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Project: Islam vs. The West

Yassine
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4/23/2015 11:42:46 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
- I've long being thinking of doing a Project revolving around Islam vs. West as a general Topic & featuring a series of debates within that Topic. I have a relatively good foundation on the Islamic Tradition & so I hope to create a sort of Clash of Civilisations between Islam & the West which should involve a great deal of exchanging ideas & sharing worldviews. I also hope western members of this site share my enthusiasm about the Project.

== The Project may involve a wide variety of subjects, each with relating topics, such as:

1. Religion: Scripture & Theology.
2. Law, Ethics & Politics.
3. Philosophy.
4. Science.
5. History & Civilisation.

== Examples of Topics:

1. Religion: Scripture & Theology.

> Prophet Muhammad vs. (someone or something).
> The Qur'an vs. (Bible or something).
> The Hadith vs. (something).
> Islam vs. Christianity.
> Islamic Theology vs. Christian Theology.
> God in Islam vs. (something).
> Islam vs. Atheism.

2. Law, Ethics & Politics.

> Islam vs Secularism/Laicism.
> Tolerance in Islam vs. (something).
> Moderation in Islam vs. (something).
> Shari'a Law vs. Common/Civil Law.
> Shari'a Criminal Law vs. Common/Civil Criminal Law.
> Islamic State vs. (another type).
> Islamic Tax System vs. (another type).
> The Preservation of the Environment in Islam vs. (another type).
> Islamic Finance/Economics vs. (another type).
> Jihad (Just War In Islam) vs. (another type).
> Women in Islam vs. Women in Christianity.
> Gender in Islam vs. (another type).
> Slavery In Islam vs. Slavery In Christianity.
> Slavery In Shari'a Law (Pro).

3. Philosophy & Science.

> Islam & Reason vs. Christianity & Reason.
> Reason/Revelation In Islam (Pro).
> Islamic Logic Is Mostly Independent From Greek/Roman Logic (Pro).
> Islamic Philosophy Is Mostly Independent From Greek/Roman Philosophy (Pro).
> Islamic Science Is Mostly Independent From Greek/Roman Science (Pro).
> Islamic (first, or second) Golden Age vs. Age of Enlightenment.
> Islam Inherently Hinders Development in STEM Fields (Con)(topic proposed by Envisage).

4. History & Civilisation.

> Islamic Conquests vs. The Colonial Period.
> Slaves In Islamic History vs. Slaves In Western History.
> Tolerance In Medieval Islam vs. Tolerance In Modern Europe.
> Arabs In History vs. (another type).
> Arabic vs. (another language).

== Contribution:

- What do you think about the Topics? Any ideas on how to improve them?
- Do you have any topics in mind you wanna share?
- What are the the most essential features of Western Civilisation according to you? Can you formulate them into a resolution for a debate?

- I am eager to hear about all your inputs, thank you.
Current Debates:

Islam is not a religion of peace vs. @ Lutonator:
* http://www.debate.org...
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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4/23/2015 11:57:39 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
I don't like this at all. The Islam v. Christianity suffices for most interesting topics, and those specific to the West (which Christianity is not) are very unclear.
Yassine
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4/23/2015 12:06:19 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/23/2015 11:57:39 AM, Mirza wrote:
I don't like this at all. The Islam v. Christianity suffices for most interesting topics, and those specific to the West (which Christianity is not) are very unclear.

- Why do think Christianity isn't part of Western Civilisation?

- Those that are unclear are open for suggestions? Do you have any?
Current Debates:

Islam is not a religion of peace vs. @ Lutonator:
* http://www.debate.org...
Mirza
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4/23/2015 1:56:56 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/23/2015 12:06:19 PM, Yassine wrote:
- Why do think Christianity isn't part of Western Civilisation?
It is part of, but not specific to the West.

- Those that are unclear are open for suggestions? Do you have any?
I have no suggestions; I simply think the various topics are either not specific to the West, or are not enough to constitute this project as an Islam v. West-type.

