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The Case for Porn, by Blade of Truth

Blade-of-Truth
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3/23/2015 4:15:32 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I was inspired...

http://www.debate.org...

Please feel free to share your thoughts or opinions on the matter in the respective thread.
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ResponsiblyIrresponsible
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3/23/2015 4:17:20 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/23/2015 4:15:32 PM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
I was inspired...

http://www.debate.org...

Please feel free to share your thoughts or opinions on the matter in the respective thread.

First cats and then porn!

The BOT character is totally mafia.
~ResponsiblyIrresponsible

DDO's Economics Messiah
Blade-of-Truth
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3/23/2015 4:19:08 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/23/2015 4:17:20 PM, ResponsiblyIrresponsible wrote:
At 3/23/2015 4:15:32 PM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
I was inspired...

http://www.debate.org...

Please feel free to share your thoughts or opinions on the matter in the respective thread.

First cats and then porn!

The BOT character is totally mafia.

Hey... I present a pretty good case! Read it before you knock it mister, lol.
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ResponsiblyIrresponsible
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3/23/2015 4:21:32 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/23/2015 4:19:08 PM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
At 3/23/2015 4:17:20 PM, ResponsiblyIrresponsible wrote:
At 3/23/2015 4:15:32 PM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
I was inspired...

http://www.debate.org...

Please feel free to share your thoughts or opinions on the matter in the respective thread.

First cats and then porn!

The BOT character is totally mafia.

Hey... I present a pretty good case! Read it before you knock it mister, lol.

I totally will, but I always thought porn was sort of a case-closed thing.
~ResponsiblyIrresponsible

DDO's Economics Messiah
Blade-of-Truth
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3/23/2015 4:22:42 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/23/2015 4:21:32 PM, ResponsiblyIrresponsible wrote:
At 3/23/2015 4:19:08 PM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
At 3/23/2015 4:17:20 PM, ResponsiblyIrresponsible wrote:
At 3/23/2015 4:15:32 PM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
I was inspired...

http://www.debate.org...

Please feel free to share your thoughts or opinions on the matter in the respective thread.

First cats and then porn!

The BOT character is totally mafia.

Hey... I present a pretty good case! Read it before you knock it mister, lol.

I totally will, but I always thought porn was sort of a case-closed thing.

I'm re-opening the case ;p
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ResponsiblyIrresponsible
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3/23/2015 4:25:25 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/23/2015 4:22:42 PM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
At 3/23/2015 4:21:32 PM, ResponsiblyIrresponsible wrote:
At 3/23/2015 4:19:08 PM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
At 3/23/2015 4:17:20 PM, ResponsiblyIrresponsible wrote:
At 3/23/2015 4:15:32 PM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
I was inspired...

http://www.debate.org...

Please feel free to share your thoughts or opinions on the matter in the respective thread.

First cats and then porn!

The BOT character is totally mafia.

Hey... I present a pretty good case! Read it before you knock it mister, lol.

I totally will, but I always thought porn was sort of a case-closed thing.

I'm re-opening the case ;p

Did you read Cuber's debate? He topped both 16k and me in sources in his first round alone.
~ResponsiblyIrresponsible

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Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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3/23/2015 4:36:49 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/23/2015 4:15:32 PM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
I was inspired...

http://www.debate.org...

Please feel free to share your thoughts or opinions on the matter in the respective thread.

You don't have to sell porn. Porn sells it's self.
Absentia
Posts: 18
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3/23/2015 5:53:55 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/23/2015 4:15:32 PM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
I was inspired...

http://www.debate.org...

Please feel free to share your thoughts or opinions on the matter in the respective thread.

Why? Why can't we just do it here?
It's sad when you cry alone in your room and you realize that no one else realizes how depressed you.

I fear nothing except failure.

<3 Lee001
Blade-of-Truth
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3/23/2015 5:54:22 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/23/2015 4:25:25 PM, ResponsiblyIrresponsible wrote:
At 3/23/2015 4:22:42 PM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
At 3/23/2015 4:21:32 PM, ResponsiblyIrresponsible wrote:
At 3/23/2015 4:19:08 PM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
At 3/23/2015 4:17:20 PM, ResponsiblyIrresponsible wrote:
At 3/23/2015 4:15:32 PM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
I was inspired...

http://www.debate.org...

Please feel free to share your thoughts or opinions on the matter in the respective thread.

First cats and then porn!

The BOT character is totally mafia.

Hey... I present a pretty good case! Read it before you knock it mister, lol.

I totally will, but I always thought porn was sort of a case-closed thing.

I'm re-opening the case ;p

Did you read Cuber's debate? He topped both 16k and me in sources in his first round alone.

Lol, no I didn't. I'm actually surprised to hear he did a debate over porn, I'll def check it out!
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Blade-of-Truth
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3/23/2015 6:49:40 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/23/2015 5:53:55 PM, Absentia wrote:
At 3/23/2015 4:15:32 PM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
I was inspired...

http://www.debate.org...

Please feel free to share your thoughts or opinions on the matter in the respective thread.

Why? Why can't we just do it here?

I feel like the main forums isn't the place for this kind of discussion since the discussion itself has nothing to do with debate issues/general DDO stuff.

Similar to what people do now with their fan-fictions by posting the actual story in the appropriate section while simply sharing the announcement in the main section. Since this wasn't DDO-related, I posted it in the Society section since I felt that's more appropriate of a location. I wanted a good discussion on the matter though, so I made the announcement here since this section is the most frequented, thus allowing for more members to see the location of the discussion and partake in it if they desire.
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bluesteel
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3/24/2015 12:26:10 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/23/2015 5:54:22 PM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
At 3/23/2015 4:25:25 PM, ResponsiblyIrresponsible wrote:

Did you read Cuber's debate? He topped both 16k and me in sources in his first round alone.

Lol, no I didn't. I'm actually surprised to hear he did a debate over porn, I'll def check it out!

zmike argued that: (1) porn increases aggression in society, (2) porn harms relationship, (3) porn is habit forming, (4) porn leads to warped views of sex, and (5) porn increases STDs.

(1) Porn increases aggression

zmike cited a ton of studies showing a correlation between porn use and aggression in men. However, the problem is that causation is reversed. Men who engage in sexual violence are very likely to use porn. If a man is extremely sexist or engages in violent behavior towards women, it is very likely that he also uses porn. A lot of men use porn (about 68%). The odds that any given man who is violent *does not* use porn is very low. It's hard to tell a causation story for why the mere viewing of porn causes a man to become more violent. If anything, it reduces the likelihood of rape or sexual violence because men who jack of regularly are sexually sated and feel less desire to take extreme actions in order to get off.

(2) Porn harms relationships

zmike has two types of evidence: (1) divorce attorneys say that porn is one factor in a large percentage of divorces, and (2) between 20-30% of women do not want their partners to look at porn. The problem with the statistic from divorce attorneys is that it doesn't say that porn is the *primary* factor. You can read a lot of divorce cases and you'll rarely see porn being mentioned at all. It's not a major reason people break up. It might be one *aspect* of dissatisfaction in relationships; in particular, in relationships that are already unhappy, the couple is unlikely to be having sex, so the man is more likely to rely more on porn. Increased porn use is a *symptom* of an unhappy relationship, not necessarily a cause. And even if 20% of women don't want their partners to look at porn, that still leaves: (a) 80% of women who are okay with it and realize it's healthy, and (b) all the single men whose only sexual outlet is porn.

(3) Porn is habit forming

Zmike's evidence for this is that porn use releases dopamine. So does sex and eating yummy food. Anything that is pleasurable can be somewhat addictive. Zmike's other evidence is that men who view the same porn videos receive decreasing levels of arousal from the same video over time. This isn't a bad thing; there's no reason people need to watch the same videos over and over again. The same is true for regular movies; it's less fun to watch Miss Congeniality the 2nd time than the 1st time. That's not proof that porn use is addictive. Even if people made a "habit" out of viewing porn, there's no proof that this particular habit is bad. Not all habits are bad. Going to the gym is habit forming. Running is habit forming because endorphins are addictive. But these are good habits. Zmike has to prove it's a bad habit.

(4) Porn leads to warped views of sex

I agree with this. Porn leads men to think that their penises are small because most penises in porn are huge. And porn focuses more on what men like than what women like. That doesn't mean it's bad. Porn is marketed to men, mostly. And what Zmike said is not true of all porn. Amateur porn is just normal couples having sex, and Pornhub and those sites have allowed more people to most amateur porn of themselves, rather than most porn being made by porn-production companies. The problem of porn leading to warped views of sex can be solved with a little education.

(5) Porn increases STDs

Zmike cites statistics showing porn stars have more STDs than the normal population. There's no proof however that they contracted the STD by shooting porn. Porn stars are generally people who really like sex. They have sex in their free time too. Porn production companies require porn stars to get regular testing, and the bigger companies are at risk of being sued if they allow STDs to spread to their stars. It also hurts their business if their major earners contract an STD and are therefore unable to work. They have an incentive to ensure that STDs are not being transferred on set. And even if porn stars get an STD on set, they know the risks of unprotected sex. It's their bodies and they can risk them however they want.

Zmike also argues that people who watch porn are more likely to try oral sex and anal sex, which he claims are more likely to transfer STDs. But he doesn't offer any evidence of causation. People who are more sexually adventurous are naturally more likely to view porn than people who are not. The causation is likely reversed here. People who are already sexually adventurous watch porn; watching porn doesn't cause women to be more receptive to anal sex. There's no explanation for why that would be the case. Even if it were, the risks of oral and anal sex can be minimized with sex education. This entire contention does not prove that porn is bad; it proves that the lack of sex education about how to minimize STD risk is bad.

Religion also causes women to be more likely to try anal sex so that their boyfriends don't technically take their virginity. "The poop hole is the loop hole." Is religion bad because it increases anal sex? Something doesn't become inherently bad because it correlates with anal sex.

So yeah, I don't think anything Zmike argued proves that porn is bad. It was a well thought out case, but I just don't think there is a viable argument that pornography is harmful to society.
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)
bluesteel
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3/24/2015 12:26:10 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/23/2015 5:54:22 PM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
At 3/23/2015 4:25:25 PM, ResponsiblyIrresponsible wrote:

Did you read Cuber's debate? He topped both 16k and me in sources in his first round alone.

