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A Discussion on ELO

bsh1
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5/3/2015 4:54:52 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
INTRO

So, I want to mention 3 things about ELO that have been on my mind lately: the problem of ELO inflation, the value of ELO, and the ethics of noob-sniping. I hope this will spark a fruitful discussion, because these are important issues.

THE PROBLEM OF ELO INFLATION

Recently, I realized that the ELOs on the leaderboard seemed higher than previously. I went back and checked what the rates were in August 2013 (which is when I think I joined) [http://web.archive.org...] and compared those rates to what they are now. Today, the average ELO on the first page of the leaderboard is 5,632.5, whereas before it was 4,955.1. That is a shift of about 677 ELO points. Moreover, today, 19 people on the ELO board have 5,000 or more points, whereas before just 11 people did; that's an extra 8 people. Finally, today, the person at the bottom of the first page has 4,674 ELO, whereas before they had 4,113 ELO, which is a change of 561 points.

This kind of ELO inflation presents a problem for newer members, because it makes it that much more difficult for them to ascend the leaderboard. I remember that it took me many months to get to the first page, and I can imagine that, as time goes by, the period it takes for people to do the same will become even longer. This has several impacts. Firstly, it's unfair to newer members that each generation has a progressively harder time ascending the ELO board. Secondly, it will eventually reach a point where people are dissuaded from even trying to climb to the top of the board; and, let's face it, a lot of great debates on this site are directly or indirectly influenced by a desire to accrue ELO. Thirdly, it incentivizes extreme forms of noob-sniping to gain FREELO (free ELO).

I actually see this as a pretty significant challenge for DDO. Imagine that, if every year or two, an extra 600 points were added to the average ELO of the front page, or an extra 500 points were needed to just get onto the front page. Soon, it would become a pointless effort to even try, unless you were willing to engage in noob-sniping bonanzas.

There are several things we can do to fix ELO inflation. One option is to maintain the ELO cap. I know Mikal has mentioned wanting to expand beyond 9,000 ELO. However, I think having an upward limit on how much ELO people can amass prevents people on the ELO board from expanding too egregiously. Imagine if multiple people had 9,000+ ELOs, for instance. Secondly, the instigator advantage needs to be eliminated or significantly reduced. It contributes to the inflation by adding extra ELO to the instigators' coffers. ELO needs to be more of a zero-sum game, where my gain is directly equivalent to your loss, so that things balance out. But when I can gain more that you lose, that promotes an "ELO gap" and contributes to ELO inflation. Thirdly, users who have been inactive for an extended period of time, say 2 years, need to be removed from the ELO board automatically, in order to make more room for users who are active. I think all three of these ideas could be implemented together to good results.

THE VALUE OF ELO

I know that some people believe ELO is not reflective of debating ability. Perhaps this is true, but I don't think that this makes ELO worthless or without purpose. A recent thread asked who the best debaters were on DDO [http://www.debate.org...] and there were some common names mentioned throughout: mine, Roy, Danielle, Bluesteel, 16K, thett3, Subutai, whiteflame, Zaradi, Tyler, Mikal, YYW, Donald.Keller, Raisor, BlackVoid, and phantom. I am sure I am leaving a few off, but this list is comprehensive enough to make my point. Out of these 16 users, 7 are in the top 10, 12 are on the first page, and all 16 are on the top half of the second page or better. So, all 16 of those users widely recognized as the best debaters on the site are in the top 45 people on the ELO board. 70% of the top 10 ELOs are among those 16 users as well, and I would say that few debaters on the first two pages are not good debaters.

That is really not a bad trackrecord, esp. in a system where perfection is impossible. My point is that while ELO is not totally accurate, it is still a great way to measure debating prowess. The ELO board, in addition to being a good measure of talent, is also useful as an incentive to debate, as a means of recognizing productive or talented community members, and as a convenient way to seed people in tournaments. I just think that dismissing ELO as fluff or as an inherently flawed system does it a grave disservice. It has its utility, and I don't think it is as inaccurate as it is sometimes made out to be.

