Total Posts:164|Showing Posts:1-30|Last Page
Jump to topic:

Voting Discussion: Referendum on Moderation

bluesteel
Posts: 12,301
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/6/2015 7:44:33 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Recently, a small number of users have expressed dissatisfaction with vote moderation on the site. Their grievances include: that S&G votes are removed if they are clearly strategic, e.g. they vote for S&G due to a single word being misspelled.

One user said, "What you apparently do not understand is that there are no rules on this website for voting except the ones bluesteel deems are rules. The rest are just 'guide lines'...what matters is bluesteel's authority on this issue, an authority sanctioned by no one other than airmax."

It has been suggested (e.g. above) that the voting criteria I have been enforcing are arbitrary, unreasonable, and undesirable, and that the vast majority of DDO disagrees with the current moderation policies and with me having authority as a moderator. Is this true? As I've said before, if the site consensus is against having vote moderation or you want me to enforce a much lower standard (e.g. removing only the worst 7 point vote bombs), then I'm happy to do so. It certainly lightens my workload.

So drop a comment saying whether you agree or disagree with the above. I'm happy to abide by the site consensus, whatever it happens to be.
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/6/2015 7:46:18 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/6/2015 7:44:33 AM, bluesteel wrote:
Recently, a small number of users have expressed dissatisfaction with vote moderation on the site. Their grievances include: that S&G votes are removed if they are clearly strategic, e.g. they vote for S&G due to a single word being misspelled.

One user said, "What you apparently do not understand is that there are no rules on this website for voting except the ones bluesteel deems are rules. The rest are just 'guide lines'...what matters is bluesteel's authority on this issue, an authority sanctioned by no one other than airmax."

It has been suggested (e.g. above) that the voting criteria I have been enforcing are arbitrary, unreasonable, and undesirable, and that the vast majority of DDO disagrees with the current moderation policies and with me having authority as a moderator. Is this true? As I've said before, if the site consensus is against having vote moderation or you want me to enforce a much lower standard (e.g. removing only the worst 7 point vote bombs), then I'm happy to do so. It certainly lightens my workload.

So drop a comment saying whether you agree or disagree with the above. I'm happy to abide by the site consensus, whatever it happens to be.

The only people who aren't happy with the voting moderation are people whose opinions shouldn't count anyway. I'm happy to see this taking place.

I vote to keep Blusteel
Genghis_Khan
Posts: 480
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/6/2015 7:50:24 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
I vote for bluesteel.

It's amusing to me that only bad voters (i.e. wrich, garb, chuz, random noobs) have a problem with the new voting policies.
anything your heart desires
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/6/2015 7:52:39 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
The funny thing is the people who hate the voting moderation are the same people who are the least likeliest to win if both sides of a vote, petitioned for BS votes. Popularity matters when getting stupid votes and the least popular members who benefit most from voter moderation are against it, it's odd.
XLAV
Posts: 13,710
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/6/2015 7:55:26 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Don't listen to the inferior people.

Even though I don't debate much, I still get annoyed by sh*tty votes. You are doing everyone a favor by removing sh*tty votes. Doing what you're doing has improved the site and I don't see why you should step down.
YYW
Posts: 36,263
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/6/2015 7:57:21 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/6/2015 7:44:33 AM, bluesteel wrote:
Recently, a small number of users have expressed dissatisfaction with vote moderation on the site. Their grievances include: that S&G votes are removed if they are clearly strategic, e.g. they vote for S&G due to a single word being misspelled.

One user said, "What you apparently do not understand is that there are no rules on this website for voting except the ones bluesteel deems are rules. The rest are just 'guide lines'...what matters is bluesteel's authority on this issue, an authority sanctioned by no one other than airmax."

It has been suggested (e.g. above) that the voting criteria I have been enforcing are arbitrary, unreasonable, and undesirable, and that the vast majority of DDO disagrees with the current moderation policies and with me having authority as a moderator. Is this true? As I've said before, if the site consensus is against having vote moderation or you want me to enforce a much lower standard (e.g. removing only the worst 7 point vote bombs), then I'm happy to do so. It certainly lightens my workload.

So drop a comment saying whether you agree or disagree with the above. I'm happy to abide by the site consensus, whatever it happens to be.

The issue here is that incompetent judges complain about being called out on their incompetence. Catering to their absurdity isn't something I'm concerned with, and I'm certainly not in favor of lowering any standard in acquiescence of their demands.

