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ELO Petition

bsh1
Posts: 27,504
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5/4/2015 2:31:31 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
INTRO

Given the discussion on my recent thread about ELO reforms and problems [http://www.debate.org...] I would like to start a petition to implement some of these ideas. I've separated the ideas so that you can sign up for just what you support, and the rationales for each of the ideas are also on the first page of the thread I linked.

This is not a thread for discussion; if you want to discuss, please use the linked thread. I would like to keep this just for the petition. Also, obviously, these are more of statements of principles. The exact details of any policy are up for debate and are yet to be determined/proposed, but if you agree with the general thrust of these points, please add your name where you agree. Thank you!

PETITION

I. Maintain the ELO Cap. Having an upward limit on how much ELO people can amass prevents egregious forms of ELO Inflation which harm new users' ability to progress on the leaderboards.

1. bsh1
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.

II. Eliminate or Significantly Reduce the Instigator Advantage. ELO needs to be more of a zero-sum game, where my gain is directly equivalent to your loss, so that things balance out. When I can gain more that you lose, that promotes an unacceptable "ELO gap" and contributes to ELO inflation.

1. bsh1
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.

III. Remove People who have been Inactive for 2+ Years from the Leaderboard. Users who have been gone for such extended periods of time are no longer members of the community, and the ELO boards are meant to reflect the community. Moreover, by removing these users, more space is freed up on the leaderboards for deserving, active users.

1. bsh1
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.

IV. Reduce the Impact of FREELO (Free ELO). When people with high ELOs beat people who have only been on the site a couple of months, the higher-ELO member should earn significantly less, if not zero, ELO. This reduces the motivation for the kind of excessive noob-sniping that often occurs on the site, but still allows noobs and experienced members to debate if they want to. Making FREELO less of an issue will also increase the accuracy and legitimacy of the ELO system itself.

1. bsh1
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

Follow the DDOlympics
: http://www.debate.org...

Open Debate Topics Project: http://www.debate.org...
Mikal
Posts: 11,270
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5/4/2015 5:24:54 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/4/2015 2:31:31 PM, bsh1 wrote:
INTRO

Given the discussion on my recent thread about ELO reforms and problems [http://www.debate.org...] I would like to start a petition to implement some of these ideas. I've separated the ideas so that you can sign up for just what you support, and the rationales for each of the ideas are also on the first page of the thread I linked.

This is not a thread for discussion; if you want to discuss, please use the linked thread. I would like to keep this just for the petition. Also, obviously, these are more of statements of principles. The exact details of any policy are up for debate and are yet to be determined/proposed, but if you agree with the general thrust of these points, please add your name where you agree. Thank you!

PETITION

I. Maintain the ELO Cap. Having an upward limit on how much ELO people can amass prevents egregious forms of ELO Inflation which harm new users' ability to progress on the leaderboards.

1. bsh1
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.

II. Eliminate or Significantly Reduce the Instigator Advantage. ELO needs to be more of a zero-sum game, where my gain is directly equivalent to your loss, so that things balance out. When I can gain more that you lose, that promotes an unacceptable "ELO gap" and contributes to ELO inflation.

1. bsh1
2. Mikal
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.

III. Remove People who have been Inactive for 2+ Years from the Leaderboard. Users who have been gone for such extended periods of time are no longer members of the community, and the ELO boards are meant to reflect the community. Moreover, by removing these users, more space is freed up on the leaderboards for deserving, active users.

1. bsh1
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.

IV. Reduce the Impact of FREELO (Free ELO). When people with high ELOs beat people who have only been on the site a couple of months, the higher-ELO member should earn significantly less, if not zero, ELO. This reduces the motivation for the kind of excessive noob-sniping that often occurs on the site, but still allows noobs and experienced members to debate if they want to. Making FREELO less of an issue will also increase the accuracy and legitimacy of the ELO system itself.

1. bsh1
2. Mikal
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.

Increase The Elo Cap
1. Mikal
bsh1
Posts: 27,504
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5/4/2015 5:25:05 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/4/2015 5:22:55 PM, Mikal wrote:
Break the Elo Cap

1. Mikal

Can you not derail the thread? Thanks.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

Follow the DDOlympics
: http://www.debate.org...