On a personal note, I might be interested in some of the topics; I am Western/Orthodox, and Muslim as well, so I can take balanced approach to some of the issues. What do you wish to debate on these: Arabic vs. (another language) and Tolerance In Medieval Islam vs. Tolerance In Modern Europe? Is Arabic better, as in more useful, or?
Yassine
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4/23/2015 3:08:25 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/23/2015 1:56:56 PM, Mirza wrote:
It is part of, but not specific to the West.

- It is, mostly.

I have no suggestions; I simply think the various topics are either not specific to the West,

- Which do you think are not?

or are not enough to constitute this project as an Islam v. West-type.

- What do you think will constitute such a project?

On a personal note, I might be interested in some of the topics; I am Western/Orthodox, and Muslim as well, so I can take balanced approach to some of the issues. What do you wish to debate on these: Arabic vs. (another language) and Tolerance In Medieval Islam vs. Tolerance In Modern Europe?

- You're muslim, I don't think any of this apply to you! Islamic Civilisation includes the european world ruled by muslims, particularly: al-Andalus & al-Balkan.

Is Arabic better, as in more useful, or?

- Arabic being a better language overall, yes. But, you're muslim!!! You know Arabic is the language of the Qur'an.
Current Debates:

Islam is not a religion of peace vs. @ Lutonator:
* http://www.debate.org...
Yassine
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4/23/2015 3:09:36 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/23/2015 2:03:04 PM, Mirza wrote:

As for tolerance, I want you to specify what you mean.

- Tolerance as defined in the dictionary, nothing fancy. Again, you're muslim, you represent Islam not the West.
Current Debates:

Islam is not a religion of peace vs. @ Lutonator:
* http://www.debate.org...
kasmic
Posts: 1,302
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4/23/2015 3:30:59 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Women in Islam vs. Women in Christianity would be an interesting comparison.
"Liberalism Defined" http://www.debate.org...
"The Social Contract" http://www.debate.org...
"Intro to IR An Open Discussion" http://www.debate.org...

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My latest article: http://www.sensiblesoapbox.com...
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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4/23/2015 4:12:49 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/23/2015 3:08:25 PM, Yassine wrote:
- You're muslim, I don't think any of this apply to you! Islamic Civilisation includes the european world ruled by muslims, particularly: al-Andalus & al-Balkan.
It is very different to Islamic civilization in general. European Muslims, and I mean the descendants of Christian converts from Middle Ages, such as Bosniaks and Albanians, are in culture and tradition Western and Orthodox, and have Islam as a personal philosophy that describes reality. The difference is that while Islamic societies, namely the Arabic ones, have been shaped by Islam fundamentally, European countries have not to the same degree, although they have been influenced quite a lot.

- Arabic being a better language overall, yes. But, you're muslim!!! You know Arabic is the language of the Qur'an.
Indeed, but I would nevertheless like to know what you mean by the language being better I do think it is one of the most beautiful and expressive languages, but few others can compare. I'll use my own as an example, which I find to be a peculiar language:

"As for the Bosnian language, whom Muhamed Hevaji Uskufi struck a strong foundation, it is interesting to point out the opinion of modern British historian Noel Malcolm on this topic, which says: "As the Bosnian language was the third language of the Ottoman Empire, it is no wonder that a part of the Ottoman literature was written in this language".[134] 18th century Bosniak chronicler Mula Mustafa Ba"eskija, which in his yearbook added a collection of poems in Bosnian language, argued that the Bosnian language is much richer than the Arabic, because there are 45 words for the verb "to go" in Bosnian language. The 17th century Benedictine abbot from Dubrovnik, Mavro Orbin stated in his chronic The Realm of the Slavs (in Italian version Il regno degli Slavi), printed in Pesaro in 1601, that "off all people who speak Slavic language, Bosnians have the most elegant language and they are proud of the fact that they are now only who pays attention to the cleanliness of the Slavic language".[135] The Italian linguist Jacobus Micalia (1601-1654) states in his dictionary "Blagu jezika slovinskoga" (To the treasure of the Slavic language) from 1649 that he wants to include "the most beautiful words" adding that "of all Illyrian languages the Bosnian is the most beautiful" ("Ogn'un dice che la lingua Bosnese sia la piu bella"), and that all Illyrian writers should try to write in that language." [http://self.gutenberg.org...]

