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Voting Issue Discussion

bluesteel
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2/17/2015 11:14:25 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Should it be required to award argument points? Do you consider the other points just supplementary to awarding arguments, or should someone be allowed to award just sources or just S&G?

What about someone who awards ZERO points to either side? (There is a particular user on DDO who does this every time he votes). Should those votes be removed?

Part of my concern comes from the problem of there being a voting leaderboard and the incentive to climb it by casting votes without awarding the most important point (arguments), or without awarding any points at all.

What do you guys think?
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)
Maikuru
Posts: 9,112
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2/17/2015 12:05:02 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
So long as the vote is justified, it doesn't matter to me what category the points are for, or if any points are awarded at all. Unjustified votes should be dealt with on a case by case basis.

Voting just to climb the leaderboard is a pretty sad thing. Such people should be left alone, as that leaderboard is likely all they have in life.
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Genghis_Khan
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2/17/2015 12:13:17 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/17/2015 12:05:02 PM, Maikuru wrote:
So long as the vote is justified, it doesn't matter to me what category the points are for, or if any points are awarded at all. Unjustified votes should be dealt with on a case by case basis.

Voting just to climb the leaderboard is a pretty sad thing. Such people should be left alone, as that leaderboard is likely all they have in life.

wow none of the top four people on the leaderboard are considered to be good voters...
anything your heart desires
whiteflame
Posts: 1,378
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2/17/2015 1:20:08 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/17/2015 1:15:43 PM, xXCryptoXx wrote:
I didn't know people cared about the voting leaderboard.

Actually, does DDO even have a voting leaderboard?

Yeah, it does:

http://www.debate.org...

Not really sure why people care about it, tbh.
Enji
Posts: 1,022
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2/17/2015 1:50:08 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
http://www.debate.org...

For discussion purposes, here's a sample vote of mine where I awarded Conduct and S&G but not Arguments. For context, the vote ended up providing the extra points Pro needed for the win, however when I cast it Pro was still losing.

On the one hand, non-arguments points can be used by voters to unfairly weight certain votes more than others or to favour one debater over another. For example, here's one debate which I appear to have lost by a fairly significant margin: http://www.debate.org... . In actuality, 6 arguments votes were cast for me and 7 for my opponent (ignoring countered votes and counters, 4v5): a margin of one vote. Sources points are what gave the appearance of a much larger gap between me and my opponent.

On the other hand, I think there are sometimes good reasons to award non-arguments points even when you don't award arguments points. In the sample vote above, Con's poor use of commas directly affected my ability to make sense of his arguments. Similarly, misrepresenting or making up opponents' claims (as when dannyc allegedly quotes RyuuKyuzo stating "This is about epistemology." -- not a statement Ryuu ever makes) and directly quoting other sources without giving indication that the statement isn't your own is a breach of debate conduct which should be penalised.

I don't think arguments points should be required in a vote, however maybe including a reason in your RFD for not voting on arguments should be required.
bsh1
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2/17/2015 2:49:38 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/17/2015 11:14:25 AM, bluesteel wrote:
Should it be required to award argument points? Do you consider the other points just supplementary to awarding arguments, or should someone be allowed to award just sources or just S&G?

I don't think it should be required to award argument points, for a variety or reasons. I may feel, for instance, that the arguments are too close to award, but I may find differences in conduct or spelling that are worthy of noting on the ballot. Another case might be when I voted on DK's debate, and simply lacked the time to write an RFD justifying my argument points, so I only wrote a justification for the S/G points.
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bsh1
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2/17/2015 2:50:47 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
What about someone who awards ZERO points to either side?

I think that's fine. It harms no one, and allows people to give feedback on the debate without actually voting or to cast null votes on debates that specifically ask for null votes. I honestly don't see any harm in allowing them to stand.
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"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

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bsh1
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2/17/2015 2:53:22 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Part of my concern comes from the problem of there being a voting leaderboard and the incentive to climb it by casting votes without awarding the most important point (arguments), or without awarding any points at all.