Open Debate Topics Project: http://www.debate.org...
Mikal
Posts: 11,270
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5/4/2015 5:25:34 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/4/2015 5:25:05 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 5/4/2015 5:22:55 PM, Mikal wrote:
Break the Elo Cap

1. Mikal

Can you not derail the thread? Thanks.

that's not derailing it. It's a petition to adjust elo. I'm in favor of breaking the cap
bsh1
Posts: 27,504
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5/4/2015 5:26:22 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/4/2015 5:25:34 PM, Mikal wrote:
At 5/4/2015 5:25:05 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 5/4/2015 5:22:55 PM, Mikal wrote:
Break the Elo Cap

1. Mikal

Can you not derail the thread? Thanks.

that's not derailing it. It's a petition to adjust elo. I'm in favor of breaking the cap

Mikal, GTFO. Start your own petition if you want, but not in my thread.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

Follow the DDOlympics
: http://www.debate.org...

Open Debate Topics Project: http://www.debate.org...
Mikal
Posts: 11,270
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5/4/2015 5:27:56 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/4/2015 5:26:22 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 5/4/2015 5:25:34 PM, Mikal wrote:
At 5/4/2015 5:25:05 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 5/4/2015 5:22:55 PM, Mikal wrote:
Break the Elo Cap

1. Mikal

Can you not derail the thread? Thanks.

that's not derailing it. It's a petition to adjust elo. I'm in favor of breaking the cap

Mikal, GTFO. Start your own petition if you want, but not in my thread.

Is the point of this not to adjust the system. What is wrong with posting an idea relative to the topic. I dare you to prove this is derailing a thread, because its entirely relative to the topic
bsh1
Posts: 27,504
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5/4/2015 5:29:41 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/4/2015 5:27:56 PM, Mikal wrote:
At 5/4/2015 5:26:22 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 5/4/2015 5:25:34 PM, Mikal wrote:
At 5/4/2015 5:25:05 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 5/4/2015 5:22:55 PM, Mikal wrote:
Break the Elo Cap

1. Mikal

Can you not derail the thread? Thanks.

that's not derailing it. It's a petition to adjust elo. I'm in favor of breaking the cap

Mikal, GTFO. Start your own petition if you want, but not in my thread.

Is the point of this not to adjust the system. What is wrong with posting an idea relative to the topic. I dare you to prove this is derailing a thread, because its entirely relative to the topic

The topic of the thread was my petition and asking people to sign it. The thread about ELO reform is the other thread I created. And, would you please stop posting here? Even if it's not derailing (and it is, because I specifically asked people not to post unless they're signing the petition I made), then just stop posting because you're fvcking annoying.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

Follow the DDOlympics
: http://www.debate.org...

Open Debate Topics Project: http://www.debate.org...
Mikal
Posts: 11,270
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5/4/2015 5:30:31 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/4/2015 5:29:41 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 5/4/2015 5:27:56 PM, Mikal wrote:
At 5/4/2015 5:26:22 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 5/4/2015 5:25:34 PM, Mikal wrote:
At 5/4/2015 5:25:05 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 5/4/2015 5:22:55 PM, Mikal wrote:
Break the Elo Cap

1. Mikal

Can you not derail the thread? Thanks.

that's not derailing it. It's a petition to adjust elo. I'm in favor of breaking the cap

Mikal, GTFO. Start your own petition if you want, but not in my thread.

Is the point of this not to adjust the system. What is wrong with posting an idea relative to the topic. I dare you to prove this is derailing a thread, because its entirely relative to the topic

The topic of the thread was my petition and asking people to sign it. The thread about ELO reform is the other thread I created. And, would you please stop posting here? Even if it's not derailing (and it is, because I specifically asked people not to post unless they're signing the petition I made), then just stop posting because you're fvcking annoying.

QQ

I singed two and added a category, cry me a river
bsh1
Posts: 27,504
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5/4/2015 5:31:09 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/4/2015 5:30:31 PM, Mikal wrote:
At 5/4/2015 5:29:41 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 5/4/2015 5:27:56 PM, Mikal wrote:
At 5/4/2015 5:26:22 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 5/4/2015 5:25:34 PM, Mikal wrote:
At 5/4/2015 5:25:05 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 5/4/2015 5:22:55 PM, Mikal wrote:
Break the Elo Cap

1. Mikal

Can you not derail the thread? Thanks.

that's not derailing it. It's a petition to adjust elo. I'm in favor of breaking the cap

Mikal, GTFO. Start your own petition if you want, but not in my thread.

Is the point of this not to adjust the system. What is wrong with posting an idea relative to the topic. I dare you to prove this is derailing a thread, because its entirely relative to the topic

The topic of the thread was my petition and asking people to sign it. The thread about ELO reform is the other thread I created. And, would you please stop posting here? Even if it's not derailing (and it is, because I specifically asked people not to post unless they're signing the petition I made), then just stop posting because you're fvcking annoying.