THE ETHICS OF NOOB-SNIPING

I also briefly wanted to touch on the topic of noob-sniping. I think it is important to, from the get-go, acknowledge that most, if not all, prominent debaters noob-snipe to some extent. But, I think there is a case to be made that some debaters do it to excess. While I am not going to name people, and while I am not going to give numbers describing what "excessive" means (as the saying goes: you know it when you see it), I do not think it is unfair or incorrect to say it is being done with greater frequency than it used to.

Noob-sniping is accepting a debate instigated by a new member with little experience on the site. It is not when a noob accepts a debate instigated by a more established member, because the term implies that the established member sought out a noob to debate for an easy victory.

The rise of excessive noob-sniping is problematic and unethical for several reasons. It means that some people can ascend the ELO board without doing any work. ELO is meant to be a reflection of skill--we can quibble over whether or not it does that successfully, but that is its intent. When people seek out large quantities of easy victories to accrue large amounts of FREELO, they don't earn the ELO they receive. This devalues the ELO system as a whole by making it progressively more susceptible to claims that it is a "joke" or an inaccurate reflection of skill.

Noob-sniping also is unfair to those who do a lot of debates against good opponents, because while they are doing work, they are usually accruing ELO at a slower pace than those who noob-snipe. What I am trying to say, though this may be a bit blunt, is that excessive noob-sniping is amounts to cheating. It is as if one person cheats on their test for an easy A whereas someone else does a lot of studying to earn their A.

Finally, it's unfair to noobs to have people far above their skill level accept their debates. It is like entering a novice in a Varsity event, rather than a JV or amateur event--they're being thrown to the wolves. Being sniped early on may also discourage new users from staying on the site, which is harmful because it may chase away members who could have become great contributors to the DDO community.

I feel, that to preserve the integrity of the system and to ensure fairness, stricter measures should be taken to combat noob-sniping. One possible option is to automatically restrict members with high ELOs from accepting debates instigated by members who have been on the site for only one or two months. If a noob really did want to debate an experienced member, they could still do that by accepting a debate instigated by the more established member, but at least this way people cannot actively seek out open, noob debates for FREELO.

CONCLUSION/TL;DR

I think the ELO system is valuable. But, noob-sniping, which helps people inflate their scores, and ELO inflation, because it ossifies the system, devalue the ELO itself. The possibility of earned, not unearned, upward mobility is key to maintaining the legitimacy of the ELO system. We need to tackle these problems.

Thoughts?
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

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Varrack
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5/3/2015 5:06:44 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I think noob-sniping helps people who think they are better than their current ELO have it go up to boost their reputation, but it's abused too often. People like STALIN got 5k elo from noob-sniping but don't deserve to be higher than good debaters who never noob-snipe, like F-16.
16kadams
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5/3/2015 5:07:10 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Good thing I am not noobsniping as much because meany. But I might spam it because immoral :P
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https://rekonomics.wordpress.com...
"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
bsh1
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5/3/2015 5:08:33 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/3/2015 5:06:44 PM, Varrack wrote:
I think noob-sniping helps people who think they are better than their current ELO

If they think they are better than their current ELO, then they should prove it by having actual debates. Noob-sniping proves nothing. To actually have an ELO that means something, people need to earn it.

but it's abused too often. People like STALIN got 5k elo from noob-sniping but don't deserve to be higher than good debaters who never noob-snipe, like F-16.

Agreed.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

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Open Debate Topics Project: http://www.debate.org...
bsh1
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5/3/2015 5:09:44 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/3/2015 5:07:10 PM, 16kadams wrote:
Good thing I am not noobsniping as much because meany.

You do noob-snipe a lot, though...just sayin'

But I might spam it because immoral :P

Lol
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

Follow the DDOlympics
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Open Debate Topics Project: http://www.debate.org...
16kadams
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5/3/2015 5:10:58 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/3/2015 5:09:44 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 5/3/2015 5:07:10 PM, 16kadams wrote:
Good thing I am not noobsniping as much because meany.

