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Voting Issues Discussion: troll debates

bluesteel
Posts: 12,301
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3/13/2015 7:38:43 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
My current thoughts on troll debates are that if a debate is explicitly labeled as a troll debate, votes should not be moderated. I really don't know what standard to apply.

For example, this debate: http://www.debate.org...

I think Pro clearly made more of an *effort,* but some people think Con did a better job trolling. If trolling is used in the sense of annoying Pro, Con did do a better job trolling. If trolling just means being funnier, then Pro probably should have won.

Perhaps intentionally forfeiting is even a better form of trolling. Is voting for a side for forfeiting all the rounds permissible? I don't really know what makes a vote valid or invalid on a troll debate.

If you disagree with me, I'm willing to allow DDO to draft official standards for troll debates, such as:

Troll debates should be judged by determining who was funnier. A vote that fails to address who was funnier is invalid.

The same is true for rap debates. While I will review votes on these to determine whether some sort of explanation was offered, the review will not be very stringent because there is no standard for how to judge a rap debate. Again, if DDO wants to draft more explicit standards, I'll enforce them, but until then, moderator review will be perfunctory.

Same for drawing debates, singing debates, "hotter model" debates, and any other non-standard debate. Review will be highly deferential, unless more explicit standards are drafted.

What do you all think of this policy? Is it fair? Do you want to see these types of debates moderated more stringently? Do you note care? Any feedback is welcome.
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Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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3/13/2015 7:47:15 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Troll debates and contest debates shouldn't have moderated votes in my opinion.

If it is a silly topic but one or both sides are taking it seriously, normal standards should apply.
BLAHthedebator
Posts: 982
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3/13/2015 7:49:18 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/13/2015 7:38:43 PM, bluesteel wrote:
My current thoughts on troll debates are that if a debate is explicitly labeled as a troll debate, votes should not be moderated. I really don't know what standard to apply.

For example, this debate: http://www.debate.org...

I think Pro clearly made more of an *effort,* but some people think Con did a better job trolling. If trolling is used in the sense of annoying Pro, Con did do a better job trolling. If trolling just means being funnier, then Pro probably should have won.

Perhaps intentionally forfeiting is even a better form of trolling. Is voting for a side for forfeiting all the rounds permissible? I don't really know what makes a vote valid or invalid on a troll debate.

I think it should be based on both criteria. Along with some others that I cannot think of.

If you disagree with me, I'm willing to allow DDO to draft official standards for troll debates, such as:

Troll debates should be judged by determining who was funnier. A vote that fails to address who was funnier is invalid.

Simply because one is funnier does not mean they are trolling. Telling jokes isn't actually trolling.

The same is true for rap debates. While I will review votes on these to determine whether some sort of explanation was offered, the review will not be very stringent because there is no standard for how to judge a rap debate. Again, if DDO wants to draft more explicit standards, I'll enforce them, but until then, moderator review will be perfunctory.

I think rap battles already have criteria...

Same for drawing debates, singing debates, "hotter model" debates, and any other non-standard debate. Review will be highly deferential, unless more explicit standards are drafted.

What do you all think of this policy? Is it fair? Do you want to see these types of debates moderated more stringently? Do you note care? Any feedback is welcome.

I think it's fair. I think it's preferred to think of criteria for these debates, but we can't judge them more stringently if there's no one to help think of the criteria.
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airmax1227
Posts: 13,240
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3/13/2015 7:51:40 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/13/2015 7:47:15 PM, Wylted wrote:
Troll debates and contest debates shouldn't have moderated votes in my opinion.


This has been the policy for the most part with a minimal standard applied... For an outright troll debate pretty much any vote is fine, and for rap battles and contest type things, it's been sufficient just to say who you thought did better... I think we'll likely stick to that but I think this discussion is worth having and I appreciate you sharing your opinion.

If it is a silly topic but one or both sides are taking it seriously, normal standards should apply.

I think this is an important distinction because there are less than serious-funny type topics that are argued in depth and with serious intent and wouldn't be considered the same as above.
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YYW
Posts: 36,271
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3/13/2015 7:57:09 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I think troll debates should be outside the scope of vote moderation, unless the vote manifests a clear intent only to vote bomb. The whole point of having a troll debate is to be silly, and silliness isn't really conducive to evaluation by any standard that was reasonable, if any standard could be established.

