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Bluesteel destroyed by Zaroette

F-16_Fighting_Falcon
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4/1/2015 3:48:36 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
I wanted to figure out how good the debater known as "bluesteel" really is so I've evaluated his latest debate to check up on his debating skills. As it turns out, up-and-coming debater Zaroette utterly destroys him suggesting that DDO has a new best debater. Check it out in my latest RFD:

Debate: (http://www.debate.org...): On balance mafia is a waste of time.

My RFD:

== Opportunity Cost/Infinitely regressive ==

Zaroette starts by pointing out the massive opportunity cost to mafia explaining the various other things that a person could be doing including reading, working out, etc. bluesteel tries to counter with an infinite regress argument which makes sense on the surface but doesn't address the meat of what Zaroette said and is in fact self-contradictory. If bluesteel is suggesting that perfect is the enemy of good, he pretty much concedes Zaro's case that people ought to do something "good" in lieu of playing mafia. So, working out at home is good. It doesn't matter that you can do better things like working out at a gym and bluesteel's perfection argument destroys itself. This is especially strengthened by Zaroette pointing out that most things are *objectively* better than mafia. bluesteel has no answer to this and is completely evades the issue by asking her to "rank" the alternatives. This is totally meaningless. Studying and working are both better than watching TV but are they better than each other? You can't rank everything. Bluesteel's point here is a non-issue.

== Mental Acuity/Fatigue/Downtime ==

These are fairly related points. Bluesteel argues that mafia improves mental acuity and that downtime is good for the brain. But again these arguments can't stand on their own because if mafia is "downtime" when the brain rests and recharges, then people don't actually perform at full steam thus failing to realize the benefits of mafia. Zaroette utterly destroys this argument with her "fatigue" rebuttal where she points out that if you play mafia after a long day of work, then you are not actually realizing the supposed benefits that bluesteel argues for i.e. the improvement in reading people and mental acuity.

== Regret ==

This was actually a pretty strong point in that there is a pretty large opportunity cost to mafia. Zaroette points out that the time spent playing mafia is time that could be used for achieving dreams. And when that time passes and dreams are not achieved, people will come to regret their time playing mafia. Bluesteel's first response is that mafia isn't mutually exclusive with reading a book etc. But this completely ignores that you can't be in two places at once. You can't read a book AND play mafia at the same time. To play mafia, you have to NOT do something else that you would have done if you didn't play mafia. Time is limited and there is *always* an opportunity cost. Bluesteel does not seem to understand the concept of time. Bluesteel then argues that he has never spoken to a person who regretted playing mafia. That is completely nonsensical and anecdotal. I regret playing mafia. Why didn't he interview me? Mafia has destroyed my life as I play mafia when I should be doing more productive things. Besides he never undermines Zaroette's logic that a lost opportunity will cause people to regret it. He also strawmans her with the Chess arguments but doesn't account for the fact that Chess provides rigorous mental benefits.

== Stress ==

Playing mafia is stressful. Zaroette starts out by mentioning that people analyze every word of your post while also arguing that it takes a significant amount of your time in real life. Bluesteel counters that the stress is too small to be significant - you only get lynched. But this doesn't explain the multiple times that bluesteel has avoided being lynched by replacing out of games in frustration, outing his scumteam etc. If the stress is so low as to be insignificant, why would bluesteel take mafia so seriously and be so passionate whenever it feels like he is either getting lynched or losing games? This point is a clear win for Zaroette as she points out that the stress of mafia can negatively affect people's lives. Bluesteel then argues that stress is good (lol). He also argues that he need not show that mafia is socially beneficial. This fails to address Zaroette's argument that it is DETRIMENTAL to socialization because it takes time away when it could have been used for socialization. Bluesteel essentially stuck his fingers in his ears and yelled "neener, neener" but he failed to take into account that this was actually an offensive argument by Zaroette as opposed to the pre-emptive defense bluesteel made it out to be.

