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Guide: How to beat bluesteel in a debate

BlackVoid
Posts: 9,170
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2/15/2015 11:20:28 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Bluesteel is widely considered to be the best debater on DDO. But while its true that he's pretty formidable, there are some tricks you can use to get the upper hand. Here is a list of methods that can be used to beat this guy:

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Well, thats all the ways there are. Good luck!
1harderthanyouthink
Posts: 13,107
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2/15/2015 11:41:27 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Seems about right.
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

-Syd Barrett

DDO Risk King
bsh1
Posts: 27,504
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2/15/2015 11:43:25 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Sounds legit.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

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Maikuru
Posts: 9,112
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2/16/2015 12:10:24 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
lol at the people above. You have to highlight his post to see the text.
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imabench
Posts: 21,230
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2/16/2015 12:29:02 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/16/2015 12:10:24 AM, Maikuru wrote:
lol at the people above. You have to highlight his post to see the text.

http://cdn.memegenerator.net...
Kevin24018 : "He's just so mean it makes me want to ball up my fists and stamp on the ground"
Geogeer: "Nobody is dumb enough to become my protege."

7/14/16 = The Presidency Dies

DDO: THE MOVIE = http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...

VP of DDO from Dec 14th 2014 to Jan 1st 2015
Maikuru
Posts: 9,112
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2/16/2015 12:49:31 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/16/2015 12:29:02 AM, imabench wrote:
At 2/16/2015 12:10:24 AM, Maikuru wrote:
lol at the people above. You have to highlight his post to see the text.

http://cdn.memegenerator.net...

You playing around? I thought blackvoid was pretty clever to hide the text that way.
"You assume I wouldn't want to burn this whole place to the ground."
- lamerde

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Zarroette
Posts: 2,951
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2/16/2015 2:47:50 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
In the near future, I reckon I will be able to give him a run for his money. I analysed a lot of his debates and found a couple of habits and slight weaknesses that I should be able to take advantage of. Mind you, this isn't to undermine his reputation, it's just that he is beatable if you're willing to work towards having a thorough command of a topic and insight into his personality and habits.
Beginner
Posts: 4,292
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2/16/2015 3:07:29 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/16/2015 2:47:50 AM, Zarroette wrote:
In the near future, I reckon I will be able to give him a run for his money. I analysed a lot of his debates and found a couple of habits and slight weaknesses that I should be able to take advantage of. Mind you, this isn't to undermine his reputation, it's just that he is beatable if you're willing to work towards having a thorough command of a topic and insight into his personality and habits.

After that, you'll have to convince him to debate you.
Senpai has noticed you.
Zarroette
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2/16/2015 3:11:29 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/16/2015 3:07:29 AM, Beginner wrote:
At 2/16/2015 2:47:50 AM, Zarroette wrote:
In the near future, I reckon I will be able to give him a run for his money. I analysed a lot of his debates and found a couple of habits and slight weaknesses that I should be able to take advantage of. Mind you, this isn't to undermine his reputation, it's just that he is beatable if you're willing to work towards having a thorough command of a topic and insight into his personality and habits.

After that, you'll have to convince him to debate you.

That's the easy part, if you know him well enough :)
Beginner
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2/16/2015 3:12:38 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/16/2015 2:47:50 AM, Zarroette wrote:
I analysed a lot of his debates and found a couple of habits and slight weaknesses
So what weaknesses might these be? :3
Senpai has noticed you.
Zarroette
Posts: 2,951
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2/16/2015 3:25:22 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/16/2015 3:12:38 AM, Beginner wrote:
At 2/16/2015 2:47:50 AM, Zarroette wrote:
I analysed a lot of his debates and found a couple of habits and slight weaknesses
So what weaknesses might these be? :3

His debating technique is quite mechanical. If you argue well-known topics that have been debated plenty of times, you're going to get crushed. You need to make it hard for him by not allowing the mechanical process of his to start as fluently, or at least make it falter before it starts. This doesn't mean that he is incapable of producing new arguments off the top of his head (in fact, this is one of his serious strengths), rather that the mechanics involved in making those are quite predictable and can be traced to a start-point. He has a couple of personality traits that can help you further, too, since most top-debaters have this mechanical weakness, yet his personality makes it an actual weakness rather than merely a human flaw.