What needs to happen is pretty simple, all in all:

The judges who have had their votes removed need to be ignored. And that's the end of the problem, unless they can provide substantive reasons why it was actually a mistake to remove their votes. It's my general suspicion that they cannot, and the beginning and end of why they think the system is "arbitrary" is because they don't understand the criteria for evaluation.

Pity. This might also be why they're incompetent judges.

/end.
Tsar of DDO
RevNge
Posts: 13,835
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/6/2015 8:04:16 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/6/2015 7:44:33 AM, bluesteel wrote:
Recently, a small number of users have expressed dissatisfaction with vote moderation on the site. Their grievances include: that S&G votes are removed if they are clearly strategic, e.g. they vote for S&G due to a single word being misspelled.

One user said, "What you apparently do not understand is that there are no rules on this website for voting except the ones bluesteel deems are rules. The rest are just 'guide lines'...what matters is bluesteel's authority on this issue, an authority sanctioned by no one other than airmax."

It has been suggested (e.g. above) that the voting criteria I have been enforcing are arbitrary, unreasonable, and undesirable, and that the vast majority of DDO disagrees with the current moderation policies and with me having authority as a moderator. Is this true? As I've said before, if the site consensus is against having vote moderation or you want me to enforce a much lower standard (e.g. removing only the worst 7 point vote bombs), then I'm happy to do so. It certainly lightens my workload.

So drop a comment saying whether you agree or disagree with the above. I'm happy to abide by the site consensus, whatever it happens to be.

Don't listen to them noobs m8

xX0N3$H0TXx them with your vote-ban hammer if they keep talkin' smack about you. :P
ClashnBoom
Posts: 886
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/6/2015 8:06:07 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Well,instead of being fully against or for you I will just state my observations.
My first observation is that your actually a good user trying to do her responsibilities but your still a human being meaning your judgement varies on your emotions.

My second observation is the guidelines it is not detailed enough. You should change the name of the guidelines and call it rules.

My third observation is if you take away someone's rights then they annoy you then you will be much less tolerant of them once they get their privileges back.

In the end I think you should not be changed by another member but you should change some things about yourself.

I'm sorry for my spelling and grammar. I hope this was of use to you.
I will change my sig weekly. Week 4.

Fun fact of the week
Clumsy alien Jar Jar Binks was introduced in The Phantom Menace for comic relief, but he was initially a two-faced mercenary who was to betray Qui-Gon Jinn, a Jedi Master played by Liam Neeson.

Joke of the week:
Nerd 1: "Why can't you trust atoms?"
Nerd 2: : "Cause they make everything up!"
ResponsiblyIrresponsible
Posts: 12,398
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/6/2015 8:13:49 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
No, I don't agree with these whiny, incompetent judges, propelled only by their frustration at having had their lackluster votes rightfully removed.

As I've said before, I don't think voting moderation has ever been as good as it has been since Bluesteel took on the role of voting mod. That, of course, is not intended as an attack on Max, who is obviously extremely competent and needs to sign off on every decision nevertheless. But I think there has been a shift such that votes must now meet a higher standard, and that's something I'm extremely glad to see. I can't tell you how frustrating it is to see a vague, strategic S&G vote pass a low "permissibility" bar, in spite of the fact that no reasonable person would actually defend the vote, or the judge, or argue that there's solid evidence that the judge actually read the debate before casting his ballot.

tl;dr: Keep it up, Bluesteel. You're doing a fine job, and should be lauded for it.
~ResponsiblyIrresponsible

DDO's Economics Messiah
Arcanas
Posts: 198
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/6/2015 8:19:40 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/6/2015 7:44:33 AM, bluesteel wrote:
Recently, a small number of users have expressed dissatisfaction with vote moderation on the site. Their grievances include: that S&G votes are removed if they are clearly strategic, e.g. they vote for S&G due to a single word being misspelled.

One user said, "What you apparently do not understand is that there are no rules on this website for voting except the ones bluesteel deems are rules. The rest are just 'guide lines'...what matters is bluesteel's authority on this issue, an authority sanctioned by no one other than airmax."

It has been suggested (e.g. above) that the voting criteria I have been enforcing are arbitrary, unreasonable, and undesirable, and that the vast majority of DDO disagrees with the current moderation policies and with me having authority as a moderator. Is this true? As I've said before, if the site consensus is against having vote moderation or you want me to enforce a much lower standard (e.g. removing only the worst 7 point vote bombs), then I'm happy to do so. It certainly lightens my workload.