== Summary ==

Zaroette shows quite clearly that mafia causes stress and regret, results in lost opportunity cost, and the time spent could be better used doing something else. Bluesteel's responses are self-contradictory (if mafia is downtime, how will you use it to develop mental acuity? It is one or the other), and he also seems to not understand how time works (you can't perm Zaroette's argument and say "do both" because you can't do two things at the same time). Ultimately, this proves to be a crucial win for Zaroette as the resolution argued that mafia is a waste of time. Bluesteel can't make extra time appear out of nowhere for the purpose of playing mafia. Great debate.

Emphatic win by Zaroette. VOTE PRO.
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
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4/1/2015 4:11:55 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
I'll go through a few of the RFDs and comment on them:

1) Zaradi: https://docs.google.com...

Zaradi provides a thorough argument in Google Docs but he places undue emphasis on just two points: Happiness and congnitive abilities. This RFD argues that people will only regret mafia if it is a waste of time but this is an argument that actually works in reverse. Mafia is a waste of time because people regret playing it. Waste of time is determined by what people regret doing. This seems to just parrot bluesteel's argument in the final round without considering the implications.

Zaradi also for no reason says that we can do things other than mafia while also playing mafia while not taking into account Zaroette's argument that time is limited so playing mafia means you are not doing something else. Zaradi also ignores the double bind Zarotte put in bluesteel in by pointing out that either people will get fatigued by reading people or that is "downtime," hence people are not actually exercising their cognitive abilities. Overall, a pretty piece of sh1t RFD typical of Zaradi where he only votes bluesteel because bluesteel is bluesteel. Also, he seems to have a grudge against Zaroette. It is nonsensical garbage.
Zaradi
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4/1/2015 3:25:47 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/1/2015 4:11:55 AM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
I'll go through a few of the RFDs and comment on them:

1) Zaradi: https://docs.google.com...

Zaradi provides a thorough argument in Google Docs but he places undue emphasis on just two points: Happiness and congnitive abilities. This RFD argues that people will only regret mafia if it is a waste of time but this is an argument that actually works in reverse. Mafia is a waste of time because people regret playing it. Waste of time is determined by what people regret doing. This seems to just parrot bluesteel's argument in the final round without considering the implications.

Zaradi also for no reason says that we can do things other than mafia while also playing mafia while not taking into account Zaroette's argument that time is limited so playing mafia means you are not doing something else. Zaradi also ignores the double bind Zarotte put in bluesteel in by pointing out that either people will get fatigued by reading people or that is "downtime," hence people are not actually exercising their cognitive abilities. Overall, a pretty piece of sh1t RFD typical of Zaradi where he only votes bluesteel because bluesteel is bluesteel. Also, he seems to have a grudge against Zaroette. It is nonsensical garbage.

Nice troll m8
Want to debate? Pick a topic and hit me up! - http://www.debate.org...
Zarroette
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4/1/2015 4:44:11 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/1/2015 3:48:36 AM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
I wanted to figure out how good the debater known as "bluesteel" really is so I've evaluated his latest debate to check up on his debating skills. As it turns out, up-and-coming debater Zaroette utterly destroys him suggesting that DDO has a new best debater. Check it out in my latest RFD:

Debate: (http://www.debate.org...): On balance mafia is a waste of time.

My RFD:

== Opportunity Cost/Infinitely regressive ==

Zaroette starts by pointing out the massive opportunity cost to mafia explaining the various other things that a person could be doing including reading, working out, etc. bluesteel tries to counter with an infinite regress argument which makes sense on the surface but doesn't address the meat of what Zaroette said and is in fact self-contradictory. If bluesteel is suggesting that perfect is the enemy of good, he pretty much concedes Zaro's case that people ought to do something "good" in lieu of playing mafia. So, working out at home is good. It doesn't matter that you can do better things like working out at a gym and bluesteel's perfection argument destroys itself. This is especially strengthened by Zaroette pointing out that most things are *objectively* better than mafia. bluesteel has no answer to this and is completely evades the issue by asking her to "rank" the alternatives. This is totally meaningless. Studying and working are both better than watching TV but are they better than each other? You can't rank everything. Bluesteel's point here is a non-issue.