I think this concern is a bit overblown...I cannot imagine that many people are trying to climb the voting board in the fashion, esp. since it's not one that is very important in comparison to the debate's leaderboard or forum's leaderboard. And even if they were trying to climb it that way, it may be slightly dishonest, but I don't think it's wrong.

Unless you're willing to ban threads like "last comment wins"--which people use to spam the forum's leaderboards--I don't think you can ban null votes.
Live Long and Prosper

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"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

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Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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2/17/2015 2:54:39 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/17/2015 11:14:25 AM, bluesteel wrote:
Should it be required to award argument points? Do you consider the other points just supplementary to awarding arguments, or should someone be allowed to award just sources or just S&G?
I think arguments ought to be worth more, perhaps 4 of the 7, but I see no reason why a decision for arguments must come. Similarly, I see no reasons why S&G or sources MUST be applied, either.
However, reasons for a lack of decision should be given.

What about someone who awards ZERO points to either side? (There is a particular user on DDO who does this every time he votes). Should those votes be removed?
If there is no stated reason why a determination could not be made, no, they should not be removed.

Part of my concern comes from the problem of there being a voting leaderboard and the incentive to climb it by casting votes without awarding the most important point (arguments), or without awarding any points at all.

What do you guys think?
I don't care about leaderboard, and if it is that important to them, let them have it.
However, they still need to justify their vote, points or none.
My work here is, finally, done.
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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2/17/2015 2:56:10 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/17/2015 2:53:22 PM, bsh1 wrote:
Part of my concern comes from the problem of there being a voting leaderboard and the incentive to climb it by casting votes without awarding the most important point (arguments), or without awarding any points at all.

I think this concern is a bit overblown...I cannot imagine that many people are trying to climb the voting board in the fashion, esp. since it's not one that is very important in comparison to the debate's leaderboard or forum's leaderboard. And even if they were trying to climb it that way, it may be slightly dishonest, but I don't think it's wrong.
Are you saying dishonesty is not wrong?

Unless you're willing to ban threads like "last comment wins"--which people use to spam the forum's leaderboards--I don't think you can ban null votes.
Or the games forum in general.
My work here is, finally, done.
bsh1
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2/17/2015 3:00:42 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/17/2015 2:56:10 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 2/17/2015 2:53:22 PM, bsh1 wrote:
Part of my concern comes from the problem of there being a voting leaderboard and the incentive to climb it by casting votes without awarding the most important point (arguments), or without awarding any points at all.

I think this concern is a bit overblown...I cannot imagine that many people are trying to climb the voting board in the fashion, esp. since it's not one that is very important in comparison to the debate's leaderboard or forum's leaderboard. And even if they were trying to climb it that way, it may be slightly dishonest, but I don't think it's wrong.
Are you saying dishonesty is not wrong?

On the scale of immorality, being "slightly dishonest" isn't wrong enough to really light up my radar.

Unless you're willing to ban threads like "last comment wins"--which people use to spam the forum's leaderboards--I don't think you can ban null votes.
Or the games forum in general.

True.
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"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

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Maikuru
Posts: 9,112
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2/17/2015 3:16:58 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/17/2015 1:20:08 PM, whiteflame wrote:
At 2/17/2015 1:15:43 PM, xXCryptoXx wrote:
I didn't know people cared about the voting leaderboard.

Actually, does DDO even have a voting leaderboard?

Yeah, it does:

http://www.debate.org...

Not really sure why people care about it, tbh.

The same reason we have a forum leaderboard, I guess. People need points just for showing up.
"You assume I wouldn't want to burn this whole place to the ground."
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SamStevens
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2/17/2015 3:23:40 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/17/2015 11:14:25 AM, bluesteel wrote:
Should it be required to award argument points? Do you consider the other points just supplementary to awarding arguments, or should someone be allowed to award just sources or just S&G?