So drop a comment saying whether you agree or disagree with the above. I'm happy to abide by the site consensus, whatever it happens to be.

I like the current moderation on votes (Making sure that the votes which are clearly ungenuine/fake get cleared). It decreases the possibility of unfair voting results.
Daltonian
Posts: 4,797
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/6/2015 8:20:35 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
I was actually hoping you would make this thread, because some users were spewing falsehoods like you were going against community standards and defying the wishes of the majority of the site or something.

You're doing an excellent job, and the quality of votes on DDO is the best it's been since I first joined. Don't let the inevitable arrogance and whininess that comes along with removing biased votes get you down :)
F _ C K
All I need is "u", baby
Daltonian
Posts: 4,797
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/6/2015 8:23:55 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/6/2015 8:17:56 AM, Genghis_Khan wrote:
That's 8-1 bluesteel.
I'm tempted to keep a running tally, just for flaunting it in peoples faces afterwards.. lol
F _ C K
All I need is "u", baby
ClashnBoom
Posts: 886
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/6/2015 8:25:08 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/6/2015 8:17:56 AM, Genghis_Khan wrote:
That's 6-1 bluesteel.

Whose the one?
I will change my sig weekly. Week 4.

Fun fact of the week
Clumsy alien Jar Jar Binks was introduced in The Phantom Menace for comic relief, but he was initially a two-faced mercenary who was to betray Qui-Gon Jinn, a Jedi Master played by Liam Neeson.

Joke of the week:
Nerd 1: "Why can't you trust atoms?"
Nerd 2: : "Cause they make everything up!"
Genghis_Khan
Posts: 480
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/6/2015 8:25:49 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/6/2015 8:23:55 AM, Daltonian wrote:
At 4/6/2015 8:17:56 AM, Genghis_Khan wrote:
That's 8-1 bluesteel.
I'm tempted to keep a running tally, just for flaunting it in peoples faces afterwards.. lol

That's precisely what I was aiming to do :P
anything your heart desires
Genghis_Khan
Posts: 480
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/6/2015 8:26:37 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/6/2015 8:25:08 AM, ClashnBoom wrote:
At 4/6/2015 8:17:56 AM, Genghis_Khan wrote:
That's 6-1 bluesteel.

Whose the one?

You. I'm being generous to the anti-bluesteel side just for lolz.
anything your heart desires
Garbanza
Posts: 1,997
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/6/2015 8:29:19 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/6/2015 7:44:33 AM, bluesteel wrote:
Recently, a small number of users have expressed dissatisfaction with vote moderation on the site. ..

Yep. Chuz_life thought one vote removal was unfair and I agreed with him. You're handling it by doing a popularity referendum. Okay, well, I concede at once that you're more popular than me and Chuz_life. Yay for you. Not really sure what the connection is with the points we raised, but, hey, why not make this as personal and dramatic as possible!!! That way, people can see what happens to them if they dare question your decisions. Nice one.
ClashnBoom
Posts: 886
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/6/2015 8:31:39 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/6/2015 8:26:37 AM, Genghis_Khan wrote:
At 4/6/2015 8:25:08 AM, ClashnBoom wrote:
At 4/6/2015 8:17:56 AM, Genghis_Khan wrote:
That's 6-1 bluesteel.

Whose the one?

You. I'm being generous to the anti-bluesteel side just for lolz.

Me? I was afraid your reply would be something like that. I am not fully against or for Bluesteel I was just stating my observations cause people who say Bluesteel is dumb fail to say why and people who say Bluesteel is just fails to help Bluesteel be better.
I will change my sig weekly. Week 4.

Fun fact of the week
Clumsy alien Jar Jar Binks was introduced in The Phantom Menace for comic relief, but he was initially a two-faced mercenary who was to betray Qui-Gon Jinn, a Jedi Master played by Liam Neeson.

Joke of the week:
Nerd 1: "Why can't you trust atoms?"
Nerd 2: : "Cause they make everything up!"
Arcanas
Posts: 198
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/6/2015 8:38:10 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/6/2015 8:29:19 AM, Garbanza wrote:
At 4/6/2015 7:44:33 AM, bluesteel wrote:
Recently, a small number of users have expressed dissatisfaction with vote moderation on the site. ..

