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The truth about the mobile update

bluesteel
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5/4/2015 2:51:05 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
As Juggle told Ore_Ele, Google is soon implementing a change in how they rank websites, termed "Mobile geddon." If your website doesn't have optimization for mobile, it gets dropped in the rankings.

However, "optimization" for Google pretty much just means that the column width is changed to fit a mobile screen. Google's algorithm doesn't care if you've basically made it impossible to reach the forums (i.e. by shoving the navigation bar into a corner at the bottom of the page). It doesn't check for user experience, just that there *is* a mobile version.

I did some research on Juggle awhile ago and they specialize at stuff like SEO optimization. They tweaked the site just enough so it passes Google's requirements. You can see here: https://www.google.com...

^That's the website developers can use to check if their site is mobile-friendly according to Google's algorithm. Despite all of us knowing that the mobile site is essentially unusable, Google ranks it as "mobile friendly." And that's all Juggle cares about.

What can you do? Well you could report SEO abuse to Google. Juggle has abused SEO in at least two ways that I know of. (1) The mobile update has trashed the user experience. It was designed strategically solely to pass Google's mobile test, but they eliminated *basic* functionality to make the column width fit. They basically nerfed the site to optimize for SEO. (2) This second one is *definitely* spamming, in violation of Google SEO policy, and if Juggle got caught, DDO would be massively dropped in the rankings. Juggle maintains a spam database that you can't even navigate to from the main page and they call it a "reference" section. You can see an example of a spam entry here: http://www.debate.org...

Juggle claims the reference site is to help with debate research. There's no reason I'd ever need to know the product number of the Loungefly Eiffel Tower Luggage Tag for my debate research. This is blatant SEO spamming.

I don't think any of us cared when Juggle's SEO optimization didn't affect us. But with the mobile site it does.

Where can you report SEO abuse? Here: https://support.google.com...
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)
mishapqueen
Posts: 3,995
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5/4/2015 3:08:33 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/4/2015 2:51:05 PM, bluesteel wrote:
As Juggle told Ore_Ele, Google is soon implementing a change in how they rank websites, termed "Mobile geddon." If your website doesn't have optimization for mobile, it gets dropped in the rankings.

However, "optimization" for Google pretty much just means that the column width is changed to fit a mobile screen. Google's algorithm doesn't care if you've basically made it impossible to reach the forums (i.e. by shoving the navigation bar into a corner at the bottom of the page). It doesn't check for user experience, just that there *is* a mobile version.

I did some research on Juggle awhile ago and they specialize at stuff like SEO optimization. They tweaked the site just enough so it passes Google's requirements. You can see here: https://www.google.com...

^That's the website developers can use to check if their site is mobile-friendly according to Google's algorithm. Despite all of us knowing that the mobile site is essentially unusable, Google ranks it as "mobile friendly." And that's all Juggle cares about.

What can you do? Well you could report SEO abuse to Google. Juggle has abused SEO in at least two ways that I know of. (1) The mobile update has trashed the user experience. It was designed strategically solely to pass Google's mobile test, but they eliminated *basic* functionality to make the column width fit. They basically nerfed the site to optimize for SEO. (2) This second one is *definitely* spamming, in violation of Google SEO policy, and if Juggle got caught, DDO would be massively dropped in the rankings. Juggle maintains a spam database that you can't even navigate to from the main page and they call it a "reference" section. You can see an example of a spam entry here: http://www.debate.org...

Juggle claims the reference site is to help with debate research. There's no reason I'd ever need to know the product number of the Loungefly Eiffel Tower Luggage Tag for my debate research. This is blatant SEO spamming.

I don't think any of us cared when Juggle's SEO optimization didn't affect us. But with the mobile site it does.

Where can you report SEO abuse? Here: https://support.google.com...

I want to report it, but I can't figure out which buttons to push. XD
You cannot choose whether or not you will live by rules, but you can choose which rules you will live by. --Me

"I was wrong. Squirrels are objectively superior to bunnies in every conceivable dimension."
--Joey

"Silence is golden, duct tape is silver" --PetersSmith

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bluesteel
Posts: 12,301
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5/4/2015 3:11:21 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/4/2015 3:08:33 PM, mishapqueen wrote:
At 5/4/2015 2:51:05 PM, bluesteel wrote:
As Juggle told Ore_Ele, Google is soon implementing a change in how they rank websites, termed "Mobile geddon." If your website doesn't have optimization for mobile, it gets dropped in the rankings.