Lol, no I didn't. I'm actually surprised to hear he did a debate over porn, I'll def check it out!

zmike argued that: (1) porn increases aggression in society, (2) porn harms relationship, (3) porn is habit forming, (4) porn leads to warped views of sex, and (5) porn increases STDs.

(1) Porn increases aggression

zmike cited a ton of studies showing a correlation between porn use and aggression in men. However, the problem is that causation is reversed. Men who engage in sexual violence are very likely to use porn. If a man is extremely sexist or engages in violent behavior towards women, it is very likely that he also uses porn. A lot of men use porn (about 68%). The odds that any given man who is violent *does not* use porn is very low. It's hard to tell a causation story for why the mere viewing of porn causes a man to become more violent. If anything, it reduces the likelihood of rape or sexual violence because men who jack of regularly are sexually sated and feel less desire to take extreme actions in order to get off.

(2) Porn harms relationships

zmike has two types of evidence: (1) divorce attorneys say that porn is one factor in a large percentage of divorces, and (2) between 20-30% of women do not want their partners to look at porn. The problem with the statistic from divorce attorneys is that it doesn't say that porn is the *primary* factor. You can read a lot of divorce cases and you'll rarely see porn being mentioned at all. It's not a major reason people break up. It might be one *aspect* of dissatisfaction in relationships; in particular, in relationships that are already unhappy, the couple is unlikely to be having sex, so the man is more likely to rely more on porn. Increased porn use is a *symptom* of an unhappy relationship, not necessarily a cause. And even if 20% of women don't want their partners to look at porn, that still leaves: (a) 80% of women who are okay with it and realize it's healthy, and (b) all the single men whose only sexual outlet is porn.

(3) Porn is habit forming

Zmike's evidence for this is that porn use releases dopamine. So does sex and eating yummy food. Anything that is pleasurable can be somewhat addictive. Zmike's other evidence is that men who view the same porn videos receive decreasing levels of arousal from the same video over time. This isn't a bad thing; there's no reason people need to watch the same videos over and over again. The same is true for regular movies; it's less fun to watch Miss Congeniality the 2nd time than the 1st time. That's not proof that porn use is addictive. Even if people made a "habit" out of viewing porn, there's no proof that this particular habit is bad. Not all habits are bad. Going to the gym is habit forming. Running is habit forming because endorphins are addictive. But these are good habits. Zmike has to prove it's a bad habit.

(4) Porn leads to warped views of sex

I agree with this. Porn leads men to think that their penises are small because most penises in porn are huge. And porn focuses more on what men like than what women like. That doesn't mean it's bad. Porn is marketed to men, mostly. And what Zmike said is not true of all porn. Amateur porn is just normal couples having sex, and Pornhub and those sites have allowed more people to most amateur porn of themselves, rather than most porn being made by porn-production companies. The problem of porn leading to warped views of sex can be solved with a little education.

(5) Porn increases STDs

Zmike cites statistics showing porn stars have more STDs than the normal population. There's no proof however that they contracted the STD by shooting porn. Porn stars are generally people who really like sex. They have sex in their free time too. Porn production companies require porn stars to get regular testing, and the bigger companies are at risk of being sued if they allow STDs to spread to their stars. It also hurts their business if their major earners contract an STD and are therefore unable to work. They have an incentive to ensure that STDs are not being transferred on set. And even if porn stars get an STD on set, they know the risks of unprotected sex. It's their bodies and they can risk them however they want.

Zmike also argues that people who watch porn are more likely to try oral sex and anal sex, which he claims are more likely to transfer STDs. But he doesn't offer any evidence of causation. People who are more sexually adventurous are naturally more likely to view porn than people who are not. The causation is likely reversed here. People who are already sexually adventurous watch porn; watching porn doesn't cause women to be more receptive to anal sex. There's no explanation for why that would be the case. Even if it were, the risks of oral and anal sex can be minimized with sex education. This entire contention does not prove that porn is bad; it proves that the lack of sex education about how to minimize STD risk is bad.

Religion also causes women to be more likely to try anal sex so that their boyfriends don't technically take their virginity. "The poop hole is the loop hole." Is religion bad because it increases anal sex? Something doesn't become inherently bad because it correlates with anal sex.

So yeah, I don't think anything Zmike argued proves that porn is bad. It was a well thought out case, but I just don't think there is a viable argument that pornography is harmful to society.
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)
Blade-of-Truth
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3/24/2015 1:30:37 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/24/2015 12:26:10 AM, bluesteel wrote:
zmike argued that: (1) porn increases aggression in society, (2) porn harms relationship, (3) porn is habit forming, (4) porn leads to warped views of sex, and (5) porn increases STDs.

(1) Porn increases aggression

zmike cited a ton of studies showing a correlation between porn use and aggression in men. However, the problem is that causation is reversed. Men who engage in sexual violence are very likely to use porn. If a man is extremely sexist or engages in violent behavior towards women, it is very likely that he also uses porn. A lot of men use porn (about 68%). The odds that any given man who is violent *does not* use porn is very low. It's hard to tell a causation story for why the mere viewing of porn causes a man to become more violent. If anything, it reduces the likelihood of rape or sexual violence because men who jack of regularly are sexually sated and feel less desire to take extreme actions in order to get off.

I fully agree. Well said.

(2) Porn harms relationships

zmike has two types of evidence: (1) divorce attorneys say that porn is one factor in a large percentage of divorces, and (2) between 20-30% of women do not want their partners to look at porn. The problem with the statistic from divorce attorneys is that it doesn't say that porn is the *primary* factor. You can read a lot of divorce cases and you'll rarely see porn being mentioned at all. It's not a major reason people break up. It might be one *aspect* of dissatisfaction in relationships; in particular, in relationships that are already unhappy, the couple is unlikely to be having sex, so the man is more likely to rely more on porn.

Naturally.

Increased porn use is a *symptom* of an unhappy relationship, not necessarily a cause. And even if 20% of women don't want their partners to look at porn, that still leaves: (a) 80% of women who are okay with it and realize it's healthy, and (b) all the single men whose only sexual outlet is porn.

I think the most compelling thing here is the fact that it's rarely listed as the main cause, if even a minor cause in the first place. I also fully agree in regards to unhappy relationships potentially leading to an increase in watching porn simply because the sexual needs aren't being met.

(3) Porn is habit forming

Zmike's evidence for this is that porn use releases dopamine. So does sex and eating yummy food. Anything that is pleasurable can be somewhat addictive. Zmike's other evidence is that men who view the same porn videos receive decreasing levels of arousal from the same video over time. This isn't a bad thing; there's no reason people need to watch the same videos over and over again. The same is true for regular movies; it's less fun to watch Miss Congeniality the 2nd time than the 1st time. That's not proof that porn use is addictive. Even if people made a "habit" out of viewing porn, there's no proof that this particular habit is bad. Not all habits are bad. Going to the gym is habit forming. Running is habit forming because endorphins are addictive. But these are good habits. Zmike has to prove it's a bad habit.

Agreed. I've been presented with that argument a few times now in the main thread and each time I am convinced more and more that it's a bogus argument. Unless it can be shown to be a bad habit, it falls short. I'm glad I heard this from you because I was having difficulty putting it into words myself.

(4) Porn leads to warped views of sex

I agree with this. Porn leads men to think that their penises are small because most penises in porn are huge. And porn focuses more on what men like than what women like. That doesn't mean it's bad. Porn is marketed to men, mostly. And what Zmike said is not true of all porn. Amateur porn is just normal couples having sex, and Pornhub and those sites have allowed more people to most amateur porn of themselves, rather than most porn being made by porn-production companies. The problem of porn leading to warped views of sex can be solved with a little education.

I fully agree that it can lead to warped views of sex. I suppose the only reason why I never viewed this as a negative is due to me knowing that those larger-than-average penises aren't something to get worked up about because those men are selected specifically for such videos. It's certainly no real reflection of the average size that most women are exposed to. With that said, I can see how more impressionable or naive minds could be impacted negatively by seeing such things, which could potentially lead to feelings of inadequacy within themselves. Ultimately you're right though, all it would take is a little education to put things back into perspective for those who might be affected negatively from seeing such things.

What's more interesting is the argument that porn focuses more on what men like. I agree with him in that regard to, but the interesting part is that now sites like Pornhub actually have their own sections solely "For Women", and in such sections feature videos of a much more intimate nature that actually appeals to women. I think it's neat that the porn industry is catching up in regards to equality in female appeal, lol.

(5) Porn increases STDs

Zmike cites statistics showing porn stars have more STDs than the normal population. There's no proof however that they contracted the STD by shooting porn. Porn stars are generally people who really like sex. They have sex in their free time too. Porn production companies require porn stars to get regular testing, and the bigger companies are at risk of being sued if they allow STDs to spread to their stars. It also hurts their business if their major earners contract an STD and are therefore unable to work. They have an incentive to ensure that STDs are not being transferred on set. And even if porn stars get an STD on set, they know the risks of unprotected sex. It's their bodies and they can risk them however they want.

This is the first time I've ever really seen a rebuttal for that argument. I think you're correct that they are more sexually active due to their natural enjoyment of it, and that such activity leads to a higher increase in both risk and contraction. You're also right about some of the bigger companies taking extra precautions against the risk of STD's amongst their stars. DetectableNinja said something in regards to bodily autonomy which seems similar to your last sentence, and I'm inclined to agree.

Zmike also argues that people who watch porn are more likely to try oral sex and anal sex, which he claims are more likely to transfer STDs. But he doesn't offer any evidence of causation. People who are more sexually adventurous are naturally more likely to view porn than people who are not. The causation is likely reversed here. People who are already sexually adventurous watch porn; watching porn doesn't cause women to be more receptive to anal sex. There's no explanation for why that would be the case. Even if it were, the risks of oral and anal sex can be minimized with sex education. This entire contention does not prove that porn is bad; it proves that the lack of sex education about how to minimize STD risk is bad.

Agreed.

Religion also causes women to be more likely to try anal sex so that their boyfriends don't technically take their virginity. "The poop hole is the loop hole." Is religion bad because it increases anal sex? Something doesn't become inherently bad because it correlates with anal sex.

