class of votes which is "usually" bad. Last minute votes can be good, and there is no reason to exclude them so long as moderation is willing to delete bad ones after the voting period ends.

lol it doesn't delete the vote... The idea was that when you voted with less than 5 hours left, the timer would refresh to 5 hours, so last minute votes can happen still, but can't. See?

So when does the voting period end. If people kept voting at the last minute constantly, the debate would never close...
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

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donald.keller
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2/4/2015 6:38:02 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/4/2015 6:35:30 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 2/4/2015 6:32:57 PM, donald.keller wrote:
At 2/4/2015 4:46:46 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 2/4/2015 2:43:02 PM, donald.keller wrote:
At 2/4/2015 2:31:55 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 2/4/2015 2:29:08 PM, donald.keller wrote:
At 2/4/2015 2:04:32 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 2/4/2015 1:55:39 PM, donald.keller wrote:
At 2/4/2015 11:44:18 AM, bsh1 wrote:
TN05, I think the issue is less with the system and more with how it is used. See: http://www.debate.org...

My thread brought up the same issue. The system isn't the problem. The ease of fabricating an rfd is the issue. That issue will exist in any voting system.

Agreed. I am not sure I agree with time requirements and your solution to last minute voting, but my thread is sort of an expanded discussion of the issue of fabricated RFDs that you bring up.

I can't imagine a better solution to last minute voting, though. There isn't many options there.

Last minute voting isn't the same as bad voting. I think the goal should be to limit bad voting.

The idea was really about limiting bad votes. Just last minute votes, which usually are bad votes. Few last minute votes are made with good intentions.

I would rather just delete votes that are actually bad rather than delete a class of votes which is "usually" bad. Last minute votes can be good, and there is no reason to exclude them so long as moderation is willing to delete bad ones after the voting period ends.

lol it doesn't delete the vote... The idea was that when you voted with less than 5 hours left, the timer would refresh to 5 hours, so last minute votes can happen still, but can't. See?

So when does the voting period end. If people kept voting at the last minute constantly, the debate would never close...

I can't imagine people would vote indefinitely... Since it'd only refresh to 5 hours, it's unlikely that the debate would get more than 1 more vote before finally closing.
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bsh1
Posts: 27,504
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2/4/2015 6:40:53 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/4/2015 6:38:02 PM, donald.keller wrote:
At 2/4/2015 6:35:30 PM, bsh1 wrote:
So when does the voting period end. If people kept voting at the last minute constantly, the debate would never close...

I can't imagine people would vote indefinitely... Since it'd only refresh to 5 hours, it's unlikely that the debate would get more than 1 more vote before finally closing.

But it could happen. I could also imagine a situation where someone says, "OMG! I am losing...I need to keep the voting period open so I can get people to vote" and so they persuade someone to vote last minute which buys them time to solicit even more votebombs.
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"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

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Maikuru
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2/4/2015 6:42:11 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I receive regular messages asking me to look at and vote on debates, usually when the debate is near ending. That has resulted in a few last minute votes. I don't mind the idea of resetting the clock following such votes.
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donald.keller
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2/4/2015 6:51:57 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/4/2015 6:40:53 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 2/4/2015 6:38:02 PM, donald.keller wrote:
At 2/4/2015 6:35:30 PM, bsh1 wrote:
So when does the voting period end. If people kept voting at the last minute constantly, the debate would never close...

I can't imagine people would vote indefinitely... Since it'd only refresh to 5 hours, it's unlikely that the debate would get more than 1 more vote before finally closing.

But it could happen. I could also imagine a situation where someone says, "OMG! I am losing...I need to keep the voting period open so I can get people to vote" and so they persuade someone to vote last minute which buys them time to solicit even more votebombs.

If they're losing, they'll get more votes before closing anyways. This ensures those votes are never last-minute. See... If they can get quick votes then, they will anyways. But now the opponent has a chance to deal with it before the debate closes.

And if you extend the debate so you can get more votes, your opponent still has up to 5 hours to deal with them each, and also be voted on.
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bsh1
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2/4/2015 6:53:10 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/4/2015 6:51:57 PM, donald.keller wrote:

And if you extend the debate so you can get more votes, your opponent still has up to 5 hours to deal with them each, and also be voted on.

Unless, of course, they're asleep or offline...

I'm just not sold on that solution.
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donald.keller
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2/4/2015 6:54:22 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/4/2015 6:53:10 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 2/4/2015 6:51:57 PM, donald.keller wrote:

And if you extend the debate so you can get more votes, your opponent still has up to 5 hours to deal with them each, and also be voted on.