I won't go into what makes his personality flaw his debating technique because that would be quite mean (and probably against the ToS).
Beginner
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2/16/2015 2:51:48 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/16/2015 4:18:07 AM, Envisage wrote:
1. Send him acid
2. Read Wyted's Black Hat Guides
3. ???
4. Profit

Beating bluesteel when he's not at his best is anticlimactic. It will never be satisfying as slaying the monster debater that he can be. :)
Senpai has noticed you.
BlackVoid
Posts: 9,170
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2/16/2015 3:21:58 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/16/2015 3:25:22 AM, Zarroette wrote:
At 2/16/2015 3:12:38 AM, Beginner wrote:
At 2/16/2015 2:47:50 AM, Zarroette wrote:
I analysed a lot of his debates and found a couple of habits and slight weaknesses
So what weaknesses might these be? :3

His debating technique is quite mechanical. If you argue well-known topics that have been debated plenty of times, you're going to get crushed. You need to make it hard for him by not allowing the mechanical process of his to start as fluently, or at least make it falter before it starts. This doesn't mean that he is incapable of producing new arguments off the top of his head (in fact, this is one of his serious strengths), rather that the mechanics involved in making those are quite predictable and can be traced to a start-point. He has a couple of personality traits that can help you further, too, since most top-debaters have this mechanical weakness, yet his personality makes it an actual weakness rather than merely a human flaw.

I won't go into what makes his personality flaw his debating technique because that would be quite mean (and probably against the ToS).

If I were to give some actual advice, I think its true that you should avoid stock topics, although for different reasons. The most important thing imo is to avoid a debate about practicality, because Bluesteel will out-source and out-statistic anybody on an issue that has to do with net benefits. The only way you should do a practical topic is if its something you're an expert in.

That said, its not like going with a hardcore philosophy topic is the entire answer, because I've seen him debate morals too (animal rights vs Freeman) and he did fine, but your odds are still better.

If your goal is to win the debate and not necessarilly be persuasive, I really like the approach Raisor used in this debate, where he advocated 4 different moral frameworks and argued that he only had to win 1 in order to affirm. If you can get the judges to buy that strategy, it makes it easier to win because Blue (or anyone you're debating) would have to successfully refute everything you say in order to win.

http://www.debate.org...

Who knows, though.
16kadams
Posts: 10,497
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2/16/2015 3:39:25 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/16/2015 3:21:58 PM, BlackVoid wrote:
At 2/16/2015 3:25:22 AM, Zarroette wrote:
At 2/16/2015 3:12:38 AM, Beginner wrote:
At 2/16/2015 2:47:50 AM, Zarroette wrote:
I analysed a lot of his debates and found a couple of habits and slight weaknesses
So what weaknesses might these be? :3

His debating technique is quite mechanical. If you argue well-known topics that have been debated plenty of times, you're going to get crushed. You need to make it hard for him by not allowing the mechanical process of his to start as fluently, or at least make it falter before it starts. This doesn't mean that he is incapable of producing new arguments off the top of his head (in fact, this is one of his serious strengths), rather that the mechanics involved in making those are quite predictable and can be traced to a start-point. He has a couple of personality traits that can help you further, too, since most top-debaters have this mechanical weakness, yet his personality makes it an actual weakness rather than merely a human flaw.

I won't go into what makes his personality flaw his debating technique because that would be quite mean (and probably against the ToS).

If I were to give some actual advice, I think its true that you should avoid stock topics, although for different reasons. The most important thing imo is to avoid a debate about practicality, because Bluesteel will out-source and out-statistic anybody on an issue that has to do with net benefits. The only way you should do a practical topic is if its something you're an expert in.

He would beat me in a debate, 100% sure of that, but m8 that isn't always true. In my debate with Danielle I was citing a max of 23 sources (mostly the studies themselves), and one of the sources was me listing 6 other sources :P


That said, its not like going with a hardcore philosophy topic is the entire answer, because I've seen him debate morals too (animal rights vs Freeman) and he did fine, but your odds are still better.

If your goal is to win the debate and not necessarilly be persuasive, I really like the approach Raisor used in this debate, where he advocated 4 different moral frameworks and argued that he only had to win 1 in order to affirm. If you can get the judges to buy that strategy, it makes it easier to win because Blue (or anyone you're debating) would have to successfully refute everything you say in order to win.

http://www.debate.org...