QQ

I singed two and added a category, cry me a river

Good. Then you have no further need to post here.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

Follow the DDOlympics
: http://www.debate.org...

Open Debate Topics Project: http://www.debate.org...
Mikal
Posts: 11,270
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5/4/2015 5:31:34 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/4/2015 5:31:09 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 5/4/2015 5:30:31 PM, Mikal wrote:
At 5/4/2015 5:29:41 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 5/4/2015 5:27:56 PM, Mikal wrote:
At 5/4/2015 5:26:22 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 5/4/2015 5:25:34 PM, Mikal wrote:
At 5/4/2015 5:25:05 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 5/4/2015 5:22:55 PM, Mikal wrote:
Break the Elo Cap

1. Mikal

Can you not derail the thread? Thanks.

that's not derailing it. It's a petition to adjust elo. I'm in favor of breaking the cap

Mikal, GTFO. Start your own petition if you want, but not in my thread.

Is the point of this not to adjust the system. What is wrong with posting an idea relative to the topic. I dare you to prove this is derailing a thread, because its entirely relative to the topic

The topic of the thread was my petition and asking people to sign it. The thread about ELO reform is the other thread I created. And, would you please stop posting here? Even if it's not derailing (and it is, because I specifically asked people not to post unless they're signing the petition I made), then just stop posting because you're fvcking annoying.

QQ

I singed two and added a category, cry me a river

Good. Then you have no further need to post here.

stop responding to me and I won't
bsh1
Posts: 27,504
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5/4/2015 5:32:30 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
INTRO

Given the discussion on my recent thread about ELO reforms and problems [http://www.debate.org......] I would like to start a petition to implement some of these ideas. I've separated the ideas so that you can sign up for just what you support, and the rationales for each of the ideas are also on the first page of the thread I linked.

This is not a thread for discussion; if you want to discuss, please use the linked thread. I would like to keep this just for the petition. Also, obviously, these are more of statements of principles. The exact details of any policy are up for debate and are yet to be determined/proposed, but if you agree with the general thrust of these points, please add your name where you agree. Thank you!

PETITION

I. Maintain the ELO Cap. Having an upward limit on how much ELO people can amass prevents egregious forms of ELO Inflation which harm new users' ability to progress on the leaderboards.

1. bsh1
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.

II. Eliminate or Significantly Reduce the Instigator Advantage. ELO needs to be more of a zero-sum game, where my gain is directly equivalent to your loss, so that things balance out. When I can gain more that you lose, that promotes an unacceptable "ELO gap" and contributes to ELO inflation.

1. bsh1
2. Mikal
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.

III. Remove People who have been Inactive for 2+ Years from the Leaderboard. Users who have been gone for such extended periods of time are no longer members of the community, and the ELO boards are meant to reflect the community. Moreover, by removing these users, more space is freed up on the leaderboards for deserving, active users.

1. bsh1
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.

IV. Reduce the Impact of FREELO (Free ELO). When people with high ELOs beat people who have only been on the site a couple of months, the higher-ELO member should earn significantly less, if not zero, ELO. This reduces the motivation for the kind of excessive noob-sniping that often occurs on the site, but still allows noobs and experienced members to debate if they want to. Making FREELO less of an issue will also increase the accuracy and legitimacy of the ELO system itself.

1. bsh1
2. Mikal
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

Follow the DDOlympics
: http://www.debate.org...

Open Debate Topics Project: http://www.debate.org...
ShabShoral
Posts: 3,236
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5/4/2015 5:46:26 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
INTRO

Given the discussion on my recent thread about ELO reforms and problems [http://www.debate.org.........] I would like to start a petition to implement some of these ideas. I've separated the ideas so that you can sign up for just what you support, and the rationales for each of the ideas are also on the first page of the thread I linked.

This is not a thread for discussion; if you want to discuss, please use the linked thread. I would like to keep this just for the petition. Also, obviously, these are more of statements of principles. The exact details of any policy are up for debate and are yet to be determined/proposed, but if you agree with the general thrust of these points, please add your name where you agree. Thank you!

PETITION

I. Maintain the ELO Cap. Having an upward limit on how much ELO people can amass prevents egregious forms of ELO Inflation which harm new users' ability to progress on the leaderboards.

1. bsh1
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.

II. Eliminate or Significantly Reduce the Instigator Advantage. ELO needs to be more of a zero-sum game, where my gain is directly equivalent to your loss, so that things balance out. When I can gain more that you lose, that promotes an unacceptable "ELO gap" and contributes to ELO inflation.