However, "optimization" for Google pretty much just means that the column width is changed to fit a mobile screen. Google's algorithm doesn't care if you've basically made it impossible to reach the forums (i.e. by shoving the navigation bar into a corner at the bottom of the page). It doesn't check for user experience, just that there *is* a mobile version.

I did some research on Juggle awhile ago and they specialize at stuff like SEO optimization. They tweaked the site just enough so it passes Google's requirements. You can see here: https://www.google.com...

^That's the website developers can use to check if their site is mobile-friendly according to Google's algorithm. Despite all of us knowing that the mobile site is essentially unusable, Google ranks it as "mobile friendly." And that's all Juggle cares about.

What can you do? Well you could report SEO abuse to Google. Juggle has abused SEO in at least two ways that I know of. (1) The mobile update has trashed the user experience. It was designed strategically solely to pass Google's mobile test, but they eliminated *basic* functionality to make the column width fit. They basically nerfed the site to optimize for SEO. (2) This second one is *definitely* spamming, in violation of Google SEO policy, and if Juggle got caught, DDO would be massively dropped in the rankings. Juggle maintains a spam database that you can't even navigate to from the main page and they call it a "reference" section. You can see an example of a spam entry here: http://www.debate.org...

Juggle claims the reference site is to help with debate research. There's no reason I'd ever need to know the product number of the Loungefly Eiffel Tower Luggage Tag for my debate research. This is blatant SEO spamming.

I don't think any of us cared when Juggle's SEO optimization didn't affect us. But with the mobile site it does.

Where can you report SEO abuse? Here: https://support.google.com...

I want to report it, but I can't figure out which buttons to push. XD

This link: https://www.google.com...

You have to sign in to Google to report them.
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)
mishapqueen
Posts: 3,995
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5/4/2015 3:12:56 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/4/2015 3:11:21 PM, bluesteel wrote:
At 5/4/2015 3:08:33 PM, mishapqueen wrote:
At 5/4/2015 2:51:05 PM, bluesteel wrote:
As Juggle told Ore_Ele, Google is soon implementing a change in how they rank websites, termed "Mobile geddon." If your website doesn't have optimization for mobile, it gets dropped in the rankings.

However, "optimization" for Google pretty much just means that the column width is changed to fit a mobile screen. Google's algorithm doesn't care if you've basically made it impossible to reach the forums (i.e. by shoving the navigation bar into a corner at the bottom of the page). It doesn't check for user experience, just that there *is* a mobile version.

I did some research on Juggle awhile ago and they specialize at stuff like SEO optimization. They tweaked the site just enough so it passes Google's requirements. You can see here: https://www.google.com...

^That's the website developers can use to check if their site is mobile-friendly according to Google's algorithm. Despite all of us knowing that the mobile site is essentially unusable, Google ranks it as "mobile friendly." And that's all Juggle cares about.

What can you do? Well you could report SEO abuse to Google. Juggle has abused SEO in at least two ways that I know of. (1) The mobile update has trashed the user experience. It was designed strategically solely to pass Google's mobile test, but they eliminated *basic* functionality to make the column width fit. They basically nerfed the site to optimize for SEO. (2) This second one is *definitely* spamming, in violation of Google SEO policy, and if Juggle got caught, DDO would be massively dropped in the rankings. Juggle maintains a spam database that you can't even navigate to from the main page and they call it a "reference" section. You can see an example of a spam entry here: http://www.debate.org...

Juggle claims the reference site is to help with debate research. There's no reason I'd ever need to know the product number of the Loungefly Eiffel Tower Luggage Tag for my debate research. This is blatant SEO spamming.

I don't think any of us cared when Juggle's SEO optimization didn't affect us. But with the mobile site it does.

Where can you report SEO abuse? Here: https://support.google.com...

I want to report it, but I can't figure out which buttons to push. XD

This link: https://www.google.com...

You have to sign in to Google to report them.