Who knows, though.
https://www.youtube.com...
https://rekonomics.wordpress.com...
"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
debate_power
Posts: 726
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2/16/2015 3:45:38 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/15/2015 11:20:28 PM, BlackVoid wrote:
Bluesteel is widely considered to be the best debater on DDO. But while its true that he's pretty formidable, there are some tricks you can use to get the upper hand. Here is a list of methods that can be used to beat this guy:

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Well, thats all the ways there are. Good luck!

Sounds like the Soviet Russian ice hockey team. They'd win because of their reputation after they had established it.

I wonder how many will debate bluesteel now and not take the risk to diminish his win ratio?
You can call me Mark if you like.
Zarroette
Posts: 2,951
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2/17/2015 4:24:34 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/16/2015 3:21:58 PM, BlackVoid wrote:
At 2/16/2015 3:25:22 AM, Zarroette wrote:
At 2/16/2015 3:12:38 AM, Beginner wrote:
At 2/16/2015 2:47:50 AM, Zarroette wrote:
I analysed a lot of his debates and found a couple of habits and slight weaknesses
So what weaknesses might these be? :3

His debating technique is quite mechanical. If you argue well-known topics that have been debated plenty of times, you're going to get crushed. You need to make it hard for him by not allowing the mechanical process of his to start as fluently, or at least make it falter before it starts. This doesn't mean that he is incapable of producing new arguments off the top of his head (in fact, this is one of his serious strengths), rather that the mechanics involved in making those are quite predictable and can be traced to a start-point. He has a couple of personality traits that can help you further, too, since most top-debaters have this mechanical weakness, yet his personality makes it an actual weakness rather than merely a human flaw.

I won't go into what makes his personality flaw his debating technique because that would be quite mean (and probably against the ToS).

If I were to give some actual advice, I think its true that you should avoid stock topics, although for different reasons. The most important thing imo is to avoid a debate about practicality, because Bluesteel will out-source and out-statistic anybody on an issue that has to do with net benefits. The only way you should do a practical topic is if its something you're an expert in.

This is what I'm getting at with the mechanical nature of his debate technique. If you keep the debate with the realms of his commonplace (like practicality), he will be thinking in terms that he's thought about thousands of times on hundreds of different issues. So yeah, if he starts this mechanical process, then nothing short of being an expert on the topic is going to save you.

That said, its not like going with a hardcore philosophy topic is the entire answer, because I've seen him debate morals too (animal rights vs Freeman) and he did fine, but your odds are still better.

Yeah, agreed. I'd argue that his Liberal mindset (in regards to social issues) is not the best context to argue philosophy, either. Not that he won't have formidable arguments.


If your goal is to win the debate and not necessarilly be persuasive, I really like the approach Raisor used in this debate, where he advocated 4 different moral frameworks and argued that he only had to win 1 in order to affirm. If you can get the judges to buy that strategy, it makes it easier to win because Blue (or anyone you're debating) would have to successfully refute everything you say in order to win.

Sounds like shotgun-argument tactics; great debaters can handle poorly, but numerous arguments like these.


http://www.debate.org...

Who knows, though.

I do :)
imabench
Posts: 21,230
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2/17/2015 10:52:34 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/16/2015 3:45:38 PM, debate_power wrote:

I wonder how many will debate bluesteel now and not take the risk to diminish his win ratio?

I think people would not take the risk to debate Bluesteel simply because they would be subjecting themselves to a tremendous a** whipping.

Bluesteel is one of those people where when you see the notification that he has accepted one of your debates, you die either a little or a lot on the inside.
Kevin24018 : "He's just so mean it makes me want to ball up my fists and stamp on the ground"
Geogeer: "Nobody is dumb enough to become my protege."

7/14/16 = The Presidency Dies

DDO: THE MOVIE = http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...

VP of DDO from Dec 14th 2014 to Jan 1st 2015
16kadams
Posts: 10,497
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2/17/2015 12:07:11 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/17/2015 10:52:34 AM, imabench wrote:
At 2/16/2015 3:45:38 PM, debate_power wrote:

I wonder how many will debate bluesteel now and not take the risk to diminish his win ratio?

I think people would not take the risk to debate Bluesteel simply because they would be subjecting themselves to a tremendous a** whipping.

Bluesteel is one of those people where when you see the notification that he has accepted one of your debates, you die either a little or a lot on the inside.