Yeah, this argument missed the point and was ultimately irrelevant to the debate, but the reason people think it was legitimate because me opening arguments were subject to this argument. Once I realised this, I changed my argument, but I didn't say anything about it. This confused Whiteflame (which I now don't blame him for), so the lesser voters were almost guaranteed to not understand.

== Mental Acuity/Fatigue/Downtime ==

These are fairly related points. Bluesteel argues that mafia improves mental acuity and that downtime is good for the brain. But again these arguments can't stand on their own because if mafia is "downtime" when the brain rests and recharges, then people don't actually perform at full steam thus failing to realize the benefits of mafia. Zaroette utterly destroys this argument with her "fatigue" rebuttal where she points out that if you play mafia after a long day of work, then you are not actually realizing the supposed benefits that bluesteel argues for i.e. the improvement in reading people and mental acuity.

I'm not sure I weighted the impacts well enough here, but you described the potential this contention had for me.


== Regret ==

This was actually a pretty strong point in that there is a pretty large opportunity cost to mafia. Zaroette points out that the time spent playing mafia is time that could be used for achieving dreams. And when that time passes and dreams are not achieved, people will come to regret their time playing mafia. Bluesteel's first response is that mafia isn't mutually exclusive with reading a book etc. But this completely ignores that you can't be in two places at once. You can't read a book AND play mafia at the same time. To play mafia, you have to NOT do something else that you would have done if you didn't play mafia. Time is limited and there is *always* an opportunity cost. Bluesteel does not seem to understand the concept of time. Bluesteel then argues that he has never spoken to a person who regretted playing mafia. That is completely nonsensical and anecdotal. I regret playing mafia. Why didn't he interview me? Mafia has destroyed my life as I play mafia when I should be doing more productive things. Besides he never undermines Zaroette's logic that a lost opportunity will cause people to regret it. He also strawmans her with the Chess arguments but doesn't account for the fact that Chess provides rigorous mental benefits.

This is how I tried to mould my comparative arguments that were subject to infinite regression. I thought that instead of having the comparisons themselves the impacts (thereby meaning that you could always do better, hence unless you're doing the absolute best with your life, you're wasting your time), I had regret as the impact. Again, I'm not sure this is sufficiently weighted, but this had the potential to win the debate.

== Stress ==

Playing mafia is stressful. Zaroette starts out by mentioning that people analyze every word of your post while also arguing that it takes a significant amount of your time in real life. Bluesteel counters that the stress is too small to be significant - you only get lynched. But this doesn't explain the multiple times that bluesteel has avoided being lynched by replacing out of games in frustration, outing his scumteam etc. If the stress is so low as to be insignificant, why would bluesteel take mafia so seriously and be so passionate whenever it feels like he is either getting lynched or losing games? This point is a clear win for Zaroette as she points out that the stress of mafia can negatively affect people's lives. Bluesteel then argues that stress is good (lol). He also argues that he need not show that mafia is socially beneficial. This fails to address Zaroette's argument that it is DETRIMENTAL to socialization because it takes time away when it could have been used for socialization. Bluesteel essentially stuck his fingers in his ears and yelled "neener, neener" but he failed to take into account that this was actually an offensive argument by Zaroette as opposed to the pre-emptive defense bluesteel made it out to be.

I don't think I won this point and I don't think I could have. Mentally stimulating things, I found, have relatively low levels of stress.

The socialisation point suffered from lack of impact, too, imo.


== Summary ==

Zaroette shows quite clearly that mafia causes stress and regret, results in lost opportunity cost, and the time spent could be better used doing something else. Bluesteel's responses are self-contradictory (if mafia is downtime, how will you use it to develop mental acuity? It is one or the other), and he also seems to not understand how time works (you can't perm Zaroette's argument and say "do both" because you can't do two things at the same time). Ultimately, this proves to be a crucial win for Zaroette as the resolution argued that mafia is a waste of time. Bluesteel can't make extra time appear out of nowhere for the purpose of playing mafia. Great debate.