What about someone who awards ZERO points to either side? (There is a particular user on DDO who does this every time he votes). Should those votes be removed?

Those votes should be removed. They serve no purpose.

Part of my concern comes from the problem of there being a voting leaderboard and the incentive to climb it by casting votes without awarding the most important point (arguments), or without awarding any points at all.

What do you guys think?
"This is the true horror of religion. It allows perfectly decent and sane people to believe by the billions, what only lunatics could believe on their own." Sam Harris
Life asked Death "Why do people love me but hate you?"
Death responded: "Because you are a beautiful lie, and I am the painful truth."
bsh1
Posts: 27,503
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2/17/2015 3:30:22 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/17/2015 3:23:40 PM, SamStevens wrote:
At 2/17/2015 11:14:25 AM, bluesteel wrote:
Should it be required to award argument points? Do you consider the other points just supplementary to awarding arguments, or should someone be allowed to award just sources or just S&G?

What about someone who awards ZERO points to either side? (There is a particular user on DDO who does this every time he votes). Should those votes be removed?

Those votes should be removed. They serve no purpose.

But they also don't harm anyone.

They also do serve a purpose:

I have done debates just for fun, and which me and my opponent agreed to tie the debate. Votes that don't assign points serve the purpose of giving us feedback without violating our request for a tied outcome.

Similarly, I might feel to biased to vote on a debate about gay rights, so I might leave an RFD but not assign any points. I want to give feedback, but I just don't trust myself to assign points.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

Follow the DDOlympics
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bsh1
Posts: 27,503
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2/17/2015 3:31:17 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/17/2015 1:20:08 PM, whiteflame wrote:
At 2/17/2015 1:15:43 PM, xXCryptoXx wrote:
I didn't know people cared about the voting leaderboard.

Actually, does DDO even have a voting leaderboard?

Yeah, it does:

http://www.debate.org...

Not really sure why people care about it, tbh.

I don't think people do care about, which is why I don't see why there really needs to be any change.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

Follow the DDOlympics
: http://www.debate.org...

Open Debate Topics Project: http://www.debate.org...
whiteflame
Posts: 1,378
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2/17/2015 3:35:25 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/17/2015 3:31:17 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 2/17/2015 1:20:08 PM, whiteflame wrote:
At 2/17/2015 1:15:43 PM, xXCryptoXx wrote:
I didn't know people cared about the voting leaderboard.

Actually, does DDO even have a voting leaderboard?

Yeah, it does:

http://www.debate.org...

Not really sure why people care about it, tbh.

I don't think people do care about, which is why I don't see why there really needs to be any change.

Yeah, I agree with that. Besides, I haven't seen anyone really using this method to up their vote count. Some will just vote on a lot of debates where there are mostly forfeits, making their vote incredibly simple and boosting their numbers, but that serves a purpose too.
bsh1
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2/17/2015 3:37:00 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/17/2015 3:35:25 PM, whiteflame wrote:
At 2/17/2015 3:31:17 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 2/17/2015 1:20:08 PM, whiteflame wrote:
At 2/17/2015 1:15:43 PM, xXCryptoXx wrote:
I didn't know people cared about the voting leaderboard.

Actually, does DDO even have a voting leaderboard?

Yeah, it does:

http://www.debate.org...

Not really sure why people care about it, tbh.

I don't think people do care about, which is why I don't see why there really needs to be any change.

Yeah, I agree with that. Besides, I haven't seen anyone really using this method to up their vote count. Some will just vote on a lot of debates where there are mostly forfeits, making their vote incredibly simple and boosting their numbers, but that serves a purpose too.

Agreed, 100%.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

Follow the DDOlympics
: http://www.debate.org...