If it came to a contest, I could argue in favour of my own.
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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4/23/2015 4:16:11 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/23/2015 3:09:36 PM, Yassine wrote:
- Tolerance as defined in the dictionary, nothing fancy. Again, you're muslim, you represent Islam not the West.
West, as has been pointed out above, is not well-defined. However, I am part of this world, and I do like it (and I mean Europe specifically; I associate myself not with other Western lands); that is not mutually exclusive with being a Muslim and representing Islam as well. One must not give up one for the other in this case - at all.
Yassine
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4/23/2015 4:51:48 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/23/2015 3:30:59 PM, kasmic wrote:
Women in Islam vs. Women in Christianity would be an interesting comparison.

- I don't doubt that. Would you be willing to engage in such a discussion? If so what're the parameters you reckon are relevant to the topic?
Current Debates:

Islam is not a religion of peace vs. @ Lutonator:
* http://www.debate.org...
Yassine
Posts: 2,617
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4/23/2015 5:04:14 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/23/2015 3:52:10 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:

"West" has no agreed-upon definition.

- Western Thought can be described as the heritage of the: Greek, Hellenistic, Roman, Scholastic, Renaissance, Age of Enlightenment, Industrial Revolution & Progressive Eras.

=> What do you think about this description?
Current Debates:

Islam is not a religion of peace vs. @ Lutonator:
* http://www.debate.org...
kasmic
Posts: 1,302
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4/23/2015 5:09:16 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/23/2015 4:51:48 PM, Yassine wrote:
At 4/23/2015 3:30:59 PM, kasmic wrote:
Women in Islam vs. Women in Christianity would be an interesting comparison.

- I don't doubt that. Would you be willing to engage in such a discussion? If so what're the parameters you reckon are relevant to the topic?

I would be very willing. I am open to just about any set up you would like.
"Liberalism Defined" http://www.debate.org...
"The Social Contract" http://www.debate.org...
"Intro to IR An Open Discussion" http://www.debate.org...

Check out my website, the Sensible Soapbox http://www.sensiblesoapbox.com...
My latest article: http://www.sensiblesoapbox.com...
kasmic
Posts: 1,302
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4/23/2015 5:09:16 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/23/2015 4:51:48 PM, Yassine wrote:
At 4/23/2015 3:30:59 PM, kasmic wrote:
Women in Islam vs. Women in Christianity would be an interesting comparison.

- I don't doubt that. Would you be willing to engage in such a discussion? If so what're the parameters you reckon are relevant to the topic?

I would be very willing. I am open to just about any set up you would like.
"Liberalism Defined" http://www.debate.org...
"The Social Contract" http://www.debate.org...
"Intro to IR An Open Discussion" http://www.debate.org...

Check out my website, the Sensible Soapbox http://www.sensiblesoapbox.com...
My latest article: http://www.sensiblesoapbox.com...
Yassine
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4/23/2015 5:22:13 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/23/2015 4:12:49 PM, Mirza wrote:

It is very different to Islamic civilization in general. European Muslims, and I mean the descendants of Christian converts from Middle Ages, such as Bosniaks and Albanians, are in culture and tradition Western and Orthodox, and have Islam as a personal philosophy that describes reality. The difference is that while Islamic societies, namely the Arabic ones, have been shaped by Islam fundamentally, European countries have not to the same degree, although they have been influenced quite a lot.