Okay, I'll try it
You cannot choose whether or not you will live by rules, but you can choose which rules you will live by. --Me

"I was wrong. Squirrels are objectively superior to bunnies in every conceivable dimension."
--Joey

"Silence is golden, duct tape is silver" --PetersSmith

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1harderthanyouthink
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5/4/2015 3:14:20 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
If we report SEO abuse, that may be problematic for us, too.
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

-Syd Barrett

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Geogeer
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5/4/2015 3:16:26 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/4/2015 2:51:05 PM, bluesteel wrote:
As Juggle told Ore_Ele, Google is soon implementing a change in how they rank websites, termed "Mobile geddon." If your website doesn't have optimization for mobile, it gets dropped in the rankings.

However, "optimization" for Google pretty much just means that the column width is changed to fit a mobile screen. Google's algorithm doesn't care if you've basically made it impossible to reach the forums (i.e. by shoving the navigation bar into a corner at the bottom of the page). It doesn't check for user experience, just that there *is* a mobile version.

I did some research on Juggle awhile ago and they specialize at stuff like SEO optimization. They tweaked the site just enough so it passes Google's requirements. You can see here: https://www.google.com...

^That's the website developers can use to check if their site is mobile-friendly according to Google's algorithm. Despite all of us knowing that the mobile site is essentially unusable, Google ranks it as "mobile friendly." And that's all Juggle cares about.

Well partly. They are eager to make sure that they do not get initially delisted. That does not mean that they do not care about the usability, but rather they had to make hasty alterations to be in compliance. They have informed us through Ore_Ele that they intend to rectify the situation. So I would cut them a little slack.

How do we know this is true? In their haste to make the site mobile compliant they have axed the advertising on the site. So Juggle is currently running the site for no profit. I think it is fair to assume that they would like this site to generate them some form of remuneration. Thus they must still be working on the code.

Thus while it is currently a pain in the butt while on your mobile device I believe that Juggle is working to return the mobile layout to a more fully functional use.
bluesteel
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5/4/2015 3:16:58 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
To reiterate, the two mains issues if you do report it:

(1) The mobile update nerfed the site's functionality. Google should be aware that their algorithm encourages this. Any human using the mobile site could tell you pretty quickly that it's unusable.

(2) The DDO reference section is blatant spamming (see, e.g., http://www.debate.org...)
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)
1harderthanyouthink
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5/4/2015 3:17:44 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I brought this up in my petition thread, but I'm skeptical about the benefit of outright reporting them - which is why a few members and I were planning on sending Juggle a little note about this sort of thing. They might change it if we hold it against them without reporting it.
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

-Syd Barrett

DDO Risk King
bluesteel
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5/4/2015 3:22:48 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/4/2015 3:16:26 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/4/2015 2:51:05 PM, bluesteel wrote:
As Juggle told Ore_Ele, Google is soon implementing a change in how they rank websites, termed "Mobile geddon." If your website doesn't have optimization for mobile, it gets dropped in the rankings.

However, "optimization" for Google pretty much just means that the column width is changed to fit a mobile screen. Google's algorithm doesn't care if you've basically made it impossible to reach the forums (i.e. by shoving the navigation bar into a corner at the bottom of the page). It doesn't check for user experience, just that there *is* a mobile version.

I did some research on Juggle awhile ago and they specialize at stuff like SEO optimization. They tweaked the site just enough so it passes Google's requirements. You can see here: https://www.google.com...

^That's the website developers can use to check if their site is mobile-friendly according to Google's algorithm. Despite all of us knowing that the mobile site is essentially unusable, Google ranks it as "mobile friendly." And that's all Juggle cares about.

Well partly. They are eager to make sure that they do not get initially delisted. That does not mean that they do not care about the usability, but rather they had to make hasty alterations to be in compliance. They have informed us through Ore_Ele that they intend to rectify the situation. So I would cut them a little slack.

How do we know this is true? In their haste to make the site mobile compliant they have axed the advertising on the site. So Juggle is currently running the site for no profit. I think it is fair to assume that they would like this site to generate them some form of remuneration. Thus they must still be working on the code.

Thus while it is currently a pain in the butt while on your mobile device I believe that Juggle is working to return the mobile layout to a more fully functional use.

Your evidence of this is Ore_Ele taking the initiative to email them. They didn't even bother communicating with the site directly or take the initiative to solicit feedback.