Lmao...

So yeah, I don't think anything Zmike argued proves that porn is bad. It was a well thought out case, but I just don't think there is a viable argument that pornography is harmful to society.

I appreciate this summation and your rebuttals to his arguments. Definitely learned from it, and will certainly be utilizing some of these responses myself!
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WillYouMarryMe
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3/24/2015 8:58:33 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/24/2015 12:26:10 AM, bluesteel wrote:
At 3/23/2015 5:54:22 PM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
At 3/23/2015 4:25:25 PM, ResponsiblyIrresponsible wrote:

Did you read Cuber's debate? He topped both 16k and me in sources in his first round alone.

Lol, no I didn't. I'm actually surprised to hear he did a debate over porn, I'll def check it out!

zmike argued that: (1) porn increases aggression in society, (2) porn harms relationship, (3) porn is habit forming, (4) porn leads to warped views of sex, and (5) porn increases STDs.

(1) Porn increases aggression

zmike cited a ton of studies showing a correlation between porn use and aggression in men. However, the problem is that causation is reversed. Men who engage in sexual violence are very likely to use porn. If a man is extremely sexist or engages in violent behavior towards women, it is very likely that he also uses porn. A lot of men use porn (about 68%). The odds that any given man who is violent *does not* use porn is very low. It's hard to tell a causation story for why the mere viewing of porn causes a man to become more violent. If anything, it reduces the likelihood of rape or sexual violence because men who jack of regularly are sexually sated and feel less desire to take extreme actions in order to get off.

I don't think you're giving enough credit to zmike here. Literally half the debate was over whether or not it was a case of faulty causation; by the end of the debate, I think he had included sufficient causal evidence to conclude that the pornography played a significant role in increasing sexual aggression.


(2) Porn harms relationships

zmike has two types of evidence: (1) divorce attorneys say that porn is one factor in a large percentage of divorces, and (2) between 20-30% of women do not want their partners to look at porn. The problem with the statistic from divorce attorneys is that it doesn't say that porn is the *primary* factor. You can read a lot of divorce cases and you'll rarely see porn being mentioned at all. It's not a major reason people break up. It might be one *aspect* of dissatisfaction in relationships; in particular, in relationships that are already unhappy, the couple is unlikely to be having sex, so the man is more likely to rely more on porn. Increased porn use is a *symptom* of an unhappy relationship, not necessarily a cause. And even if 20% of women don't want their partners to look at porn, that still leaves: (a) 80% of women who are okay with it and realize it's healthy, and (b) all the single men whose only sexual outlet is porn.

That's a pretty good rebuttal.


(3) Porn is habit forming

Zmike's evidence for this is that porn use releases dopamine. So does sex and eating yummy food. Anything that is pleasurable can be somewhat addictive. Zmike's other evidence is that men who view the same porn videos receive decreasing levels of arousal from the same video over time. This isn't a bad thing; there's no reason people need to watch the same videos over and over again. The same is true for regular movies; it's less fun to watch Miss Congeniality the 2nd time than the 1st time. That's not proof that porn use is addictive. Even if people made a "habit" out of viewing porn, there's no proof that this particular habit is bad. Not all habits are bad. Going to the gym is habit forming. Running is habit forming because endorphins are addictive. But these are good habits. Zmike has to prove it's a bad habit.

Agreed. I still am not sure where he was trying to go with this argument.


(4) Porn leads to warped views of sex

I agree with this. Porn leads men to think that their penises are small because most penises in porn are huge. And porn focuses more on what men like than what women like. That doesn't mean it's bad. Porn is marketed to men, mostly. And what Zmike said is not true of all porn. Amateur porn is just normal couples having sex, and Pornhub and those sites have allowed more people to most amateur porn of themselves, rather than most porn being made by porn-production companies. The problem of porn leading to warped views of sex can be solved with a little education.

So you think the boring sex ed classes we're forced to take in high school are going to solve our sexual self-image problems...?


(5) Porn increases STDs

Zmike cites statistics showing porn stars have more STDs than the normal population. There's no proof however that they contracted the STD by shooting porn. Porn stars are generally people who really like sex. They have sex in their free time too. Porn production companies require porn stars to get regular testing, and the bigger companies are at risk of being sued if they allow STDs to spread to their stars. It also hurts their business if their major earners contract an STD and are therefore unable to work. They have an incentive to ensure that STDs are not being transferred on set. And even if porn stars get an STD on set, they know the risks of unprotected sex. It's their bodies and they can risk them however they want.

Zmike also argues that people who watch porn are more likely to try oral sex and anal sex, which he claims are more likely to transfer STDs. But he doesn't offer any evidence of causation. People who are more sexually adventurous are naturally more likely to view porn than people who are not. The causation is likely reversed here. People who are already sexually adventurous watch porn; watching porn doesn't cause women to be more receptive to anal sex. There's no explanation for why that would be the case. Even if it were, the risks of oral and anal sex can be minimized with sex education. This entire contention does not prove that porn is bad; it proves that the lack of sex education about how to minimize STD risk is bad.

I can buy the reverse causation rebuttal here, since zmike didn't put nearly as much effort into showing causal evidence with this argument. I still don't buy that sex ed classes are going to solve anything, though lol; where I went to school, at least, those classes were a joke.


Religion also causes women to be more likely to try anal sex so that their boyfriends don't technically take their virginity. "The poop hole is the loop hole." Is religion bad because it increases anal sex? Something doesn't become inherently bad because it correlates with anal sex.

lol. no.


So yeah, I don't think anything Zmike argued proves that porn is bad. It was a well thought out case, but I just don't think there is a viable argument that pornography is harmful to society.

Why didn't you just accept the debate? XD
ButterCatX
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3/24/2015 9:26:12 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/24/2015 12:26:10 AM, bluesteel wrote:
At 3/23/2015 5:54:22 PM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
At 3/23/2015 4:25:25 PM, ResponsiblyIrresponsible wrote:

Did you read Cuber's debate? He topped both 16k and me in sources in his first round alone.

Lol, no I didn't. I'm actually surprised to hear he did a debate over porn, I'll def check it out!

zmike argued that: (1) porn increases aggression in society, (2) porn harms relationship, (3) porn is habit forming, (4) porn leads to warped views of sex, and (5) porn increases STDs.

(1) Porn increases aggression

zmike cited a ton of studies showing a correlation between porn use and aggression in men. However, the problem is that causation is reversed. Men who engage in sexual violence are very likely to use porn. If a man is extremely sexist or engages in violent behavior towards women, it is very likely that he also uses porn. A lot of men use porn (about 68%). The odds that any given man who is violent *does not* use porn is very low. It's hard to tell a causation story for why the mere viewing of porn causes a man to become more violent. If anything, it reduces the likelihood of rape or sexual violence because men who jack of regularly are sexually sated and feel less desire to take extreme actions in order to get off.

(2) Porn harms relationships

zmike has two types of evidence: (1) divorce attorneys say that porn is one factor in a large percentage of divorces, and (2) between 20-30% of women do not want their partners to look at porn. The problem with the statistic from divorce attorneys is that it doesn't say that porn is the *primary* factor. You can read a lot of divorce cases and you'll rarely see porn being mentioned at all. It's not a major reason people break up. It might be one *aspect* of dissatisfaction in relationships; in particular, in relationships that are already unhappy, the couple is unlikely to be having sex, so the man is more likely to rely more on porn. Increased porn use is a *symptom* of an unhappy relationship, not necessarily a cause. And even if 20% of women don't want their partners to look at porn, that still leaves: (a) 80% of women who are okay with it and realize it's healthy, and (b) all the single men whose only sexual outlet is porn.

(3) Porn is habit forming

Zmike's evidence for this is that porn use releases dopamine. So does sex and eating yummy food. Anything that is pleasurable can be somewhat addictive. Zmike's other evidence is that men who view the same porn videos receive decreasing levels of arousal from the same video over time. This isn't a bad thing; there's no reason people need to watch the same videos over and over again. The same is true for regular movies; it's less fun to watch Miss Congeniality the 2nd time than the 1st time. That's not proof that porn use is addictive. Even if people made a "habit" out of viewing porn, there's no proof that this particular habit is bad. Not all habits are bad. Going to the gym is habit forming. Running is habit forming because endorphins are addictive. But these are good habits. Zmike has to prove it's a bad habit.

(4) Porn leads to warped views of sex

I agree with this. Porn leads men to think that their penises are small because most penises in porn are huge. And porn focuses more on what men like than what women like. That doesn't mean it's bad. Porn is marketed to men, mostly. And what Zmike said is not true of all porn. Amateur porn is just normal couples having sex, and Pornhub and those sites have allowed more people to most amateur porn of themselves, rather than most porn being made by porn-production companies. The problem of porn leading to warped views of sex can be solved with a little education.

(5) Porn increases STDs

Zmike cites statistics showing porn stars have more STDs than the normal population. There's no proof however that they contracted the STD by shooting porn. Porn stars are generally people who really like sex. They have sex in their free time too. Porn production companies require porn stars to get regular testing, and the bigger companies are at risk of being sued if they allow STDs to spread to their stars. It also hurts their business if their major earners contract an STD and are therefore unable to work. They have an incentive to ensure that STDs are not being transferred on set. And even if porn stars get an STD on set, they know the risks of unprotected sex. It's their bodies and they can risk them however they want.

Zmike also argues that people who watch porn are more likely to try oral sex and anal sex, which he claims are more likely to transfer STDs. But he doesn't offer any evidence of causation. People who are more sexually adventurous are naturally more likely to view porn than people who are not. The causation is likely reversed here. People who are already sexually adventurous watch porn; watching porn doesn't cause women to be more receptive to anal sex. There's no explanation for why that would be the case. Even if it were, the risks of oral and anal sex can be minimized with sex education. This entire contention does not prove that porn is bad; it proves that the lack of sex education about how to minimize STD risk is bad.

Religion also causes women to be more likely to try anal sex so that their boyfriends don't technically take their virginity. "The poop hole is the loop hole." Is religion bad because it increases anal sex? Something doesn't become inherently bad because it correlates with anal sex.

So yeah, I don't think anything Zmike argued proves that porn is bad. It was a well thought out case, but I just don't think there is a viable argument that pornography is harmful to society.