You do noob-snipe a lot, though...just sayin'

Hell yeah I do. Their fault for being bad.


But I might spam it because immoral :P

Lol

P
https://www.youtube.com...
https://rekonomics.wordpress.com...
"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
bsh1
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5/3/2015 5:12:51 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/3/2015 5:10:58 PM, 16kadams wrote:
At 5/3/2015 5:09:44 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 5/3/2015 5:07:10 PM, 16kadams wrote:
Good thing I am not noobsniping as much because meany.

You do noob-snipe a lot, though...just sayin'

Hell yeah I do. Their fault for being bad.

I really hope you don't mean that.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

Follow the DDOlympics
: http://www.debate.org...

Open Debate Topics Project: http://www.debate.org...
16kadams
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5/3/2015 5:14:38 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/3/2015 5:12:51 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 5/3/2015 5:10:58 PM, 16kadams wrote:
At 5/3/2015 5:09:44 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 5/3/2015 5:07:10 PM, 16kadams wrote:
Good thing I am not noobsniping as much because meany.

You do noob-snipe a lot, though...just sayin'

Hell yeah I do. Their fault for being bad.

I really hope you don't mean that.

No. I just stopped playing a video game so I am still in rage mode.

But I think bluesteel noob sniping me when I could barely add 1 + 1 was the best thing that happened to me. It made be become less sh!tty. I was still sh!t but a little less so.
https://www.youtube.com...
https://rekonomics.wordpress.com...
"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
bsh1
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5/3/2015 5:18:02 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/3/2015 5:14:38 PM, 16kadams wrote:
At 5/3/2015 5:12:51 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 5/3/2015 5:10:58 PM, 16kadams wrote:
At 5/3/2015 5:09:44 PM, bsh1 wrote:
You do noob-snipe a lot, though...just sayin'

Hell yeah I do. Their fault for being bad.

I really hope you don't mean that.

No. I just stopped playing a video game so I am still in rage mode.

Okay.

But I think bluesteel noob sniping me when I could barely add 1 + 1 was the best thing that happened to me. It made be become less sh!tty. I was still sh!t but a little less so.

I think I can say the same of thett noob-sniping me. But I can also imagine a case where a noob joins the site, is noob-sniped a bunch of times such that they get crushed a bunch of times in a short space of time, and get discouraged and leave. They could've been a great contributor to the site, but left before they had the chance. In a way, that's almost a subtle form of bullying, where bullying is using superior strength or skill to intimidate others. It's not right.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

Follow the DDOlympics
: http://www.debate.org...

Open Debate Topics Project: http://www.debate.org...
bsh1
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5/3/2015 5:19:57 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Also, I just don't want this to be a thread on noob-sniping. I want to also discuss here the problem of ELO inflation and the value of ELO itself on DDO.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

Follow the DDOlympics
: http://www.debate.org...

Open Debate Topics Project: http://www.debate.org...
16kadams
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5/3/2015 5:23:05 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/3/2015 5:18:02 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 5/3/2015 5:14:38 PM, 16kadams wrote:
At 5/3/2015 5:12:51 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 5/3/2015 5:10:58 PM, 16kadams wrote:
At 5/3/2015 5:09:44 PM, bsh1 wrote:
You do noob-snipe a lot, though...just sayin'

Hell yeah I do. Their fault for being bad.

I really hope you don't mean that.

No. I just stopped playing a video game so I am still in rage mode.

Okay.

But I think bluesteel noob sniping me when I could barely add 1 + 1 was the best thing that happened to me. It made be become less sh!tty. I was still sh!t but a little less so.

I think I can say the same of thett noob-sniping me. But I can also imagine a case where a noob joins the site, is noob-sniped a bunch of times such that they get crushed a bunch of times in a short space of time, and get discouraged and leave. They could've been a great contributor to the site, but left before they had the chance. In a way, that's almost a subtle form of bullying, where bullying is using superior strength or skill to intimidate others. It's not right.