I suspect they don't care about mobile at all, just the SEO ranking, which makes the site more valuable when they try to sell it.
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)
1harderthanyouthink
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5/4/2015 3:26:44 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/4/2015 3:17:44 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
I brought this up in my petition thread

At least, the reference page SEO abuse.

but I'm skeptical about the benefit of outright reporting them - which is why a few members and I were planning on sending Juggle a little note about this sort of thing. They might change it if we hold it against them without reporting it.
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

-Syd Barrett

DDO Risk King
Geogeer
Posts: 4,274
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5/4/2015 3:31:39 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/4/2015 3:22:48 PM, bluesteel wrote:
At 5/4/2015 3:16:26 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/4/2015 2:51:05 PM, bluesteel wrote:
As Juggle told Ore_Ele, Google is soon implementing a change in how they rank websites, termed "Mobile geddon." If your website doesn't have optimization for mobile, it gets dropped in the rankings.

However, "optimization" for Google pretty much just means that the column width is changed to fit a mobile screen. Google's algorithm doesn't care if you've basically made it impossible to reach the forums (i.e. by shoving the navigation bar into a corner at the bottom of the page). It doesn't check for user experience, just that there *is* a mobile version.

I did some research on Juggle awhile ago and they specialize at stuff like SEO optimization. They tweaked the site just enough so it passes Google's requirements. You can see here: https://www.google.com...

^That's the website developers can use to check if their site is mobile-friendly according to Google's algorithm. Despite all of us knowing that the mobile site is essentially unusable, Google ranks it as "mobile friendly." And that's all Juggle cares about.

Well partly. They are eager to make sure that they do not get initially delisted. That does not mean that they do not care about the usability, but rather they had to make hasty alterations to be in compliance. They have informed us through Ore_Ele that they intend to rectify the situation. So I would cut them a little slack.

How do we know this is true? In their haste to make the site mobile compliant they have axed the advertising on the site. So Juggle is currently running the site for no profit. I think it is fair to assume that they would like this site to generate them some form of remuneration. Thus they must still be working on the code.

Thus while it is currently a pain in the butt while on your mobile device I believe that Juggle is working to return the mobile layout to a more fully functional use.

Your evidence of this is Ore_Ele taking the initiative to email them. They didn't even bother communicating with the site directly or take the initiative to solicit feedback.

Not being pro-active is not necessarily a sign of no interest. Perhaps the owners never realized the effect of the programmer's decisions.

I suspect they don't care about mobile at all, just the SEO ranking, which makes the site more valuable when they try to sell it.

If the site loses traffic it is inherently less valuable when they go to sell it. It is in their self interest to have a high volume site both for advertising revenue and for value upon sale. Since a larger and larger percentage of people use mobile to access the site it will have a significant deleterious effect upon the value of their investment.

Note: it is a major pain in the butt and I almost exclusively visit the site on my desktop now. However, things like this happen in business and there can be periods when you have to kludge something until you can get it properly fixed.
bluesteel
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5/4/2015 3:31:58 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/4/2015 3:14:20 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
If we report SEO abuse, that may be problematic for us, too.

How does it affect me? I navigate to the site by typing in the URL. The page rank only affects how often Juggle's site gets viewed by non-regular members, i.e. people who search "death penalty" and one of Roy's debates pops up.

Sure, maybe it will slow the flow of new members. Not the end of the world for me. Much bigger deal for Juggle.

Honestly, imagine if Facebook did this (i.e. pulled all its staff off the site for over a year, nerfed the site functionality to comply with mobile, and didn't even communicate the changes to its userbase). People would be pissed. I don't see why anyone would think it's acceptable for Juggle to treat this site as an SEO investment rather than caring about user experience.
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)
Geogeer
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5/4/2015 3:36:54 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/4/2015 3:33:20 PM, Mirza wrote:
You may want to use this, Sirs and Ma'ams: https://adblockplus.org...

It doesn't matter right now. There are no adds on this site.
1harderthanyouthink
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5/4/2015 3:37:03 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/4/2015 3:31:58 PM, bluesteel wrote:
At 5/4/2015 3:14:20 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
If we report SEO abuse, that may be problematic for us, too.

How does it affect me? I navigate to the site by typing in the URL. The page rank only affects how often Juggle's site gets viewed by non-regular members, i.e. people who search "death penalty" and one of Roy's debates pops up.