You could beat him in a troll debate :P
https://www.youtube.com...
https://rekonomics.wordpress.com...
"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
Genghis_Khan
Posts: 480
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2/17/2015 12:11:49 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/17/2015 10:52:34 AM, imabench wrote:
At 2/16/2015 3:45:38 PM, debate_power wrote:

I wonder how many will debate bluesteel now and not take the risk to diminish his win ratio?

I think people would not take the risk to debate Bluesteel simply because they would be subjecting themselves to a tremendous a** whipping.

Bluesteel is one of those people where when you see the notification that he has accepted one of your debates, you die either a little or a lot on the inside.

fortunately, he doesn't seem to be accepting open debate challenges anymore
anything your heart desires
Raisor
Posts: 4,468
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2/17/2015 6:15:00 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/16/2015 3:21:58 PM, BlackVoid wrote:
At 2/16/2015 3:25:22 AM, Zarroette wrote:
At 2/16/2015 3:12:38 AM, Beginner wrote:
At 2/16/2015 2:47:50 AM, Zarroette wrote:
I analysed a lot of his debates and found a couple of habits and slight weaknesses
So what weaknesses might these be? :3

His debating technique is quite mechanical. If you argue well-known topics that have been debated plenty of times, you're going to get crushed. You need to make it hard for him by not allowing the mechanical process of his to start as fluently, or at least make it falter before it starts. This doesn't mean that he is incapable of producing new arguments off the top of his head (in fact, this is one of his serious strengths), rather that the mechanics involved in making those are quite predictable and can be traced to a start-point. He has a couple of personality traits that can help you further, too, since most top-debaters have this mechanical weakness, yet his personality makes it an actual weakness rather than merely a human flaw.

I won't go into what makes his personality flaw his debating technique because that would be quite mean (and probably against the ToS).

If I were to give some actual advice, I think its true that you should avoid stock topics, although for different reasons. The most important thing imo is to avoid a debate about practicality, because Bluesteel will out-source and out-statistic anybody on an issue that has to do with net benefits. The only way you should do a practical topic is if its something you're an expert in.

That said, its not like going with a hardcore philosophy topic is the entire answer, because I've seen him debate morals too (animal rights vs Freeman) and he did fine, but your odds are still better.

If your goal is to win the debate and not necessarilly be persuasive, I really like the approach Raisor used in this debate, where he advocated 4 different moral frameworks and argued that he only had to win 1 in order to affirm. If you can get the judges to buy that strategy, it makes it easier to win because Blue (or anyone you're debating) would have to successfully refute everything you say in order to win.

http://www.debate.org...

Who knows, though.

I was actually trying to bait royal into a theory debate because lol.

That technique is actually pretty bad against someone who knows how to deal with it. The theory for why it is bad is particularly effective on DDO because Con has last speech.

It's really unfair because it can be a time skew- essentially the strategy jsut makes a game out of going after whatever argument the other side has the least amount of time to cover.

It's a dispositional strategy- Con gets to pick whichever argument is best in the last round. This means Pro has no way of knowing which argument I plan on defending in the last round. Pro has to cover all 4 arguments, then in the last round I can literally spend the whole speech defending jsut one option. Pretty unfair.

It also engenders performative contradiction- I defend positions that are incompatible and even refute each other. This is unfair because it's a tactic only available to Con; the Resolution forces Pro to stay consistent. Con should have to pick an argument and stick to it.

It's bad for education/debate quality because it encourages lazy and poorly structured arguments- again, I can contradict myself, my strategy is just relying on my opponent poorly addressing one of my arguments, etc.
imabench
Posts: 21,230
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2/17/2015 8:19:21 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/17/2015 12:07:11 PM, 16kadams wrote:
At 2/17/2015 10:52:34 AM, imabench wrote:
At 2/16/2015 3:45:38 PM, debate_power wrote:

I wonder how many will debate bluesteel now and not take the risk to diminish his win ratio?

I think people would not take the risk to debate Bluesteel simply because they would be subjecting themselves to a tremendous a** whipping.

Bluesteel is one of those people where when you see the notification that he has accepted one of your debates, you die either a little or a lot on the inside.

You could beat him in a troll debate :P

Beating Bluesteel in a troll debate is like being the tallest midget in the room..... Nobody gives a sh**
Kevin24018 : "He's just so mean it makes me want to ball up my fists and stamp on the ground"
Geogeer: "Nobody is dumb enough to become my protege."