That debate was about hardcore pornography not other types of pornography. Just sayin.
I bet fanfics are already being posted on random blogs about us.-Vaarka

Butters preformed his duty to the town and died with honor, he helped us kill scum, so we know have to go and make sure his death wasn't in vain and win this game for him.-lannan13

All hail the great and mighty Butters, who died for our inactive cause.-Vaarka

fuckith offith, lol.-Ore(talking to me)

And guess what happened to FT? He got raped to death.-Xlav

You are so obviously town I love you man.-VOT
bluesteel
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3/24/2015 10:22:02 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/24/2015 8:58:33 AM, WillYouMarryMe wrote:
At 3/24/2015 12:26:10 AM, bluesteel wrote:
At 3/23/2015 5:54:22 PM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
At 3/23/2015 4:25:25 PM, ResponsiblyIrresponsible wrote:

Did you read Cuber's debate? He topped both 16k and me in sources in his first round alone.

Lol, no I didn't. I'm actually surprised to hear he did a debate over porn, I'll def check it out!

zmike argued that: (1) porn increases aggression in society, (2) porn harms relationship, (3) porn is habit forming, (4) porn leads to warped views of sex, and (5) porn increases STDs.

(1) Porn increases aggression

zmike cited a ton of studies showing a correlation between porn use and aggression in men. However, the problem is that causation is reversed. Men who engage in sexual violence are very likely to use porn. If a man is extremely sexist or engages in violent behavior towards women, it is very likely that he also uses porn. A lot of men use porn (about 68%). The odds that any given man who is violent *does not* use porn is very low. It's hard to tell a causation story for why the mere viewing of porn causes a man to become more violent. If anything, it reduces the likelihood of rape or sexual violence because men who jack of regularly are sexually sated and feel less desire to take extreme actions in order to get off.

I don't think you're giving enough credit to zmike here. Literally half the debate was over whether or not it was a case of faulty causation; by the end of the debate, I think he had included sufficient causal evidence to conclude that the pornography played a significant role in increasing sexual aggression.

I'll refute his causal evidence if you summarize it here. It was easy finding his main contentions, but I'm not all that interested in reading the whole debate at the moment.


(4) Porn leads to warped views of sex

I agree with this. Porn leads men to think that their penises are small because most penises in porn are huge. And porn focuses more on what men like than what women like. That doesn't mean it's bad. Porn is marketed to men, mostly. And what Zmike said is not true of all porn. Amateur porn is just normal couples having sex, and Pornhub and those sites have allowed more people to most amateur porn of themselves, rather than most porn being made by porn-production companies. The problem of porn leading to warped views of sex can be solved with a little education.

So you think the boring sex ed classes we're forced to take in high school are going to solve our sexual self-image problems...?

I never said that the education I was talking about was a high school sex ed class. My sex ed class in high school was useless. I was told misinformation that HIV is so small it can slip through the gaps in the latex molecules in condoms (misinformation created by the Catholic Church).

The education I mean is that if men think their penises are small, they can research average size and realize that the penises in porn are far larger than average. They can read about ways to please a woman (e.g. that very few women get off from intercourse). And maybe some day we'll actually teach some of this stuff in schools.



(5) Porn increases STDs

Zmike cites statistics showing porn stars have more STDs than the normal population. There's no proof however that they contracted the STD by shooting porn. Porn stars are generally people who really like sex. They have sex in their free time too. Porn production companies require porn stars to get regular testing, and the bigger companies are at risk of being sued if they allow STDs to spread to their stars. It also hurts their business if their major earners contract an STD and are therefore unable to work. They have an incentive to ensure that STDs are not being transferred on set. And even if porn stars get an STD on set, they know the risks of unprotected sex. It's their bodies and they can risk them however they want.

Zmike also argues that people who watch porn are more likely to try oral sex and anal sex, which he claims are more likely to transfer STDs. But he doesn't offer any evidence of causation. People who are more sexually adventurous are naturally more likely to view porn than people who are not. The causation is likely reversed here. People who are already sexually adventurous watch porn; watching porn doesn't cause women to be more receptive to anal sex. There's no explanation for why that would be the case. Even if it were, the risks of oral and anal sex can be minimized with sex education. This entire contention does not prove that porn is bad; it proves that the lack of sex education about how to minimize STD risk is bad.

I can buy the reverse causation rebuttal here, since zmike didn't put nearly as much effort into showing causal evidence with this argument. I still don't buy that sex ed classes are going to solve anything, though lol; where I went to school, at least, those classes were a joke.

There's other forms of sex education. Public service announcements for example. Drunk driving was curtailed through a concerted PSA campaign, in addition to it being taught in schools. Reductions in smoking are also due to PSAs. Also, you're just invoking is-ought fallacy. The fact that sex ed in schools is currently a joke is a serious problem, which also contributes to high rates of teenage pregnancy. The fact that one facet of our society is broken doesn't mean banning porn is the solution. It means we should fix sex ed classes.



Religion also causes women to be more likely to try anal sex so that their boyfriends don't technically take their virginity. "The poop hole is the loop hole." Is religion bad because it increases anal sex? Something doesn't become inherently bad because it correlates with anal sex.

lol. no.


So yeah, I don't think anything Zmike argued proves that porn is bad. It was a well thought out case, but I just don't think there is a viable argument that pornography is harmful to society.

Why didn't you just accept the debate? XD

I didn't see it in the challenge period. I'm also not accepting debates unless I instigate and get to choose the judges. If anyone is curious why, PM me. I'm happy to tell you which high ELO judges I want to exclude, but I won't call them out right now in the forums.
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)
bluesteel
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3/24/2015 10:26:11 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/24/2015 9:26:12 AM, ButterCatX wrote:

That debate was about hardcore pornography not other types of pornography. Just sayin.

Which isn't relevant to anything I've said. If anything, that undercuts Zmike's case. Why doesn't softcore porn promote misogynistic views of women and cause men to see them only as sex objects, as Zmike argues in contention 1. Why doesn't non-penetrative S&M porn contribute *more* to violence than hardcore porn? Why is Zmike not concerned about it? Zmike argues that some porn is violent -- e.g. rape fantasy porn. But that's only a subset of hardcore porn. That only justifies a law like in the UK, that bans certain types of porn that show "violent acts."

The fact that Zmike is only arguing about hardcore porn also non-uniques some of his arguments. The argument that porn harms relationships is non-unique if Zmike wouldn't advocate banning softcore porn -- only hardcore porn. Limiting the topic to hardcore porn harms Zmike's case; it doesn't affect my rebuttals.
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)
WillYouMarryMe
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3/24/2015 11:54:33 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/24/2015 10:22:02 AM, bluesteel wrote:
At 3/24/2015 8:58:33 AM, WillYouMarryMe wrote:
At 3/24/2015 12:26:10 AM, bluesteel wrote:
At 3/23/2015 5:54:22 PM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
At 3/23/2015 4:25:25 PM, ResponsiblyIrresponsible wrote:

Did you read Cuber's debate? He topped both 16k and me in sources in his first round alone.

Lol, no I didn't. I'm actually surprised to hear he did a debate over porn, I'll def check it out!

zmike argued that: (1) porn increases aggression in society, (2) porn harms relationship, (3) porn is habit forming, (4) porn leads to warped views of sex, and (5) porn increases STDs.

(1) Porn increases aggression

zmike cited a ton of studies showing a correlation between porn use and aggression in men. However, the problem is that causation is reversed. Men who engage in sexual violence are very likely to use porn. If a man is extremely sexist or engages in violent behavior towards women, it is very likely that he also uses porn. A lot of men use porn (about 68%). The odds that any given man who is violent *does not* use porn is very low. It's hard to tell a causation story for why the mere viewing of porn causes a man to become more violent. If anything, it reduces the likelihood of rape or sexual violence because men who jack of regularly are sexually sated and feel less desire to take extreme actions in order to get off.

I don't think you're giving enough credit to zmike here. Literally half the debate was over whether or not it was a case of faulty causation; by the end of the debate, I think he had included sufficient causal evidence to conclude that the pornography played a significant role in increasing sexual aggression.

I'll refute his causal evidence if you summarize it here. It was easy finding his main contentions, but I'm not all that interested in reading the whole debate at the moment.

it was like 40 different studies... can't summarize that XD



(4) Porn leads to warped views of sex

I agree with this. Porn leads men to think that their penises are small because most penises in porn are huge. And porn focuses more on what men like than what women like. That doesn't mean it's bad. Porn is marketed to men, mostly. And what Zmike said is not true of all porn. Amateur porn is just normal couples having sex, and Pornhub and those sites have allowed more people to most amateur porn of themselves, rather than most porn being made by porn-production companies. The problem of porn leading to warped views of sex can be solved with a little education.

So you think the boring sex ed classes we're forced to take in high school are going to solve our sexual self-image problems...?

I never said that the education I was talking about was a high school sex ed class. My sex ed class in high school was useless. I was told misinformation that HIV is so small it can slip through the gaps in the latex molecules in condoms (misinformation created by the Catholic Church).

The education I mean is that if men think their penises are small, they can research average size and realize that the penises in porn are far larger than average. They can read about ways to please a woman (e.g. that very few women get off from intercourse). And maybe some day we'll actually teach some of this stuff in schools.



(5) Porn increases STDs

Zmike cites statistics showing porn stars have more STDs than the normal population. There's no proof however that they contracted the STD by shooting porn. Porn stars are generally people who really like sex. They have sex in their free time too. Porn production companies require porn stars to get regular testing, and the bigger companies are at risk of being sued if they allow STDs to spread to their stars. It also hurts their business if their major earners contract an STD and are therefore unable to work. They have an incentive to ensure that STDs are not being transferred on set. And even if porn stars get an STD on set, they know the risks of unprotected sex. It's their bodies and they can risk them however they want.

Zmike also argues that people who watch porn are more likely to try oral sex and anal sex, which he claims are more likely to transfer STDs. But he doesn't offer any evidence of causation. People who are more sexually adventurous are naturally more likely to view porn than people who are not. The causation is likely reversed here. People who are already sexually adventurous watch porn; watching porn doesn't cause women to be more receptive to anal sex. There's no explanation for why that would be the case. Even if it were, the risks of oral and anal sex can be minimized with sex education. This entire contention does not prove that porn is bad; it proves that the lack of sex education about how to minimize STD risk is bad.