Open Debate Topics Project: http://www.debate.org...
SamStevens
Posts: 3,819
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2/17/2015 3:39:51 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/17/2015 3:30:22 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 2/17/2015 3:23:40 PM, SamStevens wrote:
At 2/17/2015 11:14:25 AM, bluesteel wrote:
Should it be required to award argument points? Do you consider the other points just supplementary to awarding arguments, or should someone be allowed to award just sources or just S&G?

What about someone who awards ZERO points to either side? (There is a particular user on DDO who does this every time he votes). Should those votes be removed?

Those votes should be removed. They serve no purpose.

But they also don't harm anyone.

They also do serve a purpose:

I have done debates just for fun, and which me and my opponent agreed to tie the debate. Votes that don't assign points serve the purpose of giving us feedback without violating our request for a tied outcome.

Similarly, I might feel to biased to vote on a debate about gay rights, so I might leave an RFD but not assign any points. I want to give feedback, but I just don't trust myself to assign points.

Define vote: a formal indication of a choice between[with reference to a choice or differentiation involving two or more things being considered together. "if you have to choose between two or three different options"] two or more candidates or courses of action, expressed typically through a ballot or a show of hands or by voice.

If no one is picking a side, why should they place a vote? Couldn't their feed back be posted in the comments section of the debate?

Definitions were provided by Google.
https://www.google.com...
https://www.google.com...
"This is the true horror of religion. It allows perfectly decent and sane people to believe by the billions, what only lunatics could believe on their own." Sam Harris
Life asked Death "Why do people love me but hate you?"
Death responded: "Because you are a beautiful lie, and I am the painful truth."
YYW
Posts: 36,252
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2/17/2015 3:41:33 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/17/2015 11:14:25 AM, bluesteel wrote:
Should it be required to award argument points? Do you consider the other points just supplementary to awarding arguments, or should someone be allowed to award just sources or just S&G?

What about someone who awards ZERO points to either side? (There is a particular user on DDO who does this every time he votes). Should those votes be removed?

Part of my concern comes from the problem of there being a voting leaderboard and the incentive to climb it by casting votes without awarding the most important point (arguments), or without awarding any points at all.

What do you guys think?

I think voting based on conduct alone is stupid, and counterintuitive to the function of debate. If the only standard being is who is nicer, I could more or less pretend to be Canadian for the entire debate... and win, simply by having a polite and considerate discussion -not a debate.

I really don't care about the leaderboard, though. What I care about are quality votes, that are fairly cast. I think a voter who votes with the purpose of rising on the leaderboard is an issue in and of itself.
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bsh1
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2/17/2015 3:43:24 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/17/2015 3:39:51 PM, SamStevens wrote:
At 2/17/2015 3:30:22 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 2/17/2015 3:23:40 PM, SamStevens wrote:
At 2/17/2015 11:14:25 AM, bluesteel wrote:
Should it be required to award argument points? Do you consider the other points just supplementary to awarding arguments, or should someone be allowed to award just sources or just S&G?

What about someone who awards ZERO points to either side? (There is a particular user on DDO who does this every time he votes). Should those votes be removed?

Those votes should be removed. They serve no purpose.

But they also don't harm anyone.

They also do serve a purpose:

I have done debates just for fun, and which me and my opponent agreed to tie the debate. Votes that don't assign points serve the purpose of giving us feedback without violating our request for a tied outcome.

Similarly, I might feel to biased to vote on a debate about gay rights, so I might leave an RFD but not assign any points. I want to give feedback, but I just don't trust myself to assign points.

Define vote: a formal indication of a choice between[with reference to a choice or differentiation involving two or more things being considered together. "if you have to choose between two or three different options"] two or more candidates or courses of action, expressed typically through a ballot or a show of hands or by voice.

That is a great definition for an election, but it doesn't really describe voting on DDO well, where people abstain because of biases and where they often assign points rather than picking a winner in a straight up-down system. Ultimately, a vote is a means of conveying an RFD--and I think that can be done without assigning points.
If no one is picking a side, why should they place a vote? Couldn't their feed back be posted in the comments section of the debate?