- I don't disagree. There are three kinds of Islamic Cultures:
1. Arab Culture.
2. Non-Arab Culture replaced entirely by an Arab Culture, namely: Egypt, Syria, Iraq, Mauritania. . .
3. Non-Arab Culture merged with Islamic/Arabic Culture: Persians, Turkish, Spanish, Indian, Berbers, Africans, & yours.

If it came to a contest, I could argue in favour of my own.

- I don't doubt your language deserves the praise it gets & more, as many other languages do as well. Language is the most pure & highest form of culture. But is your support in favour of your own language against Arabic motivated by factual belief or by pride? In other words, do you actually believe, on solid grounds, that the Bosnian language is factually better than Arabic, or you are in favour of it because it's yours?
Current Debates:

Islam is not a religion of peace vs. @ Lutonator:
* http://www.debate.org...
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
Posts: 18,324
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4/23/2015 5:34:05 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/23/2015 5:04:14 PM, Yassine wrote:
At 4/23/2015 3:52:10 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:

"West" has no agreed-upon definition.

- Western Thought can be described as the heritage of the: Greek, Hellenistic, Roman, Scholastic, Renaissance, Age of Enlightenment, Industrial Revolution & Progressive Eras.

=> What do you think about this description?

So, is it based on race? The above definition seems like you are saying white people = west. But the United States is considered the "west" by many journalists/public figures and it is a diverse country with people from different "heritages" and ancestries. The US and Canada are in the "west" though as part of the western hemisphere. And the "heritages" you describe are part of what was once considered the "west" (Europe) before the discovery of the Americas. So you can see where it is ambiguous. Some authors even refer to Australia as the "west" but it is actually in the east. And then there are some who exclude eastern Europe and Russia from the definition of "west" but through your definition, they should be considered "west" because you seem to say white = west which is an odd definition. "West" is not a geographical or cultural entity, nor is it a religion. Islam is a religion. A fair debate would be comparing Islam to another religion of your choice.
Geogeer
Posts: 4,263
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4/23/2015 5:41:25 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/23/2015 11:42:46 AM, Yassine wrote:
- I've long being thinking of doing a Project revolving around Islam vs. West as a general Topic & featuring a series of debates within that Topic. I have a relatively good foundation on the Islamic Tradition & so I hope to create a sort of Clash of Civilisations between Islam & the West which should involve a great deal of exchanging ideas & sharing worldviews. I also hope western members of this site share my enthusiasm about the Project.

== The Project may involve a wide variety of subjects, each with relating topics, such as:

1. Religion: Scripture & Theology.
2. Law, Ethics & Politics.
3. Philosophy.
4. Science.
5. History & Civilisation.

== Examples of Topics:

1. Religion: Scripture & Theology.


> God in Islam vs. (something).

I was going to debate Ajabi on the Trinitarian God vs. Allah before he disappeared...
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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4/23/2015 5:44:51 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/23/2015 5:22:13 PM, Yassine wrote:
- I don't disagree. There are three kinds of Islamic Cultures:
1. Arab Culture.
2. Non-Arab Culture replaced entirely by an Arab Culture, namely: Egypt, Syria, Iraq, Mauritania. . .
3. Non-Arab Culture merged with Islamic/Arabic Culture: Persians, Turkish, Spanish, Indian, Berbers, Africans, & yours.
I don't consider that Islamic culture. If the Islamic influence only extends to personal belief and mosques, then this does not make a people belong to the civilization that is far more influenced by the religion in a social sense.