I can buy the reverse causation rebuttal here, since zmike didn't put nearly as much effort into showing causal evidence with this argument. I still don't buy that sex ed classes are going to solve anything, though lol; where I went to school, at least, those classes were a joke.

There's other forms of sex education. Public service announcements for example. Drunk driving was curtailed through a concerted PSA campaign, in addition to it being taught in schools. Reductions in smoking are also due to PSAs. Also, you're just invoking is-ought fallacy. The fact that sex ed in schools is currently a joke is a serious problem, which also contributes to high rates of teenage pregnancy. The fact that one facet of our society is broken doesn't mean banning porn is the solution. It means we should fix sex ed classes.

ah okay. I just assumed you were talking about sex ed classes.
and I don't think anyone said that banning porn is a good idea-- the point was just that in the status quo, porn is detrimental to society.




Religion also causes women to be more likely to try anal sex so that their boyfriends don't technically take their virginity. "The poop hole is the loop hole." Is religion bad because it increases anal sex? Something doesn't become inherently bad because it correlates with anal sex.

lol. no.


So yeah, I don't think anything Zmike argued proves that porn is bad. It was a well thought out case, but I just don't think there is a viable argument that pornography is harmful to society.

Why didn't you just accept the debate? XD

I didn't see it in the challenge period. I'm also not accepting debates unless I instigate and get to choose the judges. If anyone is curious why, PM me. I'm happy to tell you which high ELO judges I want to exclude, but I won't call them out right now in the forums.

haha it's not that hard to guess who you're talking about.
bluesteel
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3/24/2015 11:59:34 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/24/2015 11:54:33 AM, WillYouMarryMe wrote:
At 3/24/2015 10:22:02 AM, bluesteel wrote:
At 3/24/2015 8:58:33 AM, WillYouMarryMe wrote:
At 3/24/2015 12:26:10 AM, bluesteel wrote:
At 3/23/2015 5:54:22 PM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
At 3/23/2015 4:25:25 PM, ResponsiblyIrresponsible wrote:

Did you read Cuber's debate? He topped both 16k and me in sources in his first round alone.

Lol, no I didn't. I'm actually surprised to hear he did a debate over porn, I'll def check it out!

zmike argued that: (1) porn increases aggression in society, (2) porn harms relationship, (3) porn is habit forming, (4) porn leads to warped views of sex, and (5) porn increases STDs.

(1) Porn increases aggression

zmike cited a ton of studies showing a correlation between porn use and aggression in men. However, the problem is that causation is reversed. Men who engage in sexual violence are very likely to use porn. If a man is extremely sexist or engages in violent behavior towards women, it is very likely that he also uses porn. A lot of men use porn (about 68%). The odds that any given man who is violent *does not* use porn is very low. It's hard to tell a causation story for why the mere viewing of porn causes a man to become more violent. If anything, it reduces the likelihood of rape or sexual violence because men who jack of regularly are sexually sated and feel less desire to take extreme actions in order to get off.

I don't think you're giving enough credit to zmike here. Literally half the debate was over whether or not it was a case of faulty causation; by the end of the debate, I think he had included sufficient causal evidence to conclude that the pornography played a significant role in increasing sexual aggression.

I'll refute his causal evidence if you summarize it here. It was easy finding his main contentions, but I'm not all that interested in reading the whole debate at the moment.

it was like 40 different studies... can't summarize that XD

Studies only show a correlation. Causation requires a coherent explanation for why one causes the other. If he just cited studies, he never overcame the problem that causation could work in reverse. If he offered a coherent causative explanation, you could summarize it here.
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)
WillYouMarryMe
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3/24/2015 3:40:19 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/24/2015 11:59:34 AM, bluesteel wrote:
At 3/24/2015 11:54:33 AM, WillYouMarryMe wrote:
At 3/24/2015 10:22:02 AM, bluesteel wrote:
At 3/24/2015 8:58:33 AM, WillYouMarryMe wrote:
At 3/24/2015 12:26:10 AM, bluesteel wrote:
At 3/23/2015 5:54:22 PM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
At 3/23/2015 4:25:25 PM, ResponsiblyIrresponsible wrote:

Did you read Cuber's debate? He topped both 16k and me in sources in his first round alone.

Lol, no I didn't. I'm actually surprised to hear he did a debate over porn, I'll def check it out!

zmike argued that: (1) porn increases aggression in society, (2) porn harms relationship, (3) porn is habit forming, (4) porn leads to warped views of sex, and (5) porn increases STDs.

(1) Porn increases aggression

zmike cited a ton of studies showing a correlation between porn use and aggression in men. However, the problem is that causation is reversed. Men who engage in sexual violence are very likely to use porn. If a man is extremely sexist or engages in violent behavior towards women, it is very likely that he also uses porn. A lot of men use porn (about 68%). The odds that any given man who is violent *does not* use porn is very low. It's hard to tell a causation story for why the mere viewing of porn causes a man to become more violent. If anything, it reduces the likelihood of rape or sexual violence because men who jack of regularly are sexually sated and feel less desire to take extreme actions in order to get off.

I don't think you're giving enough credit to zmike here. Literally half the debate was over whether or not it was a case of faulty causation; by the end of the debate, I think he had included sufficient causal evidence to conclude that the pornography played a significant role in increasing sexual aggression.

I'll refute his causal evidence if you summarize it here. It was easy finding his main contentions, but I'm not all that interested in reading the whole debate at the moment.

it was like 40 different studies... can't summarize that XD

Studies only show a correlation. Causation requires a coherent explanation for why one causes the other. If he just cited studies, he never overcame the problem that causation could work in reverse. If he offered a coherent causative explanation, you could summarize it here.

What's the difference between an "experimental study" and a "non-experimental study"?
bluesteel
Posts: 12,301
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3/24/2015 4:31:54 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/24/2015 3:40:19 PM, WillYouMarryMe wrote:
At 3/24/2015 11:59:34 AM, bluesteel wrote:
At 3/24/2015 11:54:33 AM, WillYouMarryMe wrote:
At 3/24/2015 10:22:02 AM, bluesteel wrote:
At 3/24/2015 8:58:33 AM, WillYouMarryMe wrote:
At 3/24/2015 12:26:10 AM, bluesteel wrote:
At 3/23/2015 5:54:22 PM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
At 3/23/2015 4:25:25 PM, ResponsiblyIrresponsible wrote:

Did you read Cuber's debate? He topped both 16k and me in sources in his first round alone.

Lol, no I didn't. I'm actually surprised to hear he did a debate over porn, I'll def check it out!

zmike argued that: (1) porn increases aggression in society, (2) porn harms relationship, (3) porn is habit forming, (4) porn leads to warped views of sex, and (5) porn increases STDs.

(1) Porn increases aggression

zmike cited a ton of studies showing a correlation between porn use and aggression in men. However, the problem is that causation is reversed. Men who engage in sexual violence are very likely to use porn. If a man is extremely sexist or engages in violent behavior towards women, it is very likely that he also uses porn. A lot of men use porn (about 68%). The odds that any given man who is violent *does not* use porn is very low. It's hard to tell a causation story for why the mere viewing of porn causes a man to become more violent. If anything, it reduces the likelihood of rape or sexual violence because men who jack of regularly are sexually sated and feel less desire to take extreme actions in order to get off.

I don't think you're giving enough credit to zmike here. Literally half the debate was over whether or not it was a case of faulty causation; by the end of the debate, I think he had included sufficient causal evidence to conclude that the pornography played a significant role in increasing sexual aggression.

I'll refute his causal evidence if you summarize it here. It was easy finding his main contentions, but I'm not all that interested in reading the whole debate at the moment.

it was like 40 different studies... can't summarize that XD

Studies only show a correlation. Causation requires a coherent explanation for why one causes the other. If he just cited studies, he never overcame the problem that causation could work in reverse. If he offered a coherent causative explanation, you could summarize it here.

What's the difference between an "experimental study" and a "non-experimental study"?

The presence or absence of a control group.
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)
WillYouMarryMe
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3/24/2015 4:49:13 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/24/2015 4:31:54 PM, bluesteel wrote:
At 3/24/2015 3:40:19 PM, WillYouMarryMe wrote:
At 3/24/2015 11:59:34 AM, bluesteel wrote:
At 3/24/2015 11:54:33 AM, WillYouMarryMe wrote:
At 3/24/2015 10:22:02 AM, bluesteel wrote:
At 3/24/2015 8:58:33 AM, WillYouMarryMe wrote:
At 3/24/2015 12:26:10 AM, bluesteel wrote:
At 3/23/2015 5:54:22 PM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
At 3/23/2015 4:25:25 PM, ResponsiblyIrresponsible wrote:

Did you read Cuber's debate? He topped both 16k and me in sources in his first round alone.

Lol, no I didn't. I'm actually surprised to hear he did a debate over porn, I'll def check it out!

zmike argued that: (1) porn increases aggression in society, (2) porn harms relationship, (3) porn is habit forming, (4) porn leads to warped views of sex, and (5) porn increases STDs.

(1) Porn increases aggression

zmike cited a ton of studies showing a correlation between porn use and aggression in men. However, the problem is that causation is reversed. Men who engage in sexual violence are very likely to use porn. If a man is extremely sexist or engages in violent behavior towards women, it is very likely that he also uses porn. A lot of men use porn (about 68%). The odds that any given man who is violent *does not* use porn is very low. It's hard to tell a causation story for why the mere viewing of porn causes a man to become more violent. If anything, it reduces the likelihood of rape or sexual violence because men who jack of regularly are sexually sated and feel less desire to take extreme actions in order to get off.

I don't think you're giving enough credit to zmike here. Literally half the debate was over whether or not it was a case of faulty causation; by the end of the debate, I think he had included sufficient causal evidence to conclude that the pornography played a significant role in increasing sexual aggression.

I'll refute his causal evidence if you summarize it here. It was easy finding his main contentions, but I'm not all that interested in reading the whole debate at the moment.

it was like 40 different studies... can't summarize that XD

Studies only show a correlation. Causation requires a coherent explanation for why one causes the other. If he just cited studies, he never overcame the problem that causation could work in reverse. If he offered a coherent causative explanation, you could summarize it here.