Yep. Chuz_life thought one vote removal was unfair and I agreed with him. You're handling it by doing a popularity referendum. Okay, well, I concede at once that you're more popular than me and Chuz_life. Yay for you. Not really sure what the connection is with the points we raised, but, hey, why not make this as personal and dramatic as possible!!! That way, people can see what happens to them if they dare question your decisions. Nice one.

It isn't a thread about who favors bluesteel at all. It's about whether the community believes that the way votes are currently being managed is good or not. In fact, you are currently the only one on this thread attempting to tie this in with a popularity contest...
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/6/2015 8:39:50 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/6/2015 8:29:19 AM, Garbanza wrote:
At 4/6/2015 7:44:33 AM, bluesteel wrote:
Recently, a small number of users have expressed dissatisfaction with vote moderation on the site. ..

Yep. Chuz_life thought one vote removal was unfair and I agreed with him. You're handling it by doing a popularity referendum. Okay, well, I concede at once that you're more popular than me and Chuz_life. Yay for you. Not really sure what the connection is with the points we raised, but, hey, why not make this as personal and dramatic as possible!!! That way, people can see what happens to them if they dare question your decisions. Nice one.

What points do you have against what he's doing? It seems like he is only removing unjustified or poorly justified votes. He is not even inserting his personal opinion on what qualifies as a justified vote, as long as people are being reasonable with their justifications.
YYW
Posts: 36,263
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/6/2015 8:46:31 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
The observation that bluesteel is removing votes based on popularity is false, and should be disregarded.
Tsar of DDO
YYW
Posts: 36,263
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/6/2015 8:47:02 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/6/2015 8:39:50 AM, Wylted wrote:
At 4/6/2015 8:29:19 AM, Garbanza wrote:
At 4/6/2015 7:44:33 AM, bluesteel wrote:
Recently, a small number of users have expressed dissatisfaction with vote moderation on the site. ..

Yep. Chuz_life thought one vote removal was unfair and I agreed with him. You're handling it by doing a popularity referendum. Okay, well, I concede at once that you're more popular than me and Chuz_life. Yay for you. Not really sure what the connection is with the points we raised, but, hey, why not make this as personal and dramatic as possible!!! That way, people can see what happens to them if they dare question your decisions. Nice one.

What points do you have against what he's doing? It seems like he is only removing unjustified or poorly justified votes. He is not even inserting his personal opinion on what qualifies as a justified vote, as long as people are being reasonable with their justifications.

She doesn't even understand what he's doing... but yet she has an opinion on it.

#irony
Tsar of DDO
wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/6/2015 8:47:15 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/6/2015 8:29:19 AM, Garbanza wrote:
At 4/6/2015 7:44:33 AM, bluesteel wrote:
Recently, a small number of users have expressed dissatisfaction with vote moderation on the site. ..

Yep. Chuz_life thought one vote removal was unfair and I agreed with him. You're handling it by doing a popularity referendum. Okay, well, I concede at once that you're more popular than me and Chuz_life. Yay for you. Not really sure what the connection is with the points we raised, but, hey, why not make this as personal and dramatic as possible!!! That way, people can see what happens to them if they dare question your decisions. Nice one.

This is an apt characterization of the stupidity that typifies the "standards" of this website. This is one reason why I don't see much merit in placing any significance on voting here, a reason that is dwarfed by the almost complete and utterly statistically insignificant sampling of votes that typically determine the victor of a debate, and apparently this thread as well.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
Garbanza
Posts: 1,997
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/6/2015 8:47:36 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/6/2015 7:44:33 AM, bluesteel wrote:
It has been suggested (e.g. above) that the voting criteria I have been enforcing are arbitrary, unreasonable, and undesirable, and that the vast majority of DDO disagrees with the current moderation policies and with me having authority as a moderator. Is this true?

YOU'RE the one who started talking about what the majority of people want or don't want. chuz_life's thread was about just one decision. Then, there was a discussion about one small part of moderation policy. You're the one who countered with the everyone-agrees-with-me-so-piss-off argument. Who cares that you can get people to line up and support you? That's how Mikal won the presidency and it was a fvcking disaster. This is the most pathetic overreaction to critical duscussion that I've seen in a while. Of course vote moderation should be open to complaint and criticism. You even agree to that. You shouldn't make this personal.
bluesteel
Posts: 12,301
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/6/2015 8:49:26 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/6/2015 8:29:19 AM, Garbanza wrote:
At 4/6/2015 7:44:33 AM, bluesteel wrote:
Recently, a small number of users have expressed dissatisfaction with vote moderation on the site. ..