I dunno. I had a 40% win ratio after a few months on the site, and even lower for a while, but I stayed. Look at my debate with bluesteel. I barely knew English (http://www.debate.org...). I was actually kinda bad before I left the site and came back, too. I dunno. Maybe I am a freak.

For most noob snipes they never come back before they even read your argument, haha.
https://www.youtube.com...
https://rekonomics.wordpress.com...
"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
bsh1
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5/3/2015 5:26:42 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/3/2015 5:23:05 PM, 16kadams wrote:
At 5/3/2015 5:18:02 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 5/3/2015 5:14:38 PM, 16kadams wrote:
But I think bluesteel noob sniping me when I could barely add 1 + 1 was the best thing that happened to me. It made be become less sh!tty. I was still sh!t but a little less so.

I think I can say the same of thett noob-sniping me. But I can also imagine a case where a noob joins the site, is noob-sniped a bunch of times such that they get crushed a bunch of times in a short space of time, and get discouraged and leave. They could've been a great contributor to the site, but left before they had the chance. In a way, that's almost a subtle form of bullying, where bullying is using superior strength or skill to intimidate others. It's not right.

I dunno. I had a 40% win ratio after a few months on the site, and even lower for a while, but I stayed. Look at my debate with bluesteel. I barely knew English (http://www.debate.org...). I was actually kinda bad before I left the site and came back, too. I dunno. Maybe I am a freak.

But who is to say our two experiences can be generalized? After all, if a noob did get discouraged and left, they would not be here to tell us about it. I think, logically, it makes sense that noob-sniping is going to turn a lot of people off from the site.

For most noob snipes they never come back before they even read your argument, haha.

That's true. In those cases, my points about FREELO apply.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

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Open Debate Topics Project: http://www.debate.org...
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,248
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5/3/2015 5:32:26 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/3/2015 4:54:52 PM, bsh1 wrote:
A proper ELO system wouldn't reward people who noob-snipe in the first place. Winning against someone with low elo shouldn't add to your elo unless you yourself have low elo.
16kadams
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5/3/2015 5:32:28 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/3/2015 5:26:42 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 5/3/2015 5:23:05 PM, 16kadams wrote:
At 5/3/2015 5:18:02 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 5/3/2015 5:14:38 PM, 16kadams wrote:
But I think bluesteel noob sniping me when I could barely add 1 + 1 was the best thing that happened to me. It made be become less sh!tty. I was still sh!t but a little less so.

I think I can say the same of thett noob-sniping me. But I can also imagine a case where a noob joins the site, is noob-sniped a bunch of times such that they get crushed a bunch of times in a short space of time, and get discouraged and leave. They could've been a great contributor to the site, but left before they had the chance. In a way, that's almost a subtle form of bullying, where bullying is using superior strength or skill to intimidate others. It's not right.

I dunno. I had a 40% win ratio after a few months on the site, and even lower for a while, but I stayed. Look at my debate with bluesteel. I barely knew English (http://www.debate.org...). I was actually kinda bad before I left the site and came back, too. I dunno. Maybe I am a freak.

But who is to say our two experiences can be generalized? After all, if a noob did get discouraged and left, they would not be here to tell us about it. I think, logically, it makes sense that noob-sniping is going to turn a lot of people off from the site.

Yeah but what if arguments are intangible. We could compile user stats that could tell us how many new users leave within the first few hours, and that probably wouldn't be snipe related. Those who leave a few days or weeks... maybe. And even then we have to factor in if they ever debated, with who, etc. I dunno. I bet it happens to some degree but I doubt it is very often.


For most noob snipes they never come back before they even read your argument, haha.

That's true. In those cases, my points about FREELO apply.

Yeah I should have like 3k ELO tbh
https://www.youtube.com...
https://rekonomics.wordpress.com...
"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
bsh1
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5/3/2015 5:37:05 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/3/2015 5:32:26 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 5/3/2015 4:54:52 PM, bsh1 wrote:
A proper ELO system wouldn't reward people who noob-snipe in the first place. Winning against someone with low elo shouldn't add to your elo unless you yourself have low elo.