What's the difference between an "experimental study" and a "non-experimental study"?

The presence or absence of a control group.

does having a control group have any bearing on the likelihood of the correlation being a result of reverse causation?
bluesteel
Posts: 12,301
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3/24/2015 4:53:10 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/24/2015 4:49:13 PM, WillYouMarryMe wrote:
At 3/24/2015 4:31:54 PM, bluesteel wrote:
At 3/24/2015 3:40:19 PM, WillYouMarryMe wrote:
At 3/24/2015 11:59:34 AM, bluesteel wrote:
At 3/24/2015 11:54:33 AM, WillYouMarryMe wrote:
At 3/24/2015 10:22:02 AM, bluesteel wrote:
At 3/24/2015 8:58:33 AM, WillYouMarryMe wrote:
At 3/24/2015 12:26:10 AM, bluesteel wrote:
At 3/23/2015 5:54:22 PM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
At 3/23/2015 4:25:25 PM, ResponsiblyIrresponsible wrote:

Did you read Cuber's debate? He topped both 16k and me in sources in his first round alone.

Lol, no I didn't. I'm actually surprised to hear he did a debate over porn, I'll def check it out!

zmike argued that: (1) porn increases aggression in society, (2) porn harms relationship, (3) porn is habit forming, (4) porn leads to warped views of sex, and (5) porn increases STDs.

(1) Porn increases aggression

zmike cited a ton of studies showing a correlation between porn use and aggression in men. However, the problem is that causation is reversed. Men who engage in sexual violence are very likely to use porn. If a man is extremely sexist or engages in violent behavior towards women, it is very likely that he also uses porn. A lot of men use porn (about 68%). The odds that any given man who is violent *does not* use porn is very low. It's hard to tell a causation story for why the mere viewing of porn causes a man to become more violent. If anything, it reduces the likelihood of rape or sexual violence because men who jack of regularly are sexually sated and feel less desire to take extreme actions in order to get off.

I don't think you're giving enough credit to zmike here. Literally half the debate was over whether or not it was a case of faulty causation; by the end of the debate, I think he had included sufficient causal evidence to conclude that the pornography played a significant role in increasing sexual aggression.

I'll refute his causal evidence if you summarize it here. It was easy finding his main contentions, but I'm not all that interested in reading the whole debate at the moment.

it was like 40 different studies... can't summarize that XD

Studies only show a correlation. Causation requires a coherent explanation for why one causes the other. If he just cited studies, he never overcame the problem that causation could work in reverse. If he offered a coherent causative explanation, you could summarize it here.

What's the difference between an "experimental study" and a "non-experimental study"?

The presence or absence of a control group.

does having a control group have any bearing on the likelihood of the correlation being a result of reverse causation?

Perhaps. Depending on the control group and whether it is random sampling.
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)
WillYouMarryMe
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3/24/2015 4:57:58 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/24/2015 4:53:10 PM, bluesteel wrote:
At 3/24/2015 4:49:13 PM, WillYouMarryMe wrote:
At 3/24/2015 4:31:54 PM, bluesteel wrote:
At 3/24/2015 3:40:19 PM, WillYouMarryMe wrote:
At 3/24/2015 11:59:34 AM, bluesteel wrote:
At 3/24/2015 11:54:33 AM, WillYouMarryMe wrote:
At 3/24/2015 10:22:02 AM, bluesteel wrote:
At 3/24/2015 8:58:33 AM, WillYouMarryMe wrote:
At 3/24/2015 12:26:10 AM, bluesteel wrote:
At 3/23/2015 5:54:22 PM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
At 3/23/2015 4:25:25 PM, ResponsiblyIrresponsible wrote:

Did you read Cuber's debate? He topped both 16k and me in sources in his first round alone.

Lol, no I didn't. I'm actually surprised to hear he did a debate over porn, I'll def check it out!

zmike argued that: (1) porn increases aggression in society, (2) porn harms relationship, (3) porn is habit forming, (4) porn leads to warped views of sex, and (5) porn increases STDs.

(1) Porn increases aggression

zmike cited a ton of studies showing a correlation between porn use and aggression in men. However, the problem is that causation is reversed. Men who engage in sexual violence are very likely to use porn. If a man is extremely sexist or engages in violent behavior towards women, it is very likely that he also uses porn. A lot of men use porn (about 68%). The odds that any given man who is violent *does not* use porn is very low. It's hard to tell a causation story for why the mere viewing of porn causes a man to become more violent. If anything, it reduces the likelihood of rape or sexual violence because men who jack of regularly are sexually sated and feel less desire to take extreme actions in order to get off.

I don't think you're giving enough credit to zmike here. Literally half the debate was over whether or not it was a case of faulty causation; by the end of the debate, I think he had included sufficient causal evidence to conclude that the pornography played a significant role in increasing sexual aggression.

I'll refute his causal evidence if you summarize it here. It was easy finding his main contentions, but I'm not all that interested in reading the whole debate at the moment.

it was like 40 different studies... can't summarize that XD

Studies only show a correlation. Causation requires a coherent explanation for why one causes the other. If he just cited studies, he never overcame the problem that causation could work in reverse. If he offered a coherent causative explanation, you could summarize it here.

What's the difference between an "experimental study" and a "non-experimental study"?

The presence or absence of a control group.

does having a control group have any bearing on the likelihood of the correlation being a result of reverse causation?

Perhaps. Depending on the control group and whether it is random sampling.

Well, most of zmike's attempts at demonstrating causality came from citing a bunch of experimental studies... the only other attempts were some psychological theory stuff and isolated anecdotal evidence.
zmikecuber
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3/24/2015 5:02:08 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Did you read Cuber's debate? He topped both 16k and me in sources in his first round alone.

Lol, no I didn't. I'm actually surprised to hear he did a debate over porn, I'll def check it out!

zmike argued that: (1) porn increases aggression in society, (2) porn harms relationship, (3) porn is habit forming, (4) porn leads to warped views of sex, and (5) porn increases STDs.

(1) Porn increases aggression

zmike cited a ton of studies showing a correlation between porn use and aggression in men. However, the problem is that causation is reversed.

Says who?

Men who engage in sexual violence are very likely to use porn. If a man is extremely sexist or engages in violent behavior towards women, it is very likely that he also uses porn.

This may be true, but it needs justification. Furthermore, even if this is the case, it doesn't mean it's mutually exclusive. Can't someone watch porn because they're aggressive and then be influenced by the porn to become more aggressive?

A lot of men use porn (about 68%). The odds that any given man who is violent *does not* use porn is very low. It's hard to tell a causation story for why the mere viewing of porn causes a man to become more violent. If anything, it reduces the likelihood of rape or sexual violence because men who jack of regularly are sexually sated and feel less desire to take extreme actions in order to get off.


You're ignoring the studies regarding control group vs. exposure to porn group. Nearly every experimental study shows that increased exposure to porn causes increased misogynistic attitudes towards women and acceptance of the rape myth, as well as decreased recommended punishments for rape. The effects for those who are highly psychotic are even more drastic.

(2) Porn harms relationships

zmike has two types of evidence: (1) divorce attorneys say that porn is one factor in a large percentage of divorces, and (2) between 20-30% of women do not want their partners to look at porn. The problem with the statistic from divorce attorneys is that it doesn't say that porn is the *primary* factor. You can read a lot of divorce cases and you'll rarely see porn being mentioned at all. It's not a major reason people break up. It might be one *aspect* of dissatisfaction in relationships; in particular, in relationships that are already unhappy, the couple is unlikely to be having sex, so the man is more likely to rely more on porn. Increased porn use is a *symptom* of an unhappy relationship, not necessarily a cause. And even if 20% of women don't want their partners to look at porn, that still leaves: (a) 80% of women who are okay with it and realize it's healthy, and (b) all the single men whose only sexual outlet is porn.


This is a decent rebuttal. However, I don't see why merely because porn isn't a main cause for divorce, it can't be a contributing factor. Also, can't something be both a symptom and a cause of a bad relationship? Such as infidelity... it can show that something is wrong with the relationship in the first place, and it can also make the relationship even worse.

(3) Porn is habit forming

Zmike's evidence for this is that porn use releases dopamine. So does sex and eating yummy food. Anything that is pleasurable can be somewhat addictive. Zmike's other evidence is that men who view the same porn videos receive decreasing levels of arousal from the same video over time. This isn't a bad thing; there's no reason people need to watch the same videos over and over again. The same is true for regular movies; it's less fun to watch Miss Congeniality the 2nd time than the 1st time. That's not proof that porn use is addictive. Even if people made a "habit" out of viewing porn, there's no proof that this particular habit is bad. Not all habits are bad. Going to the gym is habit forming. Running is habit forming because endorphins are addictive. But these are good habits. Zmike has to prove it's a bad habit.


Well it causes decreased receptivity of the reward system in the brain. There are also new studies regarding porn induced erectile dysfunction, where the guy can't get a boner off his gf/wife but can get hard on porn, because the brain has re-wired itself.

(4) Porn leads to warped views of sex

I agree with this. Porn leads men to think that their penises are small because most penises in porn are huge. And porn focuses more on what men like than what women like. That doesn't mean it's bad. Porn is marketed to men, mostly. And what Zmike said is not true of all porn. Amateur porn is just normal couples having sex, and Pornhub and those sites have allowed more people to most amateur porn of themselves, rather than most porn being made by porn-production companies. The problem of porn leading to warped views of sex can be solved with a little education.


If it needs to be remedied, then that means it's harmful in the first place.

(5) Porn increases STDs

Zmike cites statistics showing porn stars have more STDs than the normal population. There's no proof however that they contracted the STD by shooting porn. Porn stars are generally people who really like sex. They have sex in their free time too. Porn production companies require porn stars to get regular testing, and the bigger companies are at risk of being sued if they allow STDs to spread to their stars. It also hurts their business if their major earners contract an STD and are therefore unable to work. They have an incentive to ensure that STDs are not being transferred on set. And even if porn stars get an STD on set, they know the risks of unprotected sex. It's their bodies and they can risk them however they want.