- I don't doubt your language deserves the praise it gets & more, as many other languages do as well. Language is the most pure & highest form of culture. But is your support in favour of your own language against Arabic motivated by factual belief or by pride? In other words, do you actually believe, on solid grounds, that the Bosnian language is factually better than Arabic, or you are in favour of it because it's yours?
I do not favour it per se; I like both for various reasons, Bosnian for obvious ones, and Arabic because the language plays a core part in my religion. However, as I said I do not consider mine better; I merely don't think Arabic is objectively and necessarily better in all ways. And, when you say "factually," I must again ask you what you mean. It is very unclear what form of measurement you desire to use.
Mirza
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4/23/2015 5:48:48 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/23/2015 5:34:05 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
So, is it based on race? The above definition seems like you are saying white people = west. But the United States is considered the "west" by many journalists/public figures and it is a diverse country with people from different "heritages" and ancestries. The US and Canada are in the "west" though as part of the western hemisphere. And the "heritages" you describe are part of what was once considered the "west" (Europe) before the discovery of the Americas. So you can see where it is ambiguous. Some authors even refer to Australia as the "west" but it is actually in the east. And then there are some who exclude eastern Europe and Russia from the definition of "west" but through your definition, they should be considered "west" because you seem to say white = west which is an odd definition. "West" is not a geographical or cultural entity, nor is it a religion. Islam is a religion. A fair debate would be comparing Islam to another religion of your choice.
I must agree with this. I, personally, find it to be an ambiguous term, and have the opinion that we should not use it in such a broad sense as we do today. I especially do not want Europe and North America to both be called "West;" it is time we made it apparent that we have taken different cultural paths.
Yassine
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4/23/2015 6:27:18 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/23/2015 5:09:16 PM, kasmic wrote:
At 4/23/2015 4:51:48 PM, Yassine wrote:
At 4/23/2015 3:30:59 PM, kasmic wrote:
Women In Islam vs. Women In Christianity would be an interesting comparison.

- I don't doubt that. Would you be willing to engage in such a discussion? If so what're the parameters you reckon are relevant to the topic?

I would be very willing. I am open to just about any set up you would like.

- Alright, let's get to it then. Here are my standard rules:

(+) Resolution: Women In Islam (Pro) vs. Women In Christianity (Con).#

(+) Topic: Comparison of: Perception, Status, & Rights of Women in both religions: Islam & Christianity.*

(+) Terminology: Religion = Scriptures, Practices, Beliefs, Ideologies, Denominations, History, Law, Theology, Spirituality, Philosophy, Thought, Sciences.*

(+) BOP: shared.#

(+) Rules: no forfeit, no disrespect & no bare assertions.#

(+) Rounds: 5 Rounds, 1st Round acceptance + 10,000 characters 2nd to 5th Round = 40,000 characters in total each.#

(+) Structure: Pro => Arguments 2nd-R, Arguments/Rebuttals 3rd-R & 4th-R, Rebuttals/Conclusion 5th-R + Con => Arguments/Rebuttals 2nd-R to 4th-R, Conclusion 5th-R = 3 Arguments/Rebuttals + 1 Conclusion each.#

(+) Sources: only authentic & authoritative sources are accepted ; sources can be cited within the same round or at the end of the debate ; in case they are in a foreign language, a translation should be provided in a google document, at least for the relevant parts.#

(+) Voting: judges voting + full RFD is required + arguments should be weighted in all three aspects of the debate: perception, status & rights of women.*

(+) Judges: primarily atheist or agnostic (considering the nature of the debate), preferably not anti-religious nor anti-Islamic + equal number of muslim/christian judges. My list*:
> Skepsikyima => atheist.
> Zarroette => atheist.
> bsh1 => agnostic.
> FaustianJustice => agnostic.
> Mizra => muslim.
> lannan13 => christian.

- You can propose your own formula if you want, or add to mine: (*) is arguable (#) is not arguable.
Current Debates:

Islam is not a religion of peace vs. @ Lutonator:
* http://www.debate.org...
Yassine
Posts: 2,617
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4/23/2015 6:47:56 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/23/2015 5:34:05 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
At 4/23/2015 5:04:14 PM, Yassine wrote:
At 4/23/2015 3:52:10 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:

"West" has no agreed-upon definition.

- Western Thought can be described as the heritage of the: Greek, Hellenistic, Roman, Scholastic, Renaissance, Age of Enlightenment, Industrial Revolution & Progressive Eras.