Sure, maybe it will slow the flow of new members. Not the end of the world for me. Much bigger deal for Juggle.

It's a very big deal for you, because members who may positively contribute wouldn't see the site. It would contribute to a decline in those people.

Honestly, imagine if Facebook did this (i.e. pulled all its staff off the site for over a year, nerfed the site functionality to comply with mobile, and didn't even communicate the changes to its userbase). People would be pissed. I don't see why anyone would think it's acceptable for Juggle to treat this site as an SEO investment rather than caring about user experience.

I am pissed, but I would rather give them a chance to fix it while holding this over their head.
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

-Syd Barrett

DDO Risk King
1harderthanyouthink
Posts: 13,102
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5/4/2015 3:51:22 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/4/2015 3:37:03 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 5/4/2015 3:31:58 PM, bluesteel wrote:
At 5/4/2015 3:14:20 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
If we report SEO abuse, that may be problematic for us, too.

How does it affect me? I navigate to the site by typing in the URL. The page rank only affects how often Juggle's site gets viewed by non-regular members, i.e. people who search "death penalty" and one of Roy's debates pops up.

Sure, maybe it will slow the flow of new members. Not the end of the world for me. Much bigger deal for Juggle.

It's a very big deal for you, because members who may positively contribute wouldn't see the site. It would contribute to a decline in those people.

Honestly, imagine if Facebook did this (i.e. pulled all its staff off the site for over a year, nerfed the site functionality to comply with mobile, and didn't even communicate the changes to its userbase). People would be pissed. I don't see why anyone would think it's acceptable for Juggle to treat this site as an SEO investment rather than caring about user experience.

I am pissed, but I would rather give them a chance to fix it while holding this over their head.
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

-Syd Barrett

DDO Risk King
1harderthanyouthink
Posts: 13,102
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5/4/2015 3:53:37 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I hit "add post" out of habit when changing my sig. :/
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

-Syd Barrett

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bluesteel
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5/4/2015 3:56:42 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/4/2015 3:37:03 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 5/4/2015 3:31:58 PM, bluesteel wrote:
At 5/4/2015 3:14:20 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
If we report SEO abuse, that may be problematic for us, too.

How does it affect me? I navigate to the site by typing in the URL. The page rank only affects how often Juggle's site gets viewed by non-regular members, i.e. people who search "death penalty" and one of Roy's debates pops up.

Sure, maybe it will slow the flow of new members. Not the end of the world for me. Much bigger deal for Juggle.

It's a very big deal for you, because members who may positively contribute wouldn't see the site. It would contribute to a decline in those people.

Honestly, imagine if Facebook did this (i.e. pulled all its staff off the site for over a year, nerfed the site functionality to comply with mobile, and didn't even communicate the changes to its userbase). People would be pissed. I don't see why anyone would think it's acceptable for Juggle to treat this site as an SEO investment rather than caring about user experience.

I am pissed, but I would rather give them a chance to fix it while holding this over their head.

Never said to hold it over their head. If it pisses you off that they are abusing the SEO system, report them. If you don't want to see them reported, don't.
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)
1harderthanyouthink
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5/4/2015 3:57:49 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/4/2015 3:56:42 PM, bluesteel wrote:
At 5/4/2015 3:37:03 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 5/4/2015 3:31:58 PM, bluesteel wrote:
At 5/4/2015 3:14:20 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
If we report SEO abuse, that may be problematic for us, too.

How does it affect me? I navigate to the site by typing in the URL. The page rank only affects how often Juggle's site gets viewed by non-regular members, i.e. people who search "death penalty" and one of Roy's debates pops up.

Sure, maybe it will slow the flow of new members. Not the end of the world for me. Much bigger deal for Juggle.

It's a very big deal for you, because members who may positively contribute wouldn't see the site. It would contribute to a decline in those people.

Honestly, imagine if Facebook did this (i.e. pulled all its staff off the site for over a year, nerfed the site functionality to comply with mobile, and didn't even communicate the changes to its userbase). People would be pissed. I don't see why anyone would think it's acceptable for Juggle to treat this site as an SEO investment rather than caring about user experience.

I am pissed, but I would rather give them a chance to fix it while holding this over their head.

Never said to hold it over their head. If it pisses you off that they are abusing the SEO system, report them. If you don't want to see them reported, don't.