Unless, of course, they're asleep or offline...

I'm just not sold on that solution.

Well if their asleep, the 5 hour think is probably the only means of them being online in time to fix it...
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bsh1
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2/4/2015 6:57:08 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/4/2015 6:54:22 PM, donald.keller wrote:
At 2/4/2015 6:53:10 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 2/4/2015 6:51:57 PM, donald.keller wrote:

And if you extend the debate so you can get more votes, your opponent still has up to 5 hours to deal with them each, and also be voted on.

Unless, of course, they're asleep or offline...

I'm just not sold on that solution.

Well if their asleep, the 5 hour think is probably the only means of them being online in time to fix it...

Or not...I log off a 2am and log back on after noon. I could easily miss the last portion of voting on my debate even with the 5 extra hours. And, look, what's the difference between having extra time and a longer voting period? IDK...I just feel like this doesn't solve much.
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YYW
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2/4/2015 6:58:42 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
The thing is that the issue is *the voters* before it's their abuse of the system. Any system can be abused. The trick is to create a situation where people are not going to abuse it.

My list of approved voters is this:

Bsh1
Bladerunner
Whiteflame
Bluesteel
Thett

While this is NOT an exclusive list (meaning that there are other people who I recognize are good voters), this is the list of voters who try their best to vote fairly and well and succeed at least 90% of the time.
Tsar of DDO
donald.keller
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2/4/2015 7:03:35 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/4/2015 6:57:08 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 2/4/2015 6:54:22 PM, donald.keller wrote:
At 2/4/2015 6:53:10 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 2/4/2015 6:51:57 PM, donald.keller wrote:

And if you extend the debate so you can get more votes, your opponent still has up to 5 hours to deal with them each, and also be voted on.

Unless, of course, they're asleep or offline...

I'm just not sold on that solution.

Well if their asleep, the 5 hour think is probably the only means of them being online in time to fix it...

Or not...I log off a 2am and log back on after noon. I could easily miss the last portion of voting on my debate even with the 5 extra hours. And, look, what's the difference between having extra time and a longer voting period? IDK...I just feel like this doesn't solve much.

Yes, but if it didn't extend the voting period, you'd still miss it. That doesn't mean in many other scenarios, it would save someone.
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bsh1
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2/4/2015 7:05:43 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/4/2015 7:03:35 PM, donald.keller wrote:

Yes, but if it didn't extend the voting period, you'd still miss it. That doesn't mean in many other scenarios, it would save someone.

All your system does is it gives last minute voters more time to write RFDs. It doesn't reduce the number of votebombs on a debate, or even the number of votebombs placed on the debate in the last 5 hours or the extension periods. It doesn't necessarily give me much time to respond to those votebombs (at least not more than a longer voting period would).
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2/4/2015 7:10:46 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/4/2015 7:05:43 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 2/4/2015 7:03:35 PM, donald.keller wrote:

Yes, but if it didn't extend the voting period, you'd still miss it. That doesn't mean in many other scenarios, it would save someone.

All your system does is it gives last minute voters more time to write RFDs. It doesn't reduce the number of votebombs on a debate, or even the number of votebombs placed on the debate in the last 5 hours or the extension periods. It doesn't necessarily give me much time to respond to those votebombs (at least not more than a longer voting period would).

A longer voting period still ends when a last-minute vote comes in. This system ensures no vote can be last minute. As for writing longer RFDs, most cases they already have enough of an RFD written to avoid getting deleted. That's a standards issue. 5 hours is enough to ensure a debate can get enough attention from fair voters to correct the issue.
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bsh1
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2/4/2015 7:18:34 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/4/2015 7:10:46 PM, donald.keller wrote:
At 2/4/2015 7:05:43 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 2/4/2015 7:03:35 PM, donald.keller wrote:

Yes, but if it didn't extend the voting period, you'd still miss it. That doesn't mean in many other scenarios, it would save someone.

All your system does is it gives last minute voters more time to write RFDs. It doesn't reduce the number of votebombs on a debate, or even the number of votebombs placed on the debate in the last 5 hours or the extension periods. It doesn't necessarily give me much time to respond to those votebombs (at least not more than a longer voting period would).

A longer voting period still ends when a last-minute vote comes in. This system ensures no vote can be last minute.

But, it doesn't stop votebombing. Your argument is that last minute votes are votebombs usually. Okay. Well, the solution isn't to make it impossible to cast last minute votes (because people will still votebomb during the 5 hour extensions), the solution is to make RFD standards stricter to stop votebombs overall.
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