1. bsh1
2. Mikal
3. ShabShoral
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.

III. Remove People who have been Inactive for 2+ Years from the Leaderboard. Users who have been gone for such extended periods of time are no longer members of the community, and the ELO boards are meant to reflect the community. Moreover, by removing these users, more space is freed up on the leaderboards for deserving, active users.

1. bsh1
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.

IV. Reduce the Impact of FREELO (Free ELO). When people with high ELOs beat people who have only been on the site a couple of months, the higher-ELO member should earn significantly less, if not zero, ELO. This reduces the motivation for the kind of excessive noob-sniping that often occurs on the site, but still allows noobs and experienced members to debate if they want to. Making FREELO less of an issue will also increase the accuracy and legitimacy of the ELO system itself.

1. bsh1
2. Mikal
3. ShabShoral
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.
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bluesteel
Posts: 12,301
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5/4/2015 5:47:29 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/4/2015 2:31:31 PM, bsh1 wrote:


I'm on board with eliminating the instigator advantage/contender penalty. Or significantly revising it so that it also scales with Elo differential.

I'm against removing inactives from the leaderboard.

Something proposed on chess leaderboards for the FREELO proposal is to instead just protect noobs, so that only noobs can challenge them for a specified period of time.
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)
lannan13
Posts: 23,095
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5/4/2015 5:48:28 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/4/2015 5:46:26 PM, ShabShoral wrote:
INTRO

Given the discussion on my recent thread about ELO reforms and problems [http://www.debate.org.........] I would like to start a petition to implement some of these ideas. I've separated the ideas so that you can sign up for just what you support, and the rationales for each of the ideas are also on the first page of the thread I linked.

This is not a thread for discussion; if you want to discuss, please use the linked thread. I would like to keep this just for the petition. Also, obviously, these are more of statements of principles. The exact details of any policy are up for debate and are yet to be determined/proposed, but if you agree with the general thrust of these points, please add your name where you agree. Thank you!

PETITION

I. Maintain the ELO Cap. Having an upward limit on how much ELO people can amass prevents egregious forms of ELO Inflation which harm new users' ability to progress on the leaderboards.

1. bsh1
2. Lannan13
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.

II. Eliminate or Significantly Reduce the Instigator Advantage. ELO needs to be more of a zero-sum game, where my gain is directly equivalent to your loss, so that things balance out. When I can gain more that you lose, that promotes an unacceptable "ELO gap" and contributes to ELO inflation.

1. bsh1
2. Mikal
3. ShabShoral
4. lannan13
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.

III. Remove People who have been Inactive for 2+ Years from the Leaderboard. Users who have been gone for such extended periods of time are no longer members of the community, and the ELO boards are meant to reflect the community. Moreover, by removing these users, more space is freed up on the leaderboards for deserving, active users.

1. bsh1
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.

IV. Reduce the Impact of FREELO (Free ELO). When people with high ELOs beat people who have only been on the site a couple of months, the higher-ELO member should earn significantly less, if not zero, ELO. This reduces the motivation for the kind of excessive noob-sniping that often occurs on the site, but still allows noobs and experienced members to debate if they want to. Making FREELO less of an issue will also increase the accuracy and legitimacy of the ELO system itself.

1. bsh1
2. Mikal
3. ShabShoral
4. Lannan13
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.
-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-Lannan13'S SIGNATURE-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-

If the sky's the limit then why do we have footprints on the Moon? I'm shooting my aspirations for the stars.

"If you are going through hell, keep going." "Sir Winston Churchill

"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." "Eleanor Roosevelt

Topics I want to debate. (http://tinyurl.com...)
-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~
lannan13
Posts: 23,095
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5/4/2015 5:48:55 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/4/2015 2:31:31 PM, bsh1 wrote:
INTRO

Given the discussion on my recent thread about ELO reforms and problems [http://www.debate.org...] I would like to start a petition to implement some of these ideas. I've separated the ideas so that you can sign up for just what you support, and the rationales for each of the ideas are also on the first page of the thread I linked.

This is not a thread for discussion; if you want to discuss, please use the linked thread. I would like to keep this just for the petition. Also, obviously, these are more of statements of principles. The exact details of any policy are up for debate and are yet to be determined/proposed, but if you agree with the general thrust of these points, please add your name where you agree. Thank you!

PETITION

I. Maintain the ELO Cap. Having an upward limit on how much ELO people can amass prevents egregious forms of ELO Inflation which harm new users' ability to progress on the leaderboards.