=> What do you think about this description?

So, is it based on race?

- Are you serious?! The only category above that could be likened to a race heritage is the Greek Heritage. Hellenistic Heritage is not a race heritage, Roman Heritage is not a race heritage, Scholastic Heritage is not a race heritage, Renaissance Heritage is not a race heritage, Age of Enlightenment Heritage is not a race heritage, Industrial Revolution Heritage is not a race heritage, Progressive Heritage is not a race heritage.
(http://en.wikipedia.org...)

The above definition seems like you are saying white people = west.

- Seriously?! What does white even mean? The Hellenistic & Roman periods included part of Europe, North Africa, Egypt, the Levant, & even Mesopotamia, this is as diversified & non-white as you can get.

But the United States is considered the "west" by many journalists/public figures and it is a diverse country with people from different "heritages" and ancestries.

- Yeah, heard of the Progressive Era? It happened mostly in the US, that's why it's part of the West. Before the Progressive Era, the US's heritage was predominantly european.

The US and Canada are in the "west" though as part of the western hemisphere. And the "heritages" you describe are part of what was once considered the "west" (Europe) before the discovery of the Americas.

- The Industrial Revolution happened in Europe & in America.

So you can see where it is ambiguous.

- Nope, I honestly can't.

Some authors even refer to Australia as the "west" but it is actually in the east.

- Australia's heritage is western obviously, & thus it's part of the West. It's not about a place or a race, it's about a heritage, a culture, a thought, a civilisation.

And then there are some who exclude eastern Europe and Russia from the definition of "west" but through your definition, they should be considered "west" because you seem to say white = west which is an odd definition.

- Russia (& some of Eastern Europe) has western elements (essentially Christendom), but as you said it's generally not part of the western world, as it has its own heritage fundamentally different than that of the West.

"West" is not a geographical or cultural entity, nor is it a religion.

- Duh!

Islam is a religion. A fair debate would be comparing Islam to another religion of your choice.

- Islam is not just a religion, Islam is a Religious, Legal, Political, Theological, Spiritual, Philosophical, Scientific, Cultural, Linguistic, Historical. . . Heritage. Islamic Heritage is indeed analogue to Western Heritage.
Current Debates:

Islam is not a religion of peace vs. @ Lutonator:
* http://www.debate.org...
Yassine
Posts: 2,617
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4/23/2015 6:55:02 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/23/2015 5:44:51 PM, Mirza wrote:
I do not favour it per se; I like both for various reasons, Bosnian for obvious ones, and Arabic because the language plays a core part in my religion. However, as I said I do not consider mine better; I merely don't think Arabic is objectively and necessarily better in all ways. And, when you say "factually," I must again ask you what you mean. It is very unclear what form of measurement you desire to use.

- The measurements by which language is measured:
> Grammar.
> Linguistics.
> Rhetoric.
> Writing.
> Communicating.
> Prose.
> Poetry.
> Elocution.
> Literature.
> Classics.
> Influence.
=> & so on.
Current Debates:

Islam is not a religion of peace vs. @ Lutonator:
* http://www.debate.org...
Yassine
Posts: 2,617
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4/23/2015 6:56:04 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/23/2015 5:41:25 PM, Geogeer wrote:

I was going to debate Ajabi on the Trinitarian God vs. Allah before he disappeared...

- I can do that.
Current Debates:

Islam is not a religion of peace vs. @ Lutonator:
* http://www.debate.org...
Yassine
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4/23/2015 7:16:45 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/23/2015 5:44:51 PM, Mirza wrote:
I don't consider that Islamic culture. If the Islamic influence only extends to personal belief and mosques, then this does not make a people belong to the civilization that is far more influenced by the religion in a social sense.

- Of course, the Ottoman Empire ruled the Balkan for well over 4 centuries, that is some serious islamic civilisation introduced in there. Muslims there have more in common with turkish or even Arab muslims for instance than french christians.