Emphatic win by Zaroette. VOTE PRO.
Zarroette
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4/1/2015 4:46:52 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Btw, I'm well aware this is likely an April Fool's prank, but I was a lot closer to winning that debate convincing than people realise.
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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4/1/2015 4:48:31 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/1/2015 4:46:52 PM, Zarroette wrote:
Btw, I'm well aware this is likely an April Fool's prank, but I was a lot closer to winning that debate convincing than people realise.

Do you want to hydra with me in Mikal's game?
Zarroette
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4/1/2015 4:49:26 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/1/2015 4:48:31 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 4/1/2015 4:46:52 PM, Zarroette wrote:
Btw, I'm well aware this is likely an April Fool's prank, but I was a lot closer to winning that debate convincing than people realise.

Do you want to hydra with me in Mikal's game?

What on Earth are you talking about?
Wylted
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4/1/2015 4:50:45 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/1/2015 4:49:26 PM, Zarroette wrote:
At 4/1/2015 4:48:31 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 4/1/2015 4:46:52 PM, Zarroette wrote:
Btw, I'm well aware this is likely an April Fool's prank, but I was a lot closer to winning that debate convincing than people realise.

Do you want to hydra with me in Mikal's game?

What on Earth are you talking about?

It means we share a PM and basically play the same character and stuff
Zarroette
Posts: 2,951
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4/1/2015 4:51:17 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/1/2015 4:50:45 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 4/1/2015 4:49:26 PM, Zarroette wrote:
At 4/1/2015 4:48:31 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 4/1/2015 4:46:52 PM, Zarroette wrote:
Btw, I'm well aware this is likely an April Fool's prank, but I was a lot closer to winning that debate convincing than people realise.

Do you want to hydra with me in Mikal's game?

What on Earth are you talking about?

It means we share a PM and basically play the same character and stuff

Play as in play Mafia?
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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4/1/2015 4:52:15 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/1/2015 4:51:17 PM, Zarroette wrote:
At 4/1/2015 4:50:45 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 4/1/2015 4:49:26 PM, Zarroette wrote:
At 4/1/2015 4:48:31 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 4/1/2015 4:46:52 PM, Zarroette wrote:
Btw, I'm well aware this is likely an April Fool's prank, but I was a lot closer to winning that debate convincing than people realise.

Do you want to hydra with me in Mikal's game?

What on Earth are you talking about?

It means we share a PM and basically play the same character and stuff

Play as in play Mafia?

Yes, did you have something else in mind?
Zarroette
Posts: 2,951
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4/1/2015 4:54:29 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/1/2015 4:52:15 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 4/1/2015 4:51:17 PM, Zarroette wrote:
At 4/1/2015 4:50:45 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 4/1/2015 4:49:26 PM, Zarroette wrote:
At 4/1/2015 4:48:31 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 4/1/2015 4:46:52 PM, Zarroette wrote:
Btw, I'm well aware this is likely an April Fool's prank, but I was a lot closer to winning that debate convincing than people realise.

Do you want to hydra with me in Mikal's game?

What on Earth are you talking about?

It means we share a PM and basically play the same character and stuff

Play as in play Mafia?

Yes, did you have something else in mind?

I didn't have anything else in mind, but I'm sure you had a few fantasies play-out in your mind ;)
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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4/1/2015 4:56:25 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/1/2015 4:54:29 PM, Zarroette wrote:
At 4/1/2015 4:52:15 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 4/1/2015 4:51:17 PM, Zarroette wrote:
At 4/1/2015 4:50:45 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 4/1/2015 4:49:26 PM, Zarroette wrote:
At 4/1/2015 4:48:31 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 4/1/2015 4:46:52 PM, Zarroette wrote:
Btw, I'm well aware this is likely an April Fool's prank, but I was a lot closer to winning that debate convincing than people realise.

Do you want to hydra with me in Mikal's game?

What on Earth are you talking about?