1. bsh1
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.

II. Eliminate or Significantly Reduce the Instigator Advantage. ELO needs to be more of a zero-sum game, where my gain is directly equivalent to your loss, so that things balance out. When I can gain more that you lose, that promotes an unacceptable "ELO gap" and contributes to ELO inflation.

1. bsh1
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.

III. Remove People who have been Inactive for 2+ Years from the Leaderboard. Users who have been gone for such extended periods of time are no longer members of the community, and the ELO boards are meant to reflect the community. Moreover, by removing these users, more space is freed up on the leaderboards for deserving, active users.

This only pertains to the ELO board right?
-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-Lannan13'S SIGNATURE-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-

If the sky's the limit then why do we have footprints on the Moon? I'm shooting my aspirations for the stars.

"If you are going through hell, keep going." "Sir Winston Churchill

"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." "Eleanor Roosevelt

Topics I want to debate. (http://tinyurl.com...)
-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~
bsh1
Posts: 27,504
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5/4/2015 5:50:16 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/4/2015 5:47:29 PM, bluesteel wrote:
At 5/4/2015 2:31:31 PM, bsh1 wrote:


I'm on board with eliminating the instigator advantage/contender penalty. Or significantly revising it so that it also scales with Elo differential.

I'm against removing inactives from the leaderboard.

Something proposed on chess leaderboards for the FREELO proposal is to instead just protect noobs, so that only noobs can challenge them for a specified period of time.

That's what I suggested in the OP of my earlier thread, but it met a lot of backlash.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

Follow the DDOlympics
: http://www.debate.org...

Open Debate Topics Project: http://www.debate.org...
bsh1
Posts: 27,504
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5/4/2015 5:50:59 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/4/2015 5:48:55 PM, lannan13 wrote:
At 5/4/2015 2:31:31 PM, bsh1 wrote:
III. Remove People who have been Inactive for 2+ Years from the Leaderboard. Users who have been gone for such extended periods of time are no longer members of the community, and the ELO boards are meant to reflect the community. Moreover, by removing these users, more space is freed up on the leaderboards for deserving, active users.

This only pertains to the ELO board right?

I actually support it for all leaderboards, but, in this case, it's just for ELO.
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"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

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bluesteel
Posts: 12,301
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5/4/2015 5:55:40 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/4/2015 5:50:16 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 5/4/2015 5:47:29 PM, bluesteel wrote:
At 5/4/2015 2:31:31 PM, bsh1 wrote:


I'm on board with eliminating the instigator advantage/contender penalty. Or significantly revising it so that it also scales with Elo differential.

I'm against removing inactives from the leaderboard.

Something proposed on chess leaderboards for the FREELO proposal is to instead just protect noobs, so that only noobs can challenge them for a specified period of time.

That's what I suggested in the OP of my earlier thread, but it met a lot of backlash.

Just protect them if they instigate for like 1 month. That doesn't seem that controversial to me.

It may be for the best though because it requires more work from Juggle than the other proposals.
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)
bsh1
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5/4/2015 5:59:20 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/4/2015 5:55:40 PM, bluesteel wrote:
At 5/4/2015 5:50:16 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 5/4/2015 5:47:29 PM, bluesteel wrote:
At 5/4/2015 2:31:31 PM, bsh1 wrote:


I'm on board with eliminating the instigator advantage/contender penalty. Or significantly revising it so that it also scales with Elo differential.

I'm against removing inactives from the leaderboard.

Something proposed on chess leaderboards for the FREELO proposal is to instead just protect noobs, so that only noobs can challenge them for a specified period of time.

That's what I suggested in the OP of my earlier thread, but it met a lot of backlash.

Just protect them if they instigate for like 1 month. That doesn't seem that controversial to me.

That's what I suggested--make it impossible for noobs to be sniped for a month (they can join debates that are instigated by experienced members, but not vice versa). Thett really objected, though.

It may be for the best though because it requires more work from Juggle than the other proposals.

Okay.
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I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

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bsh1
Posts: 27,504
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5/4/2015 6:00:53 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
PETITION

I. Maintain the ELO Cap. Having an upward limit on how much ELO people can amass prevents egregious forms of ELO Inflation which harm new users' ability to progress on the leaderboards.

1. bsh1
2. Lannan13
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.

II. Eliminate or Significantly Reduce the Instigator Advantage. ELO needs to be more of a zero-sum game, where my gain is directly equivalent to your loss, so that things balance out. When I can gain more that you lose, that promotes an unacceptable "ELO gap" and contributes to ELO inflation.