Sure, but in a debate I did with Harder (one we agreed to tie), there were more than 200 comments. Putting your feedback in a vote rather than in the comments makes sure its more easily found and referenced, and not buried in a sea of other comments.
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"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

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SamStevens
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2/17/2015 3:46:07 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/17/2015 3:43:24 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 2/17/2015 3:39:51 PM, SamStevens wrote:
At 2/17/2015 3:30:22 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 2/17/2015 3:23:40 PM, SamStevens wrote:
At 2/17/2015 11:14:25 AM, bluesteel wrote:
Should it be required to award argument points? Do you consider the other points just supplementary to awarding arguments, or should someone be allowed to award just sources or just S&G?

What about someone who awards ZERO points to either side? (There is a particular user on DDO who does this every time he votes). Should those votes be removed?

Those votes should be removed. They serve no purpose.

But they also don't harm anyone.

They also do serve a purpose:

I have done debates just for fun, and which me and my opponent agreed to tie the debate. Votes that don't assign points serve the purpose of giving us feedback without violating our request for a tied outcome.

Similarly, I might feel to biased to vote on a debate about gay rights, so I might leave an RFD but not assign any points. I want to give feedback, but I just don't trust myself to assign points.

Define vote: a formal indication of a choice between[with reference to a choice or differentiation involving two or more things being considered together. "if you have to choose between two or three different options"] two or more candidates or courses of action, expressed typically through a ballot or a show of hands or by voice.

That is a great definition for an election, but it doesn't really describe voting on DDO well, where people abstain because of biases and where they often assign points rather than picking a winner in a straight up-down system. Ultimately, a vote is a means of conveying an RFD--and I think that can be done without assigning points.

Good point. My views have been changed.

If no one is picking a side, why should they place a vote? Couldn't their feed back be posted in the comments section of the debate?

Sure, but in a debate I did with Harder (one we agreed to tie), there were more than 200 comments. Putting your feedback in a vote rather than in the comments makes sure its more easily found and referenced, and not buried in a sea of other comments.

I have no argument here.
"This is the true horror of religion. It allows perfectly decent and sane people to believe by the billions, what only lunatics could believe on their own." Sam Harris
Life asked Death "Why do people love me but hate you?"
Death responded: "Because you are a beautiful lie, and I am the painful truth."
bsh1
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2/17/2015 3:47:17 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/17/2015 3:46:07 PM, SamStevens wrote:

Good point. My views have been changed.

Thank you :) Sweet.
Live Long and Prosper

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"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

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: http://www.debate.org...

Open Debate Topics Project: http://www.debate.org...
Envisage
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2/17/2015 5:23:08 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/17/2015 11:14:25 AM, bluesteel wrote:
Should it be required to award argument points? Do you consider the other points just supplementary to awarding arguments, or should someone be allowed to award just sources or just S&G?

I would only agree as far as we cant have a situation where people scour through a debate, find spelling mistakes, or lack of sources, and vote purely based on that. Since that is going to seriously skew the results if that happens in any large degree. Also it kills the spirit of the debate. Personally I think it's retarded that over half of the points allocated are not from the quality of arguments... which are the main feature of virtually any debate. The 7 point system just plain sux...

Howveer I am against the idea that all null-votes should be dissallowed. People tie debates all the time foir legitimate reasons, and provide useful RFDs with it. It would be a loss to remove that.

What about someone who awards ZERO points to either side? (There is a particular user on DDO who does this every time he votes). Should those votes be removed?

The harm/impact of this is virtually nil. So implementing any system which causes any inconvenience for the purpose of mitigating this I would be strongly against.

Part of my concern comes from the problem of there being a voting leaderboard and the incentive to climb it by casting votes without awarding the most important point (arguments), or without awarding any points at all.

What do you guys think?