My idea is that we should use this to get Juggle to make a legitimate update.
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

-Syd Barrett

DDO Risk King
1harderthanyouthink
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5/4/2015 4:05:55 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
As you said in the past, we have the leverage - so why not use it before resorting to outright reporting?
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

-Syd Barrett

DDO Risk King
TUF
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5/4/2015 4:59:24 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I wonder if Juggle has seen any of this. If they have I hope they are working on a solution, otherwise this could mean trouble for them.
"I've got to go and grab a shirt" ~ Airmax1227
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
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5/4/2015 6:54:46 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I don't know how reporting Juggle will benefit anyone though. It may impede the collaborative communication between Juggle and the memberbase. We're the ones that are using this site. We owe Juggle. The only money they are making is from advertisements. There is no membership fee. We don't pay anything.
YYW
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5/4/2015 7:01:13 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/4/2015 6:54:46 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
I don't know how reporting Juggle will benefit anyone though. It may impede the collaborative communication between Juggle and the memberbase. We're the ones that are using this site. We owe Juggle. The only money they are making is from advertisements. There is no membership fee. We don't pay anything.

Actually, we don't owe juggle. The value of this site stems from ad revenue that our presence here generates. Said another way, we are the cause of their making money.

In that we are the cause of their making money, there are certain priorities they need to undertake to make sure that we -their source of revenue- are not peeved because they're trying to game the system.

The problem in what Bluesteel is saying is that he's assuming that they aren't incompetent; that Juggle intentionally did the mobile update as they did it with the precise reason to artificially boost their status. That's a possibility, but it's just as possible as the other explanation... Juggle's techies are just dumb.

One of the old cannons of interpreting behavior says that where incompetence and malice are equally possible absent other considerations, incompetence is usually the cause.

I'm going with incompetence here... but at the same time, reporting Juggle to Google might make it more likely that they fix the problem... or it might just irritate them so that they do nothing.

One way or another, I think the more reasonable thing to do is to just talk to Juggle and see how long it's going to take to fix the problem. There are many problems, but there's no need to tattle to big brother (read: google) where what we want is for Juggle to do something, not for Google to do something.
Tsar of DDO
YYW
Posts: 36,303
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5/4/2015 7:08:06 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/4/2015 3:31:58 PM, bluesteel wrote:
At 5/4/2015 3:14:20 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
If we report SEO abuse, that may be problematic for us, too.

How does it affect me? I navigate to the site by typing in the URL. The page rank only affects how often Juggle's site gets viewed by non-regular members, i.e. people who search "death penalty" and one of Roy's debates pops up.

Sure, maybe it will slow the flow of new members. Not the end of the world for me. Much bigger deal for Juggle.

Honestly, imagine if Facebook did this (i.e. pulled all its staff off the site for over a year, nerfed the site functionality to comply with mobile, and didn't even communicate the changes to its userbase). People would be pissed. I don't see why anyone would think it's acceptable for Juggle to treat this site as an SEO investment rather than caring about user experience.

Facebook, even though it's not perfect, is a model tech company. It's updates are more or less seamlessly incorporated, and it's constantly competing both for market share and to maintain users.

Juggle should be doing that... but the difference between Juggle and Facebook is that Facebook's focus is on one product, whereas Juggle has a whole bunch of products it's trying to improve with scarcer resources than Facebook.... like much scarcer. Facebook is worth more than a billion dollars.... Juggle's worth is practically insignificant compared to that, and they're trying to do more stuff with less resources anyway... which might be one reason why their updates reflect a certain level of what can only be described as incompetence.
Tsar of DDO
bluesteel
Posts: 12,301
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5/4/2015 7:21:16 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/4/2015 7:08:06 PM, YYW wrote:
At 5/4/2015 3:31:58 PM, bluesteel wrote:
At 5/4/2015 3:14:20 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
If we report SEO abuse, that may be problematic for us, too.

How does it affect me? I navigate to the site by typing in the URL. The page rank only affects how often Juggle's site gets viewed by non-regular members, i.e. people who search "death penalty" and one of Roy's debates pops up.

Sure, maybe it will slow the flow of new members. Not the end of the world for me. Much bigger deal for Juggle.