1. bsh1
2. Mikal
3. ShabShoral
4. lannan13
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.

III. Remove People who have been Inactive for 2+ Years from the Leaderboard. Users who have been gone for such extended periods of time are no longer members of the community, and the ELO boards are meant to reflect the community. Moreover, by removing these users, more space is freed up on the leaderboards for deserving, active users.

1. bsh1
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.

IV. Reduce the Impact of FREELO (Free ELO). When people with high ELOs beat people who have only been on the site a couple of months, the higher-ELO member should earn significantly less, if not zero, ELO. This reduces the motivation for the kind of excessive noob-sniping that often occurs on the site, but still allows noobs and experienced members to debate if they want to. Making FREELO less of an issue will also increase the accuracy and legitimacy of the ELO system itself.

1. bsh1
2. Mikal
3. ShabShoral
4. Lannan13
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

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: http://www.debate.org...

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1harderthanyouthink
Posts: 13,102
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5/4/2015 6:16:00 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
/in for all
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

-Syd Barrett

DDO Risk King
9spaceking
Posts: 4,213
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5/4/2015 6:19:33 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/4/2015 6:00:53 PM, bsh1 wrote:
PETITION

I. Maintain the ELO Cap. Having an upward limit on how much ELO people can amass prevents egregious forms of ELO Inflation which harm new users' ability to progress on the leaderboards.

1. bsh1
2. Lannan13
3. 9spaceking
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.

II. Eliminate or Significantly Reduce the Instigator Advantage. ELO needs to be more of a zero-sum game, where my gain is directly equivalent to your loss, so that things balance out. When I can gain more that you lose, that promotes an unacceptable "ELO gap" and contributes to ELO inflation.

1. bsh1
2. Mikal
3. ShabShoral
4. lannan13
5.9spaceking
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.

III. Remove People who have been Inactive for 2+ Years from the Leaderboard. Users who have been gone for such extended periods of time are no longer members of the community, and the ELO boards are meant to reflect the community. Moreover, by removing these users, more space is freed up on the leaderboards for deserving, active users.

1. bsh1
2.9spaceking
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.

IV. Reduce the Impact of FREELO (Free ELO). When people with high ELOs beat people who have only been on the site a couple of months, the higher-ELO member should earn significantly less, if not zero, ELO. This reduces the motivation for the kind of excessive noob-sniping that often occurs on the site, but still allows noobs and experienced members to debate if they want to. Making FREELO less of an issue will also increase the accuracy and legitimacy of the ELO system itself.

1. bsh1
2. Mikal
3. ShabShoral
4. Lannan13
5.9spaceking
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.
Equestrian election
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This House would impose democracy
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Reign of Terror is unjustified
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Raise min. wage to $10.10
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bsh1
Posts: 27,504
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5/4/2015 6:21:48 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
PETITION

I. Maintain the ELO Cap. Having an upward limit on how much ELO people can amass prevents egregious forms of ELO Inflation which harm new users' ability to progress on the leaderboards.

1. bsh1
2. Lannan13
3. 9spaceking
4. Crypto
5. Harder
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.

II. Eliminate or Significantly Reduce the Instigator Advantage. ELO needs to be more of a zero-sum game, where my gain is directly equivalent to your loss, so that things balance out. When I can gain more that you lose, that promotes an unacceptable "ELO gap" and contributes to ELO inflation.

1. bsh1
2. Mikal
3. ShabShoral
4. lannan13
5. 9spaceking
6. Crypto
7. Harder
8.
9.
10.

III. Remove People who have been Inactive for 2+ Years from the Leaderboard. Users who have been gone for such extended periods of time are no longer members of the community, and the ELO boards are meant to reflect the community. Moreover, by removing these users, more space is freed up on the leaderboards for deserving, active users.

1. bsh1
2. 9spaceking
3. Crypto
4. Harder
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.

IV. Reduce the Impact of FREELO (Free ELO). When people with high ELOs beat people who have only been on the site a couple of months, the higher-ELO member should earn significantly less, if not zero, ELO. This reduces the motivation for the kind of excessive noob-sniping that often occurs on the site, but still allows noobs and experienced members to debate if they want to. Making FREELO less of an issue will also increase the accuracy and legitimacy of the ELO system itself.

1. bsh1
2. Mikal
3. ShabShoral
4. Lannan13
5. 9spaceking
6. Crypto
7. Harder
8.
9.
10.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

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: http://www.debate.org...