7/14/16 = The Presidency Dies

DDO: THE MOVIE = http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...

VP of DDO from Dec 14th 2014 to Jan 1st 2015
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
Posts: 18,324
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2/17/2015 8:33:42 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/17/2015 10:52:34 AM, imabench wrote:
At 2/16/2015 3:45:38 PM, debate_power wrote:

I wonder how many will debate bluesteel now and not take the risk to diminish his win ratio?

I think people would not take the risk to debate Bluesteel simply because they would be subjecting themselves to a tremendous a** whipping.

Bluesteel is one of those people where when you see the notification that he has accepted one of your debates, you die either a little or a lot on the inside.

Only if you care about your win ratio. I'd specifically seek out good debaters to debate against for the educational value of it which I find a lot more important than a meaningless number. I can understand the focus on win ratio though. If you are not a well-known member, people will look at your win ratio and measure your debating skills by it. But if all your opponents are good debaters, then your win ratio is probably going to be pretty low.

My last fifteen debates were against Raisor, Medic, Larz, darkkermit, Roy, bluesteel, Laissez-Faire, Lickdafoot (x3), Drafterman, Danielle, BlackVoid, thett3 and Double_R. Beyond that I had a few easy ones and I had a couple of music video debates. My win ratio is lol 69.05%.
bluesteel
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2/17/2015 8:46:55 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/17/2015 8:33:42 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
At 2/17/2015 10:52:34 AM, imabench wrote:
At 2/16/2015 3:45:38 PM, debate_power wrote:

I wonder how many will debate bluesteel now and not take the risk to diminish his win ratio?

I think people would not take the risk to debate Bluesteel simply because they would be subjecting themselves to a tremendous a** whipping.

Bluesteel is one of those people where when you see the notification that he has accepted one of your debates, you die either a little or a lot on the inside.

Only if you care about your win ratio. I'd specifically seek out good debaters to debate against for the educational value of it which I find a lot more important than a meaningless number. I can understand the focus on win ratio though. If you are not a well-known member, people will look at your win ratio and measure your debating skills by it. But if all your opponents are good debaters, then your win ratio is probably going to be pretty low.

My last fifteen debates were against Raisor, Medic, Larz, darkkermit, Roy, bluesteel, Laissez-Faire, Lickdafoot (x3), Drafterman, Danielle, BlackVoid, thett3 and Double_R. Beyond that I had a few easy ones and I had a couple of music video debates. My win ratio is lol 69.05%.

Yeah I'm more impressed by people who take on really good debaters, even if they lose, than people who have a 100% win ratio but have never taken on a hard opponent.
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)
bsh1
Posts: 27,504
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2/17/2015 10:11:04 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/17/2015 8:46:55 PM, bluesteel wrote:

Yeah I'm more impressed by people who take on really good debaters, even if they lose, than people who have a 100% win ratio but have never taken on a hard opponent.

^ This.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

Follow the DDOlympics
: http://www.debate.org...

Open Debate Topics Project: http://www.debate.org...
Genghis_Khan
Posts: 480
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2/19/2015 12:08:39 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/19/2015 11:27:00 AM, Unitomic wrote:
I know many of the "top" debaters rely on carefully hidden fallacies.

which is why you lost to one
anything your heart desires
imabench
Posts: 21,230
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2/19/2015 1:42:00 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/19/2015 12:08:39 PM, Genghis_Khan wrote:
At 2/19/2015 11:27:00 AM, Unitomic wrote:
I know many of the "top" debaters rely on carefully hidden fallacies.

which is why you lost to one

http://i.imgur.com...
Kevin24018 : "He's just so mean it makes me want to ball up my fists and stamp on the ground"
Geogeer: "Nobody is dumb enough to become my protege."

7/14/16 = The Presidency Dies

DDO: THE MOVIE = http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...

VP of DDO from Dec 14th 2014 to Jan 1st 2015
donald.keller
Posts: 3,709
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2/19/2015 3:56:49 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/19/2015 12:08:39 PM, Genghis_Khan wrote:
At 2/19/2015 11:27:00 AM, Unitomic wrote:
I know many of the "top" debaters rely on carefully hidden fallacies.

which is why you lost to one

And your point is? This was widely unnecessary, dude.
And it is. I read both of her debates against him and 16K, fallacies everywhere. Her skills is in hiding them and using vote/conformity-bait.
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