Zmike also argues that people who watch porn are more likely to try oral sex and anal sex, which he claims are more likely to transfer STDs. But he doesn't offer any evidence of causation. People who are more sexually adventurous are naturally more likely to view porn than people who are not. The causation is likely reversed here. People who are already sexually adventurous watch porn; watching porn doesn't cause women to be more receptive to anal sex. There's no explanation for why that would be the case. Even if it were, the risks of oral and anal sex can be minimized with sex education. This entire contention does not prove that porn is bad; it proves that the lack of sex education about how to minimize STD risk is bad.

Religion also causes women to be more likely to try anal sex so that their boyfriends don't technically take their virginity. "The poop hole is the loop hole." Is religion bad because it increases anal sex? Something doesn't become inherently bad because it correlates with anal sex.


That's ridiculous. Religions which forbid premarital sex would include anal sex in there lol.

So yeah, I don't think anything Zmike argued proves that porn is bad. It was a well thought out case, but I just don't think there is a viable argument that pornography is harmful to society.

I'll admit that the person's psychological predispositions will have a huge role. The studies also point this out. There are various causes to sexually aggressive beliefs, promiscuity, etc.. However, this doesn't mean that porn doesn't affect the person negatively, and it doesn't mean that it doesn't play *any* role. And, as I've shown, these studies seem to support the idea that porn does contribute to the things I outlined, even if it's not the *main* contributor. I mean... some people are born idiots. But there can be things that they're drawn to that make them even stupider.
"Delete your fvcking sig" -1hard

"primal man had the habit, when he came into contact with fire, of satisfying the infantile desire connected with it, by putting it out with a stream of his urine... Putting out the fire by micturating was therefore a kind of sexual act with a male, an enjoyment of sexual potency in a homosexual competition."
Bennett91
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3/24/2015 5:13:16 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/23/2015 4:15:32 PM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
I was inspired...

http://www.debate.org...

Please feel free to share your thoughts or opinions on the matter in the respective thread.

What do you think about this recent debate? http://www.debate.org...
zmikecuber
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3/24/2015 5:15:36 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/24/2015 12:26:10 AM, bluesteel wrote:
At 3/23/2015 5:54:22 PM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
At 3/23/2015 4:25:25 PM, ResponsiblyIrresponsible wrote:

Did you read Cuber's debate? He topped both 16k and me in sources in his first round alone.

Lol, no I didn't. I'm actually surprised to hear he did a debate over porn, I'll def check it out!

zmike argued that: (1) porn increases aggression in society, (2) porn harms relationship, (3) porn is habit forming, (4) porn leads to warped views of sex, and (5) porn increases STDs.

(1) Porn increases aggression

zmike cited a ton of studies showing a correlation between porn use and aggression in men. However, the problem is that causation is reversed. Men who engage in sexual violence are very likely to use porn. If a man is extremely sexist or engages in violent behavior towards women, it is very likely that he also uses porn. A lot of men use porn (about 68%). The odds that any given man who is violent *does not* use porn is very low. It's hard to tell a causation story for why the mere viewing of porn causes a man to become more violent. If anything, it reduces the likelihood of rape or sexual violence because men who jack of regularly are sexually sated and feel less desire to take extreme actions in order to get off.

(2) Porn harms relationships

zmike has two types of evidence: (1) divorce attorneys say that porn is one factor in a large percentage of divorces, and (2) between 20-30% of women do not want their partners to look at porn. The problem with the statistic from divorce attorneys is that it doesn't say that porn is the *primary* factor. You can read a lot of divorce cases and you'll rarely see porn being mentioned at all. It's not a major reason people break up. It might be one *aspect* of dissatisfaction in relationships; in particular, in relationships that are already unhappy, the couple is unlikely to be having sex, so the man is more likely to rely more on porn. Increased porn use is a *symptom* of an unhappy relationship, not necessarily a cause. And even if 20% of women don't want their partners to look at porn, that still leaves: (a) 80% of women who are okay with it and realize it's healthy, and (b) all the single men whose only sexual outlet is porn.


I also want to point out that even if porn isn't the main cause of these divorces, it doesn't mean it doesn' tharm the relationship.

I mean... from everything i know about women, if they really don't want you to do something, and you go and do it, that's not good for your relationship with them... especially when they feel you're cheating on them.

So, let's examine the relationships where the woman feels that if her special other watches porn, he is cheating on her...

It's either

I. Harmful to the relationship
II. Neutral to the relationship
III. Beneficial to the relationship

How can this be anything other than I.? I mean... if my gf thinks that me watching porn = infidelity, and I go and watch porn, in her mind, haven't I cheated on her? And doesn't cheating on your spouse if they don't want you to generally harm your relationship, rather than help it or not affect it at all?

Also, 30% of the women said that since they found out their partner used porn, they felt a *loss of intimacy*. That seems to be harmful, not beneficial or neutral, don't you think? Also, about the same amount said that they felt less like a person around their partner, and more like a sexual object. 40% said their self esteem was negatively effected. 39% said that their partner's pornography use had a negative impact upon their relationship. 41% feel less attractive and desirable.

(3) Porn is habit forming

Zmike's evidence for this is that porn use releases dopamine. So does sex and eating yummy food. Anything that is pleasurable can be somewhat addictive. Zmike's other evidence is that men who view the same porn videos receive decreasing levels of arousal from the same video over time. This isn't a bad thing; there's no reason people need to watch the same videos over and over again. The same is true for regular movies; it's less fun to watch Miss Congeniality the 2nd time than the 1st time. That's not proof that porn use is addictive. Even if people made a "habit" out of viewing porn, there's no proof that this particular habit is bad. Not all habits are bad. Going to the gym is habit forming. Running is habit forming because endorphins are addictive. But these are good habits. Zmike has to prove it's a bad habit.

(4) Porn leads to warped views of sex

I agree with this. Porn leads men to think that their penises are small because most penises in porn are huge. And porn focuses more on what men like than what women like. That doesn't mean it's bad. Porn is marketed to men, mostly. And what Zmike said is not true of all porn. Amateur porn is just normal couples having sex, and Pornhub and those sites have allowed more people to most amateur porn of themselves, rather than most porn being made by porn-production companies. The problem of porn leading to warped views of sex can be solved with a little education.

(5) Porn increases STDs

Zmike cites statistics showing porn stars have more STDs than the normal population. There's no proof however that they contracted the STD by shooting porn. Porn stars are generally people who really like sex. They have sex in their free time too. Porn production companies require porn stars to get regular testing, and the bigger companies are at risk of being sued if they allow STDs to spread to their stars. It also hurts their business if their major earners contract an STD and are therefore unable to work. They have an incentive to ensure that STDs are not being transferred on set. And even if porn stars get an STD on set, they know the risks of unprotected sex. It's their bodies and they can risk them however they want.

Zmike also argues that people who watch porn are more likely to try oral sex and anal sex, which he claims are more likely to transfer STDs. But he doesn't offer any evidence of causation. People who are more sexually adventurous are naturally more likely to view porn than people who are not. The causation is likely reversed here. People who are already sexually adventurous watch porn; watching porn doesn't cause women to be more receptive to anal sex. There's no explanation for why that would be the case. Even if it were, the risks of oral and anal sex can be minimized with sex education. This entire contention does not prove that porn is bad; it proves that the lack of sex education about how to minimize STD risk is bad.

Religion also causes women to be more likely to try anal sex so that their boyfriends don't technically take their virginity. "The poop hole is the loop hole." Is religion bad because it increases anal sex? Something doesn't become inherently bad because it correlates with anal sex.

So yeah, I don't think anything Zmike argued proves that porn is bad. It was a well thought out case, but I just don't think there is a viable argument that pornography is harmful to society.
"Delete your fvcking sig" -1hard

"primal man had the habit, when he came into contact with fire, of satisfying the infantile desire connected with it, by putting it out with a stream of his urine... Putting out the fire by micturating was therefore a kind of sexual act with a male, an enjoyment of sexual potency in a homosexual competition."
zmikecuber
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3/24/2015 5:20:05 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/24/2015 12:26:10 AM, bluesteel wrote:
At 3/23/2015 5:54:22 PM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
At 3/23/2015 4:25:25 PM, ResponsiblyIrresponsible wrote:

Did you read Cuber's debate? He topped both 16k and me in sources in his first round alone.

Lol, no I didn't. I'm actually surprised to hear he did a debate over porn, I'll def check it out!

zmike argued that: (1) porn increases aggression in society, (2) porn harms relationship, (3) porn is habit forming, (4) porn leads to warped views of sex, and (5) porn increases STDs.

(1) Porn increases aggression

zmike cited a ton of studies showing a correlation between porn use and aggression in men. However, the problem is that causation is reversed. Men who engage in sexual violence are very likely to use porn. If a man is extremely sexist or engages in violent behavior towards women, it is very likely that he also uses porn. A lot of men use porn (about 68%). The odds that any given man who is violent *does not* use porn is very low. It's hard to tell a causation story for why the mere viewing of porn causes a man to become more violent. If anything, it reduces the likelihood of rape or sexual violence because men who jack of regularly are sexually sated and feel less desire to take extreme actions in order to get off.

(2) Porn harms relationships

zmike has two types of evidence: (1) divorce attorneys say that porn is one factor in a large percentage of divorces, and (2) between 20-30% of women do not want their partners to look at porn. The problem with the statistic from divorce attorneys is that it doesn't say that porn is the *primary* factor. You can read a lot of divorce cases and you'll rarely see porn being mentioned at all. It's not a major reason people break up. It might be one *aspect* of dissatisfaction in relationships; in particular, in relationships that are already unhappy, the couple is unlikely to be having sex, so the man is more likely to rely more on porn. Increased porn use is a *symptom* of an unhappy relationship, not necessarily a cause. And even if 20% of women don't want their partners to look at porn, that still leaves: (a) 80% of women who are okay with it and realize it's healthy, and (b) all the single men whose only sexual outlet is porn.