Honestly, imagine if Facebook did this (i.e. pulled all its staff off the site for over a year, nerfed the site functionality to comply with mobile, and didn't even communicate the changes to its userbase). People would be pissed. I don't see why anyone would think it's acceptable for Juggle to treat this site as an SEO investment rather than caring about user experience.

Facebook, even though it's not perfect, is a model tech company. It's updates are more or less seamlessly incorporated, and it's constantly competing both for market share and to maintain users.

Juggle should be doing that... but the difference between Juggle and Facebook is that Facebook's focus is on one product, whereas Juggle has a whole bunch of products it's trying to improve with scarcer resources than Facebook.... like much scarcer. Facebook is worth more than a billion dollars.... Juggle's worth is practically insignificant compared to that, and they're trying to do more stuff with less resources anyway... which might be one reason why their updates reflect a certain level of what can only be described as incompetence.

Facebook when it first started was like... one guy. And yet it still had better customer service.

The one product vs. multiple is definitely true, although Facebook has Occulus now.

I get why they do what they do. As a user of their site, I don't have to like it. Or respect their decision not to provide reasonable services.
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)
YYW
Posts: 36,303
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5/4/2015 7:24:17 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/4/2015 7:21:16 PM, bluesteel wrote:
At 5/4/2015 7:08:06 PM, YYW wrote:
At 5/4/2015 3:31:58 PM, bluesteel wrote:
At 5/4/2015 3:14:20 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
If we report SEO abuse, that may be problematic for us, too.

How does it affect me? I navigate to the site by typing in the URL. The page rank only affects how often Juggle's site gets viewed by non-regular members, i.e. people who search "death penalty" and one of Roy's debates pops up.

Sure, maybe it will slow the flow of new members. Not the end of the world for me. Much bigger deal for Juggle.

Honestly, imagine if Facebook did this (i.e. pulled all its staff off the site for over a year, nerfed the site functionality to comply with mobile, and didn't even communicate the changes to its userbase). People would be pissed. I don't see why anyone would think it's acceptable for Juggle to treat this site as an SEO investment rather than caring about user experience.

Facebook, even though it's not perfect, is a model tech company. It's updates are more or less seamlessly incorporated, and it's constantly competing both for market share and to maintain users.

Juggle should be doing that... but the difference between Juggle and Facebook is that Facebook's focus is on one product, whereas Juggle has a whole bunch of products it's trying to improve with scarcer resources than Facebook.... like much scarcer. Facebook is worth more than a billion dollars.... Juggle's worth is practically insignificant compared to that, and they're trying to do more stuff with less resources anyway... which might be one reason why their updates reflect a certain level of what can only be described as incompetence.

Facebook when it first started was like... one guy. And yet it still had better customer service.

Yeah, but we're not talking about Facebook when it started; we're talking about Facebook, as it exists now... or at least that's the most reasonable interpretation in light of the context of your post.

The one product vs. multiple is definitely true, although Facebook has Occulus now.

I don't know what Occulus is... and generally, I'm not a tech-ie person. What I know, I know because I have computer nerd friends...

I get why they do what they do. As a user of their site, I don't have to like it. Or respect their decision not to provide reasonable services.

I don't like what they're doing either... but the point is that incompetence is really what's going on here... at least most probably... and I see almost no utility in reporting Juggle to Google.
Tsar of DDO
TN05
Posts: 4,492
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5/4/2015 7:49:31 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Juggle is not incompetent from what I can tell. Debate.org's polls are actually cited somewhat regularly on actual news outlets... Take a look here:

https://www.google.com...

Now, the claim they make on the reference page that thousands of people use DDO Reference is absurd. But they have gotten fairly decent media attention.
tejretics
Posts: 6,089
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5/6/2015 12:35:02 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/4/2015 7:49:31 PM, TN05 wrote:
Juggle is not incompetent from what I can tell. Debate.org's polls are actually cited somewhat regularly on actual news outlets... Take a look here:

https://www.google.com...

Now, the claim they make on the reference page that thousands of people use DDO Reference is absurd. But they have gotten fairly decent media attention.

Wow, that was interesting lol
"Where justice is denied, where poverty is enforced, where ignorance prevails, and where any one class is made to feel that society is an organized conspiracy to oppress, rob and degrade them, neither persons nor property will be safe." - Frederick Douglass