It means we share a PM and basically play the same character and stuff

Play as in play Mafia?

Yes, did you have something else in mind?

I didn't have anything else in mind, but I'm sure you had a few fantasies play-out in your mind ;)

I am not a violent person, so nobody has to worry about me acting out my fantasies.
Zarroette
Posts: 2,951
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4/1/2015 4:59:55 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/1/2015 4:56:25 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 4/1/2015 4:54:29 PM, Zarroette wrote:
At 4/1/2015 4:52:15 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 4/1/2015 4:51:17 PM, Zarroette wrote:
At 4/1/2015 4:50:45 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 4/1/2015 4:49:26 PM, Zarroette wrote:
At 4/1/2015 4:48:31 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 4/1/2015 4:46:52 PM, Zarroette wrote:
Btw, I'm well aware this is likely an April Fool's prank, but I was a lot closer to winning that debate convincing than people realise.

Do you want to hydra with me in Mikal's game?

What on Earth are you talking about?

It means we share a PM and basically play the same character and stuff

Play as in play Mafia?

Yes, did you have something else in mind?

I didn't have anything else in mind, but I'm sure you had a few fantasies play-out in your mind ;)

I am not a violent person, so nobody has to worry about me acting out my fantasies.

The funny thing is that your fiance is probably disappointed with that.
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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4/1/2015 5:05:15 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/1/2015 4:59:55 PM, Zarroette wrote:
At 4/1/2015 4:56:25 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 4/1/2015 4:54:29 PM, Zarroette wrote:
At 4/1/2015 4:52:15 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 4/1/2015 4:51:17 PM, Zarroette wrote:
At 4/1/2015 4:50:45 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 4/1/2015 4:49:26 PM, Zarroette wrote:
At 4/1/2015 4:48:31 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 4/1/2015 4:46:52 PM, Zarroette wrote:
Btw, I'm well aware this is likely an April Fool's prank, but I was a lot closer to winning that debate convincing than people realise.

Do you want to hydra with me in Mikal's game?

What on Earth are you talking about?

It means we share a PM and basically play the same character and stuff

Play as in play Mafia?

Yes, did you have something else in mind?

I didn't have anything else in mind, but I'm sure you had a few fantasies play-out in your mind ;)

I am not a violent person, so nobody has to worry about me acting out my fantasies.

The funny thing is that your fiance is probably disappointed with that.

She is, but I am not sure how you guessed that. She is so mad about my gentleness. Even when I get rough, I don't seem to take it far enough for her.
Zarroette
Posts: 2,951
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4/1/2015 5:09:07 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/1/2015 5:05:15 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 4/1/2015 4:59:55 PM, Zarroette wrote:
At 4/1/2015 4:56:25 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 4/1/2015 4:54:29 PM, Zarroette wrote:
At 4/1/2015 4:52:15 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 4/1/2015 4:51:17 PM, Zarroette wrote:
At 4/1/2015 4:50:45 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 4/1/2015 4:49:26 PM, Zarroette wrote:
At 4/1/2015 4:48:31 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 4/1/2015 4:46:52 PM, Zarroette wrote:
Btw, I'm well aware this is likely an April Fool's prank, but I was a lot closer to winning that debate convincing than people realise.

Do you want to hydra with me in Mikal's game?

What on Earth are you talking about?

It means we share a PM and basically play the same character and stuff

Play as in play Mafia?

Yes, did you have something else in mind?

I didn't have anything else in mind, but I'm sure you had a few fantasies play-out in your mind ;)

I am not a violent person, so nobody has to worry about me acting out my fantasies.

The funny thing is that your fiance is probably disappointed with that.

She is, but I am not sure how you guessed that. She is so mad about my gentleness. Even when I get rough, I don't seem to take it far enough for her.

I understand male and female sexuality very well and expected you to agree with me :)

The biggest misconception/misunderstanding about what women want is that they like it gentle.