That said, there is an issue in delineating troll from non-troll debates where (1) the debate's nature isn't clear, (2) both debaters seem to be making arguments, and (3) those arguments are not, on their face, the stuff of silliness or absurdity.

I think that the default, to ensure fairness to each debater, should be to assume that unless overwhelmingly clear that a debate is a troll debate, votes on it should be evaluated by the same standard that any other debate is evaluated.

That said, overwhelming clarity need not be lost when a person who accepts a debate that was clearly a troll debate doesn't debate as if the debate were a troll debate; likewise, a debate couldn't really be called a troll debate where the instigator was serious from the first round and some miscreant accepted the debate with the sole and explicit purpose of trolling it.

So, it would be my contention that the substance of instigator's first round and the topic of the resolution itself (read: the stuff of introductions) should be used to determine whether a debate is a troll debate or not. For example, if a debater said "no trolling" in the first round, that's an overwhelmingly clear indication that they're not trolling. However, if the resolution is titled something absurd like "Kim Jong Un should be referred, henceforth, as 'fatboy kim'," that is obviously a troll debate.

And, to the extent that a debate is a troll debate... its votes should be excluded from moderator evaluation unless the vote clearly manifests an intent to vote bomb. For example, suppose thett and raisor debate over whether Vladimir Putin should have sex with a kodiak bear-a female bear, of course, because Putin is definitely not gay. Obviously, that is a troll debate. But, suppose that I, the miscreant, decide that I hate thett so I post a vote that says "Fvck you, thett!" Clearly, that vote manifests an intent to vote bomb, and should be removed.

I hope this has been helpful.
Tsar of DDO
Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
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3/13/2015 8:06:14 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
For a troll debate I use the values of humor and entertainment to decide the winner.
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
YYW
Posts: 36,271
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3/13/2015 8:13:33 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Troll debates should be judged by determining who was funnier. A vote that fails to address who was funnier is invalid.

Based on what... an objectively reasonable sense of humor? I'm not sure that such a thing exists. Based on my subjective sense of humor? That confers an unfair advantage to people who include LOLcat memes and dark, dry humor.

Invariably, with regard to troll debates, who is subjectively funnier is how they get evaluated. That's more or less unavoidable. But if we're just requiring that a debater say who is funnier then there really isn't any point in having a standard at all.

The same is true for rap debates. While I will review votes on these to determine whether some sort of explanation was offered, the review will not be very stringent because there is no standard for how to judge a rap debate. Again, if DDO wants to draft more explicit standards, I'll enforce them, but until then, moderator review will be perfunctory.

And just like in troll debates with regard to the issue of who is funnier, there really isn't a way to avoid subjectivity here; and the way any standard is going to be implemented is to evaluate only whether or not a judge said the words "I thought [(x) debater] was better because [reasons]." If that's the best we can do, then what's the point of even having a standard? Shall we evaluate whether subjective reasons are plausible? "I thought Mikal was better because his profile pic made me hard." satisfies that criteria as surely as "I thought thett was better because the Pope sh!ts in the woods."

Now, if you want to go a step further and require that the reasons for judgment be "plausibly connected" to the rap battle, that's fine... but drawing the line between a "plausible connection" and an implausible connection might be hard to implement. I also think it's more complicated than it has to be. My alternative here would be to just delete votes that are clearly vote bombs. All votes that are not clearly vote bombs are permitted, no matter how idiotic they may be. I think that's sort of consistent with the level of reasonably acceptable risk in troll debating.

Same for drawing debates, singing debates, "hotter model" debates, and any other non-standard debate. Review will be highly deferential, unless more explicit standards are drafted.

Confident as I am in my ability to determine who is hotter, and to speak with reasonable authority as to who has artistic talent and who does not... I am still of the view here that the "no vote bombs" protocol should apply... and that's it.
Tsar of DDO
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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3/13/2015 8:13:45 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I actually try to use the same standards I would in a regular debate to judge troll debates, unless only one side was funny. I consider not being funny a serious conduct violation.
Daltonian
Posts: 4,797
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3/13/2015 8:35:17 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I don't think voting con on that debate was at all justified. Troll debates are not just platforms entitled "TROLL HERE", they're actually meant to consist of trolling and being humourous through "debating" itself, hence the name.