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TN05
Posts: 4,492
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5/4/2015 7:16:16 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/4/2015 6:21:48 PM, bsh1 wrote:
PETITION

I. Maintain the ELO Cap. Having an upward limit on how much ELO people can amass prevents egregious forms of ELO Inflation which harm new users' ability to progress on the leaderboards.

1. bsh1
2. Lannan13
3. 9spaceking
4. Crypto
5. Harder
6. TN05
7.
8.
9.
10.

II. Eliminate or Significantly Reduce the Instigator Advantage. ELO needs to be more of a zero-sum game, where my gain is directly equivalent to your loss, so that things balance out. When I can gain more that you lose, that promotes an unacceptable "ELO gap" and contributes to ELO inflation.

1. bsh1
2. Mikal
3. ShabShoral
4. lannan13
5. 9spaceking
6. Crypto
7. Harder
8. TN05
9.
10.

III. Remove People who have been Inactive for 2+ Years from the Leaderboard. Users who have been gone for such extended periods of time are no longer members of the community, and the ELO boards are meant to reflect the community. Moreover, by removing these users, more space is freed up on the leaderboards for deserving, active users.

1. bsh1
2. 9spaceking
3. Crypto
4. Harde r
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.

IV. Reduce the Impact of FREELO (Free ELO). When people with high ELOs beat people who have only been on the site a couple of months, the higher-ELO member should earn significantly less, if not zero, ELO. This reduces the motivation for the kind of excessive noob-sniping that often occurs on the site, but still allows noobs and experienced members to debate if they want to. Making FREELO less of an issue will also increase the accuracy and legitimacy of the ELO system itself.

1. bsh1
2. Mikal
3. ShabShoral
4. Lannan13
5. 9spaceking
6. Crypto
7. Harder
8. TN05
9.
10.
YYW
Posts: 36,364
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5/4/2015 7:20:14 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I. Maintain the ELO Cap. Having an upward limit on how much ELO people can amass prevents egregious forms of ELO Inflation which harm new users' ability to progress on the leaderboards.

1. bsh1
2. Lannan13
3. 9spaceking
4. Crypto
5. Harder
6. TN05
7. YYW
8.
9.
10.

II. Eliminate or Significantly Reduce the Instigator Advantage. ELO needs to be more of a zero-sum game, where my gain is directly equivalent to your loss, so that things balance out. When I can gain more that you lose, that promotes an unacceptable "ELO gap" and contributes to ELO inflation.

1. bsh1
2. Mikal
3. ShabShoral
4. lannan13
5. 9spaceking
6. Crypto
7. Harder
8. TN05
9. YYW
10.

III. Remove People who have been Inactive for 2+ Years from the Leaderboard. Users who have been gone for such extended periods of time are no longer members of the community, and the ELO boards are meant to reflect the community. Moreover, by removing these users, more space is freed up on the leaderboards for deserving, active users.

1. bsh1
2. 9spaceking
3. Crypto
4. Harde r
5. YYW
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.

IV. Reduce the Impact of FREELO (Free ELO). When people with high ELOs beat people who have only been on the site a couple of months, the higher-ELO member should earn significantly less, if not zero, ELO. This reduces the motivation for the kind of excessive noob-sniping that often occurs on the site, but still allows noobs and experienced members to debate if they want to. Making FREELO less of an issue will also increase the accuracy and legitimacy of the ELO system itself.

1. bsh1
2. Mikal
3. ShabShoral
4. Lannan13
5. 9spaceking
6. Crypto
7. Harder
8. TN05
9.
10.

This is misplaced because the way elo works is to calculate the relative weight of beating one person over another, in the aggregate. There is no free elo; it's just that the calculation adjusts to reflect the comparative significance of beating another.
Tsar of DDO
bsh1
Posts: 27,504
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5/4/2015 7:37:00 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/4/2015 7:20:14 PM, YYW wrote:
IV. Reduce the Impact of FREELO (Free ELO). When people with high ELOs beat people who have only been on the site a couple of months, the higher-ELO member should earn significantly less, if not zero, ELO. This reduces the motivation for the kind of excessive noob-sniping that often occurs on the site, but still allows noobs and experienced members to debate if they want to. Making FREELO less of an issue will also increase the accuracy and legitimacy of the ELO system itself.

This is misplaced because the way elo works is to calculate the relative weight of beating one person over another, in the aggregate. There is no free elo; it's just that the calculation adjusts to reflect the comparative significance of beating another.

Read FT's post on my initial thread (post 20). The problem is that the current calculation doesn't do enough to accurately reflect the relative weight of beating a noob. So yes, FREELO does exist.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

Follow the DDOlympics
: http://www.debate.org...