Yep. Chuz_life thought one vote removal was unfair and I agreed with him. You're handling it by doing a popularity referendum. Okay, well, I concede at once that you're more popular than me and Chuz_life. Yay for you. Not really sure what the connection is with the points we raised, but, hey, why not make this as personal and dramatic as possible!!! That way, people can see what happens to them if they dare question your decisions. Nice one.

I explained the removal of Chuz's vote. It offered zero explanation for S&G.

You also claimed that there was no clear community support for this type of moderation, and I was therefore just applying my own arbitrary standards. You seemed to concede that the community has the right to establish its own rules; you just disagreed with whether they had. It's ironic that you and wrich both asked me to demonstrate a community consensus, then you call me out for doing what you asked.
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)
bluesteel
Posts: 12,301
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/6/2015 8:52:11 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/6/2015 8:47:36 AM, Garbanza wrote:
At 4/6/2015 7:44:33 AM, bluesteel wrote:
It has been suggested (e.g. above) that the voting criteria I have been enforcing are arbitrary, unreasonable, and undesirable, and that the vast majority of DDO disagrees with the current moderation policies and with me having authority as a moderator. Is this true?

YOU'RE the one who started talking about what the majority of people want or don't want. chuz_life's thread was about just one decision. Then, there was a discussion about one small part of moderation policy. You're the one who countered with the everyone-agrees-with-me-so-piss-off argument. Who cares that you can get people to line up and support you? That's how Mikal won the presidency and it was a fvcking disaster. This is the most pathetic overreaction to critical duscussion that I've seen in a while. Of course vote moderation should be open to complaint and criticism. You even agree to that. You shouldn't make this personal.

It's not personal. Here is the discussion you asked for. State your case against the current policies or against me. If people agree with you, I'll change the policies.
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/6/2015 8:53:26 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
You know what would make the crappy voters and good voters happy? Emulating Edeb8's voting system.

The bad voters, put very little effort into their vote, and will be happy to just have their voice heard, and the good voters who put a lot of effort in will be happy that their vote is weighted more heavily.
Garbanza
Posts: 1,997
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/6/2015 9:02:10 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/6/2015 8:49:26 AM, bluesteel wrote:
You also claimed that there was no clear community support for this type of moderation, and I was therefore just applying my own arbitrary standards.

No, I said the voting guidelines were different from your stated policy and you said there was consensus on the S&G/conduct rule and I said I wasn't aware if it. This thread is not about that at all. It's a popularity vote and has nothing to do with anything I said. I never claimed that you weren't popular or that you didn't have support as moderator, only that I was unaware of consensus relating to that particular rule.

You seemed to concede that the community has the right to establish its own rules; you just disagreed with whether they had. It's ironic that you and wrich both asked me to demonstrate a community consensus, then you call me out for doing what you asked.

Even if you get several dozen people to hop on here and praise you and insult me, you still won't have shown consensus relating to that rule or to any other of the issues I raised. And even if you did, it would still be unfair for the guidelines and moderator policy to be different. You can't change my opinion just by pointing out how popular you are and how unpopular I am. Otherwise you could win every argument on every topic by doing that.
Genghis_Khan
Posts: 480
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/6/2015 9:03:14 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/6/2015 8:53:26 AM, Wylted wrote:
You know what would make the crappy voters and good voters happy? Emulating Edeb8's voting system.

The bad voters, put very little effort into their vote, and will be happy to just have their voice heard, and the good voters who put a lot of effort in will be happy that their vote is weighted more heavily.

Problem: It's quite easy to BS the kind of effort necessary to make edeb8 weigh your vote more heavily. In fact, many of our residentbad voters are quite good at it.
anything your heart desires
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/6/2015 9:07:05 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/6/2015 9:03:14 AM, Genghis_Khan wrote:
At 4/6/2015 8:53:26 AM, Wylted wrote:
You know what would make the crappy voters and good voters happy? Emulating Edeb8's voting system.

The bad voters, put very little effort into their vote, and will be happy to just have their voice heard, and the good voters who put a lot of effort in will be happy that their vote is weighted more heavily.

Problem: It's quite easy to BS the kind of effort necessary to make edeb8 weigh your vote more heavily. In fact, many of our residentbad voters are quite good at it.

Well, it can be done regardless. At least it takes effort to beat the system.