I think that is one way to fix the problem. I think there are several options that could address the issue, but I do feel like something needs to be done to deal with it.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

Follow the DDOlympics
: http://www.debate.org...

Open Debate Topics Project: http://www.debate.org...
bsh1
Posts: 27,504
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5/3/2015 5:40:36 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/3/2015 5:32:28 PM, 16kadams wrote:
At 5/3/2015 5:26:42 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 5/3/2015 5:23:05 PM, 16kadams wrote:
I dunno. I had a 40% win ratio after a few months on the site, and even lower for a while, but I stayed. Look at my debate with bluesteel. I barely knew English (http://www.debate.org...). I was actually kinda bad before I left the site and came back, too. I dunno. Maybe I am a freak.

But who is to say our two experiences can be generalized? After all, if a noob did get discouraged and left, they would not be here to tell us about it. I think, logically, it makes sense that noob-sniping is going to turn a lot of people off from the site.

Yeah but what if arguments are intangible.

Why does intangibility mean we can't or oughtn't evaluate them. I don't think we always need statistics to confirm what our logic is telling us.

We could compile user stats that could tell us how many new users leave within the first few hours, and that probably wouldn't be snipe related. Those who leave a few days or weeks... maybe.

I think statistics like those would be impossible to compile.

I bet it happens to some degree but I doubt it is very often.

I disagree. I think that it's probably more common than you realize. But, with the dearth of statistics, we will not be able to verify one way or the other. That being said, I think it does happen, and that it is a reason why noob-sniping is bad.

I think it's also worth pointing out that this was one of several reasons I gave against noob-sniping, so let's not get fixated on it.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

Follow the DDOlympics
: http://www.debate.org...

Open Debate Topics Project: http://www.debate.org...
bsh1
Posts: 27,504
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5/3/2015 5:41:29 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
ATTENTION

Just repeating this:

"I just don't want this to be a thread on noob-sniping. I want to also discuss here the problem of ELO inflation and the value of ELO itself on DDO."
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

Follow the DDOlympics
: http://www.debate.org...

Open Debate Topics Project: http://www.debate.org...
16kadams
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5/3/2015 5:43:03 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/3/2015 5:40:36 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 5/3/2015 5:32:28 PM, 16kadams wrote:
At 5/3/2015 5:26:42 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 5/3/2015 5:23:05 PM, 16kadams wrote:
I dunno. I had a 40% win ratio after a few months on the site, and even lower for a while, but I stayed. Look at my debate with bluesteel. I barely knew English (http://www.debate.org...). I was actually kinda bad before I left the site and came back, too. I dunno. Maybe I am a freak.

But who is to say our two experiences can be generalized? After all, if a noob did get discouraged and left, they would not be here to tell us about it. I think, logically, it makes sense that noob-sniping is going to turn a lot of people off from the site.

Yeah but what if arguments are intangible.

Why does intangibility mean we can't or oughtn't evaluate them. I don't think we always need statistics to confirm what our logic is telling us.

We could compile user stats that could tell us how many new users leave within the first few hours, and that probably wouldn't be snipe related. Those who leave a few days or weeks... maybe.

I think statistics like those would be impossible to compile.

I bet it happens to some degree but I doubt it is very often.

I disagree. I think that it's probably more common than you realize. But, with the dearth of statistics, we will not be able to verify one way or the other. That being said, I think it does happen, and that it is a reason why noob-sniping is bad.

I think it's also worth pointing out that this was one of several reasons I gave against noob-sniping, so let's not get fixated on it.

ok fine I don't debate noobs anymore :P
https://www.youtube.com...
https://rekonomics.wordpress.com...
"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
bsh1
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5/3/2015 5:43:32 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/3/2015 5:43:03 PM, 16kadams wrote:
At 5/3/2015 5:40:36 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 5/3/2015 5:32:28 PM, 16kadams wrote:
I bet it happens to some degree but I doubt it is very often.