(3) Porn is habit forming

Zmike's evidence for this is that porn use releases dopamine. So does sex and eating yummy food. Anything that is pleasurable can be somewhat addictive. Zmike's other evidence is that men who view the same porn videos receive decreasing levels of arousal from the same video over time. This isn't a bad thing; there's no reason people need to watch the same videos over and over again. The same is true for regular movies; it's less fun to watch Miss Congeniality the 2nd time than the 1st time. That's not proof that porn use is addictive. Even if people made a "habit" out of viewing porn, there's no proof that this particular habit is bad. Not all habits are bad. Going to the gym is habit forming. Running is habit forming because endorphins are addictive. But these are good habits. Zmike has to prove it's a bad habit.

(4) Porn leads to warped views of sex

I agree with this. Porn leads men to think that their penises are small because most penises in porn are huge. And porn focuses more on what men like than what women like. That doesn't mean it's bad. Porn is marketed to men, mostly. And what Zmike said is not true of all porn. Amateur porn is just normal couples having sex, and Pornhub and those sites have allowed more people to most amateur porn of themselves, rather than most porn being made by porn-production companies. The problem of porn leading to warped views of sex can be solved with a little education.

(5) Porn increases STDs

Zmike cites statistics showing porn stars have more STDs than the normal population. There's no proof however that they contracted the STD by shooting porn. Porn stars are generally people who really like sex. They have sex in their free time too. Porn production companies require porn stars to get regular testing, and the bigger companies are at risk of being sued if they allow STDs to spread to their stars. It also hurts their business if their major earners contract an STD and are therefore unable to work. They have an incentive to ensure that STDs are not being transferred on set. And even if porn stars get an STD on set, they know the risks of unprotected sex. It's their bodies and they can risk them however they want.

Zmike also argues that people who watch porn are more likely to try oral sex and anal sex, which he claims are more likely to transfer STDs. But he doesn't offer any evidence of causation. People who are more sexually adventurous are naturally more likely to view porn than people who are not. The causation is likely reversed here. People who are already sexually adventurous watch porn; watching porn doesn't cause women to be more receptive to anal sex. There's no explanation for why that would be the case. Even if it were, the risks of oral and anal sex can be minimized with sex education. This entire contention does not prove that porn is bad; it proves that the lack of sex education about how to minimize STD risk is bad.

Religion also causes women to be more likely to try anal sex so that their boyfriends don't technically take their virginity. "The poop hole is the loop hole." Is religion bad because it increases anal sex? Something doesn't become inherently bad because it correlates with anal sex.

So yeah, I don't think anything Zmike argued proves that porn is bad. It was a well thought out case, but I just don't think there is a viable argument that pornography is harmful to society.

https://www.youtube.com... ;)
"Delete your fvcking sig" -1hard

"primal man had the habit, when he came into contact with fire, of satisfying the infantile desire connected with it, by putting it out with a stream of his urine... Putting out the fire by micturating was therefore a kind of sexual act with a male, an enjoyment of sexual potency in a homosexual competition."
Bennett91
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3/24/2015 5:27:33 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/24/2015 5:02:08 PM, zmikecuber wrote:
Did you read Cuber's debate? He topped both 16k and me in sources in his first round alone.

Lol, no I didn't. I'm actually surprised to hear he did a debate over porn, I'll def check it out!

zmike argued that: (1) porn increases aggression in society, (2) porn harms relationship, (3) porn is habit forming, (4) porn leads to warped views of sex, and (5) porn increases STDs.

(1) Porn increases aggression

zmike cited a ton of studies showing a correlation between porn use and aggression in men. However, the problem is that causation is reversed.

Says who?

Did you even read my side of the debate?

Men who engage in sexual violence are very likely to use porn. If a man is extremely sexist or engages in violent behavior towards women, it is very likely that he also uses porn.

This may be true, but it needs justification. Furthermore, even if this is the case, it doesn't mean it's mutually exclusive. Can't someone watch porn because they're aggressive and then be influenced by the porn to become more aggressive?

This may be true for a minority of individuals, but it's irrelevant on a societal level and porn can't be shown to cause that aggression which sparks violent acts.

A lot of men use porn (about 68%). The odds that any given man who is violent *does not* use porn is very low. It's hard to tell a causation story for why the mere viewing of porn causes a man to become more violent. If anything, it reduces the likelihood of rape or sexual violence because men who jack of regularly are sexually sated and feel less desire to take extreme actions in order to get off.


You're ignoring the studies regarding control group vs. exposure to porn group. Nearly every experimental study shows that increased exposure to porn causes increased misogynistic attitudes towards women and acceptance of the rape myth, as well as decreased recommended punishments for rape. The effects for those who are highly psychotic are even more drastic.

Just like with your other studies correlation is not causation. You rely on experimental data yet ignore their major flaws.

(2) Porn harms relationships

zmike has two types of evidence: (1) divorce attorneys say that porn is one factor in a large percentage of divorces, and (2) between 20-30% of women do not want their partners to look at porn. The problem with the statistic from divorce attorneys is that it doesn't say that porn is the *primary* factor. You can read a lot of divorce cases and you'll rarely see porn being mentioned at all. It's not a major reason people break up. It might be one *aspect* of dissatisfaction in relationships; in particular, in relationships that are already unhappy, the couple is unlikely to be having sex, so the man is more likely to rely more on porn. Increased porn use is a *symptom* of an unhappy relationship, not necessarily a cause. And even if 20% of women don't want their partners to look at porn, that still leaves: (a) 80% of women who are okay with it and realize it's healthy, and (b) all the single men whose only sexual outlet is porn.


This is a decent rebuttal. However, I don't see why merely because porn isn't a main cause for divorce, it can't be a contributing factor. Also, can't something be both a symptom and a cause of a bad relationship? Such as infidelity... it can show that something is wrong with the relationship in the first place, and it can also make the relationship even worse.

Cheating is a much more egregious act than looking at porn.

(3) Porn is habit forming

Zmike's evidence for this is that porn use releases dopamine. So does sex and eating yummy food. Anything that is pleasurable can be somewhat addictive. Zmike's other evidence is that men who view the same porn videos receive decreasing levels of arousal from the same video over time. This isn't a bad thing; there's no reason people need to watch the same videos over and over again. The same is true for regular movies; it's less fun to watch Miss Congeniality the 2nd time than the 1st time. That's not proof that porn use is addictive. Even if people made a "habit" out of viewing porn, there's no proof that this particular habit is bad. Not all habits are bad. Going to the gym is habit forming. Running is habit forming because endorphins are addictive. But these are good habits. Zmike has to prove it's a bad habit.


Well it causes decreased receptivity of the reward system in the brain. There are also new studies regarding porn induced erectile dysfunction, where the guy can't get a boner off his gf/wife but can get hard on porn, because the brain has re-wired itself.

This is not a societal problem.

(4) Porn leads to warped views of sex

I agree with this. Porn leads men to think that their penises are small because most penises in porn are huge. And porn focuses more on what men like than what women like. That doesn't mean it's bad. Porn is marketed to men, mostly. And what Zmike said is not true of all porn. Amateur porn is just normal couples having sex, and Pornhub and those sites have allowed more people to most amateur porn of themselves, rather than most porn being made by porn-production companies. The problem of porn leading to warped views of sex can be solved with a little education.


If it needs to be remedied, then that means it's harmful in the first place.

Everything needs remedies if taken to the extreme. Does that make everything harmful?
bluesteel
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3/24/2015 5:37:00 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/24/2015 4:57:58 PM, WillYouMarryMe wrote:
At 3/24/2015 4:53:10 PM, bluesteel wrote:
At 3/24/2015 4:49:13 PM, WillYouMarryMe wrote:
At 3/24/2015 4:31:54 PM, bluesteel wrote:
At 3/24/2015 3:40:19 PM, WillYouMarryMe wrote:
At 3/24/2015 11:59:34 AM, bluesteel wrote:
At 3/24/2015 11:54:33 AM, WillYouMarryMe wrote:
At 3/24/2015 10:22:02 AM, bluesteel wrote:
At 3/24/2015 8:58:33 AM, WillYouMarryMe wrote:
At 3/24/2015 12:26:10 AM, bluesteel wrote:
At 3/23/2015 5:54:22 PM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
At 3/23/2015 4:25:25 PM, ResponsiblyIrresponsible wrote:

Did you read Cuber's debate? He topped both 16k and me in sources in his first round alone.

Lol, no I didn't. I'm actually surprised to hear he did a debate over porn, I'll def check it out!

zmike argued that: (1) porn increases aggression in society, (2) porn harms relationship, (3) porn is habit forming, (4) porn leads to warped views of sex, and (5) porn increases STDs.

(1) Porn increases aggression

zmike cited a ton of studies showing a correlation between porn use and aggression in men. However, the problem is that causation is reversed. Men who engage in sexual violence are very likely to use porn. If a man is extremely sexist or engages in violent behavior towards women, it is very likely that he also uses porn. A lot of men use porn (about 68%). The odds that any given man who is violent *does not* use porn is very low. It's hard to tell a causation story for why the mere viewing of porn causes a man to become more violent. If anything, it reduces the likelihood of rape or sexual violence because men who jack of regularly are sexually sated and feel less desire to take extreme actions in order to get off.

I don't think you're giving enough credit to zmike here. Literally half the debate was over whether or not it was a case of faulty causation; by the end of the debate, I think he had included sufficient causal evidence to conclude that the pornography played a significant role in increasing sexual aggression.

I'll refute his causal evidence if you summarize it here. It was easy finding his main contentions, but I'm not all that interested in reading the whole debate at the moment.

it was like 40 different studies... can't summarize that XD

Studies only show a correlation. Causation requires a coherent explanation for why one causes the other. If he just cited studies, he never overcame the problem that causation could work in reverse. If he offered a coherent causative explanation, you could summarize it here.

What's the difference between an "experimental study" and a "non-experimental study"?

The presence or absence of a control group.

does having a control group have any bearing on the likelihood of the correlation being a result of reverse causation?

Perhaps. Depending on the control group and whether it is random sampling.

Well, most of zmike's attempts at demonstrating causality came from citing a bunch of experimental studies... the only other attempts were some psychological theory stuff and isolated anecdotal evidence.

His controlled study was a group of 29 college students. Half, I'm assuming, were assigned to the experimental group. From the abstract, I can't tell how many of those 14-15 students were classified as non-sexually violent at the outside. We could be talking anywhere from 2-12 students who were non-violent at the outside, which seems too small a group to draw conclusions from.
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)