They'd be called troll contests, not troll debates, if we were not expected to take arguments in to account at all. They'd also be spam.

The only difference between a troll debate and a regular debate, IMHO, is that humour is being taken in to account when judging args.
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F-16_Fighting_Falcon
Posts: 18,324
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3/13/2015 8:50:47 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
YYW and Airmax pretty much said what I wanted to say. I'll add to the chorus that debates explicitly labelled as troll debates, rap debates, and debates where the instigator makes RFDs optional should not be moderated.

A large part of moderation seems to be to correctly evaluate debates to at least IRL debate standard. That excludes troll/rap/drawing debates entirely. Even joke debates like Brian Eggleston's should fall in that category.
imabench
Posts: 21,206
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3/13/2015 9:26:45 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
As an expert on troll debates, whether it be making them, hijacking them, or voting on them, I think that I can offer some expertise.

At 3/13/2015 7:38:43 PM, bluesteel wrote:
My current thoughts on troll debates are that if a debate is explicitly labeled as a troll debate, votes should not be moderated. I really don't know what standard to apply.

For example, this debate: http://www.debate.org...

I think Pro clearly made more of an *effort,* but some people think Con did a better job trolling. If trolling is used in the sense of annoying Pro, Con did do a better job trolling. If trolling just means being funnier, then Pro probably should have won.

The point of a troll debate IS to be the funnier side. Trolling around here is pretty much defined as the artful act of being hilarious while still posing as an idiot.

Perhaps intentionally forfeiting is even a better form of trolling.

No, thats being lazy, and a d*ck.

Is voting for a side for forfeiting all the rounds permissible? I don't really know what makes a vote valid or invalid on a troll debate.

If neither side even makes an effort to be funny then its not a valid troll debate.

If you disagree with me, I'm willing to allow DDO to draft official standards for troll debates, such as:

Troll debates should be judged by determining who was funnier. A vote that fails to address who was funnier is invalid.

^ There you go right there.

The same is true for rap debates. While I will review votes on these to determine whether some sort of explanation was offered, the review will not be very stringent because there is no standard for how to judge a rap debate. Again, if DDO wants to draft more explicit standards, I'll enforce them, but until then, moderator review will be perfunctory.

Same for drawing debates, singing debates, "hotter model" debates, and any other non-standard debate. Review will be highly deferential, unless more explicit standards are drafted.

What do you all think of this policy? Is it fair? Do you want to see these types of debates moderated more stringently? Do you note care? Any feedback is welcome.
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Mikal
Posts: 11,270
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3/13/2015 9:28:45 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/13/2015 7:38:43 PM, bluesteel wrote:
My current thoughts on troll debates are that if a debate is explicitly labeled as a troll debate, votes should not be moderated. I really don't know what standard to apply.

For example, this debate: http://www.debate.org...

I think Pro clearly made more of an *effort,* but some people think Con did a better job trolling. If trolling is used in the sense of annoying Pro, Con did do a better job trolling. If trolling just means being funnier, then Pro probably should have won.

Perhaps intentionally forfeiting is even a better form of trolling. Is voting for a side for forfeiting all the rounds permissible? I don't really know what makes a vote valid or invalid on a troll debate.

If you disagree with me, I'm willing to allow DDO to draft official standards for troll debates, such as:

Troll debates should be judged by determining who was funnier. A vote that fails to address who was funnier is invalid.

The same is true for rap debates. While I will review votes on these to determine whether some sort of explanation was offered, the review will not be very stringent because there is no standard for how to judge a rap debate. Again, if DDO wants to draft more explicit standards, I'll enforce them, but until then, moderator review will be perfunctory.

Same for drawing debates, singing debates, "hotter model" debates, and any other non-standard debate. Review will be highly deferential, unless more explicit standards are drafted.

What do you all think of this policy? Is it fair? Do you want to see these types of debates moderated more stringently? Do you note care? Any feedback is welcome.

I can draft standards for rap battles
donald.keller
Posts: 3,709
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3/14/2015 8:49:53 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I think they should make Troll Debates a separate type of debate all together so losing doesn't count against your record.

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