I disagree. I think that it's probably more common than you realize. But, with the dearth of statistics, we will not be able to verify one way or the other. That being said, I think it does happen, and that it is a reason why noob-sniping is bad.

I think it's also worth pointing out that this was one of several reasons I gave against noob-sniping, so let's not get fixated on it.

ok fine I don't debate noobs anymore :P

Lol...thanks.
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FourTrouble
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5/3/2015 5:43:45 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I agree it's tough to gain Elo unless you're noob-sniping, and that's a large part of why I stopped trying to gain Elo. I remember when I first joined I actually cared about trying to win all my debates, and my record was better then even though voting sucked way worse, but then I stopped caring when I realized how hard it would be to get up the ranks doing serious debates (especially since back-and-forth against the top debaters, so raising Elo was really slow). And if I feel this way, I can only imagine what folks who just joined the site feel like, since I've had 3 years to slowly get 4000 Elo... So I totally agree something should be done to help make the Elo board something that newer members can actually move up in quickly, based on their debating ability.

I think one thing is changing how much Elo you gain from noob-sniping. If you have 4000 Elo and debate a noob with 2000 Elo, you should only get 1 Elo, not 20 Elo, and the noob should only lose 1 Elo. Or if it's reversed, the lower Elo guy should gain like 50 if he beats someone double his Elo, and the guy double his Elo should lose 50. For some reason the system's designed so that I could debate a noob and gain 20 Elo, and that's what promotes noob-sniping. I think that's the biggest thing that could help new members gain Elo quicker, and it's also a good way to keep players from noob-sniping, since it makes the risk of losing higher while taking away the benefits.
dylancatlow
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5/3/2015 5:45:04 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/3/2015 5:37:05 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 5/3/2015 5:32:26 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 5/3/2015 4:54:52 PM, bsh1 wrote:
A proper ELO system wouldn't reward people who noob-snipe in the first place. Winning against someone with low elo shouldn't add to your elo unless you yourself have low elo.

I think that is one way to fix the problem. I think there are several options that could address the issue, but I do feel like something needs to be done to deal with it.

Also, I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing when an expert debater takes on a noob. It's a good way for them to learn tactics and to see that DDO is a serious platform (usually).
bsh1
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5/3/2015 5:48:42 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/3/2015 5:43:45 PM, FourTrouble wrote:
I agree it's tough to gain Elo unless you're noob-sniping, and that's a large part of why I stopped trying to gain Elo. I remember when I first joined I actually cared about trying to win all my debates, and my record was better then even though voting sucked way worse, but then I stopped caring when I realized how hard it would be to get up the ranks doing serious debates (especially since back-and-forth against the top debaters, so raising Elo was really slow). And if I feel this way, I can only imagine what folks who just joined the site feel like, since I've had 3 years to slowly get 4000 Elo... So I totally agree something should be done to help make the Elo board something that newer members can actually move up in quickly, based on their debating ability.

Thanks. Yeah, I almost got discouraged myself...And that is why I started occasionally noob-sniping. I wanted to give myself the FREELO necessary to even attempt to climb the leaderboard. I think that a system that forces you to do that just to have some upward mobility is a system that is flawed.

I think one thing is changing how much Elo you gain from noob-sniping. If you have 4000 Elo and debate a noob with 2000 Elo, you should only get 1 Elo, not 20 Elo, and the noob should only lose 1 Elo. Or if it's reversed, the lower Elo guy should gain like 50 if he beats someone double his Elo, and the guy double his Elo should lose 50. For some reason the system's designed so that I could debate a noob and gain 20 Elo, and that's what promotes noob-sniping. I think that's the biggest thing that could help new members gain Elo quicker, and it's also a good way to keep players from noob-sniping, since it makes the risk of losing higher while taking away the benefits.