- The Bosnian War had the entire Islamic world aching & crying, thousands of lines of poetry were composed to & thousands of songs were sung & billions of tears were shed to express the pain the muslim community felt for what is essentially part of it. Islam is an Ummah, that's how it works. I've been to over 10 muslim countries around the world, & I know people from most of them ; they are all so different but all so alike.

- I kid you not, my top three favourite songs of all time (with the exception of the religious ones, such as Laysa al-Gharib & al-Burda) all have to do with Bosnia, called: 1. Fi Rubu'i al-Majd, 2. Maasat, 3. Sarajevo. You're part of the Islamic Heritage my friend not the Western Heritage.
Current Debates:

Islam is not a religion of peace vs. @ Lutonator:
* http://www.debate.org...
Yassine
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4/23/2015 7:22:01 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/23/2015 5:48:48 PM, Mirza wrote:
I must agree with this. I, personally, find it to be an ambiguous term, and have the opinion that we should not use it in such a broad sense as we do today. I especially do not want Europe and North America to both be called "West;" it is time we made it apparent that we have taken different cultural paths.

- Western Heritage doesn't entail unified culture, there are so many aspects & cultures within itself (maybe by the thousands) but they all pertain to the same group of Heritage. The same goes for Islamic Heritage, which is even more diversified & expanded.
Current Debates:

Islam is not a religion of peace vs. @ Lutonator:
* http://www.debate.org...
Mirza
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4/23/2015 7:42:24 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/23/2015 7:16:45 PM, Yassine wrote:
- Of course, the Ottoman Empire ruled the Balkan for well over 4 centuries, that is some serious islamic civilisation introduced in there. Muslims there have more in common with turkish or even Arab muslims for instance than french christians.
There is - Islamic philosophy and some traditions have long been established, and I did not contest that. Your assertion that Islamic civilization somehow erased our own foundation (I strongly suspect that is what you are trying to tell), which was largely based on European Christendom, as well as our own (read on the Bosnian Church) religious philosophies and other customs, is wrong. Even the influence Ottomans had on us is largely gone when it comes to the religious connection; we now practice Islam very much on a personal level, and the religious influence that we see on Islamic societies is not present any longer to nearly the same degree as it used to be.

- The Bosnian War had the entire Islamic world aching & crying, thousands of lines of poetry were composed to & thousands of songs were sung & billions of tears were shed to express the pain the muslim community felt for what is essentially part of it. Islam is an Ummah, that's how it works. I've been to over 10 muslim countries around the world, & I know people from most of them ; they are all so different but all so alike.
We are united in Faith; that's not the same as being the one and same civilization. Other than our religion, we have almost nothing to do with most other Muslims, like Christians in Europe do not have much connection with those in India or Africa.

- I kid you not, my top three favourite songs of all time (with the exception of the religious ones, such as Laysa al-Gharib & al-Burda) all have to do with Bosnia, called: 1. Fi Rubu'i al-Majd, 2. Maasat, 3. Sarajevo. You're part of the Islamic Heritage my friend not the Western Heritage.
I mean... Your cold denial of what civilization I am part of is impressive. My country went through a plethora of changes and experienced a multitude of cultural influences, from since it was formed in Medieval times based on its unique cultural identity, through the Ottoman political rule, the Austro-Hungarian imperial touch, two Yugoslavias, and now as an independent state; Islam was just one among the many cultural influences, so your assertion is out of touch with reality. We pride ourselves, at least the Muslims in Bosnia, of having Islam part of us; but we are not part of the large Islamic civilization, similar to how Christians are not part of the same either. We may even deny it exists as it did once before.
Mirza
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4/23/2015 7:46:34 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
As for your portrayal of cultural differences between us and say, France, this is really obvious; many European countries differ strongly with one another. Croatia and France do as well; Denmark and Finland; etc. In general, however, we are more alike with one another than with most other countries in the world. That much is apparent to almost anyone.
Yassine
Posts: 2,617
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4/23/2015 8:18:18 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/23/2015 7:42:24 PM, Mirza wrote:

- You have some strong feelings about this, I can tell! >_<

There is - Islamic philosophy and some traditions have long been established, and I did not contest that. Your assertion that Islamic civilization somehow erased our own foundation (I strongly suspect that is what you are trying to tell)

- I said your identity is type-3, meaning the Balkanian Heritage merged with the Islamic/Arabic Heritage such as the case of Turkey. It's type-2 that had its heritage completely replaced (for instance: Egypt).

which was largely based on European Christendom, as well as our own (read on the Bosnian Church) religious philosophies and other customs, is wrong.

- This is a misunderstanding.

Even the influence Ottomans had on us is largely gone when it comes to the religious connection.

- The Ottoman influence is also an essential part of your Heritage.

we now practice Islam very much on a personal level, and the religious influence that we see on Islamic societies is not present any longer to nearly the same degree as it used to be.

- That's generally the case in most muslim countries, not just yours. That's just part of Globalisation.

We are united in Faith; that's not the same as being the one and same civilization.

- We're not united in faith only!!! What do you think about Malaysia? Indonesia? India? East China? . . . all these have fundamentally different cultures than yours & mine, in an even much serious degree than the difference between ours. Yet, they are still part of the Ummah & part of the Islamic Heritage.

Other than our religion, we have almost nothing to do with most other Muslims, like Christians in Europe do not have much connection with those in India or Africa.

- Not quite, Christianity is not Islam!
1. Christianity doesn't have the notion of Ummah, which is the best & most accurate definition of what is the Islamic Civilisation, & which constitute the primary identity of every muslim.
2. Christianity has different sects which hardly ever interacted with each other! (just think Russia & Europe). Islam has schools of thought, which all have been in constant interaction throughout History.
3. The presence of Christianity in a person's life & the society is insignificant compared to the presence of Islam.
4. Now, christians identify first with their nation & many other things, before they even identify with religion. Muslims identify with Islam first & foremost.
5. Muslims never had borders, even with the many many states & empires they founded, within the Islamic World, a muslim can go freely anywhere. In other words, the Islamic World was in fact one nation, that's not the case of Christianity.
. . .etc.

I mean... Your cold denial of what civilization I am part of is impressive.

- I am not denying anything!

My country went through a plethora of changes and experienced a multitude of cultural influences, from since it was formed in Medieval times based on its unique cultural identity, through the Ottoman political rule, the Austro-Hungarian imperial touch, two Yugoslavias, and now as an independent state;

- True for every single muslim nation.

Islam was just one among the many cultural influences, so your assertion is out of touch with reality.

- Islam has also been one among the many influences on these nations, do they not figure among the Islamic Heritage as well? Take for example Egypt, or Mesopotamia, or the Levant, or Persia, these have had so many shifts for thousands of years to a much higher degree than Bosnia ever had, yet they are still part of the Ummah.

We pride ourselves, at least the Muslims in Bosnia, of having Islam part of us; but we are not part of the large Islamic civilization,

- Maybe converts can say that, not a nation who was literally part of one of the three major Empires of the Islamic Civilisation for well over 4 centuries!

similar to how Christians are not part of the same either. We may even deny it exists as it did once before.

- Muslim nations are part of the Ummah, comparing that to Christendom is absurd!
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Yassine
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4/23/2015 8:20:10 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/23/2015 7:46:34 PM, Mirza wrote:
As for your portrayal of cultural differences between us and say, France, this is really obvious; many European countries differ strongly with one another. Croatia and France do as well; Denmark and Finland; etc. In general, however, we are more alike with one another than with most other countries in the world. That much is apparent to almost anyone.

- Are you closer to the Turkish culture or the French culture?
Current Debates:

Islam is not a religion of peace vs. @ Lutonator:
* http://www.debate.org...