Open Debate Topics Project: http://www.debate.org...
YYW
Posts: 36,364
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5/4/2015 7:44:05 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/4/2015 7:37:00 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 5/4/2015 7:20:14 PM, YYW wrote:
IV. Reduce the Impact of FREELO (Free ELO). When people with high ELOs beat people who have only been on the site a couple of months, the higher-ELO member should earn significantly less, if not zero, ELO. This reduces the motivation for the kind of excessive noob-sniping that often occurs on the site, but still allows noobs and experienced members to debate if they want to. Making FREELO less of an issue will also increase the accuracy and legitimacy of the ELO system itself.

This is misplaced because the way elo works is to calculate the relative weight of beating one person over another, in the aggregate. There is no free elo; it's just that the calculation adjusts to reflect the comparative significance of beating another.

Read FT's post on my initial thread (post 20). The problem is that the current calculation doesn't do enough to accurately reflect the relative weight of beating a noob. So yes, FREELO does exist.

FT's thing.... @ post 20

I agree it's tough to gain Elo unless you're noob-sniping, and that's a large part of why I stopped trying to gain Elo. I remember when I first joined I actually cared about trying to win all my debates, and my record was better then even though voting sucked way worse, but then I stopped caring when I realized how hard it would be to get up the ranks doing serious debates (especially since back-and-forth against the top debaters, so raising Elo was really slow). And if I feel this way, I can only imagine what folks who just joined the site feel like, since I've had 3 years to slowly get 4000 Elo... So I totally agree something should be done to help make the Elo board something that newer members can actually move up in quickly, based on their debating ability.

I think one thing is changing how much Elo you gain from noob-sniping. If you have 4000 Elo and debate a noob with 2000 Elo, you should only get 1 Elo, not 20 Elo, and the noob should only lose 1 Elo. Or if it's reversed, the lower Elo guy should gain like 50 if he beats someone double his Elo, and the guy double his Elo should lose 50. For some reason the system's designed so that I could debate a noob and gain 20 Elo, and that's what promotes noob-sniping. I think that's the biggest thing that could help new members gain Elo quicker, and it's also a good way to keep players from noob-sniping, since it makes the risk of losing higher while taking away the benefits.

That doesn't really talk about free-ELO...

Again, free-elo doesn't exist; it's that the algorithm takes into account how good everyone is at a particular time.

It appears like people are getting an un-earned merit because, for example, people's elo can creep up as people they beat won, for example.

But, elo can (and often does) drop when people you beat lose because beating them means less after they lost.

It just depends on how people do over time.
Tsar of DDO
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,251
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5/4/2015 7:45:59 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I. Maintain the ELO Cap. Having an upward limit on how much ELO people can amass prevents egregious forms of ELO Inflation which harm new users' ability to progress on the leaderboards.

1. bsh1
2. Lannan13
3. 9spaceking
4. Crypto
5. Harder
6. TN05
7. YYW
8.
9.
10.

II. Eliminate or Significantly Reduce the Instigator Advantage. ELO needs to be more of a zero-sum game, where my gain is directly equivalent to your loss, so that things balance out. When I can gain more that you lose, that promotes an unacceptable "ELO gap" and contributes to ELO inflation.

1. bsh1
2. Mikal
3. ShabShoral
4. lannan13
5. 9spaceking
6. Crypto
7. Harder
8. TN05
9. YYW
10. dylancatlow

III. Remove People who have been Inactive for 2+ Years from the Leaderboard. Users who have been gone for such extended periods of time are no longer members of the community, and the ELO boards are meant to reflect the community. Moreover, by removing these users, more space is freed up on the leaderboards for deserving, active users.

1. bsh1
2. 9spaceking
3. Crypto
4. Harde r
5. YYW
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.

IV. Reduce the Impact of FREELO (Free ELO). When people with high ELOs beat people who have only been on the site a couple of months, the higher-ELO member should earn significantly less, if not zero, ELO. This reduces the motivation for the kind of excessive noob-sniping that often occurs on the site, but still allows noobs and experienced members to debate if they want to. Making FREELO less of an issue will also increase the accuracy and legitimacy of the ELO system itself.

1. bsh1
2. Mikal
3. ShabShoral
4. Lannan13
5. 9spaceking
6. Crypto
7. Harder
8. TN05
9. dylancatlow
10.

This is misplaced because the way elo works is to calculate the relative weight of beating one person over another, in the aggregate. There is no free elo; it's just that the calculation adjusts to reflect the comparative significance of beating another.