I agree with this.
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FourTrouble
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5/3/2015 5:50:14 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/3/2015 5:41:29 PM, bsh1 wrote:
"I just don't want this to be a thread on noob-sniping. I want to also discuss here the problem of ELO inflation and the value of ELO itself on DDO."

I think they're related though. If folks never noob-sniped, and if you didn't gain any Elo from noob-sniping, there'd be less Elo inflation.

As for the value of Elo itself, it's a rough indicator of debating skill. But as others have pointed out, tons of good debaters don't have a high Elo, with F-16 being an obvious example. So I dunno. It has value for locating some good debaters; no one disputes the skill of folks like bluesteel, Mikal, Danielle, yourself, a few others on the front page, but there's also some debaters on the front page that I don't think are actually that good. So it's helpful but not one of those 100% things.
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5/3/2015 5:50:49 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/3/2015 5:45:04 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 5/3/2015 5:37:05 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 5/3/2015 5:32:26 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 5/3/2015 4:54:52 PM, bsh1 wrote:
A proper ELO system wouldn't reward people who noob-snipe in the first place. Winning against someone with low elo shouldn't add to your elo unless you yourself have low elo.

I think that is one way to fix the problem. I think there are several options that could address the issue, but I do feel like something needs to be done to deal with it.

Also, I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing when an expert debater takes on a noob. It's a good way for them to learn tactics and to see that DDO is a serious platform (usually).

Sure, I don't want to 100% rule out noobs and experienced debaters debating each other, but I do want to make it less frequent, and on terms that are less unfair. I think it's also possible to learn tactics and see that DDO is a serious platform just from seeing other debates, so I disagree noob-sniping is necessary for that.

I think it's subtle, but if noob-sniping was less about sniping and more about educating, things would be fine.
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bsh1
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5/3/2015 5:52:13 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/3/2015 5:50:14 PM, FourTrouble wrote:
At 5/3/2015 5:41:29 PM, bsh1 wrote:
"I just don't want this to be a thread on noob-sniping. I want to also discuss here the problem of ELO inflation and the value of ELO itself on DDO."

I think they're related though. If folks never noob-sniped, and if you didn't gain any Elo from noob-sniping, there'd be less Elo inflation.

Oh, I 100% agree they are closely related, but I do think they are distinct, and I want to make sure that all those points are given some attention.

As for the value of Elo itself, it's a rough indicator of debating skill. But as others have pointed out, tons of good debaters don't have a high Elo, with F-16 being an obvious example. So I dunno. It has value for locating some good debaters; no one disputes the skill of folks like bluesteel, Mikal, Danielle, yourself, a few others on the front page, but there's also some debaters on the front page that I don't think are actually that good. So it's helpful but not one of those 100% things.

Sure. It's not perfect, but I don't think it is a bad system.
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dylancatlow
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5/3/2015 6:02:28 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/3/2015 5:50:49 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 5/3/2015 5:45:04 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
I think it's also possible to learn tactics and see that DDO is a serious platform just from seeing other debates, so I disagree noob-sniping is necessary for that.


I don't think it's necessary for it either. But when someone first joins DDO, they typically begin by doing a few debates, not reading other people's debates. So it's their first impression of DDO.
kasmic
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5/3/2015 6:05:44 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I'm surprised any cares about Eli, let alone takes it seriously.
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kasmic
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5/3/2015 6:06:15 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/3/2015 6:05:44 PM, kasmic wrote:
I'm surprised any cares about Eli, let alone takes it seriously.

ELO...
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dylancatlow
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5/3/2015 6:11:03 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/3/2015 6:05:44 PM, kasmic wrote:
I'm surprised any cares about Eli, let alone takes it seriously.

What's your problem with Eli, bitch?
SeventhProfessor
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5/3/2015 6:13:58 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/3/2015 6:05:44 PM, kasmic wrote:
I'm surprised any cares about Eli, let alone takes it seriously.

What the hell, man? Sure, Eli can be a little annoying at times, but that doesn't excuse saying stuff like that about her.
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