Anyway, I'm going to stop derailing this thread.
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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4/1/2015 5:10:48 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/1/2015 5:09:07 PM, Zarroette wrote:
At 4/1/2015 5:05:15 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 4/1/2015 4:59:55 PM, Zarroette wrote:
At 4/1/2015 4:56:25 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 4/1/2015 4:54:29 PM, Zarroette wrote:
At 4/1/2015 4:52:15 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 4/1/2015 4:51:17 PM, Zarroette wrote:
At 4/1/2015 4:50:45 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 4/1/2015 4:49:26 PM, Zarroette wrote:
At 4/1/2015 4:48:31 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 4/1/2015 4:46:52 PM, Zarroette wrote:
Btw, I'm well aware this is likely an April Fool's prank, but I was a lot closer to winning that debate convincing than people realise.

Do you want to hydra with me in Mikal's game?

What on Earth are you talking about?

It means we share a PM and basically play the same character and stuff

Play as in play Mafia?

Yes, did you have something else in mind?

I didn't have anything else in mind, but I'm sure you had a few fantasies play-out in your mind ;)

I am not a violent person, so nobody has to worry about me acting out my fantasies.

The funny thing is that your fiance is probably disappointed with that.

She is, but I am not sure how you guessed that. She is so mad about my gentleness. Even when I get rough, I don't seem to take it far enough for her.

I understand male and female sexuality very well and expected you to agree with me :)

The biggest misconception/misunderstanding about what women want is that they like it gentle.

Anyway, I'm going to stop derailing this thread.

no, keep going.
tejretics
Posts: 6,093
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4/1/2016 8:12:09 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
Seeing as it is April Fools' Day, I'm bumping this thread.
"Where justice is denied, where poverty is enforced, where ignorance prevails, and where any one class is made to feel that society is an organized conspiracy to oppress, rob and degrade them, neither persons nor property will be safe." - Frederick Douglass
Raisor
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4/1/2016 2:47:21 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/1/2016 8:12:09 AM, tejretics wrote:
Seeing as it is April Fools' Day, I'm bumping this thread.

This wasn't a joke. It was a major upset at the time- bluesteel didn't perform well and zaroette was on top of her game. I don't want to relitigate this controversy, but read the debate yourself and see.
lannan13
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4/1/2016 3:45:52 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/1/2016 2:47:21 PM, Raisor wrote:
At 4/1/2016 8:12:09 AM, tejretics wrote:
Seeing as it is April Fools' Day, I'm bumping this thread.

This wasn't a joke. It was a major upset at the time- bluesteel didn't perform well and zaroette was on top of her game. I don't want to relitigate this controversy, but read the debate yourself and see.

Bluesteel still won, but at what cost?
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Ragnar
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4/1/2016 6:25:30 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/1/2016 3:45:52 PM, lannan13 wrote:
At 4/1/2016 2:47:21 PM, Raisor wrote:
At 4/1/2016 8:12:09 AM, tejretics wrote:
Seeing as it is April Fools' Day, I'm bumping this thread.

This wasn't a joke. It was a major upset at the time- bluesteel didn't perform well and zaroette was on top of her game. I don't want to relitigate this controversy, but read the debate yourself and see.

Bluesteel still won, but at what cost?

To each voter the outcome and reasons for it is different. Me for example, I did not buy the Moving The Goalpost line of reasoning Bluesteel's case was dependent on. So the victory is highly subjective. It was however a good debate, which in itself means more than victory or loss.
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tejretics
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4/2/2016 2:01:15 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/1/2016 2:47:21 PM, Raisor wrote:
At 4/1/2016 8:12:09 AM, tejretics wrote:
Seeing as it is April Fools' Day, I'm bumping this thread.

This wasn't a joke. It was a major upset at the time- bluesteel didn't perform well and zaroette was on top of her game. I don't want to relitigate this controversy, but read the debate yourself and see.

lol
"Where justice is denied, where poverty is enforced, where ignorance prevails, and where any one class is made to feel that society is an organized conspiracy to oppress, rob and degrade them, neither persons nor property will be safe." - Frederick Douglass